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Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:05:00 -
[1]
Me, I'm pretty much thinking of just starting a new character and playing something else to start over. While in character, I've tried to play a progressive Amarr character, around the PF I've read. But between Emperyaen Age, and Theodicy, well it just seems that official canon is that there are no decent or good Amarrians in the Empire. The only Amarrians you ever see in either story with any sense of humanity is a guy who is basically tortured into being so, and a clone with no memory that grows to detest the Amarr. I remember when I first started playing Eve that one description I found of the Amarr mentioned that their religion had been responsible for both great acts of good and evil. I have however not found one single bit of PF that has ever backed this statement up in regard to the good. And the novel has pretty much made that seem an impossible statement.
I've always tried to give Eve back story credit for being intelligent in that it presents a much deeper then most MMORPGs setting, with a focus toward the human condition given the technology and circumstances of life in New Eden. I held the view that under the evils of Amarrian government, the citizens were just ordinary people, as much victims of their rulers as anyone else. Which is what it seems Chronicles like The Speaker of Truths was looking to suggest. But with how Factional Warfare has been handled in regards to PF, and the RP community, it seems to have taken a disappointing and simplistic turn, and that depth which was there has evaporated. Instead we are now left with just a simple divide between the 'good guy' playable races, and the 'bad guy' ones. Instead of RP, it feels more like two bugs in a jar that some kid is shaking in hopes to make them fight.
Maybe I am just in a cynical mood, or focusing on certain aspects too much. Any one else have a view on it to share?
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"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.) |
Sepherim
Amarr
Ordo Quaesitoris
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Posted - 2008.07.21 23:10:00 -
[2]
You are right, from A to Z. The novel is based on archetypes, and the obvious ones for the Amarr are the cruel, the powerhungry, and the fanatic. They all appear often enough. And yes, good races and bad ones are pretty obvious too, Minmatarr fight for freedom in spite of the risks, and the Gallente attempt everything possible in order to obtain a peace in front of a fanatic enemy. Still, some lights are portrayed over the Caldari (none over the Amarr IMO) with Otro Gariushi at its head, so they stay grey, and some shadows are portrayed over the Elders in the risk of so many and the non-democratic path they chose.
No shadows are portrayed over Karin Midular or the Fed President, as they are pure beacons of democracy and peace.
But EVE isn't only the novel and the chronicles, EVE is also the game, and there you can find all kinds of amarrians and minmatarr, Gallente and Caldari. Yes, war is a pretty obvious two sided stand, but not all is reduced to that.
I'll go on playing my "progressive" Amarr in spite all that, at least.
Ordo Quaesitoris Forum |
Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 23:16:00 -
[3]
I think it partially depends upon which author you read. While I haven't read the Emperyaen Age (waiting for the US release) yet, the impression I get from other people's comments, and from reading his other work, is that Tony Gonzales seems not to like the Amarr very much, and has a habit of showing them in an unfavorable light. Other authors, I think, don't show them as being extremely worse than the other races. The just published chronicle All These Wayward Children is a good example of Amarr being shown as having good intentions, even if they show those good intentions in ways others don't think really great.
Regarding the ordinary people of the Empire being normal people just like everyone else, there is certainly PF that shows this to be the case, offhand I can think of the short story The Artifice Maker, I think there may be some chrons, too.
I have to admit that I'm a bit disapointed with some of how FW and the Amarr have been treated in some of the recent PF, I don't think I'd say it's become 'good guy/bad guy' quite yet. Of course, I say that before having read The Emperyaen Age, but while I very much enjoy reading TG's stuff, I've never let it get in the way of my RP -- he does take some artistic liciense with pre-existing PF, so I wouldn't quite treat his work as gospel, to be honest. Especially when it comes to Amarrians.
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This is not a signature. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 23:16:00 -
[4]
Perhaps you should read the latest chronicle
I actually got the impression that there WERE good Amarr in the book. Lady Sarum herself (or at least, half of her) for example. The main Amarr character (can't remember his name) would be another.
The thing is that the characters themselves (Karsoth being the obvious exception) were presented quite sympathetically, I thought. Where the Amarr were described as being universally monstrous, the opinion was generally being expressed by a former slave, or by someone with prejudice against them. Karsoth's evaluation of his own culture was coloured by the fact that he himself was a monster. The principle ammar character, and the majority of the minor Amarr characters, came across to me as honourable types torn three ways between duty to their faith, duty to their superiors, and duty to their moral code. Sometimes, those duties aligned. Other times they did not - just as in real life.
I do get the impression that TonyG likes to play favourites - only the Gallente were ever expressly portrayed in a positive light. Nevertheless, that's not reason enough to give up on the RP background you chose first time. The EVE universe isn't a world of saints, after all - it's a world where even the noblest character of the bunch (Otro Gariushi, in my opinion) has his flaws and prejudices. In fact, EVE is a far less enlightened place than our own modern culture. EVE is more like the Medieval ages, where petty squabbles between barons and kings could spark wars that dragged whole nations in, and where the notion of personal safety typically ended at the castle walls. By our modern standards, every race in the game is guilty of some very ugly character flaws indeed.
The Amarr just happen to be furthest from what is nowadays socially acceptable or "politically correct". That doesn't mean they're "evil" any more than say, Queen Mary I ("Bloody Mary") was - their culture's just so different from ours that what would seem like an atrocity to us wouldn't raise an eyebrow to them.
I myself play a character who's about as noble as it's possible to get in the context of this universe (I tend to play Lawful Good characters in DnD) and I constantly have to remember to add a layer of dirt to him, or else he just wouldn't fit in at all. EVE isn't a world of "good guys" - it's a world of antiheroes and bigots
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:00:00 -
[5]
I think you have a point, but it's valid to remember a lot of things with regards to the Amarrian society.
It's based heavily on classes and houses, where the rich tend to get ahead lot more than those whom aren't so well off. As well as that, it's legal to hold control over another individual, as a slave, which makes the control give Amarr society a sort of Draconian appearence overall, purely because of the way most people see slavery.
The people who tend to rise to the top are those whom are very zealous and almost extremist in the way they practice their religion, the fanatics who have almost an infatuation with spreading the word of the lord, and the influence of the Amarr Empire, gods chosen children.
I think that overall, this gives the Empire a naturally agressive appearence due to the sheer dedication of most of the leaders and prominent figures to their religion.
There's nothing to suggest that there aren't "nice amarrians", as their politics, society and workforce seems to be dominated by the slave trade and their imposing presence over the Matari people they hold on to.
I'm sure there are relatively nice amarrians out there, their story simply hasn't come forward yet because of the nature in which the Empire works, and what's seen in the public eye through the actions of their leadership.
There's nothing to stop you from playing the nice Amarrian, it just means you need to build bridges with those who have a dislike for the Empire.
If anything, I'd see it as more of a challenge, although I've played an Amarr alt in the past that was an Amarr Extremist, almost to the point of being a lunatic.
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Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:26:00 -
[6]
I see a lot of your guys points clearly. But I kind of think, having studied history, and looked at the systems of slavery and serfdom that have existed and still persist now, is that something we as players are injecting in as common sense? And the PR is actually trying to toss out?
For example, I'm thinking from stories like God Flesh, where we have a house slave, we assume that the slavery in Amarr is quite like colonial slavery, and some other earlier institutions of it. Where slaves are divided between the strong and resilient to work fields, and the more socially inclined to be house slaves. And from there we make the logical jump that slavery is so socially intertwined in Amarrian culture that those same odd social conventions exist, where a slave owner might view a trusted house slave as apart of, though not equal, member of his family. And earlier PF seemed to support this idea I think. At the very least, slaves where an investment, which one maintained if for no other reason then their wealth depended on it. And only the elite, large land holding class had them.
But more recent PF, namely Emperyaen Age, and Theodicy, seem to suggest that the slave situation is solely on the level of serfdom endured under the Czars of Russia, or the work camps of Stalin. Where slaves are simply worked to death in a meat grinder of human misery. And more so, that the Amarrians relish this and enjoy doing it to the Matari. That all their religious reasoning for it is pretty much a farce amongst their upper class as well, and that they do it simply because they can.
I am not trying to defend the practice of slavery in any shape way or form. But I do think it is a rather mature subject, which the PF seems to be fumbling a good deal with lately. Along with the notions of nationalism, racism, warfare and genocide. And it seems to me to be having an effect on the RP community for the worse, as it becomes, sorry to say this, WoW level simplistic morality between the various races. (I'm a dwarf so I kill orcs, I'm a Matari so I kill Amarr.)
But more so then anything, it seems to be painting the Amarr role-player into a corner. As he can not be a proud Amarrian, or even live in the Empire, for if he has a sense of decency and humanity, according to some PF of late, he is not Amarrian, but a heretic.
/
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.) |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.22 01:31:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Stitcher on 22/07/2008 01:33:45
 Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
I see a lot of your guys points clearly. But I kind of think, having studied history, and looked at the systems of slavery and serfdom that have existed and still persist now, is that something we as players are injecting in as common sense? And the PR is actually trying to toss out?
The PR is the page, the pen and the ink. It's up to the players to write the book.
Bear in mind, the Empire is home to multiple trillions of people. In a framework that massive, any variation on the theme goes. What's presented in the PF doesn't come even remotely close to representing every possible variation and extreme.
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earlier PF seemed to support this idea I think. At the very least, slaves where an investment, which one maintained if for no other reason then their wealth depended on it. And only the elite, large land holding class had them.
Nothing (yet) has denied that. I tend to think of Amarrian slavery as more along the lines of Roman slavery - even fairly poor people could afford maybe one slave to serve their family. Officers of the legions often got quite rich by selling conquered civilians as slaves after a campaign.
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more recent PF, namely Empyrean Age, and Theodicy, seem to suggest that the slave situation is ... [being] simply worked to death in a meat grinder of human misery. And more so, that the Amarrians relish this and enjoy doing it to the Matari. That all their religious reasoning for it is pretty much a farce amongst their upper class as well, and that they do it simply because they can.
And presumably, that's true for a sizable minority of cases. It wouldn't be true across the board, however.
I always wish people would apply a little more logic to these things. One of the common RP views on the Caldari State is "Citizens have no rights and no individuality". Horescrap - no society could possibly work that way for long. However, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that some of the real dead-ends of the State did function that way. The same goes for the empire - slaves generally won't be meat in a human grinder, because no real society could work that way. But that doesn't mean that horrific abuse of the slaves wouldn't happen, either.
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It seems to me to be having an effect on the RP community for the worse, as it becomes, sorry to say this, WoW level simplistic morality between the various races. (I'm a dwarf so I kill orcs, I'm a Matari so I kill Amarr.)
It's been like that from day one, though. "We come for our people!" anyone? In any given population of roleplayers, you will find a sizeable demographic whose idea of good RP is to personify all their chosen race's stereotypes. Now, to a degree that's accurate - people wouldn't have come up with the stereotype of the lager-guzzling British football hooligan if people like that didn't exist, for example - but it's not outstanding RP. It's average RP at best- some people just think the best characters are the loudest ones.
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But more so then anything, it seems to be painting the Amarr role-player into a corner. As he can not be a proud Amarrian, or even live in the Empire, for if he has a sense of decency and humanity, according to some PF of late, he is not Amarrian, but a heretic.
It ain't terribly easy being a Caldari with a conscience right now, either. Personally, though, I view the demonisation of sensible, moderate philosophies as a grand opportunity for new and interesting roleplay material. If the whole galaxy's crystallized into extremism, and your character's a moderate, that just gives you more avenues to explore.
For example, if I were to quit Duty. and go back to 0.0, I could say that the Provists had finally got tired of my opposition to their regime, and had decided to try and use my family as leverage to make me fall in line, prompting me to evacuate them.
Every obstacle is an opportunity in disguise
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Sepherim
Amarr
Ordo Quaesitoris
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Posted - 2008.07.22 01:35:00 -
[8]
I believe you have gone a bit far there Uilliam. There are many stories of all kinds of slaves, from the miners in Theodicy to the sex slaves Karsoth owns, or the nice small farms in the Ammatar worlds. Slavery is a complex institution in the Empire, and probably encompasses all kinds of relationships and missions. Empyrean Age hints at it a bit in the last chapter (well, the one before the last, but last one doesn't count) when Karsoth is looking for a pilot and describes the slave market. So I'd say there's a bit of everything, afterall, culture in the Empire is very diversified and changes from race to race, planet to planet.
Ordo Quaesitoris Forum |
Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
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Posted - 2008.07.22 02:00:00 -
[9]
Well, just finished it, and yes, the ending chapters (Last twenty, thirty pages.) do have a vast difference in tone from the majority of the novel.
And I totally agree with both your points on diversity within Amarr and the other empires, and how it would shape the society Stitcher and Sepherim. But it kind of seemed a little too late, after the the examples of Karsoth, the Amarrian agents sexual assault on Karen Midular, the Amarrian giving the little girl a gun to shoot a Matari soldier. In the very end, you get some sense that Amarrian society is not completely made up of monsters.
It be great if they would expand more upon that in the PF. To actually give an idea of how much more complicated those divisions are. I guess I'll keep an eye on Grak's petition going to the CSM for more third blood line material. And also what else is done with the PF.
/
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.) |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.22 02:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Stitcher on 22/07/2008 02:23:10
The agent may have been WORKING for the Amarr, but he himself was Minmatar. and I doubt he was under orders to do what he did.
I don't think those soldiers gave the kid the gun because they were Amarr and the other guy was a minnie either. I reckon they did it because they were soldiers, and sometimes soldiers do fethed up stuff like that, because when it's raining pure hell all around you, sometimes the mind stops working right.
Karsoth wasn't a monster because he was Amarrian. He was a monster because he was Karsoth.
There's always another perspective, is my point. If other Amarrians had known about Karsoth's little indiscretions, for example, then they'd have been appalled - he was a monster by their standards as well.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
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Jocian Orem
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Posted - 2008.07.22 04:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Uilliam Nebel
But more so then anything, it seems to be painting the Amarr role-player into a corner. As he can not be a proud Amarrian, or even live in the Empire, for if he has a sense of decency and humanity, according to some PF of late, he is not Amarrian, but a heretic.
I'd point out that unless it deals with a specific previously mentioned event, New PF doesn't necessarily override old. You can view the varying treatments of slavery within the PF as snapshots of slavery within the Empire.
One Holder might be a kind and upright man who treats his slaves with dignity and (relative) respect in the genuine belief that he has a duty to bring them to God, while another treats them like cattle and inflicts misery on them for sadistic amusement, while justifying it with his religion.
Regarding the recent PF, while I think the 'Wayward Children' Chronicle was a refreshing change, I've also noticed recently some rather heavy-handed stark painting of the Empires as "Minmatar and Gallente are good, Amarr and Caldari are evil.".
While it's annoying, you just have to roll with the punches. Just like in life, IC power changes hands, people who your character may not agree with rise to the top and do things they dislike, you, and your character, just have to carry on and do your best.
Originally by: Stitcher
It's been like that from day one, though. "We come for our people!" anyone? In any given population of roleplayers, you will find a sizeable demographic whose idea of good RP is to personify all their chosen race's stereotypes. Now, to a degree that's accurate - people wouldn't have come up with the stereotype of the lager-guzzling British football hooligan if people like that didn't exist, for example - but it's not outstanding RP. It's average RP at best- some people just think the best characters are the loudest ones.
While that's true, I'd also point out that it's quite easy to go too far in the other direction. There are plenty of people who seem to think the only way to make their character standout is by playing the exact opposite of every established common trait of their race.
There is quite a lot of wiggle room even within a 'stereotype', and rejecting everything about the culture/history doesn't make you any better an RP'er than simply playing to the most literal caricature of the race.
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Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.07.22 10:42:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kai Zion on 22/07/2008 10:54:23
It's worth noting that the concept of "compassionate Amarrians" is not new at all. What is new is the focus it's now getting.
You can find compassion from the highest authority in the Empire itself in the Khumaak chronicle and it's sister, The Outcast.
There are plenty of nuances and subtleties in all of the Empires and I can't see that changing unless you have some fairly dramatic turns of events. The Wayward Children chronicle shows that even the Reclaiming itself is not something that is "cardboard-cutout sinister". Eve has never been a black and white, two-dimensional world and I don't think the novel can undermine that, even if it is riddled with all manner of archetypes. Also, as was pointed out, it's not 100% packed with them, they're just the majority. You do get glimpses into other parts of the Amarrian psyche that old PF like the Chrons above supports.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.22 11:03:00 -
[13]
More then 2 years ago, I created a Khanid Alt, with the purpose of PvP, but also with a bit of RP Backstory.
She is of Cyberknight Ancestry and since she spent a lot of time in 0.0 or in non-Amarrian empire space, so she is a Ronin-Khanid without a lord, or faith in god and in the eyes of loyal khanid she would be a traitor.
Also she is not a good gal, or a bad gal, but rather someone who lives with his/her own code of honor, deep inside her she sometimes questions her decisions, that brought her to leave the empire, but is still assured, that it was the only way, to keep her personal honor.
That was my approach to a good Amarr. However I do not think that there are lots of Empire loyal Amarr, who think themselves as bad persons. So a 'good' and loyal Amarr would still hold slaves but he would not treat them badly and might even try to educate them in the scriptures, to save their souls.
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.22 12:56:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Stitcher on 22/07/2008 12:57:03
Originally by: Jocian Orem
While that's true, I'd also point out that it's quite easy to go too far in the other direction. There are plenty of people who seem to think the only way to make their character standout is by playing the exact opposite of every established common trait of their race.
There is quite a lot of wiggle room even within a 'stereotype', and rejecting everything about the culture/history doesn't make you any better an RP'er than simply playing to the most literal caricature of the race.
Very true. Balance, that's the key. Embrace as many of your race's common traits as you like, and work them around the character's core philosophy.
My initial point, however, was that bad roleplaying is not a product of changes to the PF - it's always been with us and always will be with us, regardless of the current shape of the PF.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.23 01:35:00 -
[15]
Well, it took me long enough to decide to actually post something here. I try not to post with this guy outside the IGS but couldnt resist. Those of you who know me know how i RP Veron, and how I "look" at things. I try to make it clear that Veron is both loyal to the Empire as a whole and yet also holds himself to be responsible to his slaves as well.
I based this on texts that I have read concerning slavery in the Roman Empire and the Persian Empire and how the serf system (basically slavery) work in ancient Byzantium. Slaves of Rome could own slaves themselves. They had a myriad of rights, responsibilities and such. They also had more social standing then non-citizens. Non-citizens of Rome could be killed or harmed almost for sport by any citizen, slaves could not. I have always sensed this in some of the stories and lore concerning the Amarr.
The religious aspect of Amarr I have always treated as being corrupted by mortal concerns having overtaken the spiritual meaning behind it. It doesnt help that I have only ever seen partial quotes of specific "Scriptures". If anyone knows of any single or compiled book called the Scriptures, I would love a link. Hell, any comprehensive collection of Amarrian religious texts would be appreciated.
I have played for about 2 years total now but never really cared about the RP aspect, and made Veron for the purpose of RP, since I was interested in it. So if I have missed some source of knowledge about the Amarr, forgive me.
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Sepherim
Amarr
Ordo Quaesitoris
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Posted - 2008.07.23 03:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Veron Daerth
Well, it took me long enough to decide to actually post something here. I try not to post with this guy outside the IGS but couldnt resist. Those of you who know me know how i RP Veron, and how I "look" at things. I try to make it clear that Veron is both loyal to the Empire as a whole and yet also holds himself to be responsible to his slaves as well.
I based this on texts that I have read concerning slavery in the Roman Empire and the Persian Empire and how the serf system (basically slavery) work in ancient Byzantium. Slaves of Rome could own slaves themselves. They had a myriad of rights, responsibilities and such. They also had more social standing then non-citizens. Non-citizens of Rome could be killed or harmed almost for sport by any citizen, slaves could not. I have always sensed this in some of the stories and lore concerning the Amarr.
That certainly could be the case at least in some planets. I could very well imagine the Khanid and Ni-Kunni being more gentle with their slaves than the rest... afterall they were slaves before. Of course, I could imagine the opposite too, but the novel states that the Minmatarr attacked the worlds were the slaves were treated worse, and no mention to either the Ni-Kunni nor the Khanid is made, so...
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The religious aspect of Amarr I have always treated as being corrupted by mortal concerns having overtaken the spiritual meaning behind it. It doesnt help that I have only ever seen partial quotes of specific "Scriptures". If anyone knows of any single or compiled book called the Scriptures, I would love a link. Hell, any comprehensive collection of Amarrian religious texts would be appreciated.
I have played for about 2 years total now but never really cared about the RP aspect, and made Veron for the purpose of RP, since I was interested in it. So if I have missed some source of knowledge about the Amarr, forgive me.
No, unfortunately there are tons of little pieces of the Scriptures, but no compilation. Ginger was trying to make one, but if he did, he never made it public.
Ordo Quaesitoris Forum |
Gottii
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.24 06:27:00 -
[17]
I could understand the frustration that many Amarr players would have, it would be hard to want to play many of the Amarrian characters protrayed in the PF. First I would like to agree with Verone's comment, so far most of the PF and Chronicles are about the political movers and shakers in a brutal, backstabbing, machievallian(sp? im too tired to look up the spelling...) theocratic Empire. You dont get to those positions by being a good, trusting, moral person. It's something of a selection bias. If you have to scheme and fight your way to the top, those at the top generally arent people you would trust with your car keys.
Also, unfortunately, from our standpoint, it would be really, really really hard for a True Amarr to be "moral" in our sense. They were raised from birth to believe they were the chosen ones. Their entire culture and religion give them a sense of entitlement that would inherently create extreme narcissim if not outright sociopaths in the "chosen" ones of society. In fact, any moral concern for the "lesser" reasons, i.e. viewing them as fellow human beings, would not only be discouraged in Amarrian culture, it would be heretical and shameful. For a true Amarr who grew up in that environment since day one, it might take torture or amnesia to "see the light" and follow what we would consider moral behavior.
Also, the institution of slavery generally breeds a tendency to dehumanize those around you. Modern moral behavior is generally rooted in empathy for others, which the institution of slavery inherently eats away at. It's only a matter of degrees from dehumanizing say the Matari or Gallente to dehumanizing "less worthy" Amarr, until your sense of empathy is completely eaten away. I would say that unfortunately a lot of Amarrian characters displayed in PF are moral, at least in that they embody the morals of their culture. They are exhibiting what they were taught was right. Its just that their morals dont include empathy for others.
That being said, slavery can be incredibly nuianced, and is a lot more complex than most modern people realize, and much of that complexity isnt in the PF. For instance, at one time one of the wealthiest men in the entire Roman Empire was in fact a slave, which kinda flies in the face of modern views of what a slave is However, slavery was also far far more brutal and horrific than most modern people realize as well. As an awful example, one recorded description of a sugar cane planation in the Caribbean, the planation owner bragged that every one of his hundreds of slaves were in fact his own children he fathered by forcing himself on their mothers. And he worked them to death by the score. Its about the most evil thing I ever read. (I had a course on slavery and its effects in college, and it stuck with me) Given that the Amarr have a religious as well as cultural mandate to treat people as less than human, it would be hard to envision that kind of brutality wouldnt be widespread in the Amarrian Empire as well.
What Im trying to say, growing up in that environment, it would take a truly amazingly empathic True Amarr to look beyond his upbringing and act in a way that we would consider "moral" (like Drizzt on extacy kinda empathy in the face of institutionalized evil). Im not just saying this because Im playing a Minmatar character (I picked the race for the shades more than anything else...), its just that its really hard to realistically create slave owners who have a modern view on morality, i.e. "good guys". PCs should be those exceptional people who break away, but I think the PF would indicate that they are the tiny heretical exception, not the rule. It's not that the Amarr as a whole are the "bad guys" (except PIE ), its just their concept of whats right and wrong flies in the face of what most of us believe...
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:35:00 -
[18]
Well, a lot of people do not understand the historical uses and necessity of slavery. There are 7 major requirements (and a lot more minor) for a society to progress from a hunter-gatherer basis to a more established civilization. This is based on the fact that ALL modern societies are descended from a very small number of archtypes, and all the archtypes have similar points of congruence.
1. Religion. Tribal (hunter gatherer in a classical sense) are motivated to follow one guy. He is the biggest, strongest, fastest etc. You disagree with him, you keep your trap shut or he shuts it for you. If you can keep him from shutting it for you, you are the winner, and the new leader, yay. You directly control the tribe (small family unit, usually no bigger then an immediate family and some random relations.) and get all the perks. You mate with the women, and get the most food. We arent even talking medievil here people, its sticks with carved rocks attached and maybe some fire in a cave.
Religion changes that. No longer is the leader chosen for being the biggest and baddest, he has to have the "favor of the gods, spirits etc" to rule. This usually amounts to the same thing as before, keep it shut or I will do it for you, but the basic premise of a deity or deities or omnipowerful being that can trump any mortal power sets the stage for further social progress. If the leader cannot ensure plenty of meat and food, the "gods" obviously dont favor him, and he is ususally deposed/killed. The next guy hopefully does better, and usually is motivated to do so in the way of providing for the tribe so as to not end up like the previous guy. Religion also sets the stage for the next requirement, social classes.
2. Social Classes. Social Classes are very very important. A good society needs chiefs and workers, to build a civilization you also need some things in place to make it possible. One thing is food. Farmers and herders (static gatherers) are very efficient at providing food. They also cant do anything BUT that. They dont have time to go fight for more resources because they spend all day farming. (Dont believe me? Try to plant a garden big enough to provide say..30% of your total food needs just for yourself for a year. Do it with a shovel, and a garden hoe. No fertilizer, no bug spray, no weed killer. Plant it in an area that is NOT your front lawn. Pick the rocks out of the frozen ground in February or March, since it has to be cleared in time to actually get anything to grow and be harvested in time for summer dry season. Do all this by hand. Keep the bugs and birds and vermin from eating all your food. Now, when you have broken yourself trying this, because you ARE weak and you WILL hurt yourself eventually, dont go to the doctor, they dont exist. You have to work through it, because while you are lying in bed resting from an infection, those birds and shit are out there depriving you of your food.
Now, imagine what this is like when you have to provide ALL the food you can rely on to eat in a year for you and your family, and the local potentate and the guys that keep other, less successful farmers from stealing your shit. Good luck)
Soldiers are needed to fend of bandits (why plant and work for it when you can steal it) and to keep other tribes out of your very nice valley, the one with the good soil. (nope, not all dirt is good for farming) Since Religion is a part of your life, priests, shamans, etc are needed. They need food. They have important roles to do, and cant spend all day farming either.
The result, social classes. You get religious guys, leader type guys, warriors, hunters, farmers etc. And there is ALWAYS a pecking order. The top of the heap is leader types, then usually religious guys, then warriors , then farmers. No one wants to really spend their lives digging in the ground, (not without technology) so farmers are usually not something to aspire to be, so they end up on the bottom of the ladder.
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.24 20:54:00 -
[19]
contd from above.
3. Architecture. A sign that civilization is progressing form nomads to a more static society is ALWAYS accompanied by building. Gods need temples, farmers need fields and something to protect them and their livestock (which feed all of the tribe) so you get walls, first of wooden logs (palisades) then later of mud brick and maybe stone, depending on climate. Leaders need houses that emphasize their importance, and somewhere to put all their stuff. Leaders have to have stuff. If they didnt, other leaders wouldnt take them seriously. A good leader has a lot of stuff... swords, a shield, a horse, a few women to show his virility, and someone to keep it all clean. (slaves work good for this)
Architecture requires someone to design it, you get a new class, artisans, out of this, and you get a new source of labor, slaves. Primitive building takes a LOT of muscle, and you DONT have it in your tribe/society, so you need a new source, slaves.
4. Slavery. People assume that slavery is a sign of the loss of value of a human life. Some have said it "dehumanizes a society". This is actually historically reversed. All human life has no set value. Value of life is subjective, and is in no way objective. Waht this means for the younger ones out there is that your life has no value in relation to the world. There is nothing that you will ever be able to do that cannot be reproduced by another person. Skills and abilities are the only thing that social progress was based on during the dawn of civilization. So life had no value to the society excet in what you could do. Your parents would care, and they put value on you, and your extended family might to a degree. (For more info on this look up "Amoral Familialism".) But your culture did not.
Example. My tribe wants yout tribes land. We need more food and cant afford to trade for it. You have good land a thats just the ticket for us. So we invade your valley. We kill most of you. Definitely your leader and all the males, because they will be the most inclined to resist us in the future. The old women and the very young have to go too. They sreve no purpose to us and will be replaced easily enough from our own tribe. Breeding age females are taken and integrated. This isnt slavery, just a way of life. The famales know this and accept it. Females in the world alone die fast, and cannot provide for themselves. They will be r*ped during the inital invasion and after the fight, but will be taken in by warriors or members of my tribe after a little while. Welcome to the family. Those who have no intrinsic value are killed, young, old, and those most likely to cause trouble. This is a savage way to go about it and is a hallmark of the hunter gatherer tribes.
Civilizations have labor needs though, so instead of killing everyone that you conquer except for a lucky few, you enslave them and put them to work. Historically, these "battle-slaves" arent enslaved for life and within a generation they and their offspring have been assimilated by the conquering culture or society. (We are at the point in history where Man can make some softer metal implements like bronze and copper, BTW.)
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.24 21:12:00 -
[20]
contd from above, yeah I know, its long.
5. Trade. Hunter gatherers trade for things, usually at semi annual meeting places. Civilizations stay put though, so you can build a better market, and can actually produce tradeable stuff, like glass beads and metal items. These require kilns and furnaces and smithy's to make, and you cant really feasibly transport them over the distances needed to sustain a nomadic lifestyle. Slaves and precious metals also make good barter. Food is something that is always in demand and any surplus that isnt stored against a rainy day is also usually sold or traded. Livestock is great for this purpose. Grains and fruit that have been harvested are susceptible to rot and vermin. Goats and sheep and cows arent. Well, not so much. Since stuff like grains and oil are bulky, they need a lot of labor to load and transport (no cranes, or trains or boxes or forklifts here, try loading 30 tons of loose grain stored in a covered basket or clay jar into a small ship or onto a mule or camel train. Yay for slaves again)
okay, your probably tired of me rambling on by now, so i will cut it short.
Basically my point is that slavery and religion are 2 of the NECESSARY building blocks of civilization. Both have to be applied systematically and reliably, sporadically taking slaves or applying your religion will undermine your burgeoning civilization. Slavery is not a devaluation of life (in a primitive society) is the establishment of a set value of human life. Without that, we all would be savages roaming the plains of Europe (I would, dont know where your ancestors roamed) and I would be invading your little camp with my family and friends with the intent of killing you (if your not female or breedable, and even then its iffy, my sister is coming along nicely) and possibly taking all your stuff.
Without religion, there would be no "higher power" to keep my clan, tribe, family leader in check and simply taking everything for himself and then necessitating me trying to kill him for it.
One other thing. Lots of people try to analyze the social practices of the past with the moral and ethical values of today. My History professor once told me, "You cant judge the actions of past era's and societies by todays standards. Doing so takes you out of the realm of science and fact into the realm of fantasy and faith. Fantasy and faith have no place in science."
I dont know how this affects the Amarr as a society in this game, but one thing that has always drawn me to them is the possibility of seeing how they progress as a society in game. Like watching an ant farm in a way. I also see no reason why the basic historical archtypes would be in any way invalid in a presumed future universe than anywhere else. Sociology and Anthropology is fascinating to me, and History is one of my best subjects. I hold degrees in all of them. If you wish to discuss these subjects further, send me a game mail.
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.24 23:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Veron Daerth
The religious aspect of Amarr I have always treated as being corrupted by mortal concerns having overtaken the spiritual meaning behind it. It doesnt help that I have only ever seen partial quotes of specific "Scriptures". If anyone knows of any single or compiled book called the Scriptures, I would love a link. Hell, any comprehensive collection of Amarrian religious texts would be appreciated.
I have played for about 2 years total now but never really cared about the RP aspect, and made Veron for the purpose of RP, since I was interested in it. So if I have missed some source of knowledge about the Amarr, forgive me.
http://www.thezionaccounts.com/chron/AmarrPFMain.html
That's a Flash version of the Amarr PF Compilation, organized for better reading than the forum thread (which can be found in the Library). Has pretty much all the bits of the Scriptures that have made their way into PF.
There is a quasi-religious poem found in the short story 'The Artifice Maker.'
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Gottii
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.25 08:36:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Garion Avarr
Originally by: Veron Daerth
The religious aspect of Amarr I have always treated as being corrupted by mortal concerns having overtaken the spiritual meaning behind it. It doesnt help that I have only ever seen partial quotes of specific "Scriptures". If anyone knows of any single or compiled book called the Scriptures, I would love a link. Hell, any comprehensive collection of Amarrian religious texts would be appreciated.
I have played for about 2 years total now but never really cared about the RP aspect, and made Veron for the purpose of RP, since I was interested in it. So if I have missed some source of knowledge about the Amarr, forgive me.
http://www.thezionaccounts.com/chron/AmarrPFMain.html
That's a Flash version of the Amarr PF Compilation, organized for better reading than the forum thread (which can be found in the Library). Has pretty much all the bits of the Scriptures that have made their way into PF.
There is a quasi-religious poem found in the short story 'The Artifice Maker.'
Thanks for this, it's good stuff.
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Maris Blackbanner
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.27 06:25:00 -
[23]
I also have to agree with the OP that it seems like the shades of grey, which I've always regarded Eve, is slowly turning more and mroe into clear divisions of Black and White. Namely, Minmatar/Gallente=Good, noble guys. Amarr=Evil Monsters. They are a little kind to the Caldari, tho but with the introduction of Heth, I think its pretty obvious that they are nudging Caldari into the "Bad guys" camp.
A lot of players and perhaps a novelist or two :D are colouring their views of the Amarr by basing on the current and modern interpretations or perspectives. I felt that that is the wrong way to approach such a potentially juicy material. I think history themselves has shown that treatment of slaves can vastly differ(and they did) from one society to the next. In some culture, they were treated more like prisoners of war, while in some, they were actually regarded as a "member" of the slaverer's family ie : they were clothed, they were fed and they were married off.
Being that the Amarr is a society multiple trillions strong(and perhaps more), its quite ridiculous to imagine that each and every Amarrians, even True Chosens ones, have a singular and sadistic view towards the slaves under them. It, in fact, flew in the face of established canon, that being the Ni-kunnis (where one familly even made it to "Royal" status) and the Khanids (whom the Amarr were so fond of that they affectionately regarded them as "Little Lordlings"). *not to be confused with the Khanid Kingdom
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.27 13:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Maris Blackbanner
A lot of players and perhaps a novelist or two :D are colouring their views of the Amarr by basing on the current and modern interpretations or perspectives. I felt that that is the wrong way to approach such a potentially juicy material. I think history themselves has shown that treatment of slaves can vastly differ(and they did) from one society to the next. In some culture, they were treated more like prisoners of war, while in some, they were actually regarded as a "member" of the slaverer's family ie : they were clothed, they were fed and they were married off.
It very often varied inside one culture depending upon what the slaves were used for, as well -- slaves meant for hard labor typically weren't treated very well from what I understand, slaves meant to work in the household could be treated very well indeed (and in some cases might own slaves themselves, or own their own business, a percentage of the profits of which they paid to their masters). Slavery is very far from being a single monolithic entity with universal conditions, but when people here the word, they mostly just think of chains, whips, and hard labor.
Originally by: Maris Blackbanner
Ni-kunnis (where one familly even made it to "Royal" status)
That's Udorians, actually -- but your point is a good one. And historically, not all slaves were doomed to a life of misery -- the biblical story of Joseph has him as a slave who becomes an advisor to the pharoh, and read about the Janissaries and Mamluks, and then think about the Amarrian Kameiras.
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Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:26:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Faraelle Brightman on 31/07/2008 23:27:04
Originally by: Sepherim
Originally by: Veron Daerth
Quote:
The religious aspect of Amarr I have always treated as being corrupted by mortal concerns having overtaken the spiritual meaning behind it. It doesnt help that I have only ever seen partial quotes of specific "Scriptures". If anyone knows of any single or compiled book called the Scriptures, I would love a link. Hell, any comprehensive collection of Amarrian religious texts would be appreciated.
I have played for about 2 years total now but never really cared about the RP aspect, and made Veron for the purpose of RP, since I was interested in it. So if I have missed some source of knowledge about the Amarr, forgive me.
No, unfortunately there are tons of little pieces of the Scriptures, but no compilation. Ginger was trying to make one, but if he did, he never made it public.
The book does raise an interesting insight as to the origin of some of the Ammar scriptures though. Main character X uses the scriptures to find acient secret Y: if you reject the providence of any actual divinity, the paralels between the written Scripture and ancient secret Y are too many for it to be coincidence. It may be that many other parts of the scriptures were writen by ancient settlers of New Eden as coded messages to locations of Ancient Secrets W, X and Z.
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.08.01 00:57:00 -
[26]
I dont know, but it just irritates me that when everyone see's the word slave, they jump to the conclusion that the slave is a downtrodden, beaten, abused almost animalistic person. They then make the step to seeing the slaver as a sadistic, bestial demonic sub-human.
Like it or not, slavery is a necessary part of the initial stages of civilization. Empires like the Amarr are portrayed as are also historically socially stagnant or slow to progress on the "human rights" front, so they tend to hold on to institutions and systems like slavery longer than other governmental systems.
It just irritates me a bit to see all the calls for "kill them all, they are just scum" when it comes to the Amarr. And yes, its still silly for me to get irritated about a game of make believe spaceships. Guess I need some WoW time to get perspective?
Just kidding about WoW...seriously...
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Avel Kereka
Amarr
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.08.01 05:24:00 -
[27]
The current fluff is very, very pro-Gallente and anti-Amarr (and to a lesser extent pro-Minmatar and anti-Caldari). There was absolutely no need for that news article awhile back in which the slaves starved to death, for example. It would be a much more balanced universe if the Gallente legalized harmful things in the name of freedom (as well as had ethnic strife issues) while the Amarr had general peace and prosperity thanks to their lack of freedom. This would make way for a healthy debate; the Amarrians could claim their system offered overall peace and security while the Gallente would claim peace and security are individual concerns and that freedom trumps everything.
Unfortunately, as it stands now, the story team has this idea that the Gallente "bad sides" are bad enough that they balance out the "bad sides" of the other empires. This simply isn't so. Abraxas recently claimed the lack of a Gallente social security net is bad; big deal, their economy is roaring and they're practically begging people to immigrate because the job market is so good. It certainly beats the Caldari system in which people are sent to their doom in remote mining areas, only to dissapear if they try to improve their lot in life. Their democracy runs like clockwork, they always look for the peaceful solution and they're willing to sacrifice their own resources to make friends with the other Empires. When I first started EVE I was impressed with the grittiness of the whole thing, and assumed the Gallente were drug-addled, corrupt hedonists who wanted to suck the lifeblood out of any society they came into contact with. Sadly, they're just a bunch of dudley do-gooders.
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Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.08.01 05:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Veron Daerth
I dont know, but it just irritates me that when everyone see's the word slave, they jump to the conclusion that the slave is a downtrodden, beaten, abused almost animalistic person. They then make the step to seeing the slaver as a sadistic, bestial demonic sub-human.
Like it or not, slavery is a necessary part of the initial stages of civilization. Empires like the Amarr are portrayed as are also historically socially stagnant or slow to progress on the "human rights" front, so they tend to hold on to institutions and systems like slavery longer than other governmental systems.
It just irritates me a bit to see all the calls for "kill them all, they are just scum" when it comes to the Amarr. And yes, its still silly for me to get irritated about a game of make believe spaceships. Guess I need some WoW time to get perspective?
Just kidding about WoW...seriously...
I'm not sure that people holding the "omg, slavery bad" view *isn't* realistic.
American history example: We know that many of the Founding Fathers owned slaves. When the Declaration of Independence was written a passage speaking against slavery was stricken from it in order for it to pass. There was obviously heated debate on the subject but it was still "normal" at the time, and we know that most of the Declaration signers were not bad people.
Fast forward 90 years to the American Civil War. In the South, slavery as an institution was much more in the position that it is in the Amarr empire in EVE: deeply polarizing, with its practitioners clinging to things like religious arguements to justify it and a large, vocal opposition to it. There may have been "nicer" slave-owners but you rarely hear about them, you hear mostly about the curelety of the institution. If you were to actauly meet an Ammarian (or 1800s Southerner) on the street you might have a different story to tell, but most people are going to be on the outside looking in.
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Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.08.01 05:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Avel Kereka
The current fluff is very, very pro-Gallente and anti-Amarr (and to a lesser extent pro-Minmatar and anti-Caldari). There was absolutely no need for that news article awhile back in which the slaves starved to death, for example. It would be a much more balanced universe if the Gallente legalized harmful things in the name of freedom (as well as had ethnic strife issues)...
There *are* Ethnic strife issues, but they're less obvious now than they were when I was playing in 2006. There was the (sadly cut off) plotline with the Intaki Idama, the election where race was an issue with Blaque comming off as being a bit of a racist (things got a lost less interesting when he lost), some Gallente RPers parroted his Gallente supremecy ideas for a while. But the war has pushed them to the back burner, it seems, coupled with the fact the institutions where these could be pushed forward have waned...AURORA is gone, Intaki Union disbanded, Placid Reborn is barely active.
The biggest flaw in the Federation democracy is considered to be the beauracracy...so many layers of red tape that getting anything done is rather difficult, and a lot of the institutions are inept or like the Navy, underfunded. And there are plenty of corrupt hedonists I'm sure...the fiction at least establishes the Syndicate as the clearing house for all sorts of illegal vices, but I don't think many people actauly play that angle.
Yeah it does still beat the other empires for quality of life. We'll have to see what the war does to that.
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Avel Kereka
Amarr
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.08.01 07:10:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
There *are* Ethnic strife issues, but they're less obvious now than they were when I was playing in 2006. There was the (sadly cut off) plotline with the Intaki Idama, the election where race was an issue with Blaque comming off as being a bit of a racist (things got a lost less interesting when he lost), some Gallente RPers parroted his Gallente supremecy ideas for a while. But the war has pushed them to the back burner, it seems, coupled with the fact the institutions where these could be pushed forward have waned...AURORA is gone, Intaki Union disbanded, Placid Reborn is barely active.
The biggest flaw in the Federation democracy is considered to be the beauracracy...so many layers of red tape that getting anything done is rather difficult, and a lot of the institutions are inept or like the Navy, underfunded. And there are plenty of corrupt hedonists I'm sure...the fiction at least establishes the Syndicate as the clearing house for all sorts of illegal vices, but I don't think many people actauly play that angle.
Yeah it does still beat the other empires for quality of life. We'll have to see what the war does to that.
When it comes to red tape the Gallente are no worse than the other empires; they were mothballing alot of ships recently, but that's it. And if the war does anything to their standard of life, it isn't their fault and thus is useless as far as making them darker is concerned. You bring up a great point with the Blaque/Intaki issue, and I honestly wish there was alot more of that... but there isn't. So, as of August 2008, the Gallente are the the emo anti-heroes who are fighting dirty against a mean, mean universe *gag*.
The Syndicate is not the Federation, it's a semi-pirate faction. That being said I think the Federation needs alot more of the Syndicate flavour. CCP should make all drugs legal in Gallente space, and play up the aspect of them absorbing lesser cultures and forcing them into wage slavery (like they did to the Caldari). The Gallente government should be this outwardly heroic, but inwardly corrupt body which does very ugly things while the populace is distracted by the shiny media. This may all be the case; however, we aren't seeing any of it in the PF.
(PS. please don't let Mr. Gonzales write about the Amarr ever again, we might as well add the Harkonnen family to the heirs)
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