Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:03:00 -
[1]
Hey all, here is a idea i have been tossing around for a little amount of time. could you please let me know what you think?
All the talk for assault frigs that Zulu and Hammerhead have thrown around is simply to give the ships a correct role. personally i am against this, i dont want the assult frigate;s to have a role, to my mind these are entry level tech 2 ships, i think it would be preferably to keep them as pretty standard ships within there own fits. (harpy stays as a hybrid platform, etc, etc).
so the problem is, how to do we make them usefull to use? if no role then what? how do we boost them sufficently to make them usefull.
the current issue is mainly that they are slow and heavy yet a tech I cruiser tanks better, and generally provies more firepower and tank and generally can be nano'd better.
i dont really support reducing the mass, to the tech I counterparts, as i dont want a "same ship & better" view.
I dont agree with giving them cruiser sized weapons ether, that would be hard to balance and the mass addition would also give them the same sort of issue that stealth bombers have (only without the boon a stealth bomber).
i would support giving assault frigates a cruiser sized cappacitor and a cruiser (or slightly smaller) power grid.
this should allow us to fit cruiser sized tank modules without worrying so much about cap, basically cap management would be come much easyer on these ships, it will give them a decent chance against a cruiser as the resists, tank and smaller sigradius should help greatly, but the basic handling charicteristics would remain the same (meaning, slow battle frigs). The general idea would be that as the weapons bonuses remain on the small weapon types, meaning against small ships these really would be a bit of a doom bringer (as they are now), but against larger ships the incrased tank that they could field should give them a chance against cruisers.
is this a totally sucky idea? (or has someone suggest this moons ago and it got thrown out as stupid?)
/neo
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
|
Dheorl
Surge. NIght's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:14:00 -
[2]
So put HAC tanks onto frigs .
IMO all the need is a slight mass reduction and possibly a bonus to AB speed increase. You say that you want them to be entry lvl T2 ships (so no specific role) but don't want them to be just better frigs... tbh that confuses me slightly but meh.
I mean if they do give me the ability to fit a cruiser sized tank then I'm not going to object, I just don't think it's what they need.
|
Transmaniacon
Minmatar Strike-Force-Alpha
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:19:00 -
[3]
I think thats a decent idea. Alternatively, they could just receive a large HP bonus on their respective HP type, Jaguar/Wolf would get a big bonus to shield HP, etc... By big bonus, I would like to see cruiser lvl HP on the assault frig. As mentioned above, it would let take quite a beating and keep fighting, kind of fulfilling the 'assault' role.
|
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:21:00 -
[4]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 22/07/2008 12:23:01
Originally by: Dheorl So put HAC tanks onto frigs .
IMO all the need is a slight mass reduction and possibly a bonus to AB speed increase. You say that you want them to be entry lvl T2 ships (so no specific role) but don't want them to be just better frigs... tbh that confuses me slightly but meh.
I mean if they do give me the ability to fit a cruiser sized tank then I'm not going to object, I just don't think it's what they need.
yher fair comment, all tho they wouldnt have have HAC sized tanks, as the buff is smaller by default. but still yes its a fairly obvious issue to be honest...
only thing id be proposing is the cappacitor and the PG, upgrade.
and i did not provide any decent numbers, but i am talking about PG from a cruiser not a HAC, meaning where as HAC's usually can horn on a *(lets say for example) a LSE and a few hards, id expect the assault frigs to be able to pop on a MSE and a SSE, not the large, if that makes sense...
tech I, tier I cruiser Equiv. (the hac has about 100 base more power on the moa hull for example), i think its 700 ish to 800ish on the hac, so id propose a PG of around 550/650.
the problem with my personaly fits for Assault frigs atm is most of them require me to **** away a low slot on a MPAC for the most basic of setups and thats ****ing me off ;)
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
|
Cogswin Iannyen
Caldari Minmatar Mafia
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: NeoTheo
Is this a totally sucky idea?
Yes.
|
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cogswin Iannyen
Originally by: NeoTheo
Is this a totally sucky idea?
Yes.
;)
your input is welcome and appreicated.. ;)
/Hug.
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
|
Cogswin Iannyen
Caldari Minmatar Mafia
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:30:00 -
[7]
What?!? You asked...
I always thought the best way to make assault ships useful would be to give them a fitting bonus for the cruiser bastard weapons. You know, those weapons sized for a cruiser, but that no one ever uses?
AF's being able to fit dual hybrid/projectile/laz0rz/cowbells, or Assault Missle launchers would give them an edge over their T1 frigate counterparts, but keep them cheaper AND less effective than their HAC upgrades.
The problem with just giving them more grid/cpu as a raw number means its more open to people finding a way to break them.
|
Zarnak Wulf
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:30:00 -
[8]
I agree with some of what you're saying but not all. More PG/ CPU would be nice but not on the level of a full cruiser. The biggest thing that calls out for attention is that one of the AF's four bonuses are it's resistances. This should just be understood as a T2 ship- especially since you're getting a mass penalty for it. Races have a "long" distance AF. Give these a tracking bonus instead. The close up and personal AF- web resistance, ab bonus, more HP, triple damage bonus - take your pick. Alternatively, keep the resistance bonus but lift the mass reduction. An AF should be able to give the tier 3 cruisers a run for their money in a one vs one. Right now, they cost a tad more and can't quite do that.
|
Dheorl
Surge. NIght's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Transmaniacon I think thats a decent idea. Alternatively, they could just receive a large HP bonus on their respective HP type, Jaguar/Wolf would get a big bonus to shield HP
It would have to be a bonus to every hp, not just one.
Originally by: NeoTheo and i did not provide any decent numbers, but i am talking about PG from a cruiser not a HAC, meaning where as HAC's usually can horn on a *(lets say for example) a LSE and a few hards, id expect the assault frigs to be able to pop on a MSE and a SSE, not the large, if that makes sense...
AF's can already generally fit on a MSE, if you give them the PG from a cruiser because of their small guns an LSE would be no problem at all, not to mention the vengeances you'd get flying around with a MAR/1600mm plate on them. Basically it would provide absolutly sick tanks (I mean if you give the harpy the pg of the moa it will be able to passive tank 150dps whilst having a nice large buffer and still room for basic tackle)
|
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:45:00 -
[10]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 22/07/2008 12:47:28 Edited by: NeoTheo on 22/07/2008 12:45:53
Originally by: Dheorl
Originally by: Transmaniacon I think thats a decent idea. Alternatively, they could just receive a large HP bonus on their respective HP type, Jaguar/Wolf would get a big bonus to shield HP
It would have to be a bonus to every hp, not just one.
Originally by: NeoTheo and i did not provide any decent numbers, but i am talking about PG from a cruiser not a HAC, meaning where as HAC's usually can horn on a *(lets say for example) a LSE and a few hards, id expect the assault frigs to be able to pop on a MSE and a SSE, not the large, if that makes sense...
AF's can already generally fit on a MSE, if you give them the PG from a cruiser because of their small guns an LSE would be no problem at all, not to mention the vengeances you'd get flying around with a MAR/1600mm plate on them. Basically it would provide absolutly sick tanks (I mean if you give the harpy the pg of the moa it will be able to passive tank 150dps whilst having a nice large buffer and still room for basic tackle)
funny my Harpy fits struggle with a MSE, but thats because i always fit a MWD (its a blarpy), I need 2 MPAC's to make a MSE fit, with 2 lows that pretty much gimps the shit out of the ship.
admittedly i am trying to take my cake and eat it, but i can with most tech II ships so why not this one.
;) (i mean by that, my blarp have NeutronII's a MSE and a MWD).
I notice that people are not commenting on the cap size thing..
Ok also, now i am thinking slightly more clearly, cruiser sized PG would be ******ed, as they aint fitting cruiser guns, how about they just get a significant PG upgrade so thay can fit the largest of the frigate modules without fitting mods, or over sized gear with fitting mods.? ;)
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
|
|
Troezar
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 12:55:00 -
[11]
Call me crazy but how about making them the natural enemy of the Recon and let them be immune to all the Recon's specialist weapons, eg webs/damps/ecm etc?
|
Dheorl
Surge. NIght's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 13:00:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Dheorl on 22/07/2008 13:03:08 Edited by: Dheorl on 22/07/2008 13:00:33
Originally by: NeoTheo funny my Harpy fits struggle with a MSE, but thats because i always fit a MWD (its a blarpy), I need 2 MPAC's to make a MSE fit, with 2 lows that pretty much gimps the shit out of the ship.
admittedly i am trying to take my cake and eat it, but i can with most tech II ships so why not this one.
Fit electrons, still does over 200dps.
Also you can't fit the biggest guns and oversized mods with most T2 ships. Heavy neutrons + LSE doesn't fit on eagle, heavy pulse + 1600mm plate doesn't fit zealot and I'd be damned it you could ever get neutrons to fit with a 1600mm plate on a deimos without fitting mods.
Originally by: Troezar Call me crazy but how about making them the natural enemy of the Recon and let them be immune to all the Recon's specialist weapons, eg webs/damps/ecm etc?
Your crazy.
I think giving them a web strenght bonus would be nice and wouldn't take away from the role of any other ship.
P.S. If anyone thinks AF's can't take on T1 cruisers solo I'd be willing to give it a try, I've got a new setup I want to try out anyways.
|
Kano Sekor
Amarr The Movement
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 13:01:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kano Sekor on 22/07/2008 13:00:57 imo oppinion give them either slightly better damage than t1 cruisers (by boosting damage bonus even moar) or give them slightly better tank than t1 cruisers (by boosting resistances across the board). Giving the assault ships the role of anti-cruiser frigs.
edit:note not anti-nano-cruiser frig.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Desu Sigs |
Cogswin Iannyen
Caldari Minmatar Mafia
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 13:01:00 -
[14]
[Harpy, Flipper T2] Micro B88 Core Augmentation Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1MN Afterburner II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Medium Shield Extender II
Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot]
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
8170 EHP 2411 Shield HP 48.3 EM ~~ 80 KIN ~~ 70 HEAT ~~ 50 EXP 510 M/S 195 DPS 100% Cap Stable unless I get nos'd
Haven't lost one to a cruiser yet....
|
Draeca
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 13:08:00 -
[15]
I'd love to see AFs with awesome tank for a frig, and an increased web range. That would even make sense because how can these fat and slow frigs actually assault anything if they can't even get into range? ___
|
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 13:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cogswin Iannyen [Harpy, Flipper T2] Micro B88 Core Augmentation Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1MN Afterburner II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Medium Shield Extender II
Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot]
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
8170 EHP 2411 Shield HP 48.3 EM ~~ 80 KIN ~~ 70 HEAT ~~ 50 EXP 510 M/S 195 DPS 100% Cap Stable unless I get nos'd
Haven't lost one to a cruiser yet....
No MWD is a bit of a killer for me, but it is a nice fit ;)
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
|
Kano Sekor
Amarr The Movement
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 13:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Draeca I'd love to see AFs with awesome tank for a frig, and an increased web range. That would even make sense because how can these fat and slow frigs actually assault anything if they can't even get into range?
That whould be the awesome anti-nano frig increased web range and great tracking as they are frigs and the damage bonuses they already have.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Desu Sigs |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 13:58:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 22/07/2008 14:01:18
Why not combine a 4th bonus with idea of increased PG ? Example : X powergrid increase per level.
X: tweak right percentage or fixed amount
|
Annowyn
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 14:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 22/07/2008 14:00:01 Why not combine a 4th bonus with idea of increased PG ? Example : 10 powergrid increase per level.
Fixed.
|
Blutreiter
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 14:21:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Blutreiter on 22/07/2008 14:21:15 Make AFs use less hangarspace, so carriers can transport more of them fully fitted.
Also, give AFs a small bonus if used in the same squad with a carrier as squadleader. For example... 5% boost to afterburners per carrier skill level.
Role, mobility and unique niche in one.
Cogito ergo boom - I think i'll blow sh*t up
Originally by: CCP Explorer I know we have said this before, but this time we really mean itÖ
|
|
Cogswin Iannyen
Caldari Minmatar Mafia
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 14:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: NeoTheo
Originally by: Cogswin Iannyen [Harpy, Flipper T2] stuff....
No MWD is a bit of a killer for me, but it is a nice fit ;)
Depends on what you use it for. The tank is buffer and tracking. AF's are lumbering clods, you'd do good to get much more than 1500m/s with a MWD, you aren't cap stable, and you aren't *that* much harder to track. I'm actually considering dropping the AB and adding an invul field.
|
Bufo8o2
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 14:41:00 -
[22]
what about a pg and cpu reduction to double 150mm railguns or equivalent? Not an increase, just so these guns use the same as standard frigate weapons.
|
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 14:46:00 -
[23]
I'd like to see AFs be turned into Nano-killers, not by giving them anything game breaking but this should be the baseline design for AFs:
Frigate Skill: 10% bonus to tracking (explosion velocity bonus for missile ships and drone tracking for drone ships), 10% turret range bonus, missile flight speed, drone flight speed.
Assault Ships Skill: 10% bonus to damage (whatever weapons system is primary), 5% or 10% bonus to shield resist.
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to stasis webifier range.
% amounts for each bonus might need to be tweaked but; eh? --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
|
DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Haradgrim I'd like to see AFs be turned into Nano-killers, not by giving them anything game breaking but this should be the baseline design for AFs:
Frigate Skill: 10% bonus to tracking (explosion velocity bonus for missile ships and drone tracking for drone ships), 10% turret range bonus, missile flight speed, drone flight speed.
Assault Ships Skill: 10% bonus to damage (whatever weapons system is primary), 5% or 10% bonus to shield resist.
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to stasis webifier range.
% amounts for each bonus might need to be tweaked but; eh?
Considering Assault ships are more powerful that would make the hyena rather weak? Webs are the only thing it's got. _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
Troezar
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:38:00 -
[25]
This thread seem to be going somewhere at least in respect of AF's being a tool in the anti nano war. I'm all for giving them bonuses to help with catching them like web bonus however... the main prob of an AF is they die easily. If they don't get somethign to help stay a live who wants to just be nano cannon fodder? We have tackler frigs but most people opt for a better alternative that is more survivable i.e. the cloaking Rapier.
Hence they need: 1, Help to survive 2, Help to do something useful 3, All without displacing a current ship...
Answer these three and I think CCP may have a job for you
|
Cogswin Iannyen
Caldari Minmatar Mafia
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Troezar This thread seem to be going somewhere at least in respect of AF's being a tool in the anti nano war. I'm all for giving them bonuses to help with catching them like web bonus however... the main prob of an AF is they die easily. If they don't get somethign to help stay a live who wants to just be nano cannon fodder? We have tackler frigs but most people opt for a better alternative that is more survivable i.e. the cloaking Rapier.
Hence they need: 1, Help to survive 2, Help to do something useful 3, All without displacing a current ship...
Answer these three and I think CCP may have a job for you
#3 is invalid as a requirement because T1 cruisers, for the most part, displace the AF line of ships. Placing webber bonuses on the AF line of ships won't replace a Huginn/Rapier, since they can't mount the same firepower that the minnyRecons can.
As far as needing help to survive and do something useful.. welcome to flying Caldari...
|
DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Cogswin Iannyen
# Placing webber bonuses on the AF line of ships won't replace a Huginn/Rapier, since they can't mount the same firepower that the minnyRecons can.
As far as needing help to survive and do something useful.. welcome to flying Caldari...
The minmitar recon crusiers aren't that powerful, but the range would be a lot bigger and better so they'd be ok. However you seem to have totally overlooked the hyena. _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Haradgrim I'd like to see AFs be turned into Nano-killers, not by giving them anything game breaking but this should be the baseline design for AFs:
Frigate Skill: 10% bonus to tracking (explosion velocity bonus for missile ships and drone tracking for drone ships), 10% turret range bonus, missile flight speed, drone flight speed.
Assault Ships Skill: 10% bonus to damage (whatever weapons system is primary), 5% or 10% bonus to shield resist.
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to stasis webifier range.
% amounts for each bonus might need to be tweaked but; eh?
Considering Assault ships are more powerful that would make the hyena rather weak? Webs are the only thing it's got.
I don't have it infront of me but IIRC the hyena has a much better bonus than just 50% to range... but I would rather they buff it a bit to make it compete then lieave AFs the way they are.... --
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
|
Lubomir Penev
interimo
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Haradgrim I'd like to see AFs be turned into Nano-killers, not by giving them anything game breaking but this should be the baseline design for AFs:
Frigate Skill: 10% bonus to tracking (explosion velocity bonus for missile ships and drone tracking for drone ships), 10% turret range bonus, missile flight speed, drone flight speed.
Assault Ships Skill: 10% bonus to damage (whatever weapons system is primary), 5% or 10% bonus to shield resist.
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to stasis webifier range.
% amounts for each bonus might need to be tweaked but; eh?
Save stasis webifier bonus the Enyo is about there. It can make any inty flee but won't ever kill a smart one from being way too slow to ever catch one.
I think there are 6 ships with web range bonus in game already, don't think we need more, and most AF slot layout make them terrible tacklers anyway so a web range bonus would be wasted anyway...
-- Coming to you, Assault Ships fix, by the people saying that the Gallente Recons are fine. |
BiggestT
Caldari Fun Inc
|
Posted - 2008.07.22 15:51:00 -
[30]
sounds ok but then its basically just a t1 cruiser.. may aswell just fly that..
the resits etc will help sure but the t1 cruisers dps makes them superio even with that change.
Unless they reduced mass considerably (while adding speed boost penalty of course) and also did this, then it wld be quite nice poudly annoying fc's since 2007
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=828123 caldari drone boat enthusiast |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |