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Solutions to the Amarr/Minmitar problem that don't involve genocide?

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Author	Topic
Orun Erajen Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.25 03:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Veron Daerth From what I understand, the Intaki are pretty laid back, so he might fit in, but would he really ever get to understand their culture? I feel bound to inform you that our culture is not so nuanced or elitist that it is either impossible for outsiders to understand, nor disdainful and inhospitable towards those who do not understand it. We Intaki have always prided ourselves on being able to understand other points of view and other cultures. ----- Orun Erajen LeHane Family Representative and Capsuleer Liason
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.25 05:18:00 - [32] I made no such insinuation Pilot Erajen, and if it came across that way, let me assure you that that was not intended. I was simply asking if the slave could ever come to truly be a part of a society that is so very different from what he has always known his life? I am not personally familiar with the nuances of Intaki life or culture, having lived in the Federation for a short time only. I am sure that you, as members of the Federation, live up to its ideals of openness and equality for many. I suppose the question could be worded in another way, could you Pilot Erajen, ever come to truly be comfortable with and be a part of Imperial society? Could we as humans, creatures of habit and personal comfort, ever truly join or be a part of a culture or society so alien to what we are accustomed to and raised to accept?
Aeo IV Amarr Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2008.07.25 10:06:00 - [33] Edited by: Aeo IV on 25/07/2008 10:12:22 Edited by: Aeo IV on 25/07/2008 10:06:11 Slavery has little to do with wanting to oppress people, and more to do with lifting them up. Look at my own ancestors, the ni-kunni. We spent many years slaves, and through it, learned to humility and moral decency required to become so much more then ourselves through the Lord. The Minmatar can still be saved, even though they rejected Him once already, but they must first learn to bow before the Lord, and accept the totality of His Power and Wisdom. All of us are mere Threads in the Tapestry of Creation, and until the proudest of Men can accept this, and grovel before Him in Awe and Shame of His absolute perfection, and their own Sin-filled imperfection, and welcome him into our lives, they cannot be saved. The Pax Amarr says within it's holy pages: "A Broken Will is a savable soul; As a Goldsmith creates objects of great beauty from impure ore, so too will God smelt from us our sins, and forge us through the fires of trial into Wonderious beings to live forever with Him in his Glorious Kingdom."
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.07.25 11:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Veron Daerth Pilot Kitoba, what your parents experienced was not love in any way shape or form. The abuse and cruelty of some is not the love of God in any way. The love that God has for you is boundless, and eternal and is yours by birth and by right of being his creations. What happened to your parents was the result of human malice and greed and lust. They suffered not because of God, but because fools would have you believe that God wishes it so. This cannot be further from the truth. God does not want you to suffer, or to be harmed. He does not wish you to bow down in slavish devotion and worship blindly or without consideration for the consequences of your actions. I stopped reading right there. Is it a new tactic of the Amarr to spread disinformation about their religion? You're contradicting the scriptures with literally every letter.
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.07.25 15:02:00 - [35] Mr Daerth certainly is a bit liberal in his interpretations of the Faith, and a bit too forgiving. And the Pax Amarria is not a sacred book, nor part of the Scriptures. And yet both pilots hold a certain degree of truth. A solution that doesn't involve mass murder is easy Pilot Stuart: the Minmatarr turn their backs and head back to the Republic where they came from. As simple as that. They started the war and to this day continue to invade our space. They can end it just as simply. Of course, they have listened too much time to their "we come for our people" mantra that it has become like a blind faith to them, so they won't understand they are killing more of their people that they are actually freeing. Or is it that the members of your crews are not "your people"? It is simple. The Minmatarr turn back and head to the Republic. Require the ressources that the Elders stole from them in order to build their fleet, and with it they build schools, housing, hospitals, and so on. And maybe, they will have a future worth living then. But no. They say we are bound to tradition, that is true. But they are tied to their ghosts and their past and are unable to move forward from there. Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.07.25 16:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Sepherim Of course, they have listened too much time to their "we come for our people" mantra that it has become like a blind faith [...] I don't need no bloody U'K spokesperson to repeat their recruitment mantra to know that I'm serving every single slave in the empire by destroying it. I don't fight the empire because the empire enslaves Matari, but because the empire enslaves and I am Matar.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.25 18:52:00 - [37] Originally by: Sepherim the Minmatarr turn their backs and head back to the Republic where they came from.... we will, when we are done. Originally by: Sepherim They started the war... o rly? no we didn't but we are finishing it Originally by: Sepherim "we come for our people" mantra that it has become like a blind faith to them blind faith you say? Originally by: Sepherim It is simple. The Minmatarr turn back and head to the Republic..... Originally by: Sepherim ...[Minmatar] are unable to move forward from there. what is it, do we turn back or move forward? this war? it's us. 'moving forward' (I know i wasn't able to quote your entire argument. I'm having trouble hearing you over the screams of the dying amarr on my comlink.) your militia.... needs training ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.25 19:20:00 - [38] Pilot Kitoba, if you stop reading, you turn from the path of understanding. I may not like everything you say, but I read and listen to it all, so as to know and understand the whole idea you advocate, the entire argument you make, the complete picture of what you see and wish to do. You say that I contradict the Scriptures, and to an extent that is true. But only to a point. I do not reject the validity of them, only the way we have been taught to interpret them. The Scriptures are old, far older than any of your Nations have existed in their current forms. Long before the Federation was a federation, long before the Caldari or Matari had managed to drag themselves up out of the mud and rock of their worlds and had gained civilization again, the Scriptures were there. But they are read by Men, and written by Men, and interpreted by Men, and yes, edited by Men. Men are flawed and susceptible to those flaws. They see and hear what they want to, not necessarily what is there. Just as I believe that there are many paths to God, I believe that the dogma of the Faith is not the summation of the Faith. You need to learn this. What has been preached and taught is not necessarily what it was supposed to be. In addition to that, Man is constantly learning, both of himself and of God. Our understanding of God changes, and when it does, the Faith must change to reflect that. So, yes, I consider myself to be of the Faith. Yes, I love God and His Works. Yes, I can and will continue to tell others of how I see Him and how I feel He wishes to be seen. I am not a hypocrite, though some may label me a heretic. In the end, God will Judge me, and frankly, His opinion of me is of far greater concern to me that yours. I simply wished to give you some hope, maybe some comfort. I see that you are not ready for that yet. When you are ready, when you perhaps cannot understand why you feel such turmoil and pain; when even the killing and death of others cannot keep these feelings at bay any more, look me up. Perhaps then, you will be able to gain comfort and solace from my words. One last thing. God is by definition, infinite and omnipotent. Can a collection of old books, however sacred and special, really hold the sum total of that? Can any single lesson or set of finite lessons convey the magnitude of His Power and Glory? That you would accept that they can somehow contain God, or define Him is not surprising, yet is also disappointing. God cannot be totally understood, ever. God cannot be restricted to the lessons of a book, whatever its provenance. God just Is. He needs no other justification, or reason. He Willed it, and so It Is. I could tell you of much, but doubt you would listen. I will always be here however, so if you wish to truly understand God and His Will, contact me. Much like Him, I will always be there for you or anyone, so long as I draw breath. May you one day know Peace, Pilots, my thoughts are with some of you, always.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:03:00 - [39] Originally by: Veron Daerth Pilot Starforged, you do realize that after centuries of interbreeding, most slaves dont have a homeland? That you have done a fair job of destroying the culture of billions is not too good an argument in favor of your methods. Originally by: Veron Daerth About 1/3 of all Matari were eventually taken as slaves by the Empire. Most of them remain in the Empire. Point of fact, nearly all were taken into slavery, and so far two thirds have won back our freedom. We still have some distance to go before we're done. Originally by: Veron Daerth (Miscellaneous specious arguments.) Ignored. Originally by: Veron Daerth Are you going to just take all that slaves and leave the empire with a totally wrecked economy? If so, you are just setting the stage for the same thing (slavery) to happen all over again, because if you think that the Amarrians will all starve because they cant get enough food produced to feed them all, you understand very little about human behavior. I tear up every time I consider the possibility of minor hardships on the part of slavers. I really do. And then I think to myself "Self, perhaps those slavers could get out and ... I dunno, plow the fields or something. Or maybe hire people to work, offering actual money in exchange for services." I realize that these are radical concepts, but they are concepts that the rest of the cluster's population had come to terms with back before the first Amarrian who needed cheap labor claimed 'god' told him to go out and Reclaim. Originally by: Veron Daerth The Ni-Kunni will probably be the first to go back "under the lash", but there arent enough of them to do anything more than make a stopgap measure. At some point the Amarrians will come after someone, and then its going to get ugly. As an interesting aside, while the phrase "we come for our people" is useful, and largely accurate because the vast majority of slaves are our kin, when we talk about 'ending slavery' we are equal opportunity in our definition of slavery. We want it all gone. Originally by: Veron Daerth This could be avoided if the rest of the cluster all committed capital and materials to upgrading the economy and production capacity of the Amarrians to something approaching a more modern, industrial complex. But that would be... costly, to say the least. Not only costly, but more than a little unlikely. The good news is that hardships purify the soul and bring you closer to 'god', don't they? Quote: Or, the slaves could be granted common citizenship in the Empire and fully integrated into the populace. Those that wished to leave could do so when they could afford it, and in the meantime would enjoy all the rights and responsibilities of Imperial Citizens. Oddly enough, I'm not opposed to allowing freed slaves to choose to stay as free citizens, so long as each and every one was given an unencumbered choice. By this I mean that slavery must be banned entirely, and freed slaves must be guaranteed the resources to return to Matari space should they wish to (no financial influence on their decision), and must be free of the influence of Vitoxin, other drugs, implants, etc. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2008.07.25 22:08:00 - [40] Originally by: Sepherim It is simple. The Minmatarr turn back and head to the Republic. Require the ressources that the Elders stole from them in order to build their fleet, and with it they build schools, housing, hospitals, and so on. Once the virus of slavery is eradicated and the Amarrians give up their dreams of conquest, then it will be a pleasure to reallocate our assets to peaceful pursuits for the first time since the Amarr brought bloodshed to our homeworlds a millenia ago... I can only hope to live so long... -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!

Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.26 02:12:00 - [41] Pilot Starforged, I was not attempting to argue for or against slavery, since I dont think we will ever agree on its pros and cons. In fact, I find the current system of slavery in the Empire to be self destructive and detrimental to what should be our true calling, which is spreading the Word of God to the peoples of the galaxy. Again, I think that we also agree that the choice to accept His Word should be a choice of acute personal importance, and should not be forced on anyone. You cannot force anyone to love anything, that must come from within themselves. God gave us free will for a reason, and that reason is to separate those who accept Him from those who do not. The choice is ultimately yours. Also, I was not seriously suggesting that the nations of EvE gather their combined resources and "upgrade" the Amarrian economy. Of course this idea is ludicrous. The four Nations can barely afford to maintain what they currently have, let alone dedicate their resources to anyone else. All I was doing was pointing out that if you try to force the Amarr to simply "repatriate" the slaves, or to give them some sort of mass compensation or to somehow compensate the Minmatar, then you will cripple and impoverish the Empire and will create a situation in which the Empire will be left with a choice of conquer everything in sight or die of starvation. That path leads to the destruction of all of us. What I have been trying to say from the very beginning, since this war began, is that you and those you support will NEVER get all that you want even if you win the war. It is not possible. Equally, the Amarr will HAVE to change, and let go of some of the traditions and alter the dogma of the Faith in order to survive. Slavery is one of those things that will have to be let go of, though it will have to be phased out over time. If it isnt, you just create the social and economic conditions that will lead to more slavery and death. Let me put it another way. A person has a heart attack, what your solution is akin to is operating and removing the blocked arteries and the damaged tissues. This will save the patient, but he will just have another heart attack later if he doesnt eat and exercise right. If you address only one aspect of the problem, the remaining aspects of the problem will ensure that it occurs again. The goal is to eliminate or reduce all the factors that lead to the problem (the problem being slavery). As to the rest of your thoughts, I agree with you in principle on the matter of allowing the slaves to return to Matari space should they so wish. Where we differ is that I would see this done in a gradual manner, so as to not, again, bring about a situation where the Empire will have to choose between self destructing and attacking everyone else to survive. The issues surrounding the usage of Vitoxin will probably never be totally resolved. Perhaps a supply of it and the information on its creation can be provided to the research staff of the Ushra'Khan or Electus Matari and they can synthesize an effective long term antidote, I believe one of these organizations recently published a paper on this issue. I hope that someday we can come to an accord on this, but in all honesty it probably wont be anytime soon. Until then, I will keep you in my thoughts and will pray for you and your comrades. God go with you all.
Vikarion Caldari Onyx Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.26 03:17:00 - [42] Edited by: Vikarion on 26/07/2008 03:17:41 Originally by: Illuvian I really am getting tired of this make it up as we go along approach to argument, do you really think this stuff up, do you have a problem with cognizance or is this sarcasm that has gone over my head? "Make it up as we go?" Let's see, Illuvian, which facts did I make up? That there have been a large quantity of Minmatar pilots calling for the destruction or near-destruction of Amarr? Oh, wait, that's actually true. The fact that the Amarr tried to cover up the Starkmanir massacre? No, that's true too. The fact that Ushra'Kahn hasn't said anything condemnatory about these genocidal maniacs...well, actually, I'm right on that one as well. Just read the forums - or did you forget to do your research before accusing me of "making it up as I go"? Originally by: Illuvian Many of our fighters call for genocide? See this is funny, because let's be honest here, I spend a lot more talking to them than you do. As far as I have seen there are approximately five pod pilots on here that won't be quiet about wanting to burn Amarr, others use have various war cries but don't intend genocide and some are just bloody nutters. Out of all of them, at no time do they represent a majority or even a legitimate minority view. Interesting. Have you actually tried counting these proponents? There seems to me to be a good deal more than five. And considering the fact that most pilots DON'T post on the Galnet forums, I think it's safe to say that there is a fairly good-size minority, if not a majority. Consider the pilots in Outbreak alone, for example. Originally by: Illuvian Some of us are angry, only God can imagine why. What do you bring here? Insults. I don't care why you are angry. I'm not your therapist and you couldn't pay me enough to take the job. Originally by: Illuvian "Is it too much of a stretch to suppose from there that, were the Empire to fall, you would turn on the State as a "supporter" of the Amarr? I think not." You think poorly, I know I'm not the only TLF member that thinks the Caldari could be valued allies but all this hyperbole and speculation from people not even involved grows tiring. You may think that the Minmatar and Caldari could be wonderful allies, and, frankly, I agree. If anything, we share more similarities with the Matari than the Amarrians - both oppressed by Empires who fanatically hold to certain beliefs, utterly convinced that they are right, both rebelling eventually against such repression. But that's not the point. The point is that, with victory much more in sight for the Minmatar freedom fighters, the mood seems to be altering to one of revenge, rather than freeing slaves. And Ushra'Kahn's definition of "aiding slavers" is so broad that the State is included in it. -------- Innocence Proves Nothing Kill Them All!
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.07.26 03:50:00 - [43] Actually, I don't have much time for a long reply and to answer each argument on its own. I will just point one thing though: the original topic of this discussion, as started by Mr Stuart, was to try to find peaceful solutions to the conflict. We amarrians have entered the discussion and offered diferent options, more feasable or less. Other races have done so too. The Minmatarr have only claimed that they won't finish until they're done killing. With pretier words, or more direct ones, but in the end, what they say is that they are not willing for peace. That sais it all. We will see what happens if they ever lose their aproximately 5 to 3 men proportion advantage. Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
BloodBird Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.27 18:35:00 - [44] Edited by: BloodBird on 27/07/2008 18:37:16 Originally by: Sepherim Actually, I don't have much time for a long reply and to answer each argument on its own. I will just point one thing though: the original topic of this discussion, as started by Mr Stuart, was to try to find peaceful solutions to the conflict. We amarrians have entered the discussion and offered diferent options, more feasable or less. Other races have done so too. The Minmatarr have only claimed that they won't finish until they're done killing. With pretier words, or more direct ones, but in the end, what they say is that they are not willing for peace. That sais it all. We will see what happens if they ever lose their aproximately 5 to 3 men proportion advantage. Wrong. If you read Mr. Starforged's message you will notice that, if the Amarr were to halt the reclaiming and start a program, to gradually free or integrate all slaves and end the slavery system, then, to him at the least, the war would be over practically overnight. He also mentioned, in reply to the accusation that they hide or condone the ones in their ranks that wish genocide, that those would probobly go on even when UNITY and all others stood down, their jobs done. In effect his message was thus; "We (UNITY) will carry on until these terms (se above) are met, but there would likely be those that carry on regardless." At least, that is how I read his message, you will likely need to ask him in person to make sure. On a side-note, Mr. Starforged's words soothed my guilt a little, as, in contrast to Mr. Thrace, he seems willing to NOT kill any Amarrian just for being Amarrians, and will indeed stop once his goals are reached. At least, that's how it seems... I just hope I'm right, the words of Mr. Thrace earlier in another tread rubbed me in a very bad way in regard to UNITY. Originally by: Orun Erajen Originally by: Veron Daerth From what I understand, the Intaki are pretty laid back, so he might fit in, but would he really ever get to understand their culture? I feel bound to inform you that our culture is not so nuanced or elitist that it is either impossible for outsiders to understand, nor disdainful and inhospitable towards those who do not understand it. We Intaki have always prided ourselves on being able to understand other points of view and other cultures. This is very true. On Intaki at least, it is very likely any former slave, regardless of genetics, will be welcome to start his new life, and it wouldn't really be too hard to integrate, beyond learning the language and getting a grasp of the Intaki Culture, among the few others present. Sig source
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.28 20:35:00 - [45] Pilot Bloodbird, I do not doubt your words concerning your culture (I assume it is yours), I was asking if the slave could ever truly become one with it? The life outside the Empire is vastly different than in it. I have lived for some time outside the borders of the Empire and I often feel like an outsider to the culture of the Federation, where I currently reside. So many of your cultures assumptions and actions and ideas seem ... alien... to me. Like I am looking at a painting in a museum and the guide tells me of what it means or represents, and, while I grasp the import of what the guide is saying, I cannot see it in the painting. Perhaps it is just me. Perhaps not. Just some food for thought. God go with you.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2008.07.30 00:22:00 - [46] Originally by: BloodBird On a side-note, Mr. Starforged's words soothed my guilt a little, as, in contrast to Mr. Thrace, he seems willing to NOT kill any Amarrian just for being Amarrians, and will indeed stop once his goals are reached. Yes. Regarding the statements of my brethren ... at the risk of sounding patronizing, it might help if you recognize that it is often useful -- when trying to communicate concisely in brief statement -- to simplify terms and to generalize more than would be considered acceptable in a legal document or contract. A great many people analyze each word independently and treat them as complete blueprints to an entire spectrum of thought process. Some do this intentionally in order to create smear campaigns, but I think you are merely reading too much into what are, in essence, encapsulated thoughts. An example. Let's say that you, as a member of the Federal Defense Union, are asked by a news reporter to state your goals with respect to the Caldari State in five seconds or less. You might respond with something along the lines of "to destroy the Caldari's ability to make war against us". This sounds entirely reasonable in the context of your viewpoint on the war, implying that your goal is the peace that is currently obstructed by those who desire only war. Now your foe's propagandists get to work on that and announce to the world that you clearly intend to personally lobotomize each and every Caldari in the galaxy, even those who fight alongside you for the Federation. "After all", they say, "he said 'Caldari', without specifying only those who are loyal to Heth. And so long as we have the ability to think, pod technology gives us the capability to fight, so clearly those evil Gallente satists mean to lobotomize us all!" Now it's obvious to any reasonable observer in the context of the reporter's question what you meant -- that your opponent is the particular Caldari government that has made war on you, and that it's that government's ability to fight that you aim to eliminate -- but that doesn't matter to the propagandists who benefit from making you look bad. Back to the Ushra'Khan position. Our goal is to eliminate slavery. Period. By whatever means necessary. Note that this is a political goal, which therefore must me interpretted on a political level. Nearly all slavery that exists in the EVE cluster is sponsored by the Amarrian and Khanid Empires. Not counting slaves and non-citizen residents, these empires are nearly exclusively peopled by Amarrian peoples (not just 'True Amarrians', but several Amarrian bloodlines). Conversely, the overwhelming majority of Amarrian people live under and support the laws of these empires, including the Amarrian worship of their 'god' and their religion's support for and practice of slavery. Now we could set our comm systems to system-wide broadcast and shout "Death to all those who, regardless of race, choose to support slavery or regimes -- such as those of the Amarrian and Khanid Empire -- who institutionally support the slavery and oppression of our people, at least until such time as they no longer support slavery, at which point we're perfectly willing to live alongside you in peace!" But frankly, that's (a) likely to finishing transmitting well after the end of the fight, (b) likely to result in the fight tilting against us, and we are distracted by ensuring we include the various sub-clauses instead of concentrating on piloting our ship, and (b) just not very catchy. So instead, we use statements such as "Death to the Imperials" or "Death to the Amarr", which are shorthand, but mean the same thing in the context of our widely publicized goals. Given the demographics of slavery supporters, they are also better than 99% accurate even taken literaly. If you keep in mind the context and go back and read my brother's words as a whole, I think you will find that he is saying the same thing that I did. -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.07.30 04:01:00 - [47] I see where I went wrong. When I say it's as simple as the Amarr setting our people free or being shot until they set out people free I should say. It* is as simple as the Amarr ending** the practice*** of slavery******..... Yeah, that's just painful. This is a gallery of fools with nothing better to do than argue semantics over something so base and simple. The Amarr invaded our worlds to eradicate our culture and enslave our people. The war they started never ended, the Republic does not represent all of us. We wage war upon the Amarr Empire and it's minions until our people are free. If you are seriously still debating this after all these weeks then there is clearly no point in speaking, you are too stupid to understand the most straight forward of words. The case of Amarr Imperial enslavement of other ethnic groups. Simple to understand for a being of average intelligence. Some* solicitors and deniznes of IGS may require assistance. *Some as in not all. In reference to the Amarr Empire, it's allies, subsidiaries, vassal states, subordinates and supporters*. *Usually but not limited to ethnic Amarr, may include Ni-Kunni, Minmatar race traitors, confused Gallente with a thing for older men and Caldari unable to cut it back home. Warning, may contain traces of nuts. **As in not continuing, nor continuing under another name. ***As in carrying out. They have been doing it a while now and should need to practice**** anymore. ****As in to repeat a process in an attempt to learn it and improve upon it. *******The enslavement of any living soul including those coerced by indoctrination, intoxication or any other means. Also extended to those born into slavery. Join Kinda'Shujaa
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army	Posted - 2008.07.30 08:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Bob Stuart Originally by: Rodj Blake A typical Gallentean view that completely misunderstands the situation. Then, Pilot, kindly bring the Burning Light of Truth to illuminate things, such that I might see the True Answer. Let me get this straight, you want to get the true answer by asking here? Any iota of truth will be trampled by loud Tribal bleating and cloacal gallente splutters. Contact us via the 'delictum' channel, and we'll put your facts straight, your original post is acutely riddled with factual inadequacy. Let me save you some time... Don't ever believe a word this idiot says. He is a traitor and a leader of traitors. He is also a monumental liar. Jump Bridges? Shit idea.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.07.30 08:22:00 - [49] Yet, I am still much a better man than than you, Mr Mattduk. San Matari Official forums
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army	Posted - 2008.07.30 08:50:00 - [50] Originally by: Veron Daerth Pilot Kitoba, if you stop reading, you turn from the path of understanding. I may not like everything you say, but I read and listen to it all, so as to know and understand the whole idea you advocate, the entire argument you make, the complete picture of what you see and wish to do. You say that I contradict the Scriptures, and to an extent that is true. But only to a point. I do not reject the validity of them, only the way we have been taught to interpret them. The Scriptures are old, far older than any of your Nations have existed in their current forms. Long before the Federation was a federation, long before the Caldari or Matari had managed to drag themselves up out of the mud and rock of their worlds and had gained civilization again, the Scriptures were there. But they are read by Men, and written by Men, and interpreted by Men, and yes, edited by Men. Men are flawed and susceptible to those flaws. They see and hear what they want to, not necessarily what is there. Just as I believe that there are many paths to God, I believe that the dogma of the Faith is not the summation of the Faith. You need to learn this. What has been preached and taught is not necessarily what it was supposed to be. In addition to that, Man is constantly learning, both of himself and of God. Our understanding of God changes, and when it does, the Faith must change to reflect that. So, yes, I consider myself to be of the Faith. Yes, I love God and His Works. Yes, I can and will continue to tell others of how I see Him and how I feel He wishes to be seen. I am not a hypocrite, though some may label me a heretic. In the end, God will Judge me, and frankly, His opinion of me is of far greater concern to me that yours. I simply wished to give you some hope, maybe some comfort. I see that you are not ready for that yet. When you are ready, when you perhaps cannot understand why you feel such turmoil and pain; when even the killing and death of others cannot keep these feelings at bay any more, look me up. Perhaps then, you will be able to gain comfort and solace from my words. One last thing. God is by definition, infinite and omnipotent. Can a collection of old books, however sacred and special, really hold the sum total of that? Can any single lesson or set of finite lessons convey the magnitude of His Power and Glory? That you would accept that they can somehow contain God, or define Him is not surprising, yet is also disappointing. God cannot be totally understood, ever. God cannot be restricted to the lessons of a book, whatever its provenance. God just Is. He needs no other justification, or reason. He Willed it, and so It Is. I could tell you of much, but doubt you would listen. I will always be here however, so if you wish to truly understand God and His Will, contact me. Much like Him, I will always be there for you or anyone, so long as I draw breath. May you one day know Peace, Pilots, my thoughts are with some of you, always. Jesus, you are one verbose SOB. You're heart's in the right place, but I sure wish you'd reign it in a bit... yawn. Otherwise, it sure is refreshing to see an Amarr admit to the fact that slavery is wrong. Jump Bridges? Shit idea.

Mattduk Gallente Universal Army	Posted - 2008.07.30 09:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Yet, I am still much a better man than than you, Mr Mattduk. See what I mean? Jump Bridges? Shit idea.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.07.31 15:41:00 - [52] Originally by: Veron Daerth Pilot Kitoba, if you stop reading, you turn from the path of understanding. I may not like everything you say, but I read and listen to it all, so as to know and understand the whole idea you advocate, the entire argument you make, the complete picture of what you see and wish to do. You say that I contradict the Scriptures, and to an extent that is true. But only to a point. I do not reject the validity of them, only the way we have been taught to interpret them. You probably won't be surprised that the only thing about the scriptures that matters to me is their interpretation and the atrocities committed in their name. You're preaching to the wrong people: turn your face towards the Empire.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.31 22:30:00 - [53] Pilot Kitoba, what you suggest would, in all probability, get me executed for heresy. I am not blind to the irony of this situation. I seek to save Amarr from itself, but must do so circumspectly, and in such manner as the Empire never knows. If it did, it would kill me. How foolish it must seem to you that I seek to save something that would destroy me if it knew what I was doing. How you must laugh to yourself, and possibly revile and ridicule me. I dont know if you would do that yourself, but it has happened, and others have hastened to point this out to me. In the end all that is meaningless. What I seek to do for Amarr is between myself and God, in my opinion. I cant preach to the Empire, not really, not wholly. But here, here I can change a few minds, perhaps. Here in this summit, I may shed a bit of light in an otherwise dark and lonely place. God calls us all to act. Great actions and small actions. Things that will be known for ages to come, and some that will go unnoticed save for a few. There is nobility in the actions of the Ushra'Khan and others amongst the freedom fighters. There is also mobility in the actions and words of others. Maybe mine are among them, maybe not. I preach and talk and talk and preach. Many of you sigh and ignore me. Some ridicule me. I care not. But some... some of you do not. Some of you listen, and think, and understand. Some among you consider, and ponder a different path than those laid out for you so easily by others. My words may do little more than slightly dent the wall of hate and rhetoric and bile that has come between us all, if that. But dent it I will, today, tomorrow, and the next day. Maybe someday, someone stronger, nobler, more pure than myself will finally breach that wall, and forge a peace among us that will finally last and bring harmony and peace to our universe. And maybe that tiny dent I put in that wall will make it just that much easier to bring down. Pilot Mattduk, I apologize for boring you, but then, I am Amarrian. And exiled or not, I like to preach and like to wax on eloquently as I can about what interests me. I pray, bear with it, and if you cant, why, just skip to the next communication. I assure you sir, that I do not hold it against you. May the Strength of the Lord carry you in times of weakness and doubt.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:00:00 - [54] Originally by: Mattduk Otherwise, it sure is refreshing to see an Amarr admit to the fact that slavery is wrong. I think we should lock him up together with MirrorGod for a few days and force them to get over that god part. Very interesting things could come out of that. Maybe it's the only possibility to get guts into Veron and spirituality back into Mirror, me means.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:17:00 - [55] Originally by: Veron Daerth harmony and peace What you call harmony and peace are but aspects of harmony and peace. There is no total harmony as well as there is no total dissonance, and there is no total peace as well as there is no total war: Each of them includes the other. Without them, there'd be nothing: No process, and thus no being where we are right now. Discord that does not resolve to unity is confusion or madness, and concord that does not express itself in multitude is tyranny or blindness.
Drakonus Laerdon Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 00:09:00 - [56] The problem alot of us have for you, Mr. Daerth, is that you pretend to be all caring and open-minded (like the Gallente filth), but in reality your preaching is nothing more than arrogance. You claim to be trying to "save Amarr from itself" as if our Holy Empire were your lost, wayward child: and you the kind, benevolent father. You talk down to us in a manner that does not befit your station as a Holder. You are not the Emperor, or any high-ranking member of the Church, yet in your hubris you act as if you are THE arbitor of God's Will. This is what brands you as a heretic. We all have our place in His Universe, and you supercede yours. Beware those whose minds are constantly open: their brains tend to fall out over time. You do not know the Will of God any more than I do: the difference between us is that I remain a humble servant of His Empire, blessed by our Scriptures. Meditate some more on this. --------------- Non Nobis, Domine, Non Nobis, Sed nomini tuo da gloriam.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.08.05 00:21:00 - [57] Edited by: Kitoba on 05/08/2008 00:22:29 Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon Beware those whose minds are constantly open: their brains tend to fall out over time. Funny. Actually, splendid. I suspect you wanted to write "Beware of those...", but then your sentence only makes sense the way you actually wrote it. "Beware, those whose minds are constantly open: their [the one's with closed minds, e.g. Amarrian slaver scum] brains tend to fall out over time." Behold the wisdom of the Goddess speaking through you. I really do enjoy her jokes. And yes, I meditated on it :)
Drakonus Laerdon Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.05 00:26:00 - [58] Originally by: Kitoba Edited by: Kitoba on 05/08/2008 00:22:29 Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon Beware those whose minds are constantly open: their brains tend to fall out over time. Funny. Actually, splendid. I suspect you wanted to write "Beware of those...", but then your sentence only makes sense the way you actually wrote it. "Beware, those whose minds are constantly open: their [the one's with closed minds, e.g. Amarrian slaver scum] brains tend to fall out over time." Behold the wisdom of the Goddess speaking through you. I really do enjoy her jokes. And yes, I meditated on it :) Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation other than to play around with semantics? Go back to picking the lice from your comrades' heads. Leave the adult conversation to the adults. --------------- Non Nobis, Domine, Non Nobis, Sed nomini tuo da gloriam.
Kitoba Minmatar Legion of Dynamic Discord	Posted - 2008.08.05 00:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation Not to Amarrian discussions, no: You people are desperately more in need for destructive formulations. But in general: Yes, sure. I'm only posting constructively. Just read my post again and again until you get it.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.05 06:27:00 - [60] I am afraid I missed your reference to MirrorGod and myself being locked into a room. You seemed to refer to me being gutless? Did I misinterpret that? Lord Laerdon, I assure you that I do not know God's Will. He has not seen fit to send a Sephrim to my bedside to inform me of it. Barring that, I have to look at a situation, a problem rather, that seems to have no solution. For three hundred years, we have tried to enlighten the Matari people. We have made little to no headway. True, some of the Ammatar remain loyal, but can we truly rely on that? The question remains, why after so many centuries, have the Matari not been Reclaimed and brought into the fold of God? Has it been lack of effort on the part of the Empire? I would say not. Perhaps it is because the Matari are not amenable to being enlightened? This is, I believe, the answer. So, how can you change that? Well, slavery has been tried... for centuries. Arguably, it has failed. So then what. We cant just give up, we must try a different way. Surely, so long as the unenlightened come to know and love Him, God does not care about the means we use to accomplish this? So long as we, the Amarr, continue to bring more of the peoples of New Eden into the Faith, and truly into it, we fulfill our task given to us by the Almighty. Maybe I am wrong, who can say. We are all of us flawed. Perhaps my flaws are made manifest here, in my ideals. God will Judge that. I am confident that I have not misunderstood His ultimate goal, the enlightenment of all His Children. I am not so sure, however, in the path I have chosen. Time will tell. One other thing. I do not seek to demean you, or anyone. I do not seek to insult you or to "talk down" to you. And I do care, greatly. I am not anyones father, well, at least not anyone in the Empire's father. You choices will, inevitably, be your own. God will also Judge them, and His is the ultimate judgement. I do not ask that you seek to please me, or to conform to me, only that you think. Remember, a closed mind cannot hear the whisper of God's Wisdom. Regardless, may He bring you wonder and joy in full measure. ((OOC: My RL profession is religious in nature, and authoritative by necessity. This may have colored some of my posts, and I didnt intend for my character to come across as, well, patronizing or demeaning. If so, thats my mistake, I will try to keep it a bit more separated. The reason I chose Amarr is because of the fascinating dichotomy of its religion as stated, and as it is practiced.))

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