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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Stab Wounds
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:23:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
boohoo my overpowered nano ship has been nerfed.
your stuff give it.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:23:00 -
[62]
Also, this is the end of people actually wanting to scout in gangs, every time you jump into a camp you will die. No MWDing sniper fleets out of bubbles on jump in, this + cyno jammers is just ******ed. If you jump a similar sized sniper fleet into a bubble sniper fleet, you're going to lose a lot more than you normally would on jump in as the game stands now, and even when you do it now its a considerable risk.
This is not only nerfing small gang nano warfare, this is nerfing fights in general. Even less people will think "sod it lets jump in" because everyone will die. --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
Sid Zero
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Sid Zero on 25/07/2008 11:25:34
Originally by: Dr Slaughter Great. Fantastic. Let's all go back to blob in sniper fleets cos that's so much more fun.
No no wait wait! Lets go GATECAMPING! YAY! Nano and cloaking were the only ways of getting through a gatecamp, and it's only a matter of time until cloaking is nerfed to hell too! Weee!
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lt Angus and as said earlier this makes arazu the new rapier
When DT ends, I am buying them all. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[65]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Lt Angus Sounds good overall, but feel it might nerf blaster ships more then speed ships
On the other hand, if you fit a warp scrambler and stasis webifier, the overall speed reduction is much greater than 90%. That is, if your target is using a MWD not an afterburner.
But this is something we'll be keeping a close eye on.
Some quick observations-
Blaster ships, which are already slower in the game than they ever have been (on average) due to the current most effective setups being lots of plates and armor rigs (both providing speed penalties) will be even slower, due to normalizing MWD speeds across the board.
Then we have max web effectiveness reduced to 50-60%, to the point that blasters will never be able to track targets well enough to hit because of how broken the tracking model is. Once you get close enough to use blasters, the target is either still and you're hitting, or it's moving, and you're not. There is no middle ground. So even a slight increase in transversal equals zero effective DPS.
Ships with 'extra' mid slots, like say, the Claw, will theoretically be able to mount a 24km warp disruptor and then a 7.5km warp scrambler that kills an MWD. Once that warp scram is on the target, it's dead in the water. Anyone want to guess as to the price speculation of ships with extra mids? Maybe the Myrmidon might be useful once again. Hmm, Sac and Ishtar also have extra mids... Broadsword... Phobos...
I see blaster ships being crushed by these changes, missile ships buffed, a LOT, lasers improving due to blaster ships being reduced to almost zero, and speed fit ships benefiting greatly, as nothing will really change to their overall effectiveness, save more vulnerability to missiles. They won't be decreased in speed enough to be bothered by drones. Guns still won't track them. Only missiles will improve against nano ships. And if no nano ship will come within 15-17km of a ship for fear of being webbed, how do you figure that a 7.5km MWD killing warp scram is going to get any closer to said ship? Magic?
These changes will affect the slower (i.e. 'normal') ships the most, and affect the speed fit ships the least, even though speed fit ships will be showing the largest total performance change. An Ishtar going 3800m/sec can afford to lose 1000m/sec off the top and still perform very well. A Blasterthron going 1000m/sec after accelerating for 30 seconds can't afford to lose 100 or even 50m/sec off of it's top speed.
With lasers much improved since the last patch with the EM resist nerf, you might as well just remove blasters from the game entirely. There isn't enough of a DPS difference between the two to warrant the use of blasters once you consider the improved range and tracking of lasers, and the lack of ammo consumption.
Blaster ships have been nerfed every patch since RMR. This will probably be the end of them for good.
P.S.
50-60% max web? WTF? Everyone will just MWD/AB back to the gate and escape unless double webbed ffs. Now I'll have to fit a second web or a 7.5km scram on my Hype instead of a sensor booster. Yuck.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:25:00 -
[66]
With AB being *****ble at the same time than MWD and the Webifier nerf, it is pretty clear that CCP want dedicaced speed-tankers to be really close, orbiting 2km away, slowed by the web but not enough to really take damage from the main weapons of hteir target.
The added utility of warp scramblers also sound very nice, and disruptors won't be a no-brainer choice anymore.
The nanoers will absolutely hate having to choose between MWD, Web, disruptor, scrambler, cap booster, and their lover shield extenders, tought. The day of the "fragile" speed tanker having 9k passive shield are coming to an end, it seems. Can't say it's a bad thing.
With that many fundamental changes, there will be a lot of trial-and-error involving both sides of the issue, before everyone know the rules backward and forward. It will be interesting... ------------------------------------------
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:26:00 -
[67]
This is ******ed.
Straight up. It's becoming a trend, i hate to say it, that the some of the most recent changes to the game only promote large 0.0 allainces and more blobbing. Speed -is- Guerilla warfare.
Just no.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Raquel Trotter
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lt Angus if they are faster before the nerf they are faster after the nerf, overall speed is preety meaningless, relitive speed is what counts and it isnt changing much
Well then they had better also be slowing down the speed of missiles too then I hope. What will be the point of flying a vaga if you will take almost full damage from missiles and most like get pwned by a T1 fitted drake?
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Spermcell Giganticus
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[69]
haha...close range inties...anyone??
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation. |
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Phrixus Zephyr
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
An explination on how a small gang is suppose to escape from the all too common jumpbridgeing titan that DD's you once you've aggroed and are bubbled.
If you're flying against an alliance known for using its Titans at every opportunity. Ie, all of them. Your only options should you agro and get bubbed are speed and BS. BS gangs generally arn't small, they're certainly not guerilla and they more often than not get caught or trapped by the local blob.
People complain about speed but 95% of the time its the only realistic option if you want to fly with less than 15-20 people and not expect certain death.
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Brayiel
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:27:00 -
[72]
Logistics > *
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:28:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tar om Will Rapier/Huginn receive an increased bonus to counter the drop in module stats? Or will they become useless?
Useless.. fortunately I've been training other race cruisers to V... Rabies is unexpected ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ dealing with the UNDERPANTS of eve since 2004 |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:28:00 -
[74]
What troubles me is that it's going to be very hard to strike a balance between points 1 and 5, i.e.
Quote:
- Gurrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
- Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
If you use a MWD, you become very vulnerable as soon as you get within web/scrambler range and your ship will probably be caught. This is more or less the same as now. If you use an AB, you won't get away fast enough from people with MWDs, so you can't guarantee that you'll be able to withdraw unless you manage to get a scrambler on every opposing ship. But even then, you'll still be within disruptor range, so you'll need to jam people as well if you want to get away.
Orbiting at ~20km and being able to glide out of point range will still be possible, but at the rather reduced speeds it'll be much more dangerous than at present and you probably won't be able to do as much damage before disengaging. But now there's the additional risk that an inty with a scram + web catches you and disables your ship for slower people to pick off. I wonder whether this is something that AFs might be suited to, with a few bonus changes? i.e. close range tacking with scram + web rather than inty-style tackling with range-bonused disruptors?
Question: will WCS make MWDs more resistant to scramming? If so, how much and in what way? Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Zaskarr
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:28:00 -
[75]
Originally by: XxAngelxX stuff
"Due to the slight reduction in battleship MWD speed, the radius of the large mobile warp disruptors might get reduced"
__________________ How do I shot web? |
Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni While I won't scream at the top of my lungs that all these changes are bad, it would be nice if Nozh could explain how they think these changes will achieve all the speed goals. Particularly I'd like to see how you think you'll achieve the last;
Originally by: "Nozh" Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
In the current game state, this is mainly achieved with nano setups, which enable you to travel fast, move into enemy territory, hit targets of opportunity, and when the inevitable blob arrives, you run like hell. This is pretty much the only way small corps and gangs have to hurt larger enemies, and it's more or less the only viable solo tactic. Gatecamping also works to a certain point, but you're hardly mobile, so it's not exactly Guerilla Warfare.
There are currently quite a few effective counters to speed tanking ships, chiefly Minmatar Recons and neutralizing ships. The problem is that the people don't want to sacrifice an alt or a corpmate in a recon with webs, or fitting that heavy neut that will save their battleships, because it makes them less effective at ratting or whatever they do. Well, welcome to our world. I'd love to have more DPS on my Vagabond, but it's a trade-off. I have virtually no tank but my speed, and if you use tactics that have been debated to death, you can at least make me run.
As to risk vs. reward; I run around in a ship worth 3-400 mill, with a billion worth of implants in my head, I'm willing to take the risk, while the "zoot zoot, omg speed tanking is lame"-crowd is unwilling to sacrifice a highslot that can save their ass.
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
boohoo my overpowered nano ship has been nerfed.
your stuff give it.
Thank you for adding that very valuable comment to the debate.
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Eran Laude
Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Eran Laude on 25/07/2008 11:29:12
Originally by: Drenan AT LAST!!
/me sits down with popcorn to watch the flood of nano*** tears that will be generated by this wonderful news from CCP.
Three cheers for Nozh!
This.
Good that nano***s get what they deserve TBH
But there is this nagging concern that regular blasterboats will be hit, when the real aim is to hit nanotanks and not blasterboats.
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Deros
Minmatar Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Shadowsword
...The nanoers will absolutely hate having to choose between MWD, Web, disruptor, scrambler, cap booster, and their lover shield extenders, tought. The day of the "fragile" speed tanker having 9k passive shield are coming to an end, it seems. Can't say it's a bad thing...
right, so you now will have a 'nano'ship in at 2k webbed, so doing 50-60% of its speed. already being hit by missiles, already being tracked by guns, with no HP buffer.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:29:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
Also why wasn't there anything about missions, that is what eve is about. missions.
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agent apple
FIRMA
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:30:00 -
[80]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
Thanks so much for this CCP!
I for one welcome our new 30man drake gang overlords.
Stealth Caldari boost
Well done CCP you just killed the last modi****of skill in the game, now we can all fly round in l33t 500man gangs and those pesky nano ships will damn well die when we command it.
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Mitsuni Abashadoni
Minmatar The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:31:00 -
[81]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Originally by: Mitsuni Abashadoni
Please CCP; at least explain how you want to achieve viable guerilla warfare with these changes, because as I see it, you're about to kill the last small gang warfare tactic there is.
The same way as before. You'll still be considerably faster when fitting for speed, but just not eight times faster than normal MWD speed.
I also want to point out that this change doesn't necessarily mean your ship will go slower when fitting a single MWD, in fact many ships are being boosted in that regard.
Just wait for the changes to hit singularity and draw your conclusions from there rather than speculation.
I guess I will - please poke the test server Devs and make sure the Singularity database is up to speed :)
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Chi Prime
Body Count Inc. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:31:00 -
[82]
I for one is very happy to see these changes. -
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:31:00 -
[83]
As always with every nerf, its adapt or quit time.
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XxAngelxX
Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:33:00 -
[84]
Also lol, while we're at it, lets nerf carriers and let them only field 5 drones --------------------------------------
Dance Puppets, Dance |
ian666
Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:33:00 -
[85]
Edited by: ian666 on 25/07/2008 11:34:53 this all is simply stupid.
You talking that polycarbon or snakes are so good, but NOT everyone is a CCP worker and can generate every equipment he want for free. Normal players buying implants for 3b isks, rigs with ridicious cost of a tier 1 bs. Faction mwd, booster? ffs how many players using that.
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:35:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Sirial Soulfly As always with every nerf, its adapt or quit time.
Oh yeah that's fine, we'll adapt. Except adapting in this case means having bigger numbers, or not engaging.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Lily Cole
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:35:00 -
[87]
Somebody want to make a Marmite style CCP NOZH "Love him or Hate him" sig? I'd do it, but you'd just discover something else I suck at. |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:35:00 -
[88]
I can see an issue with fleet snipers in a bubble getting murdered if they're fitting MWD's as any enemy support fleet is just going to shoe horn as many warp scramblers on frigates and cut out as many mwd's as possible. This leaves you with BS with AB trying to cover 20km to get out of large bubbles and suffering a lot more as xxangelsxx said.
Cutting web effectiveness as well is interesting on first observation, and apart from the bubble situation the warp scramble killing AB is going to be interesting.
I will say that I can still see strategies for engaging and using speed to your advantage still but it will require more range planning and you will have to keep moving the enemy to range whilst engaging. It wont simply be possible to burn in vs a larger enemy group and unless they're very specifically set up, be able to just burn out if you're the one taking aggro.
I will look forward to play testing and I doubt the initial plan will be the final implementation as there are simply too many things being changed and some things will need fine tuning but yeah, not too upset by the suggested change. :)
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MirrorGod
Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
Yeah let's throw low-sec piracy out the window too, great idea.
Recruitment: [ANTI]
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Lt Angus
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.25 11:38:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Sid Zero I have a suggestion for keeping Guerilla warfare tactics viable, even making it more viable, with the proposed nano nerf.
If speed is nerfed, gatecamping should be nerfed too. 1) double lock time at gates 2) remote sensor boosters are disabled at gates 3) warp core stabilisers get a revamp: instead of making a ship completely immune to scrambling, they introduce a delay before scrambling kicks in. And throw away the ridiculous drawbacks currently associated with them - gimping your setup by dedicating 1 or 2 slots to these modules is already enough.
why? this change makes escaping camps even easier, 50% webs at a gate camp, good luck getting any kills
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
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