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Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 01:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Firstly I know everything is subject to change. I just wanted to see what other people thought about this specific piece of the change.
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Q: can we opt out for skills we don't want during the reimbursement process? A: well, again, it depends on how it is done. We may just bluntly give all four variants at V if you had battlecruiser V for example, or maybe require that you also add the relevant Cruiser skill trained at level 3 to be eligible. On the latter case, just don't train the cruiser 3 skill, and you should not receive the new racial battlecruiser at 5. Not sure why one would do that however, it's like skipping free candy or cake while visiting your grandma.
Example: If we go for option 1: you will get Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar Battlecruiser skills at 5 if you previously had the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5. If we go for option 2: you will get Amarr Battlecruiser skill at 5 only if you previously fulfilled all conditions to fly Amarr Battlecruisers, which means having the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5, PLUS the Amarr Cruiser at 3. To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan.
I know a lot of people (myself included) are purists or are pretty darn proud of their skill sheets. One might say a tad OCD. So if CCP did go with option 1 instead of option 2, Would it be a deal breaker?
Personally I made this character for (lol)RP reasons to suddenly have Amarr BC4 Minmatar BC4 floating there with absolutely no support skills and no intention of every being trained would absolutely crush me, given how much time I've put into the character, not just playing but backstory and all that stuff.
So thoughts ladies and gentlemen. For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
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Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Exhale.
146
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 03:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Just when i thought i'd seem it all, here is someone actually whining about getting free SP... Do you stay up at night thinking about things to complain about or is it a natural skill?
PS: feel free to petition CCP to pass your unwanted SP my way. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
546
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 09:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
OP is not the first to complain about skills they didn't want.
Some people want the ability to delete skills with no reimbursement.
I'm not thrilled about the proposed method, as it is unfair to people that don't have Destroyer 5 and Battlecruiser 5 trained. |
Vito Antonio
State War Academy Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2012.03.19 11:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
I wish for a new EWAR ship that will forcefully inject random skills into your enemy |
Pyrosomniac
VC Academy
12
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Posted - 2012.03.19 15:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
I, for one, am happy with the proposed 7m Skill Points I will obtain soon.
I don't see why anyone would not be. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
56
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 15:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
is there any kind of idea on when this will happen? soon? in the fall? Winter release? On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun |
Pyrosomniac
VC Academy
12
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 15:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:is there any kind of idea on when this will happen? soon? in the fall? Winter release?
Potentially around the next X-pac.
Source
Quote:So, how does all that affect you? Starting with EVE Online: Inferno, we will begin revamping ship classes one after the other, making sure obsolete hulls serve a purpose. This is still in the research phase and constructive feedback is most appreciated while we wait for the next ship balancing blog to come out, dedicated to how such changes will impact the Amarr Empire fleet. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5693
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 15:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Most likely, they'll go for a kind of GÇ£conditionalGÇ¥ upgrade:
If you have [racial] Frigate III+ and Destroyers n, you will receive [racial] Destroyer n. If you have [racial] Cruiser III+ and Battlecruiser n, you will receive [racial] Battlecruiser n.
This gives everyone exactly what they had before and lets people retain their racial specialisations. It's a bit more work for the DB guys to script up than what they originally intended, but going by the discussion in the blog thread, they'll probably do that anyway because it's just a GÇ£cleanerGÇ¥ solution to everyone's wishes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
547
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 16:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Most likely, they'll go for a kind of GÇ£conditionalGÇ¥ upgrade:
If you have [racial] Frigate III+ and Destroyers n, you will receive [racial] Destroyer n. If you have [racial] Cruiser III+ and Battlecruiser n, you will receive [racial] Battlecruiser n.
This gives everyone exactly what they had before and lets people retain their racial specialisations. It's a bit more work for the DB guys to script up than what they originally intended, but going by the discussion in the blog thread, they'll probably do that anyway because it's just a GÇ£cleanerGÇ¥ solution to everyone's wishes. The part that bugs me about it is:
* If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days. * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.
There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.
I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels. |
Chase The Dragon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 20:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's a bit of a Darwin award really, if you know the change (or very similar) will happen and don't bother to train to get the utmost benefit, you get an award for the biggest throwback. |
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Limvala Adur
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 23:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
I can't seem to locate where this information is coming from. I'd like to read all of it, a friend of mine even mentioned changed to capitals in terms of their requirements.
Can someone post a link please? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
547
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 01:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Limvala Adur wrote:I can't seem to locate where this information is coming from. I'd like to read all of it, a friend of mine even mentioned changed to capitals in terms of their requirements.
Can someone post a link please? Dev Blog: Rebalancing EVE, One Ship At A Time http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129
Read the comments. Click on the blue "DEV" ribbons repeatedly to move to the important stuff. |
Limvala Adur
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 07:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Limvala Adur wrote:I can't seem to locate where this information is coming from. I'd like to read all of it, a friend of mine even mentioned changed to capitals in terms of their requirements.
Can someone post a link please? Dev Blog: Rebalancing EVE, One Ship At A Time http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9129Read the comments. Click on the blue "DEV" ribbons repeatedly to move to the important stuff.
Thank you.
Changes seem quite interesting. If anything, I'm looking forward skipping the annoying BS V in order to gain access to the amarr capital line. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 10:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
i read the article and i have to say i really strongly dislike the proposed changes. streamlining imbalances is not always a good idea, because with balance comes boredom. if all ships perform equally well, why even have different ships? this is a problem that other games already have. if you, like me, are an oldschool WoW player, chances are that you quit because over the last years not only items, but whole character classes became too similar and bland (nowadays, a retribution or protection paladin is basically just a warrior with pink armor). same goes for skills. when i was a little kid, i really liked climbing trees and building treehouses. streamlining the ship progression is basically like cutting down a tree and replacing it with a ladder going nowhere. everything becomes predictable and boring
TL;DR: we need the bad ships to appreciate the good ones. balance produces boredom. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5701
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 13:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:The part that bugs me about it is:
* If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days. * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.
There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.
I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels. It's only 21 and 6 days GÇö you already have one of the four skills, remember?
Anyway, the goal from the start has been to make it as non-intrusive a change as possible, and they've quite clearly said that they don't mind handing out a few more SP. The only thing anyone will notice anyway is that for some heavily cross-trained pilots, their clones might become a bit more expensive.
The argument has been made that it screws over new players, but this change also implements some pretty significant SP savings when it comes to training T2 GÇö the more you specialise, the more you save. For instance, even with the increased costs of getting those BC V skills, a player coming into the game after this change will need several millions fewer SP to get all eight command ships than is currently the case (and CSes, requiring all those battlecruiser skills at V, should be the ones suffering the most from this change). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
547
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 15:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:The part that bugs me about it is:
* If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days. * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.
There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.
I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels. It's only 21 and 6 days GÇö you already have one of the four skills, remember? You may have missed my point.
The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation.
If they both got say 4 times more SP, then I wouldn't argue with that. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5702
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 15:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:You may have missed my point.
The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation. Can't say I missed it. I just don't see it as much of a point. So what? Again, the whole point is to make the change minimally intrusive to everyone, and at most, it will make some people have more expensive clones.
It's the ability that matters, not the SP, as has always been the case. The ability does not change. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
68
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 17:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Tippia wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:The part that bugs me about it is:
* If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days. * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.
There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.
I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels. It's only 21 and 6 days GÇö you already have one of the four skills, remember? You may have missed my point. The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation. If they both got say 4 times more SP, then I wouldn't argue with that. so train it to 5 and get all your racial cruisers to 3 before the summer x-pac. you will get max returns.
If you do not than it is your choice in not fulfilling the requirements to receive the free level 5 skills.
If you chose not to fulfill the prerequisites than you will not receive them by choice. Your choice.
Why should you receive the same reward as some one who put the work into training all the prerequisite skills when they did the work and you did not?
They are giving you plenty of notice to get the missing skills up before the expansion comes out. If you choose not to train the perquisites than it is by your choice you will not receive the free level 5 skills. This is in no way the fault of CCP. If you want the skillls train the prerequisites and you will get them. you have several months, enough time to train them up from scratch if needed.
If you can not be bothered than it is entirely your fault when you miss out.
It is completely fair, as you will get the skills or not dependent only on your own choice. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 20:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Tippia wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:The part that bugs me about it is:
* If Destroyers 5 takes 7 days to train, you might be awarded 28 days. * If Destroyers 4 takes 2 days to train, you might be awarded 8 days.
There is a huge disparity between those, because skill levels have progressively more skill points.
I hope CCP scales the skill points and not the skill levels. It's only 21 and 6 days GÇö you already have one of the four skills, remember? You may have missed my point. The person that trained level 5 gets 21 days FREE. The person that trained level 4 gets 6 days FREE. So the level 5 person would get 3.5 times more SP in this situation. If they both got say 4 times more SP, then I wouldn't argue with that.
what the hell is the problem? you got all the time to train everything needed so you get the max reward, if you dont ok but dont nag about what others get while you could also get it.
what i like to know is when will the change be ? dont say before the summer that is a WIDE window i like to know a date like june 1 then i know how to adjust my plans when we have all frigites at 4 and cruisers at 3 and destroyers 5 and battlecruisers 5 do we get the SPs free to distribute how we want or do we get all the racial destroyers at 5 and the racial battlecruisers at 5? |
Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
42
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
You'd think they'd make it far more simple then this.
Give everyone all racial destroyers/battlecruisers to 4 or equivalent sp based on what pre reqs have or have not been met.
This is far less sp given away then the other options since L5 takes the most of the sp.
Then reinburse the sp used in generic destroyer and Battlecruiser so people can respend it as they see fit.
What this would do is allow everyone to still fly the ships they already own since they could train a BC back to 5 with the reinbursement if they were a command ship pilot. All while not stopping players from piloting ships they already could before.
For those who don't have the required skills for the BC either 1 or all; just give them the same amount of sp to use as they see freely.
End result is everyone still gets to fly what they could before. Everyone gets given the same amount of sp. The only issue will be that the commandship skill may or may not end up being able to be trained without racial bc to 5. This can however just be in the requirements to fly the ship in which case that pilot has the sp to make that happen immediately anyway.
One last issue: New players. Let them start with that same sp to spend too. Wouldn't that be nice. New toons start with a mil or 2 sp to get them going in a career path before they quit and never return. Yay learning cliff |
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
550
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 23:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:what the hell is the problem? you got all the time to train everything needed so you get the max reward, if you dont ok but dont nag about what others get while you could also get it.
what i like to know is when will the change be ? dont say before the summer that is a WIDE window i like to know a date like june 1 then i know how to adjust my plans when we have all frigites at 4 and cruisers at 3 and destroyers 5 and battlecruisers 5 do we get the SPs free to distribute how we want or do we get all the racial destroyers at 5 and the racial battlecruisers at 5? Off your meds again?
I personally don't care, as I don't use BC or destroyers very often, though I will be training them to 5 just in case.
However, just as I am concerned about ship balance in EVE, I'm also concerned about balance when it comes to awarding something as important as skill points in EVE. |
Maximillian Dragonard
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
157
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 09:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:You'd think they'd make it far more simple then this. Give everyone all racial destroyers/battlecruisers to 4 or equivalent sp based on what pre reqs have or have not been met. This is far less sp given away then the other options since L5 takes the most of the sp. Then reinburse the sp used in generic destroyer and Battlecruiser so people can respend it as they see fit. What this would do is allow everyone to still fly the ships they already own since they could train a BC back to 5 with the reinbursement if they were a command ship pilot. All while not stopping players from piloting ships they already could before.
I fly all 4 races command ships... without BC V in each race, I would immediately loose access to 3/4 of that ship class. That violates CCP's stated position that "if you fly it now, you'll be able to fly it later". I don't see your idea happening for this very reason. (thankfully!) Reactivated in response to the change in direction.....-á |
Spc One
The Chodak Void Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 15:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
So if you have Destroyers level 5 and Battlecruisers level 5 then you get all destroyers to 5 and all battlecruisers to 5 ?
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Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 16:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Spc One wrote:So if you have Destroyers level 5 and Battlecruisers level 5 then you get all destroyers to 5 and all battlecruisers to 5 ?
how they going to do it exactly is not known but that is the idea in general |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.21 17:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Ellendras Silver wrote:what the hell is the problem? you got all the time to train everything needed so you get the max reward, if you dont ok but dont nag about what others get while you could also get it.
what i like to know is when will the change be ? dont say before the summer that is a WIDE window i like to know a date like june 1 then i know how to adjust my plans when we have all frigites at 4 and cruisers at 3 and destroyers 5 and battlecruisers 5 do we get the SPs free to distribute how we want or do we get all the racial destroyers at 5 and the racial battlecruisers at 5? Off your meds again? I personally don't care, as I don't use BC or destroyers very often, though I will be training them to 5 just in case. However, just as I am concerned about ship balance in EVE, I'm also concerned about balance when it comes to awarding something as important as skill points in EVE.
i tried your meds and well what can i say it had a effect i did not anticipated |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 01:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
I always knew I was going to by a minority but I didn't guess to this extent, always thought there were more of us purist / RP types out there.
I can see Tau's point, about the huge skill shift.
Honestly? I don't see why CCP can't keep the current character with their catch all Destroyer/BC skill, and only have new characters needing the racial BC skills. Surely that would be the least work, everyone happy option. For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
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Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
42
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 02:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maximillian Dragonard wrote:Ireland VonVicious wrote:You'd think they'd make it far more simple then this. Give everyone all racial destroyers/battlecruisers to 4 or equivalent sp based on what pre reqs have or have not been met. This is far less sp given away then the other options since L5 takes the most of the sp. Then reinburse the sp used in generic destroyer and Battlecruiser so people can respend it as they see fit. What this would do is allow everyone to still fly the ships they already own since they could train a BC back to 5 with the reinbursement if they were a command ship pilot. All while not stopping players from piloting ships they already could before. I fly all 4 races command ships... without BC V in each race, I would immediately loose access to 3/4 of that ship class. That violates CCP's stated position that "if you fly it now, you'll be able to fly it later". I don't see your idea happening for this very reason. (thankfully!)
Try this on for size: They don't have to have the same multiplier! The SP given could cover all 4 races to 5 if they do it right.
Currently BC's have 6x multiplier. They could give away enough sp to make it = to 8x mulitplier then make each racial BC a 2x.
Still cuts back on sp give out while allowing those who have L5 trained to get all L5 racials to 5 with thier sp instead. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 08:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:Try this on for size: They don't have to have the same multiplier! The SP given could cover all 4 races to 5 if they do it right. Currently BC's have 6x multiplier. They could give away enough sp to make it = to 8x mulitplier then make each racial BC a 2x. Still cuts back on sp give out while allowing those who have L5 trained to get all L5 racials to 5 with thier sp instead.
Cruisers are rank 5 so BC's ain't gonna be lower. What they could go for: frigs rank 2 dessies rank 2 cruisers rank 4 bc's rank 4 (bs rank 6???) This would be a sp gain for current users of bc skill yet make the game more accessible for low sp/new players. |
Blatant Forum Alt
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
48
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 08:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Ellendras Silver wrote:what the hell is the problem? you got all the time to train everything needed so you get the max reward, if you dont ok but dont nag about what others get while you could also get it.
what i like to know is when will the change be ? dont say before the summer that is a WIDE window i like to know a date like june 1 then i know how to adjust my plans when we have all frigites at 4 and cruisers at 3 and destroyers 5 and battlecruisers 5 do we get the SPs free to distribute how we want or do we get all the racial destroyers at 5 and the racial battlecruisers at 5? Off your meds again? I personally don't care, as I don't use BC or destroyers very often, though I will be training them to 5 just in case. However, just as I am concerned about ship balance in EVE, I'm also concerned about balance when it comes to awarding something as important as skill points in EVE.
So you think it is right for players to LOSE the ability to fly ships they could already be sitting in? wtf?
I can understand why you dont want SP awarded, but this is a FAR better option than stripping players of the ability to fly ships they can already fly. Surely you can agree with that. So unless CCP go back on the skill restructuring, this is their only option.
Unless you have a better idea? |
Pvc Pipe
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 03:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Meh
I am not a purist and I planned to train those skills anyway, but damned if I am not annoyed that I have to get them all trained right away or face loosing potential sp. Pretty much eats up the next month of my skill training time where I would be otherwise training immediately useful things.
I can see what CCP are trying to do here making BC less of a giant training target while balancing other ship classes, but I don't agree with them using skillpoint inflation to help accomplish that goal. It is a direct harm to incoming players and the only way to make it not so is to screw over older players who would no longer be able to fly their command ships, interdictors, etc. |
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Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 09:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Maximillian Dragonard wrote:I fly all 4 races command ships... without BC V in each race, I would immediately loose access to 3/4 of that ship class. That violates CCP's stated position that "if you fly it now, you'll be able to fly it later". I don't see your idea happening for this very reason. (thankfully!)
Really? Who do people keep repeating this thing about not being able to fly all their command ships if they suddenly lost [racial] BC V? It's not even correct.
This isn't how ships and skills work in EVE. Take a look at prereqs for, say, Sleipniers:
Minmatar Cruiser V Command Ships I Heavy Assault Ships IV
This is what you need to sit in a Sleip. Now, you need other skills to be able to inject the required skills, but this is not at all the same thing as actually requiring BC V (that is, having it listed as the root the tree for either a primary, secondary or tertiary skill required). If you lost BC 5 right now, you'd still be able to fly it because you would still have Minmatar Cruiser V, Command Ships I and Heavy Assault Ships IV. Obviously in order to gain the ability to inject Command Ships you needed BC V. There's a big difference between "The ship's Primary Skill required is Battlecruisers V" and "To inject the skill Command Ships I need Battlecruisers V". Remember, there was no mention of the idea that losing BC V "untrains" the skills that depend on it. In fact, CCP even said that "because of how nested skills work", people would still be able to fly their all their CSs and whatnot even if they were to lose the BC V skill for some races. It should be clear by now why that is so.
HOWEVER, if the change were implemented in some way that doesn't give [racial] BC V to all the people who currently have the generic BC V skill trained, suddenly one of the ship skill bonuses for command ships becomes more interesting. For example, Sleip: "Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness per level"
So, people would still be able to fly all 4 races' command ships because see above, but the command ships in the race for which they don't have BC V suddenly become worse than they were. Currently these T1 ship skill bonuses for T2 ships are kind of odd because you already have them at V due to needing V to inject the T2 skillbook (might be better with wording like "ship type bonus" or something and have a flat value), and suddenly they do make a difference for some people (because you're in a ship for which you shouldn't have been able to inject one of the required skills given your current skill set). The difference between "able to fly" and "able to fly as before" becomes a non-zero value.
NB: The last two paragraphs are based on the idea that you will not get all racial BC V's even if you already have the generic BC V skill; it is unlikely to be the case. It seems to not be the plan CCP is likely to go with, nor do they have any concrete plans at all. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 00:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pvc Pipe wrote:Meh
I am not a purist and I planned to train those skills anyway, but damned if I am not annoyed that I have to get them all trained right away or face loosing potential sp. Pretty much eats up the next month of my skill training time where I would be otherwise training immediately useful things.
I can see what CCP are trying to do here making BC less of a giant training target while balancing other ship classes, but I don't agree with them using skillpoint inflation to help accomplish that goal. It is a direct harm to incoming players and the only way to make it not so is to screw over older players who would no longer be able to fly their command ships, interdictors, etc.
i have the same issue but i dont mind it that much (tho a bit as i realy need some other **** but well that is all delayed for 30 days but the gain is worth it. i hope they will give us the SPs for all destroyer and BCs so we can spend them diffrently to compensate. then i will be uber happy |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 00:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote:[quote=Maximillian Dragonard] very long story and making decent points
tho you are not completly wrong and about the command ships you are right funny as i never checked that . i just checked preq and then you need BC 5
tho he will miss out on ships he could fly ofc if they dont reimburse as he cant fly all races BCs and destroyers. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
558
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:So you think it is right for players to LOSE the ability to fly ships they could already be sitting in? wtf?
I can understand why you dont want SP awarded, but this is a FAR better option than stripping players of the ability to fly ships they can already fly. Surely you can agree with that. So unless CCP go back on the skill restructuring, this is their only option.
Unless you have a better idea? Well, BC is a rank 6 skill, so how about making the racial BC skills rank 1 and refunding the SP difference.
Destroyers is harder as it is rank 2. No ideas on that one. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 02:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Blatant Forum Alt wrote:So you think it is right for players to LOSE the ability to fly ships they could already be sitting in? wtf?
I can understand why you dont want SP awarded, but this is a FAR better option than stripping players of the ability to fly ships they can already fly. Surely you can agree with that. So unless CCP go back on the skill restructuring, this is their only option.
Unless you have a better idea? Well, BC is a rank 6 skill, so how about making the racial BC skills rank 1 and refunding the SP difference. Destroyers is harder as it is rank 2. No ideas on that one.
that is completly ridiculous! its rank 6 skill for a reason... would not make sense that its easier to learn how to fly a frigite or cruiser then the BC. suck it up there is no other way to do this proper for all persons then to:
1. give the players the SPs to train all the racial BCs and destroyers for as much as they could before 2. give them the racial skills accordingly what they could fly before the change
tho there are 2 options both gibving the same amount of SPs |
Torak Dakos
The Restless Masquerade Hedonistic Imperative
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 11:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
why complain about giving free SP away, yes the number next to SP will grow but the pilot have exact same ability's as before -.-
i |
Togrockz
Mythos Corp HELL4S
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 13:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote:Maximillian Dragonard wrote:I fly all 4 races command ships... without BC V in each race, I would immediately loose access to 3/4 of that ship class. That violates CCP's stated position that "if you fly it now, you'll be able to fly it later". I don't see your idea happening for this very reason. (thankfully!) Really? Who do people keep repeating this thing about not being able to fly all their command ships if they suddenly lost [racial] BC V? It's not even correct. This isn't how ships and skills work in EVE. Take a look at prereqs for, say, Sleipniers: Minmatar Cruiser V Command Ships I Heavy Assault Ships IV This is what you need to sit in a Sleip. Now, you need other skills to be able to inject the required skills, but this is not at all the same thing as actually requiring BC V (that is, having it listed as the root the tree for either a primary, secondary or tertiary skill required). If you lost BC 5 right now, you'd still be able to fly it because you would still have Minmatar Cruiser V, Command Ships I and Heavy Assault Ships IV. Obviously in order to gain the ability to inject Command Ships you needed BC V. There's a big difference between "The ship's Primary Skill required is Battlecruisers V" and "To inject the skill Command Ships I need Battlecruisers V". Remember, there was no mention of the idea that losing BC V "untrains" the skills that depend on it. In fact, CCP even said that "because of how nested skills work", people would still be able to fly their all their CSs and whatnot even if they were to lose the BC V skill for some races. It should be clear by now why that is so. HOWEVER, if the change were implemented in some way that doesn't give [racial] BC V to all the people who currently have the generic BC V skill trained, suddenly one of the ship skill bonuses for command ships becomes more interesting. For example, Sleip: "Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire and 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness per level" So, people would still be able to fly all 4 races' command ships because see above, but the command ships in the race for which they don't have BC V suddenly become worse than they were. Currently these T1 ship skill bonuses for T2 ships are kind of odd because you already have them at V due to needing V to inject the T2 skillbook (might be better with wording like "ship type bonus" or something and have a flat value), and suddenly they do make a difference for some people (because you're in a ship for which you shouldn't have been able to inject one of the required skills given your current skill set). The difference between "able to fly" and "able to fly as before" becomes a non-zero value. NB: The last two paragraphs are based on the idea that you will not get all racial BC V's even if you already have the generic BC V skill; it is unlikely to be the case. It seems to not be the plan CCP is likely to go with, nor do they have any concrete plans at all.
u kinda got this wrong in your sleipnir example.With the new ship progression ccp considers, sleipnir will require bc 5 and It wont require any cruiser skill or any heavy assault ship skill.So this is kinda of a mess here.They say you wont "loose the ability" to fly the ships u already fly.What does this exactly means thoug Here are a few questions i would really like to see some answers o
1) Suppose i have min cruisers 3, caldari cruisers 5(which i only trained for lets say tengu) and bc a)Now with that setup i could fly a nighthawk (with some extra skills as well), but lets say the real reason i trained bc 5 was -lest say- to fly a perfect hurricane and a perfect drak So after patch i still get min bc 5 and caldari bc5? If so i get for free another ship i previously couldnt fly and thats sleipnir(which i dont care about).They also let me fly nighthawk based on my previous skills which i also dont care abou They give me caldari bc 5 which i do care about since it concerns the drake.How about min bc though?What are they going to give me? If they give me min bc 5 ill be happy.They can however give me min bc 2, which will still "give me the ability" to fly the hurricane(but not the sleipnir, which i couldnt fly before) but thats not the reason why i did train bc to lvl 5...
b)Also after the change you will need bc to 4 to train for bs.In my previous example i cannot fly min bs because i have min cruiser 3.So what happens now? i stay with min cruiser 3 and battlecruiser 5? Isnt this kinda hard since bc will require cruiser 4?And even so, i will still be able to inject the bs skill because ill have the bc skill at the correct re
c)lets say i trained amar bs 5 a few months ago, and i still have a lot to go for carrier.What will happen now? do i get the skill reimbersed? Surely you can say that the toon can still use it but thats obviously not the reason why someone would spend 30days training it.After all eve is all about specialization right?So if i had trained some navigation skills first, i get to win those 30days, if not, i get ccp and my friends to laugh down on me? Same goes for the command ships and dictors.If i trained for a sleipnir or a sabre do i get the cruiser and frigate skills reimbursed after the patc
|
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 13:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
On c., you'll almost definately will NOT get the skill reimbursed. Amarr BS5 still has it uses, same as before. |
Kyr Evotorin
Psycho Tech Industries Interstellar Hobos
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.24 14:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
It's like reading the same three different views on the subject a hundred times over in three hundred different formats. Thanks.
In any case... One thing I would like to announce: If you don't already have Battlecruisers V, you're doing it wrong. amiright? |
Recknin
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 04:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
So once this change is implemented, will the Command Ships skill itself remain generic? Or will it also be split into 4? Just noticing that although the command ships themselves don't require BC5, learning the skill does. How will that play out? |
|
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 15:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Recknin wrote:So once this change is implemented, will the Command Ships skill itself remain generic? Or will it also be split into 4? Just noticing that although the command ships themselves don't require BC5, learning the skill does. How will that play out?
I'm assuming they'll remain the same as all the t2 skills, such as Assault Ships and Heavy Assault ships as a 1 covers all 4 races. For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
|
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 16:53:00 -
[42] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:Recknin wrote:So once this change is implemented, will the Command Ships skill itself remain generic? Or will it also be split into 4? Just noticing that although the command ships themselves don't require BC5, learning the skill does. How will that play out? I'm assuming they'll remain the same as all the t2 skills, such as Assault Ships and Heavy Assault ships as a 1 covers all 4 races.
yep i think so too... |
Recknin
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 21:52:00 -
[43] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote: I'm assuming they'll remain the same as all the t2 skills, such as Assault Ships and Heavy Assault ships as a 1 covers all 4 races.
Ah, I knew I was forgetting something. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 23:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
i am also curious if there are new ships planned? the whole racial BC/destroyer ship class can also be to make some pirate/faction destroyers and BCs any news on that? |
Savage Creampuff
Ion Corp. Citex Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 13:14:00 -
[45] - Quote
i have been told from unreliable sources that you will need the racial frig and cruiser skills, in addition to the battlecruiser skill, to have the new skills assigned. ie: if you can fly it, you will still be able to fly it.
since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? |
OfBalance
Caldari State
242
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 17:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs?
You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills.
HTH |
Kush Monster
Big Tobacco
29
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 21:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:Firstly I know everything is subject to change. I just wanted to see what other people thought about this specific piece of the change. CCP Ytterbium wrote: Q: can we opt out for skills we don't want during the reimbursement process? A: well, again, it depends on how it is done. We may just bluntly give all four variants at V if you had battlecruiser V for example, or maybe require that you also add the relevant Cruiser skill trained at level 3 to be eligible. On the latter case, just don't train the cruiser 3 skill, and you should not receive the new racial battlecruiser at 5. Not sure why one would do that however, it's like skipping free candy or cake while visiting your grandma.
Example: If we go for option 1: you will get Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar Battlecruiser skills at 5 if you previously had the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5. If we go for option 2: you will get Amarr Battlecruiser skill at 5 only if you previously fulfilled all conditions to fly Amarr Battlecruisers, which means having the generic Battlecruiser skill at 5, PLUS the Amarr Cruiser at 3. To remind it again, there are other options to consider, but no matter which one which choose, you won't lose anything out of the skill reimbursement plan.
I know a lot of people (myself included) are purists or are pretty darn proud of their skill sheets. One might say a tad OCD. So if CCP did go with option 1 instead of option 2, Would it be a deal breaker? Personally I made this character for (lol)RP reasons to suddenly have Amarr BC4 Minmatar BC4 floating there with absolutely no support skills and no intention of every being trained would absolutely crush me, given how much time I've put into the character, not just playing but backstory and all that stuff. So thoughts ladies and gentlemen.
a tad OCD you say?
I can think of 3 reasons why this is going to be good: 1. you wont get the skill unless you train for it. 3. free sp!
How to make mining enjoyable: An Autocannon, Faction Ammo, Your Mouth
|
Savage Creampuff
Ion Corp. Citex Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 10:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
OfBalance wrote:Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills. HTH so your saying the sp would just be reimbursed since there wouldn't be a generic bc skill anymore? |
Ahaz Darkfall
Division One Trade and Aquisition
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 16:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
Savage Creampuff wrote:OfBalance wrote:Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills. HTH so your saying the sp would just be reimbursed since there wouldn't be a generic bc skill anymore?
from what I have read there is no reimbursement planed.
Why would anyone one train BC to 5 with no racial cruiser skills?
The racial skills are required to fly the BC's of each race, just not prerequisite of the BC skill.
If you have BC trained to 5 but only have the racial skills trained to fly one race's BC then you will get that racial BC skill at 5. You will still be able to fly that one BC. If you want any other racial BC skill you will need to train frigate 4 plus cruiser 3 for that race. Then you would also get that race's BC skill at 5.
As far as I am concerned the time it takes to train racial frigate 4 and cruiser 5 (less than a week per race) to get the racial BC skill for free to what ever level you now have BC trained to is a significant amount of free SP for very little effort. If you do not want all the races BC skills than do not train the prerequisites. For anyone even remotely interested in cross training this is a great deal. for those who do not want the skills you still lose nothing, but they are not going to just credit everyone with the skill points needed to train all 4 races to BC 5 and let you decide where to spend the points.
I am working on the prerequisites for all races on all my characters even the non combat characters and will ensure all my combat characters have BC to 5 to maximize the benefit I will get from the change. Anyone who chooses not to will be choosing to not receive those free skill points. Your loss for your choice. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
59
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 19:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
I have a question.
Command ships currently requires:
1. Racial Cruiser V ... 2. Command ships I 2.1 Battle Cruisers V ... 3. Heavy Assault Ships IV ...
With BC becomming a racial skill something must change. It seems likely that: a. the requirement of BC V for the Command ships skill will be dropped b. Racial BC V will be a new requirement
Now the question is whether they will simply add the racial BC V as a 4th requirement or let racial BC V replace racial Cr V as a requirement, which would mean that in the future you will only need racial Cruiser IV (the prerequisite for racial BC) rather than V to train for a specific command ship. Any opinions on this? |
|
Lost Greybeard
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 20:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
Savage Creampuff wrote:OfBalance wrote:Savage Creampuff wrote:since you don't actually need the frig or cruiser skill to train battlecruiser, what would happen if you have battlecruiser 5 but no racial frig/crusier pre-reqs? You wouldn't be able to "fly it before," so you wouldn't get the racial bc skills. HTH so your saying the sp would just be reimbursed since there wouldn't be a generic bc skill anymore?
I believe you literally cannot inject the BC skill without a cruiser skill at 3 or 4, though it's been a while since I actually injected it. So by definition you can't possibly not have at least one BC racial prerequisite if you have the BC skill. |
Togrockz
Mythos Corp HELL4S
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.31 14:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
any idea when this patch is gonna take place? |
Clementina
The Scope
61
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 05:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
I do not know when the patch will take place, However I'm training Battlecruisers 5 to be able to take as much advantage as my character can. Wondering if I should learn Minmatar Cruisers 3 though.
Also looking at the skill tree, the only thing you need to train Battlecruisers is Spaceship command 4. Granted, people are smart, and so wouldn't train battlecruisers without a racial cruiser skill, but it is possible. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 06:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Clementina wrote:I do not know when the patch will take place, However I'm training Battlecruisers 5 to be able to take as much advantage as my character can. Wondering if I should learn Minmatar Cruisers 3 though.
Also looking at the skill tree, the only thing you need to train Battlecruisers is Spaceship command 4. Granted, people are smart, and so wouldn't train battlecruisers without a racial cruiser skill, but it is possible. CCP scheduled Inferno for May here.
Difficult to predict though, how much of the skill and ship redesign will be implemented in the first patch of the new expansion.
Right after the announcement, I rescheduled skill training for characters crosstraining, so everything will be done before may. |
Eofina
DEATH'S LEGION Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 08:56:00 -
[55] - Quote
Torak Dakos wrote:why complain about giving free SP away, yes the number next to SP will grow but the pilot have exact same ability's as before -.-
i
This, and if anything more SP might mean more ISK for a higher Medical Clone.
Or did I just open another can of worms? |
Justa Altlol
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 14:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
I hope they go with method #2. I'd rather not have skills I never plan to use cluttering up my skill window and making my clones more expensive. |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 21:01:00 -
[57] - Quote
I think a character should only get new Racial Battlecruiser skill to 5 if they already have Racial Cruiser skill to 5. Otherwise lots of people will get free access to Command Ships they cannot currently fly. |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
24
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 21:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:i am also curious if there are new ships planned? the whole racial BC/destroyer ship class can also be to make some pirate/faction destroyers and BCs any news on that?
You wouldn't catch me flying a Drake Navy Issue. |
Xlera
Universal Fleet Operations
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 22:13:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:i am also curious if there are new ships planned? the whole racial BC/destroyer ship class can also be to make some pirate/faction destroyers and BCs any news on that?
they said they want to add more destroyers if they can find a role for them as having a skill which only enables 1 ship is going to be silly. |
Mohamad Transporte
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 13:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
I think the whole revamp thing is really a good idea overall, especially with the idea , however, i wish that:
1. Like mentioned before: Factional BC would be nice (however, not overpower the tank of BS, or dps of a sleipner)
2. Give more tank and drone capacity for marauders & stealth warping ability to black ops .. (aka make it worth to train for) |
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RaVeN Revenge
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 01:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
1 problem I can see coming. Sort of reverse engineering the situation...
If you have all frigs at V, and destroyers at IV, then you are currently 8 days away from flying all Interdicters.
If you get re-skilled with 4 racial destroyer skills, you will be 32 days away from all interdicters.
BC skill could in theory add 60 days to a similar scenario. Nerfing your character effectivly by 2 months or more.
Total adverse effect is 3 months, give or take. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5923
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 10:01:00 -
[62] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:I have a question.
Command ships currently requires:
1. Racial Cruiser V ... 2. Command ships I 2.1 Battle Cruisers V ... 3. Heavy Assault Ships IV ...
With BC becomming a racial skill something must change. It seems likely that: a. the requirement of BC V for the Command ships skill will be dropped b. Racial BC V will be a new requirement
Now the question is whether they will simply add the racial BC V as a 4th requirement or let racial BC V replace racial Cr V as a requirement, which would mean that in the future you will only need racial Cruiser IV (the prerequisite for racial BC) rather than V to train for a specific command ship. Any opinions on this? It'll be like this (if we combine both fleet and field command ships and remove all redundant prereqs):
The current combined prereq for both shipsGǪ
[racial] Cruiser V -á-á-á-á-á[racial] Frigate IV Command Ships I -á-á-á-á-áBattlecruisers V -á-á-á-á-áWarfare Link Specialist IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áLeadership V -á-á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V Heavy Assault Ships IV -á-á-á-á-áAssault Ships IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áEngineering V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áMechanic V -á-á-á-á-áWeapon Upgrades V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áGunnery II Logistics IV -á-á-á-á-áSignature Analysis V -á-á-á-á-áLong Range Targeting V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áElectronics II
GǪwill becomeGǪ
[racial] Battlecruiser V -á-á-á-á-á[racial] Cruiser IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á[racial] Destroyer IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á[racial] Frigate IV Command Ships I -á-á-á-á-áWarfare Link Specialist IV -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áLeadership V -á-á-á-á-áSpaceship Command V
You will no longer need the cruiser skill to fly BCs (beyond training it high enough to train the BC skill itself, but once that's done, you can lose ever last cruiser SP), nor will you need any of the T2 cruiser role skills (HAC, Logi). All in all, getting all eight command ships will require several millions fewer SP under the new system than under the old one, even though you now have 4+ù racial BC skills to train to V. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
MushroomMushroom
Consolidated Sprocket
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 03:43:00 -
[63] - Quote
Sunviking wrote:I think a character should only get new Racial Battlecruiser skill to 5 if they already have Racial Cruiser skill to 5. Otherwise lots of people will get free access to Command Ships they cannot currently fly.
Uhm NO... I'm training BC 5 so that my oracle and nado get maxed, why should I need crusiers 5 to get the benefit of BC 5 for my tier 3 BC? What if someone had trained BC5 and never trained any racial cruiser to 5, they just loose the SP? |
Aranakas
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
267
|
Posted - 2012.04.06 21:23:00 -
[64] - Quote
Seriously, they should have it so you only get the skill if you can already fly the ship, otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the skill rehash.
I'm cross training my skills right now in case they announce that's how it will be. It'll take me some 3 days, but I'll still have plenty of time left to train BC V up as well before the expansion. It's almost 2 full months away... |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.07 03:00:00 -
[65] - Quote
when will the change be exactly? somewhere in may?
and is it known what will happen? will we loose the destroyer and BC skill and gain points freely to redistribute or do we get the racial skills that we could fly at the lvl we could fly it? |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
108
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 14:43:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:when will the change be exactly? somewhere in may?
and is it known what will happen? will we loose the destroyer and BC skill and gain points freely to redistribute or do we get the racial skills that we could fly at the lvl we could fly it?
From another thread currently on GD:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:There are two conditions needed before we split the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill in four:
- We need to overhaul destroyer and battlecruiser ships themselves. Cutting your ability to fly those ships by four without taking care of the underpowered hulls is a no go, because that would mean new players going for one racial line would have a hard time having valid options in these two classes.
- We need to have a very solid skill reimbursement plan set in stone. Most likely, we would take care of the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skill refund in one move to be done with it and avoid the same inconvenience twice for our playerbase.
So no, to my knowledge skill changes are not coming in April; what we are most likely going to start with is to have a look at the tech 1 frigates and cruisers, then move up as time passes, but nothing is fixed yet. We will do our best to let you know in advance if the skill changes are due for a specific release. (Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1001495#post1001495)
We have a fair while to wait and get training to Destroyer 5 and BC5. If you want to. For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
|
Orlacc
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
101
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 20:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
By "purist" you mean "OCD" or "Anal Retentive?" |
Boomhaur
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.10 22:52:00 -
[68] - Quote
I hope they just keep the skills as is, I am spec mainly for sub BS ships so if they redistribute points the way it currently mentioned all it will do is give me a more expensive clone not a big deal. But it would annoy a lot of pilots who don't know or took a break from eve, and than give a lot of pilots who wouldn't train BC V and Destroyer V more SP and more access to ships they otherwise wouldn't fly if they knew in advance to train for it. Especially since they plan on making T2 ships easier to get into. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2012.04.11 20:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:By "purist" you mean "OCD" or "Anal Retentive?"
I thought that was a given For every player ship that blows up, the wheels of the economy turn slightly faster. -áDo your bit today. -áGo out and PEW.
|
Korah Arnelle
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 02:51:00 -
[70] - Quote
Torak Dakos wrote:why complain about giving free SP away, yes the number next to SP will grow but the pilot have exact same ability's as before -.-
i Agreed. I'm more worried on how they're going to handle destroyers since in the same post, the dev stated they intend to integrate them as a ship of the line now. Does this mean the slot and bonuses will be reworked? Or will they remain largely as they are now? It seems like this is going to be a complicated process imo. |
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Mr Ranger
Nullsec Pimps Associated Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 22:41:00 -
[71] - Quote
Has anyone thought about other ways of possibly getting the racial BC skills up?
If they are going to add the BC skill to the ship line between cruiser and BS then isn't it most likely going to take racial BC IV to train the racial BS skill? If that is the case then people who don't even have the BC skill now could fly any BC's that they have the racial BS skill for. Granted that most people who have the BS skill will probably have BC, but i'm sure there are some who do not have it. And likewise anyone with the cruiser skill would be able to use the destroyers.
This seems like a fairly complicated change for them to implement.
Quote:"If and when such changes occur, we would remove the generic Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills, reimburse the skill points (and possibly the cost) not to penalize players. Due to the way nested requirements work, it would also mean pilots would not need to re-train anything to fly Battleships or Cruisers. All of this is work in progress of course and subject to change, especially since we are still discussing skill reimbursement options."
Sounds like they have alot to consider at the moment and alot of other problems to iron out before we see any of this implemented so i honestly dont expect to see it too soon. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Chained Reactions
19
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Posted - 2012.04.13 18:11:00 -
[72] - Quote
I am completely happy with this proposed idea. Simply because, as CCP pointed out, in the long run it cleans up ship progression. Giving new players an easier way of getting into ships they want. The downside is us old players.
For example: Heavy Assault Ships still require Assault Ship skills. But under the new variation it will not be needed. So would we get reimbursed for them? I literally used assault frigates for roughly 1 complete day at most. I tried them and realized how absolutely useless they were for my intentions and purposes. But they are still a necessity for the Heavy Assault Ships I prefer and use.
So when the restructuring comes along, would we get some 'clean up SP' for skills we obviously don't need any more? |
James Amril-Kesh
JAK Corporation
172
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Posted - 2012.04.13 20:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
FireT wrote:I am completely happy with this proposed idea. Simply because, as CCP pointed out, in the long run it cleans up ship progression. Giving new players an easier way of getting into ships they want. The downside is us old players.
For example: Heavy Assault Ships still require Assault Ship skills. But under the new variation it will not be needed. So would we get reimbursed for them? I literally used assault frigates for roughly 1 complete day at most. I tried them and realized how absolutely useless they were for my intentions and purposes. But they are still a necessity for the Heavy Assault Ships I prefer and use.
So when the restructuring comes along, would we get some 'clean up SP' for skills we obviously don't need any more? Of course not, because you can still fly assault frigates. Its your choice not to. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Chained Reactions
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.13 20:38:00 -
[74] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:FireT wrote:I am completely happy with this proposed idea. Simply because, as CCP pointed out, in the long run it cleans up ship progression. Giving new players an easier way of getting into ships they want. The downside is us old players.
For example: Heavy Assault Ships still require Assault Ship skills. But under the new variation it will not be needed. So would we get reimbursed for them? I literally used assault frigates for roughly 1 complete day at most. I tried them and realized how absolutely useless they were for my intentions and purposes. But they are still a necessity for the Heavy Assault Ships I prefer and use.
So when the restructuring comes along, would we get some 'clean up SP' for skills we obviously don't need any more? Of course not, because you can still fly assault frigates. Its your choice not to.
Let me clarify, I was more about being the devil's advocate here, since some people will complain about this. So I figured lets per-empt it: If the restructuring goes as planned suddenly frigate prerequisites are not needed any more. Suddenly those skills that had been mandatory to fly Recon Cruisers and Heavy Assault ships are useless but are still stuck with your invested SP.
Personally, unless you had trained them just prior to the planned skill tree changes, you should not really have them reimbursed.
I was just curious since I know this will inevitably come up, and I was wondering how giant the can of worms is for CCP. So far it looks more like Shai-Hulud sized. (Kudos who gets that reference) |
James Amril-Kesh
JAK Corporation
172
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Posted - 2012.04.13 22:54:00 -
[75] - Quote
FireT wrote:Let me clarify, I was more about being the devil's advocate here, since some people will complain about this. So I figured lets per-empt it: If the restructuring goes as planned suddenly frigate prerequisites are not needed any more. Suddenly those skills that had been mandatory to fly Recon Cruisers and Heavy Assault ships are useless but are still stuck with your invested SP. No they aren't, because even if the skills are no longer important to fly recon and heavy assault ships, they still allow you to do something you couldn't previously. You have options that you wouldn't have if you had started training for HACs after this change. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Chained Reactions
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.15 01:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: No they aren't, because even if the skills are no longer important to fly recon and heavy assault ships, they still allow you to do something you couldn't previously. You have options that you wouldn't have if you had started training for HACs after this change.
But that was my exact question: those ships are not options but mandatory ship paths now. When they change it they become optional ship paths. So why would I need to be punished using skills I never found any utility for? That was why I asked. I am curious how CCP will handle it because of it. Assault and covert ops frigates become options in the future while now being mandatory. Yes I repeat myself, but it seems to be that people ignore that aspect.
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
1257
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Posted - 2012.04.15 12:06:00 -
[77] - Quote
Whilst I think that the changes are generally a good idea, the reimbursement process will need some tinkering.
1. Players who started a character after [implementation of changes] - [time it takes to train destroyers V and BC V and all racial cruisers to III] are at a severe disadvantage compared to people who managed to do so before (if those people would want to fly all destroyers and BCs).
2. Players who just coincidentally have the ability to fly a ship will receive unwanted SP, bloating their SP and clone costs.*
Therefore, I think the skills ranks should be halved, the SP currently in the skills should be reimbursed to reach middle ground. Yes - the skills ranks would be out of line, but then who cares? Eve is an old game and making catching up some basic grunt ships faster for newbs wouldn't hurt. Older players can chose to redistribute the SP to immediately to fly two of the current races perfectly or get 1 to V and the others to 4 and will have a little training to do to fly all of them (so what?).
*Considering that some mentally challenged people who seem to think "moar free SP = good" have trouble getting that one, here's an example: both of my combat characters are near perfect Ferox/Drake pilots (only lacking missile/hybrid specs to V), however I've never flown any of these ships and don't intend to. The reason I can fly them almost perfectly are because I trained all the necessary skills to V for all kinds of other ships. As it stands now I'll get Caldari Destroyer & BC V, unnecessarily bloating my SP by two million per unwanted race. Personally, I don't like Destroyers and BCs in general and if I fly one, it's either a Thrasher or Cane, so I'd probably only get Minmatar Dest/BC to V - maybe Amarr for my CS V pilot if CS will ever be useful again. That leaves me with 6 million unwanted SP.
However my characters are set out to stop training below 120 mill SP to keep 'travel' costs down (I often find myself sefdestructing my pod rather than trying to make it back through some bubble infested backwater). One character will break that barrier thanks to the additional SP and the others skilplan wont fit.
Sure - it's the same for everyone and the additional clone costs wont bring me to the poor-house, but I'll pay 15 mill additional isk each time I get podded for absolutely no benefit. Considering the ships I often fly just the increase is multiple times the ship price. You know... morons. |
Joran Dravius
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2012.04.15 12:39:00 -
[78] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:By "purist" you mean "OCD" or "Anal Retentive?" Both in my case. |
Ellendras Silver
Jovian Legacy Jovian Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.04.17 11:54:00 -
[79] - Quote
Drew Solaert wrote:We have a fair while to wait and get training to Destroyer 5 and BC5. If you want to. great i finnished training all frigites to 4 cruisers to 3 and i have destroyers and BCs at 5 now and then i read this **** this sucks ass |
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