Originally by: Julius Scipio

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I like the idea behind this nerf. Trying to get gangs with multiple ship types instead of the usual 10 nano HACs. The changes to roles within the gang will be interesting, the FC and gang members will have to think a bit more. Perhaps being forced to use interceptor squads, multiple webs in their tacklers, greater use of covops warp ins etc.. It will freshen up the stale tactics of 0.0

Also it can't be right that snaked, boosted, faction BS could go as fast as an Interceptor.

Generally these changes are long overdue, will mean a lot of players will have to think a bit more for a while and hopefully see the end of all those endless nano-*** gangs.

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Originally by: Jackaryas

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I think this nerf is the most sensible nerf i have seen for a long while, because ive fought gangs who use nano sure, but there impossible to kill because they nano around just out of point range, missiles cant hit them turrets cant track them, so by reducing the speed means they can still be used but it means you can actually kill them and their not invulnrable

great job CCP

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Originally by: Captator

3) missile boats: they will be the best anti everything ship, regardless of their own class, as they work without webs now, and with the speed changes, they will shred all cruiser sized ships and below with ease, at speed or not.

[/quote

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Haven't been on SISI yet but an easy way to nerf down missiles and yet have them as usefull weapons would be to have one "speed missile" with a rather large sig radius and a "precision missile" with really low explosive velocity so that it won't shred smaller ship classes equipped with AB's.

The Speed missile will give the option for the target to turn off the MWD for severly reduced damage and continue the fight or it will have to flee.

The precision one will force AB fitted ships to tank more damage or disengage.

The system can either be spread over the 4 different damagage types in various forms like drones or confined to T2 ammo. Doesn't really matter.

Originally by: stagz

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Originally by: Jackaryas

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I think this nerf is the most sensible nerf i have seen for a long while, because ive fought gangs who use nano sure, but there impossible to kill because they nano around just out of point range, missiles cant hit them turrets cant track them, so by reducing the speed means they can still be used but it means you can actually kill them and their not invulnrable

great job CCP

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did you seriously just say that?
if they are outside of point range you can warp off...

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Originally by: CCP Atropos

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Hehe. Fortunately for the EVE player base I have zero input on the ship and module balancing side of things, so quoting my comments from Sisi local is a little silly in all honesty.

I've always been quite outspoken and a little oddball with my setups so using me as a baseline for ship designs is more than likely to get you killed

With regards to the speed issue, we're aware that these are broad and wide ranging changes, but as we've already said, we are more than willing to listen to the feedback you're all bringing. I said the same thing in Sisi local last night, but you don't see that getting quoted

All I ask is that you keep the signal to noise ratio down, please. This is a controversial issue for many, but constructive feedback is always welcome, from any player. Some of the posts here have already identified several key issues that we're looking into, and we will continue to do so.

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Originally by: CCP Atropos

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Hehe. Fortunately for the EVE player base I have zero input on the ship and module balancing side of things, so quoting my comments from Sisi local is a little silly in all honesty.

I've always been quite outspoken and a little oddball with my setups so using me as a baseline for ship designs is more than likely to get you killed

With regards to the speed issue, we're aware that these are broad and wide ranging changes, but as we've already said, we are more than willing to listen to the feedback you're all bringing. I said the same thing in Sisi local last night, but you don't see that getting quoted

All I ask is that you keep the signal to noise ratio down, please. This is a controversial issue for many, but constructive feedback is always welcome, from any player. Some of the posts here have already identified several key issues that we're looking into, and we will continue to do so.

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Originally by: Natalia Kovac

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Current ways to counter nano-boats:

Rapier
Huginn
Hyena
Curse
Pilgrim
Falcon
Rook
Scorpion
One or two Large Energy Neutralisers on a Battleship
Remote-repping Battleships
Overloading web/mwd to catch them
ECM
Other Nano-boats

They are not overpowered. The only people who think they are, is noobs/forum whiners who don't have a clue, and apparently now CCP.

I will probably unsub permanently if these changes go live. Way to ruin a game, CCP.

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Originally by: Natalia Kovac

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Imo the ONLY thing that needs to be nerfed wrt speed is polycarbon rigs, to bring them in line with the other rigs/module equivalents. Faction mods, T2 rigs and pirate implants are not a problem because they are horrendously expensive and thus only a TINY minority of pilots use them.

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Originally by: Natalia Kovac

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The idea that a Vaga moves as fast as an interceptor is a fallacy. A triple OD/2x poly/T2 mwd Vaga hits about 6k. A triple OD/double poly/T2 Stiletto will be going at least 8k. Of course whether you want to rig a fragile inty is a different matter. I just leave my inties T2 mods and no rigs, they are fast enough like that.

So a couple points about the 6km/s Vaga. At the current time it costs about 190-200mil fully fitted. That is 80 for the hull, 80 for two T1 polycarbons, and say 30-40 for a T2 mod loadout and some Barrage, maybe a bit of nanite repair paste. Expensive I think you'll agree.

Caps out between 1:30 and two minutes running the mwd. Of course you only usually burst it to get in range or gtfo. It can't apply any significant dps while mwding. It has to run on normal drive at around 600m/s to do damage. At it's preferred range of about 15km (T2 webs overload to 13km now) it does reasonable dps. As you move towards the falloff range of about 20km it does less and less. After 20km the dps is negligable to anything other than say a T1 frig.

A T2 Large Neut zaps 600 cap inside it's 25km range every 24 seconds (base skills). So if a BS has a neut, you can't kill it safely, seeing as a Vaga's cap is about 1000 with a mwd on.

If they have Rapiers or Huginns in gang it's very, very risky to engage. They can web out to like 40km at a strength of 2x 90%. Hyenas are less dangerous, only webbing out to 18-20km where you can kill them, but an MSE Hyena could slow you down for long enough for something else to grab you. The double LSE tank is a decent buffer, but won't survive sustained fire. A fully webbed Vaga is a dead Vaga.

Curses or Pilgrims can cap you out very easily, leaving you pretty vunerable. Also even one or two TDs will screw over you DPS.

And of course Falcons will jam you, leaving you unable to lock anything. You could most likely hang around and wait for a failed jam cycle, or bug out if it turns bad, but you won't be able to kill anything.

Phew!! So I hope you guys realise they ain't the be and end all of combat. Cheers.

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Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

After quite a few hours testing on SISI, there are a few obvious problems with some quite possibly overlooked factors in the patch.

Caldari missile ships are vastly overpowered, able to hit pretty much anything at close to full damage due to explosion velocity and generally low speed. As a result of this, fewer players will be able to find smaller ships viable, furthering the shift upward in ship classes. It's looking like BC/BS sized ships will become the norm, especially against anything with missiles, as those are currently the only ships with a decent chance of tanking multiple hostiles.

Amarr is looking great too, due to their amazing tracking an apoc, correctly fit, is able to hit most ships at great range. Tracking becomes a bit of an issue with inties and dictors, but being able to hit anything larger with battleship sized weapons causes a bit of an imbalance, not to mention the fact that missile boats can clean up whatever they miss, currently.

Gallente is looking stronger overall, which is good considering how badly they've been hit in the last couple years. Arazu is looking like one of the strongest ships in the game atm, mostly because it can shut MWDs down at 37.5k with the proper gang/fitting, which is a bit ludicrous.

Minmatar have been completely shafted to be honest. The Tempest and Typhoon have both been hit with mass additions, which, considering how bad these ships already are is quite insane. I currently see no reason to train Matari over any other race. The vagabond is unable to tank properly, and the speed has been reduced by such a factor that it's impossible to avoid damage while surviving long enough to do anything effective. Minmatar ships have effectively been reduced to fodder that can be thrown on the front lines of fights to stop hostiles from shooting ships actually worth caring about.

Overall, nanoships needed to be nerfed a bit, but this is overdoing it quite majorly. Moving polycarbs to be in line with other rigs, perhaps nerfing snakes and lowering the effectiveness of Skirmish modules are all fine changes, and would bring nanoships in line with other forms of tanking quite well, generally lowering LUDICROUS SPEEDS to something more manageable.

The 2pt scram change, while interesting and generally well accepted by the community has inherent flaws, mostly the fact that with current game mechanics it's stupidly overpowered, being able to stop a ship from warping and practically stop it from moving at the same time, you're combining webs and disruptors into a single module that is amazingly more effective then either of them alone.

In conclusion, as it's 05:00 and I'd actually like to get some sleep tonight, the changes that are currently on SISI are excessive, there's no need to kill a type of gameplay because it's somehow thought of as status quo. A small nerf to generate diversity is a great idea, and one I'm sure most of the EVE community would be fully behind, but killing an entire area of gameplay for whatever reason is something that I'd have thought CCP would never have thought of, especially if EVE is to be a true "sandbox".

You gave us the toys we've used, you've provided the sandbox, you've allowed the mold to set. Don't stomp on our castle because it's the easy way out.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

After quite a few hours testing on SISI, there are a few obvious problems with some quite possibly overlooked factors in the patch.

Caldari missile ships are vastly overpowered, able to hit pretty much anything at close to full damage due to explosion velocity and generally low speed. As a result of this, fewer players will be able to find smaller ships viable, furthering the shift upward in ship classes. It's looking like BC/BS sized ships will become the norm, especially against anything with missiles, as those are currently the only ships with a decent chance of tanking multiple hostiles.

Amarr is looking great too, due to their amazing tracking an apoc, correctly fit, is able to hit most ships at great range. Tracking becomes a bit of an issue with inties and dictors, but being able to hit anything larger with battleship sized weapons causes a bit of an imbalance, not to mention the fact that missile boats can clean up whatever they miss, currently.

Gallente is looking stronger overall, which is good considering how badly they've been hit in the last couple years. Arazu is looking like one of the strongest ships in the game atm, mostly because it can shut MWDs down at 37.5k with the proper gang/fitting, which is a bit ludicrous.

Minmatar have been completely shafted to be honest. The Tempest and Typhoon have both been hit with mass additions, which, considering how bad these ships already are is quite insane. I currently see no reason to train Matari over any other race. The vagabond is unable to tank properly, and the speed has been reduced by such a factor that it's impossible to avoid damage while surviving long enough to do anything effective. Minmatar ships have effectively been reduced to fodder that can be thrown on the front lines of fights to stop hostiles from shooting ships actually worth caring about.

Overall, nanoships needed to be nerfed a bit, but this is overdoing it quite majorly. Moving polycarbs to be in line with other rigs, perhaps nerfing snakes and lowering the effectiveness of Skirmish modules are all fine changes, and would bring nanoships in line with other forms of tanking quite well, generally lowering LUDICROUS SPEEDS to something more manageable.

The 2pt scram change, while interesting and generally well accepted by the community has inherent flaws, mostly the fact that with current game mechanics it's stupidly overpowered, being able to stop a ship from warping and practically stop it from moving at the same time, you're combining webs and disruptors into a single module that is amazingly more effective then either of them alone.

In conclusion, as it's 05:00 and I'd actually like to get some sleep tonight, the changes that are currently on SISI are excessive, there's no need to kill a type of gameplay because it's somehow thought of as status quo. A small nerf to generate diversity is a great idea, and one I'm sure most of the EVE community would be fully behind, but killing an entire area of gameplay for whatever reason is something that I'd have thought CCP would never have thought of, especially if EVE is to be a true "sandbox".

You gave us the toys we've used, you've provided the sandbox, you've allowed the mold to set. Don't stomp on our castle because it's the easy way out.

---

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

After quite a few hours testing on SISI, there are a few obvious problems with some quite possibly overlooked factors in the patch.

Caldari missile ships are vastly overpowered, able to hit pretty much anything at close to full damage due to explosion velocity and generally low speed. As a result of this, fewer players will be able to find smaller ships viable, furthering the shift upward in ship classes. It's looking like BC/BS sized ships will become the norm, especially against anything with missiles, as those are currently the only ships with a decent chance of tanking multiple hostiles.

Amarr is looking great too, due to their amazing tracking an apoc, correctly fit, is able to hit most ships at great range. Tracking becomes a bit of an issue with inties and dictors, but being able to hit anything larger with battleship sized weapons causes a bit of an imbalance, not to mention the fact that missile boats can clean up whatever they miss, currently.

Gallente is looking stronger overall, which is good considering how badly they've been hit in the last couple years. Arazu is looking like one of the strongest ships in the game atm, mostly because it can shut MWDs down at 37.5k with the proper gang/fitting, which is a bit ludicrous.

Minmatar have been completely shafted to be honest. The Tempest and Typhoon have both been hit with mass additions, which, considering how bad these ships already are is quite insane. I currently see no reason to train Matari over any other race. The vagabond is unable to tank properly, and the speed has been reduced by such a factor that it's impossible to avoid damage while surviving long enough to do anything effective. Minmatar ships have effectively been reduced to fodder that can be thrown on the front lines of fights to stop hostiles from shooting ships actually worth caring about.

Overall, nanoships needed to be nerfed a bit, but this is overdoing it quite majorly. Moving polycarbs to be in line with other rigs, perhaps nerfing snakes and lowering the effectiveness of Skirmish modules are all fine changes, and would bring nanoships in line with other forms of tanking quite well, generally lowering LUDICROUS SPEEDS to something more manageable.

The 2pt scram change, while interesting and generally well accepted by the community has inherent flaws, mostly the fact that with current game mechanics it's stupidly overpowered, being able to stop a ship from warping and practically stop it from moving at the same time, you're combining webs and disruptors into a single module that is amazingly more effective then either of them alone.

In conclusion, as it's 05:00 and I'd actually like to get some sleep tonight, the changes that are currently on SISI are excessive, there's no need to kill a type of gameplay because it's somehow thought of as status quo. A small nerf to generate diversity is a great idea, and one I'm sure most of the EVE community would be fully behind, but killing an entire area of gameplay for whatever reason is something that I'd have thought CCP would never have thought of, especially if EVE is to be a true "sandbox".

You gave us the toys we've used, you've provided the sandbox, you've allowed the mold to set. Don't stomp on our castle because it's the easy way out.

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---------------

The Miyamotos, Chapter #1.5

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

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poast

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Recruiting

Originally by: Seldarine

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thinking back, this so called nano problem only came about when ccp had the FANTASTIC idea of introducing rigs into the game to vary the setups possible on the ships.

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Originally by: Alkie

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Ok let's see if I can chronicle several patches and what they did to the minmatar race.

T2 ammo nerf: Tremor in anything but large is totally useless because the range was nerfed by half but still retained the 75% tracking penalty. Barrage is the only t2 ammo that is worth a damn currently.

Ship 15% HP buff: Completely removed the advantage of Artillery's alpha strike

Scripting: The tempest is the worst fleet Battleship now by far with a combination of the worst optimal, worst DPS, worst tracking, crappy scan res, and lock range. All of that for a big alpha that is woefully inadequate thanks to the ship HP boost. The muninn is by far the worst hac now, thanks to having an already narrow engagement window plus crappy locktime on small targets ( the ones it was designed to kill) because you have to script for range. Did I already mention how worthless tremor M is?

Bye bye damps: You removed the solo ability of the rapier, making it a glorified and VERY expensive tackler.

Amarr Gods: 80-100 KM Pulse Apocs?! Don't even get me started on the Zealot. You have to be shitting me. If you people are going to keep swinging the nerf bat, you god damn well better fix the stacking penalty for locus rigs.

Shield + armor resist nerf: Took a lot of the punch out of the Minmatar T2 shield resists.

Speed nerf + web nerf + proposed warp jammer changes + polycarb nerf: You CONTINUE to beat the vagabond down to total uselessness. Then you want to make the Rapier/Huginn unable to pin down interceptors. On top of all that, you are basically giving the bonuses of a rapier to the Arazu so it can kill your MWD and tackle you at obscene ranges.

The only good ship I have left is the tanked Sleipnir( no more nano fit). Why don't you remove it's falloff bonus, nerf it's resists(more), and remove a turret while you are at it.

Thank you for removing the last remnants of the soloing part of pvp in eve as well as turning the entire game into even more of a blobfest.

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Originally by: Arctur Ceti

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Pardon my silly question, but I specialize in Gallente ships. Is there any agile Gallente ship I could use to kill a nano and not just have it warp away?

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Originally by: Natalia Kovac

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It's a little tricky using only Gallente. Best bet is probably a BS, fit a couple of Large Neuts. Let him get in his comfort zone, start doing some damage to you. Then make sure you are moving in a direction at max speed with mwd on. Hit the Neuts, overload MWD and Web at 13km and you should be able to grab him.

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Originally by: Tomic

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After some careful testing on sisi, and some long consideration I have come to the following conclusions:

1) Most cruiser sized ships are dead, especially t2 ones. No-one is going to pay the premium for t2 when they can fly a bc for 1/4 of the price, get a ship that tanks more, does more damage and will absolutely destroy and hac that comes near it.

2) Almost all frigates are dead, since they are too easily killed by anything due to their slow speed. Interceptors are just about able to survive 2-3 minutes into a fight.

3) Interdictors/Heavy Interdictors are going to be the ultimate in suicide ships now. There is effectively no way to pilot them without being instapopped as soon as you land. Especially the destroyer sized interdictors, their sig radius and extremely slow speeds mean they are pretty much impossible to fly.

4) A gate camp with a large bubble will now prevent any gang jumping in, of any kind (with the exception of cloaking). Effectively shutting down guerrilla warfare, since large bubbles are common place on tq.

5) This is a huge boost to a titan's jump bridge, as that is the only way to get into a system without losing half your gang.

6) This is also a huge boost to cloakers, as the only means of jumping into a bubble camp, since ships are now too slow to decloak people on jump in at a gate with any reasonable reliability.

7) EW (especially ECM, and falcons/rooks) is getting a boost since they are now much harder to kill. They can sit 150km+ from the fight jamming people and it takes 2-3x as long to get to them, giving them ample time to warp out or cloak. I forsee gangs composing of a lot of falcons in the near future...I hope all the carebear whiners like getting jammed.

Since this is a stealth boost for cloaks, everyone and their mother will now fit a cloak. I hate cloaks, and this is far less preferrable than what is currently the case on tq.

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Originally by: Seldarine

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thinking back, this so called nano problem only came about when ccp had the FANTASTIC idea of introducing rigs into the game to vary the setups possible on the ships.

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Originally by: Haakelen

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Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 12:58:10

Originally by: Seldarine

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thinking back, this so called nano problem only came about when ccp had the FANTASTIC idea of introducing rigs into the game to vary the setups possible on the ships.

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I was pondering this yesterday. Rigs broke a lot of things. EHP (with the HP boost), Energy Locus rigs, speed, etc. CCP is trying to smack things down to fit around rigs instead of vice versa. Ain't good.

Here's something to consider, CCP: Viable PvP above a Tech 1 Cruiser means rigs. Did you intend this?

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Recruiting

Originally by: Viper ****zIe

---

After quite a few hours testing on SISI, there are a few obvious problems with some quite possibly overlooked factors in the patch.

Caldari missile ships are vastly overpowered, able to hit pretty much anything at close to full damage due to explosion velocity and generally low speed. As a result of this, fewer players will be able to find smaller ships viable, furthering the shift upward in ship classes. It's looking like BC/BS sized ships will become the norm, especially against anything with missiles, as those are currently the only ships with a decent chance of tanking multiple hostiles.

Amarr is looking great too, due to their amazing tracking an apoc, correctly fit, is able to hit most ships at great range. Tracking becomes a bit of an issue with inties and dictors, but being able to hit anything larger with battleship sized weapons causes a bit of an imbalance, not to mention the fact that missile boats can clean up whatever they miss, currently.

Gallente is looking stronger overall, which is good considering how badly they've been hit in the last couple years. Arazu is looking like one of the strongest ships in the game atm, mostly because it can shut MWDs down at 37.5k with the proper gang/fitting, which is a bit ludicrous.

Minmatar have been completely shafted to be honest. The Tempest and Typhoon have both been hit with mass additions, which, considering how bad these ships already are is quite insane. I currently see no reason to train Matari over any other race. The vagabond is unable to tank properly, and the speed has been reduced by such a factor that it's impossible to avoid damage while surviving long enough to do anything effective. Minmatar ships have effectively been reduced to fodder that can be thrown on the front lines of fights to stop hostiles from shooting ships actually worth caring about.

Overall, nanoships needed to be nerfed a bit, but this is overdoing it quite majorly. Moving polycarbs to be in line with other rigs, perhaps nerfing snakes and lowering the effectiveness of Skirmish modules are all fine changes, and would bring nanoships in line with other forms of tanking quite well, generally lowering LUDICROUS SPEEDS to something more manageable.

The 2pt scram change, while interesting and generally well accepted by the community has inherent flaws, mostly the fact that with current game mechanics it's stupidly overpowered, being able to stop a ship from warping and practically stop it from moving at the same time, you're combining webs and disruptors into a single module that is amazingly more effective then either of them alone.

In conclusion, as it's 05:00 and I'd actually like to get some sleep tonight, the changes that are currently on SISI are excessive, there's no need to kill a type of gameplay because it's somehow thought of as status quo. A small nerf to generate diversity is a great idea, and one I'm sure most of the EVE community would be fully behind, but killing an entire area of gameplay for whatever reason is something that I'd have thought CCP would never have thought of, especially if EVE is to be a true "sandbox".

You gave us the toys we've used, you've provided the sandbox, you've allowed the mold to set. Don't stomp on our castle because it's the easy way out.

---