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Elaine Celeste	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:39:00 - [1381] Edited by: Elaine Celeste on 01/08/2008 16:42:47 Edited by: Elaine Celeste on 01/08/2008 16:42:09 Originally by: Kerfira The answer is of.c. obvious..... Because the experienced FC (and pilot) KNOWS that nano'ing up his ships means that he wins way more battles than if he don't! Hence the 'I-Win' button! Which brings us back to nano'ing being inherently unbalanced..... And once nanos are removed and people switch to battleships, these will become your supposed 'I-Win' button. So according to your logic, battleships will be too powerful and CCP will have to nerf them as well. Originally by: Kerfira ...Assuming similar gang-sizes (and experience): a. A non-nano gang, no matter how good they are can only fight a nano-gang if they're so specialised they can't effectively fight any other type of enemy. b. A nano-gang otoh, can fight any other gang type except that very specialised one and win. If you can't see the gross imbalance in that situation, you really need some perspective.... Also, when you quote your previous post, are you basically saying that nano-counters are useless against non-nano ships? Energy neutralizers, fast tacklers, snipers, e-war, etc. are all useless against non-nano ships? How so? CELESTE LOTTERIES
SuiJuris	Posted - 2008.08.01 16:41:00 - [1382] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/08/2008 15:37:08 Ok, after running some numbers and assuming we want to set the base (3x OD II, 10MN MWD II, no implants) speed for a Vagabond at 4km/s (other HACs at about 3km/s+) and ceptors over 6km/s (say, 6.5-7km/s minimum to preserve their job as tacklers), these changes would be neccesary: - Changing all MWD speeds to 550% speed boost instead of 500% speed boost (that pushes the speed of said 3xOD II+MWD II SISI Vagabond from 3319m/s to 3648m/s, SISI Zealot from 2211m/s to 2430m/s) - Changing Overdrive Injector II (and higher meta variants to prevent extreme pimping) to 17.5% speed boost instead of 12.5% speed boost - this pushes said 3648m/s Vagabond to 4519m/s with max skills (a slight bit over our goal), pushes the 2430m/s Zealot to 2710m/s with max skills (a slight bit under our goal). Generally it puts us on the right track, with minor ship speed/mass changes putting us there for the appropriate ships. Interceptors get to 6317m/s for the Crow (which is one of the slower Interceptors) that way, which is preety much alright if you keep the MWD signature radius at 500% increase. -In light of the results above, rebalance the masses/speeds of appropriate HACs and recons. - Remove MWD reactivation penality as it nerfs kiting ships as opposed to perma-MWD ships too much I think this changes to the current SISI test implementation would be very much a acceptable middle ground, while preserving the whole smaller/bigger ship balance issue which they have improved on SISI correctly. Edit: the nubbin posting above is silly. You burn no important amount of cap crossing 24km in a Typhoon. I tested it - the speed difference is offset by the more CAP you have now and less cap consumption, and overheating the MWD closing the range (even with base 840m/s speed the plated trimarked Typhoon now has on SISI) has not been the issue vs other battleships (and yes, cap unboosted setup). If you try to burn 50km range with a BS, naturally, you're doing it wrong even though you actually have the damn capacitor to do this. At any rate, improving the MWD back to 550% as I underline above as the acceptable middle ground helps everyone. Ceptors should be vulnerable to Precision light missiles, Its what there made for. They should however be able to outrun a zero nav computer Warrior II, but if someone Fits a nav computer and uses Warrior II's they should be able to hurt ceptors with it. I think the Warrior II's speed needs reduced a little bit to make this possible and then we need to put a Tech2 fit ceptors speed right at where they would be able to outrun the Warrior II's but not precision lights. *******The tears of those who fail to adapt sustain me.
Chi Quan Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:09:00 - [1383] Edited by: Chi Quan on 01/08/2008 17:10:12 Originally by: Malachon Draco People keep bringing up superior force. Nanogangs are not meant to go up against a superior force and win. The only thing nanogangs are meant to go up against is superior NUMBERS. how does your nano small gang fare against a nano fleet? still countering the superior number? Originally by: Malachon Draco There is a distinct difference. If the US attacks a training camp with 100 terrorists and they can't do anything about the B2 stealthbomber dropping the 2000lb explosive, would you then call the US beating a superior force? Hell no. The single B2 is a far superior force over 100 terrorists with kalashnikovs. bla bla ....rality argument that does not fit in an online game blaa blaa.. Originally by: Malachon Draco The same analogy works for nanogangs. I bet that any 20 man nanogang facing a 60 man uncoordinated blob will be flying far more expensive hardware in total, despite the 3-1 number advantage for the blob. If you add in insurance, the difference is even bigger. i seriously beg to differ, how many average carriers can you buy for the money it takes to fit an average nano? but that is the i-spent-more-isk-than-you-so-i-should-be-invincible flawed argument Originally by: Malachon Draco Any 20 man nanogang can be countered, either by a fleet of similar size with people who actually have invested time and isk into perfecting their setups, or by a bigger blob with cheap ships, as long as they have some experience and the ability to execute anti-nano tactics. you forgot the nanoed up rapier/hugin Originally by: Malachon Draco There is no intrinsic difference between a nanogang and a sniper BS gang in terms of engaging. A sniper BS gang can warp in at 200km distance, blow up 2 or 3 enemy ships and warp out before anyone can reach them. The only counter is either another sniper BS gang or some extremely fast 2bn isk crow racing up to tackle them (maybe). or a single h-dictor warping right in the middle of them, or not sitting on a plate where you can be hit by those bs (move away), or ecm, or good old kill-the-tackler-and-gtfod, or probe and get a warpin for your own fleet. see, many more counters than your rapier/huggin Originally by: Malachon Draco What you could do with a 20 man sniper BS gang in an engagement with 60 poorly led/equipped enemies is far more destructive than what you can do with a 20 man HAC gang. And as long as people align properly (made easy by CCP recently), they are just as good in disengaging as a 20 man nano-HAC gang, perhaps even better. yes, but only because the 20 man nano gang can not bring more than 20 scramblers, but those 20 nonanos scrambeled WILL DIE. Originally by: Malachon Draco The only direct difference, a HAC gang can move around between systems more easily, even with gatecamps. I.e. move around blobbed alliance space. Other differences are that nano-HACs are a bit more forgiving of mistakes, with a better chance of extracting ships even though they got webbed/scrammed at some point. But that is compensated by the fact that any mistake in a nano-HAC is far more costly than a mistake with sniper BS, which are pretty damn cheap these days. comparing a swiss army knife with a lemon squeezer here? ---- You don't have to like it - I don't blame you for not liking it.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:10:00 - [1384] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 01/08/2008 17:24:59 Originally by: Kerfira ...Assuming similar gang-sizes (and experience): a. A non-nano gang, no matter how good they are can only fight a nano-gang if they're so specialised they can't effectively fight any other type of enemy. b. A nano-gang otoh, can fight any other gang type except that very specialised one and win. Buddy you have no clue at all. A nano gang is good for roaming not because it a "I-WIN" fit but because its a "STAND AT LEAST HALF A CHANCE WHILE IM FAR FROM HOME AND UNABLE TO SWAP SHIPS OR FITTING'S TO SUIT THE ENGAGMENT" fit. If you ask any pro NANO roaming alliance how they would deal with NANO gang in their home systems they will give you a list of ships and fittings but it will not be all NANO it will be a well balanced and varied ship type and fit gang. A NANO gang is good for roaming cos its OK at fighting MOST other syles but its far from perfect just a good multi purpose fit to use when you cannot easily swap out. But for every style of fit in eve there are better FITS to fight them with than JUST NANO SHIPS if your on home turf and have the option to swap out.
carleyjones Caldari Blood and Silver	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:18:00 - [1385] Originally by: Grakkus Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Lilith Velkor The logical step would be to nerf polycarbs, implants and boosters, and if that isnt enough even gangboosters. But the SiSi implementation is just a senseless nuking of everything related to speed. ding ding ding, we have a winner I have to say the shear size and scope of the changes is evidence to how clueless the author of the changes is. Quoted for truth, this is precisely the issue Requoted coz its the best suggestion so far
squiddie Yakuza Corp THE R0NIN	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:32:00 - [1386] Originally by: carleyjones Originally by: Grakkus Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Lilith Velkor The logical step would be to nerf polycarbs, implants and boosters, and if that isnt enough even gangboosters. But the SiSi implementation is just a senseless nuking of everything related to speed. ding ding ding, we have a winner I have to say the shear size and scope of the changes is evidence to how clueless the author of the changes is. Quoted for truth, this is precisely the issue Requoted coz its the best suggestion so far absolutely. it's far better than trying to tweak the current state of sisi as it doesn't screw up so much more than just speed. small steps wins. drop the sisi patch. it could be so much simpler.
Bobbechk Vigilante inc.	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:37:00 - [1387] Originally by: carleyjones Originally by: Grakkus Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Lilith Velkor The logical step would be to nerf polycarbs, implants and boosters, and if that isnt enough even gangboosters. But the SiSi implementation is just a senseless nuking of everything related to speed. ding ding ding, we have a winner I have to say the shear size and scope of the changes is evidence to how clueless the author of the changes is. Quoted for truth, this is precisely the issue Requoted coz its the best suggestion so far requated 3rd time cuz this is what they should do.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:43:00 - [1388] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 01/08/2008 17:47:00 Originally by: Chi Quan or a single h-dictor warping right in the middle of them, or not sitting on a plate where you can be hit by those bs (move away), or ecm, or good old kill-the-tackler-and-gtfod, or probe and get a warpin for your own fleet. I WANT a hic that can warp into the middle of hostile gangs without a scout or a gang member in amongst the hostiles JUST LIKE YOURS CAN. I WANT all my ships be able to "move away" from a sniper gang that can hit at 249km JUST LIKE YOUR CAN. I WANT to have so much ECM and all of it locking and jamming every hostile sniper on grid all at the same time JUST LIKE YOURS CAN. I WANT to have a prober that can probe, warp to result, call in his gang, gang warps and lands... in less time it takes a BS to land/align/lock/pop and warp off JUST LIKE YOURS CAN. Originally by: Chi Quan yes, but only because the 20 man nano gang can not bring more than 20 scramblers, but those 20 nonanos scrambeled WILL DIE. You can assign 20 different tacklers to scram 20 individual targets all before some warp off??????.....you must be the most uber dude ever. Chi Quan 6 LOSSES 0 KILLS IN NEARLY 2 YEARS.
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.08.01 17:51:00 - [1389] Originally by: Bobbechk Originally by: carleyjones Originally by: Grakkus Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Lilith Velkor The logical step would be to nerf polycarbs, implants and boosters, and if that isnt enough even gangboosters. But the SiSi implementation is just a senseless nuking of everything related to speed. ding ding ding, we have a winner I have to say the shear size and scope of the changes is evidence to how clueless the author of the changes is. Quoted for truth, this is precisely the issue Requoted coz its the best suggestion so far requated 3rd time cuz this is what they should do. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
Captain Alcatraz 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.08.01 18:40:00 - [1390] Nano dosnt really need nerfing in the first place but I wont talk about this If you want to nerf nano cruisers, do it properly at least; with the current changes you are nerfing interceptors, blaster ships, small gang combat, and pretty much the whole minmatar race. To nerf a few cruisers you make every single ship fly like a brick, the MWD reactivation delay is very annoying; The changes to web will make huginn and rapier pretty much useless, and the changes to warp disruptors will make the lachesis and arazu extremly overpowered, they will be the end of small gang "guerilla warfare" as you like to call it; you need to change the bonus of gallente recons so it only apply to warp disruptors. So nerf a bit the few cruisers who can reach ridiculous speeds, but do not make every single ship fly like a brick for this, and dont mess up fundamental modules like the web, warp scrambler and disruptors, especialy w/o changing the ships who are based on those modules (minmatar and gallente recons). Or simply: remove rigs; that would solve every balance problems we have at the moment.. hehe

SuiJuris	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:07:00 - [1391] Originally by: Captain Alcatraz Nano dosnt really need nerfing in the first place but I wont talk about this I think most of us have come to agree it was necessary, maybe not to the degree it has been nerfed. But A nerf is necessary. Originally by: Captain Alcatraz If you want to nerf nano cruisers, do it properly at least; with the current changes you are nerfing interceptors, blaster ships, small gang combat, and pretty much the whole minmatar race. Interceptors do need love in their current state on Sisi anyone with 25 mb of bandwidth and a flight of warrior II's can pwn them. Originally by: Captain Alcatraz The changes to web will make huginn and rapier pretty much useless, and the changes to warp disruptors will make the lachesis and arazu extremly overpowered, they will be the end of small gang "guerilla warfare" as you like to call it; you need to change the bonus of gallente recons so it only apply to warp disruptors. So the Rapier and Huginn can have Webs out to 50+km on a Overheated Faction that decrease speed by 90%, but the Gallente recons can't have a module that turns off MWD's out to 20km or so? *******The tears of those who fail to adapt sustain me.
Abrynn Minmatar CCCP INC	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:37:00 - [1392] All i gotta say is after you nerf my best PvPer i sure hope you make some of my ships better .... did anyone everthink that maybe the reason Mini's always undock in a HAC/Recon is because they are the best ships mini's have ... and while we are at it have any of you ever noticed that mini ships have less armor and shields of any race because its suppost to be the fastest race? Hensforth the ducktape comments there is a reason ppl say that. Besides time, isk and rl there are other reasons this is a ******ed move it affects all of eve. Its all nano mods so that affects t2 invention, ships (look more t2 invention/ building) cause ppl arent gonna buy them, MWD's cause well tbh these will drop too, lets not forget the webs that just dont seem to work in sisi they wont sell either.So whats this,lets point out that the market is gonna crash not only for the ppl doing invention/building but for the ppl who make the t2 components / and riggs!!! It effects PvP as well as 4 races mini/gall/amarr/caldari because of the ability to web/scram is gonna be crap o yeah it will affect you missile spammers too because if your tanked proper you cant scramble/webb so think about that, this nerf is going to make PvP even more laggy and bloby cause to make up for the things they are nerfing there will be more ppl needed in gang so if you ppl think this is gonna make things better lol think again. This effects us all from industry to PvP from amarr to caldari if you dont believe me do some looking at things and ask indy ppl. Plus ppl always complain about Nano but the thing to think about is when u think of nano /ludacris speed did you ever think of if that ship was able to hit you going full speed? of course they cant exept the ishtar because of the drones and for the ones complaining about ppl running and being a nano pilot ive complained too and still do sometimes im not saying that there shouldnt be a speed nerf because i honestly think there should be but not like this ... this affects WAY WAY WAY too much at once there has to be a better way, You CCP guys better ask your economist about this and really think hard. For all you ppl that just wanna fight with each other back and forth this is stupid do me a favor all of you do you homework and actually think about it and you know CCP isnt paying attention to us anyways so whats the point, Can we adapt and adjust yes we can everyone can!! do we want to lose isk skill training time and just the plain all out time ive put into this game? time we have all put into this game? No we dont. Do i want to have to train another race do i think CCP should make me have to no! In the same manner no one wants to have to train sumthing they dont want to...so do me a favar and just think about things
Miss Rumpelstilzchen Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:44:00 - [1393] Originally by: Abrynn All i gotta say is after you nerf my best PvPer i sure hope you make some of my ships better .... did anyone everthink that maybe the reason Mini's always undock in a HAC/Recon is because they are the best ships mini's have ... and while we are at it have any of you ever noticed that mini ships have less armor and shields of any race because its suppost to be the fastest race? Hensforth the ducktape comments there is a reason ppl say that. Besides time, isk and rl there are other reasons this is a *****ed move it affects all of eve. Its all nano mods so that affects t2 invention, ships (look more t2 invention/ building) cause ppl arent gonna buy them, MWD's cause well tbh these will drop too, lets not forget the webs that just dont seem to work in sisi they wont sell either.So whats this,lets point out that the market is gonna crash not only for the ppl doing invention/building but for the ppl who make the t2 components / and riggs!!! It effects PvP as well as 4 races mini/gall/amarr/caldari because of the ability to web/scram is gonna be crap o yeah it will affect you missile spammers too because if your tanked proper you cant scramble/webb so think about that, this nerf is going to make PvP even more laggy and bloby cause to make up for the things they are nerfing there will be more ppl needed in gang so if you ppl think this is gonna make things better lol think again. This effects us all from industry to PvP from amarr to caldari if you dont believe me do some looking at things and ask indy ppl. Plus ppl always complain about Nano but the thing to think about is when u think of nano /ludacris speed did you ever think of if that ship was able to hit you going full speed? of course they cant exept the ishtar because of the drones and for the ones complaining about ppl running and being a nano pilot ive complained too and still do sometimes im not saying that there shouldnt be a speed nerf because i honestly think there should be but not like this ... this affects WAY WAY WAY too much at once there has to be a better way, You CCP guys better ask your economist about this and really think hard. For all you ppl that just wanna fight with each other back and forth this is stupid do me a favor all of you do you homework and actually think about it and you know CCP isnt paying attention to us anyways so whats the point, Can we adapt and adjust yes we can everyone can!! do we want to lose isk skill training time and just the plain all out time ive put into this game? time we have all put into this game? No we dont. Do i want to have to train another race do i think CCP should make me have to no! In the same manner no one wants to have to train sumthing they dont want to...so do me a favar and just think about things word thumpup* 1 of the less ppl they understand what this nerf make
YapYup Gallente Pangalactic Acquisitions	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:46:00 - [1394] Originally by: Exlegion This change is allowing Caldari-specialized characters to actually have better PVP options. I think it's a good change. Caldari ships will actually fair better in PVP. I'm looking forward to the changes. Problem with this statement is that everybody will be flying caldari after these changes. F1 -> F7 and see who has best passive tank.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:51:00 - [1395] Terrible change that goes too far. Stick to polycarbs/implants/boosters nerfs. Leave agility/mwd/webbing/ODs out of it. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Pattern Clarc Invicta.	Posted - 2008.08.01 19:54:00 - [1396] vote or die tbh
Psyflame	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:23:00 - [1397] Ok question. The "discovery" of this speed problem was when Nozh couldn't hit a vaga with his missiles, yes? Well I must inquire, if that "ludicrously speedy" vaga wasn't taking damage, how well were his turrets tracking, and just how much damage was the vaga putting onto target? (I have never flown a vagabond so I don't know) Also, my torp raven is now decimating nano-hacs on sisi. Much thanks ccp, now my battleship class weapons can destroy those cruisers who try to avoid damage... but that brings up another question. Does ccp plan to fix defender missiles? Defenders are a JOKE (tested them with max skills on armageddon day) and I honestly see no viable counter to missiles on the test server. I use tracking disrupters on turret ships, but missiles strike with impunity. Does this seem broken to anyone else? Missiles are getting a huge buff and there are no counters to them, unlike other weapons. At least I can enjoy my insanely overpowered torpedo raven for a few months while the devs realize they made a game-breaking superweapon. My suggestion would be to tone down polycarbs (make them in line with the other rigs,) tone down heat (overheated mwd gets 50% boost while everything else only gets ~15% boost, if you don't want insane speeds, why the lack of uniformity in poly's and heat?) and maybe add an umbrella stacking penalty for speed mods. Nerfs are NEVER popular, how about a buff instead? You want afterburners to be viable, me too. How about boosting afterburners instead of these mwd-shutoff shenannigans? You want to change webs, how about scripted webs? 10km 90% vs 20km 40%, limit rapiers, huginns, and hyenas to the "original" script as to not make them overpowered. I don't know, just some ideas that everyone will probably ignore.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:24:00 - [1398] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 01/08/2008 20:24:51 Originally by: Pattern Clarc vote or die tbh Way to slow you may as well self destruct your hac tbh 4+kms before snakes for hacs tbh.
Miss Rumpelstilzchen Minmatar Black Horizon Ltd	Posted - 2008.08.01 20:37:00 - [1399] Originally by: Psyflame Ok question. The "discovery" of this speed problem was when Nozh couldn't hit a vaga with his missiles, yes? Well I must inquire, if that "ludicrously speedy" vaga wasn't taking damage, how well were his turrets tracking, and just how much damage was the vaga putting onto target? (I have never flown a vagabond so I don't know) can be..but.. well lets be honestly, we don`t need this Nano nerf .. the only change we need is, that the whiners thy cry`s "nerf nano, can kill me but im not them", have to stick togeter and get a counter for the nano gang`s ... RR BS + support (huginn cruse etc..), make some taktic to counter the nanos and dont cry around. but i think it will end like this --> Quote: 1. Nerf speed horrendously -> missiles to good. 2. Nerf missiles -> missiles suck a again. 3. nerf something else -> blah blah blah
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:29:00 - [1400] Originally by: RuriHoshino Was your target also running away from you? Were you running any other mods that require cap? As with all the work that's done on a test server, your mileage may vary. Replicating the conditions of a real gang engagement on TQ are problematic, and as with all combat there are a million tiny differences between each fight that might affect the outcome. Sorry about the name-calling, it's just that whining gets on my nerves at times. My observations indicate that the reduced speed the Typhoon has (therefore, more MWD-ing) is easily covered by two things: (a) Less MWD cap penality, so more total capacitor. (b) Less MWD cap consumption, so more total capacitor. Unless you're trying to catch a runner (who did in fact start accelerating on time; and it probably means you're in a BS gang without other tacklers anyway, or are soloing and landed far out from your target) it's preety easy to get to places with a overheated MWD. Not as easy as it used to be, but oh well - at least the MWD doesn't eat that much cap now. Only other cap using modules would be the point (and 2x webs, but you can stop MWD-ing when you web someone) in that case. Originally by: Polinus I still think the major issue is the agility nerf, specially on minmatar ships. a Vagabond with AB and polies cannot orbit a BS still inside scrambler range at anything more than 60% of its speed. Stop fitting polies, they've become a really suboptimal rig (-9.1% agility + 5.5% speed which will get massively stacking nerfed with ODs if you're fitting them and therefore useless vs -11.7% agility of the low friction muzzle joint) if you're fitting a speed ship (they're OK if you're fitting just one to be able to align/run faster and want to spend just one rigslot, but with their price it's not a good idea, and I don't think their price will fall much thanks to the tritanium bar thing and cargohold opts). 3x OD II and 2 agility rigs are the best combination now for a speed-fit ship, with a extra istab added if you must have more agility. Two polycarbons will give you less agility at a very minute speed bonus (the 4th and 5th effect get stack-nerfed to total uselessness). Remember that the closer you orbit, the less orbit speed you can pull, but you screw tracking more - orbiting at point-blank distance always outruns BS tracking, while orbiting at 9km speed with much much more speed will probably net less damage mitigation overall. Nanofibers are only good for ships which want to fit just one speed/agility mod (and in fact: better then they used to be for this very purpose). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:36:00 - [1401] Originally by: Psyflame The "discovery" of this speed problem was when Nozh couldn't hit a vaga with his missiles, yes? Well I must inquire, if that "ludicrously speedy" vaga wasn't taking damage, how well were his turrets tracking, and just how much damage was the vaga putting onto target? Vagabond, when kiting properly (read: pulsing MWD), is not too hard to hit; in fact, even when MWD-ing it's preety easy to hit with turret-based BCs which have the operating range. It only outruns missiles when MWD-ing, but it cannot perma MWD+point (unless fit with cap mods/injector). Try flying a Stabber with falloff rigs to give you insight how it flies. I've never had issues hitting Vagabonds in a Hurricane. Then again, I've also killed slower interceptors in it so meh. Naturally, with extreme pimping they can reach lolspeeds and be uncatchable, but they're not doing DPS on target then. Originally by: Psyflame Also, my torp raven is now decimating nano-hacs on sisi. They said they were going to rebalance missiles and realize they're a problem. For a defender fix we're probably going to have to wait - if you could just auto-activate them to fire on incoming missiles it'd go a long way ;P Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Tetsuo Hourai	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:41:00 - [1402] Originally by: Bobbechk Originally by: carleyjones Originally by: Grakkus Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Lilith Velkor The logical step would be to nerf polycarbs, implants and boosters, and if that isnt enough even gangboosters. But the SiSi implementation is just a senseless nuking of everything related to speed. ding ding ding, we have a winner I have to say the shear size and scope of the changes is evidence to how clueless the author of the changes is. Quoted for truth, this is precisely the issue Requoted coz its the best suggestion so far requated 3rd time cuz this is what they should do. Quoted a FOURTH time becasue this is what i believe they should do as well. The worst offender is the srcam change and MWD whack
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:45:00 - [1403] Originally by: Cpt Branko Ok, after running some numbers and assuming we want to set the base (3x OD II, 10MN MWD II, no implants) speed for a Vagabond at 4km/s (other HACs at about 3km/s+) and ceptors over 6km/s (say, 6.5-7km/s minimum to preserve their job as tacklers), these changes would be neccesary: - Changing all MWD speeds to 550% speed boost instead of 500% speed boost (that pushes the speed of said 3xOD II+MWD II SISI Vagabond from 3319m/s to 3648m/s, SISI Zealot from 2211m/s to 2430m/s) - Changing Overdrive Injector II (and higher meta variants to prevent extreme pimping) to 17.5% speed boost instead of 12.5% speed boost - this pushes said 3648m/s Vagabond to 4519m/s with max skills (a slight bit over our goal), pushes the 2430m/s Zealot to 2710m/s with max skills (a slight bit under our goal). Generally it puts us on the right track, with minor ship speed/mass changes putting us there for the appropriate ships. Interceptors get to 6317m/s for the Crow (which is one of the slower Interceptors) that way, which is preety much alright if you keep the MWD signature radius at 500% increase. -In light of the results above, rebalance the masses/speeds of appropriate HACs and recons. - Remove MWD reactivation penality as it nerfs kiting ships as opposed to perma-MWD ships too much I think this changes to the current SISI test implementation would be very much a acceptable middle ground, while preserving the whole smaller/bigger ship balance issue which they have improved on SISI correctly. Edit: the nubbin posting above is silly. You burn no important amount of cap crossing 24km in a Typhoon. I tested it - the speed difference is offset by the more CAP you have now and less cap consumption, and overheating the MWD closing the range (even with base 840m/s speed the plated trimarked Typhoon now has on SISI) has not been the issue vs other battleships (and yes, cap unboosted setup). If you try to burn 50km range with a BS, naturally, you're doing it wrong even though you actually have the damn capacitor to do this. At any rate, improving the MWD back to 550% as I underline above as the acceptable middle ground helps everyone. I will quote this, because it&s a good aproche. What happens atm on Sissi? Well some things that worked good(a bit to good in my Opinion) got a change into don&t work in general. This goes out not only to Nano(the reason we get a new world on Sissi atm) but also to other styles of PVP(Blaster Ships(my kind of PVP style in general), the oposite of Nano -> tanked Close Range Ships, small Ships vs big Ships, Tracking vs Missles, Short Range vs med Range, Web Range turned from sudden death Range into Trasversal Tanking Range). In the bigger picture I like most of the changes, simply because eve got more complexe by them, and this is a good thing. Many people are quite **ed right now(well i setteled down a bit after hours of testing, not realy because i think it is not that bad to some ships but i figured out that this leads to very interesting new options). With some tweaking all this things can be sloved, and we can play a new kind of eve, with more choice, more options, less ie cutter, more thinking in Combat, more role vs role, SP vs SP and Player Skill vs Player Skill, FC vs FC, etc. Speed tanking out of Web Range should not become impossilbe, trasversial Tanking in Web Range should not become the new I win button, Blaster ships should not become subpar, Missles and Lasers should not get the upper hand in general. Lots of things are broken atm, lots of things can get fixed, lots of things will change. Simply settle down in a balaced compromiss, giving everybody a Option to live and play here Eve in her own style. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:46:00 - [1404] As the bubbles got reduced in size, there's another fixed distance that's going to be a pain now: FW complexes. You come out 60km from the capture point, even in BS-sized complexes. You can sit 10km (minor)/20km (normal)/30km (major) away from the capture point. That is, you can sit 90km away from the warp-in point in major plexes. In a BS, that's close to two minutes of burning with an MWD until you're there. If you want slower ships to fly around, move the capture points closer to the warp-in points.
Taya Tal	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:48:00 - [1405] Originally by: Tetsuo Hourai Originally by: Bobbechk Originally by: carleyjones Originally by: Grakkus Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Lilith Velkor The logical step would be to nerf polycarbs, implants and boosters, and if that isnt enough even gangboosters. But the SiSi implementation is just a senseless nuking of everything related to speed. ding ding ding, we have a winner I have to say the shear size and scope of the changes is evidence to how clueless the author of the changes is. Quoted for truth, this is precisely the issue Requoted coz its the best suggestion so far requated 3rd time cuz this is what they should do. Quoted a FOURTH time becasue this is what i believe they should do as well. The worst offender is the srcam change and MWD whack This.
Lobster Man Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.01 21:51:00 - [1406] While I do agree a nerf to nanos is severely, severely needed, I think that the hammer may have hit just a touch too hard... I really liked passing 1k/s in my blasterthron..........
Grim Vandal Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.01 22:11:00 - [1407] Edited by: Grim Vandal on 01/08/2008 22:15:17 My hurricane (with arty fit) with an AFTERBURNER and 1x overdrive 1x nanofiber goes about 650 m/s on SiSi now. it has a light tank with it and I can approach and engage turret battleships and more than half of their shots miss me below 60 km which my tank can keep up with until i get below 30 km where I can speed tank BS guns quite fine, occasionally I receive some hits which my tank can keep up with. This same setup can engage blasterboats and it will be a really close call who dies, overloading and skill is needed ... HOWEVER the same ship DIES HORRIBLY even TO RAGE TORPS within 30 secs !! again RAGE torps vs a slightly nano fitted AB hurricane. now imagine normal torps or even faction torps or more like precison torps ... lol it so totally imbalanced it isnt funny anymore, the ONLY option against missile ships is either a strong tank OR an mwd fit above 4 km/s ANYTHING else is futile really a shame, any setup of mine includes a CALDARI RACIAL JAMMER preoverloaded just because missile ships are so f.u.cked up. now look at cruise missiles ... or even precision cruise missiles in a cruiser fitted with an afterbuner going 1 km/s (not that easy to reach on Sisi) you die to 2-3 volleys with the same setup I can evade BS turret fire with some skill however again ... against missiles you are forced to tank or get your setup up to +4km/s even more with eg an afterburner rupture I can evade some damage even from other cruiser sized weapons HOWEVER there is NO CHANCE IN HELL I can reduce ANY dmg from heavy assault or heavy missiles at all I am sorry ccp but the current missile system IS TOTALLY shitty if you ask me and even with the current changes on sisi nothing will change in terms of tactics against missiles. You are still forced to fit a full tank or fit for mwd +4 km/s setups.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.01 22:25:00 - [1408] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/08/2008 22:30:11 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/08/2008 22:28:48 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/08/2008 22:26:48 Originally by: Grim Vandal My hurricane (with arty fit) with an AFTERBURNER and 1x overdrive 1x nanofiber goes about 650 m/s it has a light tank with it and I can approach and engage turret battleships and more than half of their shots miss me below 60 km which my tank can keep up with until i get below 30 km where I can speed tank BS guns quite fine, occasionally I receive some hits which my tank can keep up with. Yes, vs sniper BS. At 30km, a pulse boat will really really make your day horrible. At 60km, a pulse Apoc will just melt you (and you're not going to speedtank it at 30km, since pulses, as a short range gun, have preety solid tracking). MWD-ing close-range ships just burn to you, and proceed to melt you, and many of them can deliver preety nice DPS at 30km in short range fits. In long-range fits, naturally, you out-traverse their guns up close. This is hardly suprising. Quote: the same ship DIES HORRIBLY even TO RAGE TORPS within 30 secs again RAGE torps vs a slightly nano fitted hurricane Hurricanes as BCs are not very nanoable (even on TQ: I've met one really nasty nano-Hurricane, but it did cost about 400M), and even less so post-patch, so you're not speedtanking torps, and without a strong buffer you melt preety quick. But in all seriousness, do you believe you would fare any other way vs a Tempest with barrage or a Amarr BS, god forbid a Apoc (which would melt you out of torp range anyway with your loltransversal at high ranges and pulse tracking. Originally by: Grim Vandal in a cruise fitted with an afterbuner going 1 km/s (not that easy to reach) you die to 2-3 volleys with the same setup I can evade BS turret fire with some skill Yeah, but cruise ravens pay for this (although they shouldn't be, imo, able to engage HACs - but CCP DID say that missiles need rebalancing in face of speed changes which they do) by doing loldps compared to torp ravens or close-range ships in general. Originally by: Grim Vandal even more with eg an afterburner rupture I can evade some damage even from other cruiser sized weapons HOWEVER there is NO CHANCE IN HELL I can reduce ANY dmg from heavy assault or heavy missiles at all. Tbh, a AB-ing Rupture 'speedtanking' other cruiser sized weapons is hitting much less itself, and I find that speedtanking cruiser turrets in a rupture isn't really going to happen, you only outtrack blasters/pulses by a very small amount. Any more speed and you're killing your own tracking. At any rate, vs caldari cruisers, speedtanking missiles isn't a big issue, just gank them. It's not like a Caracal is a big issue for a Rupture. If you have any doubts about Rupture piloting, I would like to point out the vast amount of movies made by our venerable Garmon. They should give you a insight. Post-patch Rupture you can fit much the same way with maybe two AMLs for anti-AF defence (they work fine in conjuction with drones, tested even with my crap missile skills), or a small neut for anti-AF defence (again, works fine) and a heatsink (not the module: a actual heatsink for absorbing heat damage your guns do). You can fit a scram if you'd like fighting chances vs battleships (nerfs your ability to tackle at range), but they will slowly whittle you down with scoop&redeploy of drones (or jamming you with ECM drones and then gaining range). At any rate: CCP said missiles need changes too with the speed changes, so expect a fix there during/after testing. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Venri Zod	Posted - 2008.08.01 22:58:00 - [1409] Edited by: Venri Zod on 01/08/2008 23:00:13 Yeah, CCP the web thing is a total oddity, just enough to make it unviable on large BS, making them awkward for solo gatecamps, and not to mention the whole "Everything goes slower" thing. The low grade snaked I bought a month or so ago are now a complete joke, the Rapier has had its manhood put into a blender, and Guerilla Warfare as we know it is now demlished. Now 2 interceptors and 4 stealthbombers are just as good as 2 Rapiers and an ishtar or two... I suggest next time you don't go and nerf the three races that make up less of the games population than the fourth, go nerf missle boats again like you did with the torps, and you put something this heavy on them, that will be great for buisness.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.08.01 23:04:00 - [1410] Hm. Would it be possible for Nozh or someone else to give small hints on what is being changed on SiSi, so we can help test those changes? I've been trying to see the differences after the last patch to sisi, but couldn't find any. It would make the life for us non-official bughunters a bit easier. :-)



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