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Author	Topic
Aya The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:24:00 - [721] Edited by: Aya on 29/07/2008 18:24:35 I dont see how this chance can be done by 4 people in a 5 hour meeting (presumably with 5 coffee breaks 15 min each) You are doing far too much, and the entire game will need recalibration which would entail a patch the size of Trinity to enable balance in the Eve world. Amarr/Caldari - Overpowered Gallente - Subpar Minmitar - worthless Hacs - Waste of isk Recons - All but curse/arazu/falcon pointless Battleships - Whoever brings more wins Marauders/Blackops - If BS is the new ship to have you need to make these more effective in being a counter. Nanopilots are rich and if these can be effectivley used to counter blobs they will be used. Carriers - New station camping / pos hugging ship Drones - Speed needs reduction Jammers - Range needs reduction Missile Velocity - Reduction Missle Explosion Radius - Reduction Stargates - 8-10km instead of 15km on jump in Dictor Bubbles - 10km Large Bubbles - Less than 20km Snipers (including Muninn/Eagle/Zealot) - Range Reduction (how can i get dictors on them if they will kill me long before I even get close) Stations - Dock Range Reduction + Increased agression timers Tracking - Major reduction These are all proposed problems and solutions that I believe would be needed. But we have all seen CCP only works on 1 thing at a time so these would all be a problem for a long time. I find a lot of people that supported the nano-nerf are even complaining about the magnitude at which everything is being done at once.
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:26:00 - [722] Originally by: Aya You are doing far too much, and the entire game will need recalibration which would entail a patch the size of Trinity to enable balance in the Eve world. The scope of these changes, if implemented even slightly too quickly or too harshly, gives me the impression that TQ will feel like a second Beta. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
Gluecksbaerchichen	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:27:00 - [723] Edited by: Gluecksbaerchichen on 29/07/2008 18:33:47 This nerf is waaaay beyond the pale... Besides what everybody already mentioned: It complicates EVE even further than Emyrian Age already did... I couldn't imaginine being a new player NOW, when it was hard enough 2 years ago when I first got started... With every little so called "patch" there is more shite you have to keep in the back of your mind... This time it's the idiotic scrambler change for one... This stupid thing killed so many things off I'm not motivated enough to even begin listing it all... And for the crowning finale we get LESS versatility and more complication. So really keeping in line with CCP's agenda over at least the past year. /golfclap
supr3m3justic3 Caldari ACE'S OVER 8'S	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:30:00 - [724] About Missiles: About a month ago, wasn't caldari the butt of all the PVP jokes....."you can't use missiles in pvp...you need guns" But any ways...i was on sisi yesterday and i went up against a vaga in my raven and my Torps were only hitting him for like 25-35 damage....mostly cause he nueted and only going 200 m/s. and when he was at full speed or close to it at about 5500 m\s. Guess who could't hit him!!!!! So why again are the missiles being looked at? __________________________________________________
Arcane Carnage The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:32:00 - [725] Originally by: Sceelax News just in!!! Low-Grade Snake Omegas are now worthless!!! All these implants take slot 6. LG snake omega 2561m/s rogue cy1 2562m/s rogue cy2 2611m/s rogue my1 2551m/s rogue my2 2594m/s Save your 350M on a Low Grade Snake Omega (even with the rest of the snake implants!) and buy a Rogue CY2 for 150M or a CY1 for 20M. This was a public service announcement. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! - Illuminati - Pathetic Legion Ures truly kickin' ass Carn
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:33:00 - [726] I guess it has been mentioned before, but just to be on the safe side... MWD reactivation delay kills the idea of range dictation on stabber/vagabond and ships using similar tactics. The problem is once you are in shooting position and turn mwd off, the enemy will burn in on you or away from you, while your own mwd cant be reactivated for 7 seconds. So either you get caught webbed in your first attempt to get in range, or the enemy will kite you with the slower ship and you cant do anything about it. At the moment, it looks like the best way to actually be able to deal damage is pressing approach, sitting 500m from a ship with much better firepower and tank, and blasting away until one dies.
Aya The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:36:00 - [727] Quote: About Missiles: About a month ago, wasn't caldari the butt of all the PVP jokes....."you can't use missiles in pvp...you need guns" But any ways...i was on sisi yesterday and i went up against a vaga in my raven and my Torps were only hitting him for like 25-35 damage....mostly cause he nueted and only going 200 m/s. and when he was at full speed or close to it at about 5500 m\s. Guess who could't hit him!!!!! So why again are the missiles being looked at? Hello? Torps got nerfed LONGGGG AGO. Have you tried shooting him with kinetic cruise missiles. See how fast he dies and come back with the results.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:36:00 - [728] Originally by: supr3m3justic3 About Missiles: About a month ago, wasn't caldari the butt of all the PVP jokes....."you can't use missiles in pvp...you need guns" But any ways...i was on sisi yesterday and i went up against a vaga in my raven and my Torps were only hitting him for like 25-35 damage....mostly cause he nueted and only going 200 m/s. and when he was at full speed or close to it at about 5500 m\s. Guess who could't hit him!!!!! So why again are the missiles being looked at? Learn how to use missiles and missile ships in general. because you seem to be clueless. Raven in both cruise and torp setup is good pvp ship with different roles. So is cerb withHAMs and HMLs. So are other missile based ships. Thing that most noobs dont undestand: even missile ships need webs to kill stuff. And torp raven needs painter (or painter drones).
Arcane Carnage The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:37:00 - [729] Originally by: AshtarDJ CCP wants ppl to commit themselves to a fight. If you go in, you stay there until either you've won, or died. Running should never be an easy option. What are we all gallente now? Minmatar as a race have always used hit and run tactics (yes im roleplaying) so why not have this as a valid tactic in the game. - Illuminati - Pathetic Legion Ures truly kickin' ass Carn
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:42:00 - [730] Originally by: AshtarDJ CCP wants ppl to commit themselves to a fight. If you go in, you stay there until either you've won, or died. Running should never be an easy option. Like docking, jumping through a gate, being aligned and insta warping, hugging the edge of a POS?.

Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:42:00 - [731] Originally by: AshtarDJ CCP wants ppl to commit themselves to a fight. If you go in, you stay there until either you've won, or died. Running should never be an easy option. Ok: remove station hugging, pos hugging, make aggro timers longer and keep agro timers when jumping thru gate (no jump and log off). If you want to pvp - do it all the way not run when shit hits the fan.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:43:00 - [732] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 29/07/2008 18:45:22 Originally by: Arcane Carnage Originally by: AshtarDJ CCP wants ppl to commit themselves to a fight. If you go in, you stay there until either you've won, or died. Running should never be an easy option. What are we all gallente now? Minmatar as a race have always used hit and run tactics (yes im roleplaying) so why not have this as a valid tactic in the game. This. It always puzzled me that BS pilots protected by their massive tanks cried the cruisers will run from them. Who is the real coward here? In other words, if there were BS-sized assault launchers to deal with small/fast ships, nobody would use them, just my 2 cents.
supr3m3justic3 Caldari ACE'S OVER 8'S	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:48:00 - [733] Edited by: supr3m3justic3 on 29/07/2008 18:49:42 Learn how to use missiles and missile ships in general. because you seem to be clueless. Raven in both cruise and torp setup is good pvp ship with different roles. So is cerb withHAMs and HMLs. So are other missile based ships. Thing that most noobs dont undestand: even missile ships need webs to kill stuff. And torp raven needs painter (or painter drones). Yea but i'm talking about missiles vs. speed. Not missiles vs. Frigs w\sig. radius of a BC from the TP doing speeds slower than my BS..... __________________________________________________
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:50:00 - [734] Edited by: Haakelen on 29/07/2008 18:50:38 Originally by: supr3m3justic3 Not missiles vs. Frigs w\sig. radius of a BC from the TP doing speeds slower than my BS..... Is this English? What I... think... you're saying is that target paint... No, I don't get it. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
supr3m3justic3 Caldari ACE'S OVER 8'S	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:50:00 - [735] Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: supr3m3justic3 Not missiles vs. Frigs w\sig. radius of a BC from the TP doing speeds slower than my BS..... Is this English? No its eve! __________________________________________________
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:52:00 - [736] Originally by: Exlegion Have you considered scripting the scrambler? It actually sounds like a good idea in theory. I'd like to see what some of the pro's and con's would be to that. Anyone up to a fair elaboration without bias? Pro script: - arazu/lachesis would be a little less overpowered (ofc we are looking at a regular setup, with a few best faction scrams and a max skilled claymore friend) - disabling mwd and putting 2 points on the target the same time looks a bit too powerful Con script: - would diminish the utility on frigates
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:56:00 - [737] So have the devs come to the conclusion that this nerf is totally wrong and bad for the game yet or are they trying to salvage some respect by nerfing other things to compensate and doing this to all the players?:- http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/1405/lalacanthearyoucatxy2.jpg
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.07.29 18:57:00 - [738] Ya might also think abt removing TP bonus from rapier/hug and replacing it with "web effectiveness" bonus (similiar to kronos/paladin, maybe tad weaker).
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:12:00 - [739] Heaven forbid you should actually have to choose to commit to a fight before getting in Scram range.... I mean seriously I understand why people nano ships.... Because you can choose when to and when not to engage. This nerf still allows HAC's to be faster then other stuff. There still fast enough to avoid some damage, and if they commit to it and fit for it they can fight a BS inside web range and Win. The problem is now once they have tested the waters and found out they can't win they can no longer get out... too bad. Shame you actually have to commit yourself to a fight now....
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:17:00 - [740] Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 29/07/2008 19:20:35 Originally by: Rathion Heaven forbid you should actually have to choose to commit to a fight before getting in Scram range.... I mean seriously I understand why people nano ships.... Because you can choose when to and when not to engage. The problem is now once they have tested the waters and found out they can't win they can no longer get out... too bad. Shame you actually have to commit yourself to a fight now.... Station hugging, gate hugging, POS hugging, staying aligned and insta warping, logging off after jumping through a gate, staying docked or inside a pos, cloaking, bouncing from SS to SS. Yea ok bud the ability to engage or disengage is only available to nano ships....................... My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.

teji	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:17:00 - [741] Edited by: teji on 29/07/2008 19:18:21 Edited by: teji on 29/07/2008 19:17:28 Originally by: Rathion This nerf still allows HAC's to be faster then other stuff. Yea, they are still faster than titans, freighters, carriers, dreads, and even some battleships! I mean what more can you ask for.
Ferocious FeAr THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:19:00 - [742] The Rokh with Neutron Blaster Cannons will have a very hard time tracking cruisers, not only because of the change of web bonus but because it can't use MWD point and web without disabling its tank. I'd suggest you increase tracking or increase tech 2 webs (probably a good time to make them worth using over Fleeting...) to 65% and adjust all the faction webs to match/surpass the effectiveness of tech 2. The speed changes on the HAC is a great thing, I think it brings back old school playstyle where people may have to tank their HACs. The vagabond still can hit speeds of 4000 but that is with snakes. I'd like to see the rapier/huginn get their bonus changed from painters to webifier percentage increase.....where it would top out at 75% at level 5. Don't hate me, learn to love me
Max CAOD Caldari MAX INTEL Corporation	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:21:00 - [743] Edited by: Max CAOD on 29/07/2008 19:22:53 Well thought through idea of nerfing. Affects all speedtanking ships obviously but especially killing the to use GM's words "ludicrous speeds" that are overpowered. The fastest ships are supposed to be the ceptors probably, weak ships that ONLY can rely on speed to survive. A cruiser can have a small buffertank. HAC's will still be able to do 2-3km/s which avoids almost all missile damage and large guns so it's not killing speedtanking, it changes speedtanking. No, battleships won't be nanoable after patch and they are not intended to (machariel not counted). Good nerf. Hope you dare do this patch even though the 1000+ whiners that can only play the game because of their insane speed tanking ships. And teji.. fail at trolling... HAC's will be slower then interceptors, but faster then cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, commandships etc. They can still speedtank, but can no longer be invulnerable to a whole fleet shooting at them. Your reporter of the BOB's progress in the MAX campaign and of the
teji	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:26:00 - [744] Originally by: Max CAOD And teji.. fail at trolling... HAC's will be slower then interceptors, but faster then cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, commandships etc. They can still speedtank, but can no longer be invulnerable to a whole fleet shooting at them. Nice troll. They were never invulnerable to a whole fleet shooting at them.
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:28:00 - [745] Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 29/07/2008 19:18:21 Edited by: teji on 29/07/2008 19:17:28 Originally by: Rathion This nerf still allows HAC's to be faster then other stuff. Yea, they are still faster than titans, freighters, carriers, dreads, and even some battleships! I mean what more can you ask for. Yes there still Faster then everything Larger then them HOLY SHIT smaller stuff goes faster then HACs, stop crying. AND with the Web nerf and speed changes they are still FAST ENOUGH to speed tank albiet now they have to do it where it was meant to be done, Up close. Now on a constructive note to add to this topic, the only 2 things that need looked at on top of the other changes is maybe change missiles / Light drones a little to give Inties some breathing room, I agree Precision lights should hurt and kill Ceptors, and I agree Light drones With a Drone nav computer should as well. But I don't think the stock Warrior II's should be able to run down Inties as it just allows to many ships to pwn them. Also I am against the whole scripting of the scrambler as it would detract from Frigates / Assault Frigates as viable Tacklers.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:30:00 - [746] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 29/07/2008 19:34:14 Originally by: teji Originally by: Max CAOD And teji.. fail at trolling... HAC's will be slower then interceptors, but faster then cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, commandships etc. They can still speedtank, but can no longer be invulnerable to a whole fleet shooting at them. Nice troll. They were never invulnerable to a whole fleet shooting at them. Ignore de BOB pet buddy they only support the capital blob and even that is lacking as all they do is reinforce posses as they know they cannot hold vast areas of space any more. But on topic what role do CCP see HACS like the vaga and others performing now that a BC is a much more viable ship for dps and friggies are considerable better tacklers, will you be removing them from the game as they are now redundant?.
Lyteros xPlaguex	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:32:00 - [747] Edited by: Lyteros on 29/07/2008 19:33:22 i think this is my first post in the eo.com (away from buy / sell orders). i do this, because i think this "changes" are way to extreme. i'm flying ONLY in small groups, erlier in empirewars, now i'm doing lowsec with my corp. we're used to fight 2 to 1 outnumbred or even worse and never blobbed ourselfs. in my early eve days i also experienced 0.0 and fleetfights... so i've seen almoust any pvp option in eve. this is my point of view: so you want to nerv nano (which i find GOOD, because it was overpowred), but to bring it in line, you get on to nerf missiles. you want to boost afterburners - so you nerf the web. and the additional mwd nerf trough a "mwd stopping" scrambler. is that correct? 1. nano nerf. very appreciated, the problem was that way too many ships were doing a great nano speed, so you almoust couldnt catch them and they had almoust no risk. almoust every HAC was nanoable, the hurricane BC (!) and even the machariel BS (!!!) with pretty expensive fitting... that is just wrong. but... away from the hacs abused to nano... the vagabond was living from its speed, and it needs speed. what can you do against a recon decloaking 120 km away from your small group? after the nerf a 6,2 km /s vaga goes 3 km / s - no chance to get to this recon in any acceptable time. using a ceptor is utterly useless, no drones and no damage (and 1 multispec switches it off for sure). do you have to bring a sniper BS in every small group, in case there could be a enemy recon or sniper? the huginn and rapier were made against nanos, so why cant they still go 2-3 km/s? you destroyed some of the variation in this game, instead of improving it. for their heavy relying on speed, this nerf is going to change minmatar to minmatards. one of the best "basic" methods, using a nano ship to get rid of annoying 120 km away jammers, is taken away. you have no chance tackling someone 40-50 km away before he warps off... exept interceptors, that may be good in 0.0 or empire wars. but for every pirate, who mainly does pvp in lowsec... they are no option to a vagabond. (or at least a nano ship) a ceptor does no mentionable damage, dosen't survive a few sentry hits, is chanceless if the enemy group has a huginn / rapier. an AF is pretty much the same, with a little more punch and a little less speed. since many fights go on at a gate (sadly) in many cases a ceptor isnt usefull at all. if we already fly in low numbers, why shall we cripple our group even more and switch to ceptors? is lowsec pvp supposed as gatecamping, so we dont need fast tacklers? the apoc with its long range pulse lasers will get a vast boost from this. its still able to fight closerange, trough all around decreased speed it will hit much better, due to its range it may fill the missing "longrange" role, that some nanoships took till now. i heard to counter that extreme speed loss that occurs everywhere, you NEED to rebalance the now FOTM missiles (lol?) and here you get a nice nervtrain. no good sign imho. next, there is the new mwd timer - for every experienced pilot who uses his mwd and nanoship in a advanced way, activates and deactivates his mwd in case of the situation. a vaga with active mwd doesnt hit anything - maybe exept of a standing BS with active mwd. with that 10 seconds reactivation delay, you could introduce a little neon sign above the using pilot, saying "here, kill me!" as long the timer is active. if you want to nerv the "nano blobbing" thats good, but please dont do it by area bombing... from my point of view you'll cause a pro blobb effect. you get more risk loosing your ship, with the mwd timer and all the other problems, so you rather get a few friends more, to decrease the risk, instead of taking the chance of losses. with no chance to escape the blobb trough "beeing faster" you have to blobb more yourself, so no pvp but waiting for increased numbers. after all, the whole "highspeed" way to play is gone if this patch comes like that.
teji	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:33:00 - [748] Originally by: Rathion Yes there still Faster then everything Larger then them HOLY SHIT smaller stuff goes faster then HACs, stop crying. AND with the Web nerf and speed changes they are still FAST ENOUGH to speed tank albiet now they have to do it where it was meant to be done, Up close. Too bad battlecruisers will match the speed / agility and do better in the dps and tanking department. Also as a bonus be insurable. I will adapt, I doubt most of the people here will. They will just call upon ccp to nerf something else because they still suck.
Lyteros xPlaguex	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:34:00 - [749] some ideas from me to stop that "insane speed" - you could: - reduce overall effective mwd boost (10-20%?) - maybe drop speedmod bonus - stacking penalitys for speedmods and secondly speedrigs, bring polys in line, and please not the "useless" line - greatly reduce snake sets (to 1/3 from actual?) and speed gangmodule effectivity - rebalance BC and BS shipmass effect for mwd calculations (so no more BC and BS nano***s possible) - mwd overload bonus change from 50% to 25% this should get the highspeed nanos back to acceptable speeds, the 8+ km vaga should get around 4 km or around 5-6 km with faction (acceptable imho) and the abused nano hacs decrease down to 2,x km, or 3,x with faction. so they can be hit with missiles, they can be neuted, rapier and huginn keep their usefullness. still they are fast enough to keep themself alive, have the mobility / speed advantage, but not in godmode like before. if they get webbed, the drift wount take them out of your web, if you mwd after them yourself. nano was a intresting option to fight against the blob - you have the chance to get out alive, and you're still able to take down some blobbers, while fighting them (greatly) outnumbered. how many other ways do we have to do that? there are so much whines about 8-10 km / s vagas - did the whiners ever think about the ISK put into this ship? full faction fit, snake set, months of skilltime... so you end up between 1 - 3 bil isk. im mean, why not nerf the PvE raven, with 3 bil isk invested its a mean and unstoppable ISK generating machine... my dominix cant compete with it at all! nerf nerf nerf! pay much - get much. 2. afterburner boost the afterburner is not used because its crap. you are way to slow for most things... you cant get out of bubbles in time. you cant tackle someone standing 40 km from you (in a belt e.g.) and is aligning to warp out as he sees you. you cant get fast to anyone sniping or jamming your group from 100 km. you cant reach gates fast to jump back, after you jumped trough, or get at least in jumpgrange. you cant close the ranks of your group if you get nanobumped out of it, or want to build a spidertank formation. you cant get out of the warpdisruptor range before you die or someone webs you, if your group is loosing the fight. if your webbed youre dead. you're to slow to drift out. seriously, what insanty will make me EVER use a ab for 300 m/s on my BS instead of 9xx with a MWD? why should i use a 2 km/s mod on my ceptor if i could go 5 km/s and tackle much much better with it? even if the mwd can be disrupted... i keep myself out of range or dont need the mwd after beeing in position (but to get there!). the 25% cap penality isnt that bad, for most pvp setups already are using cap injektors or not as intense at cap using and so cycling their mwd if the need arises etc, vagabond e.g. is almoust able to perma mwd with one large cap battery. pve mwd is not an option, for its not usable in deadspace. in worst case the 25% are annoying or dont allow you to permarun a pvp fit... if you want to make AB more intresting, boost its output to at least 170% basic speed boost (200% T2, 225% best faction), and maybe make it somewhat more intresting then mwd. e.g. reduce web effectivity against afterburners to 50% (when not changed web!)... because you have to go into web range to take advantage from signature vs speed with a AB. you have much less max speed then MWD users, but you will be much less compromised trough small gang warfare and web itself. you can survive 1 web, so you can engage closely with your AB... solo or in small groups. (getting primary from a blob mens you are dead. no matter what fitting...) in combat this would prove a much better survival chance in small fights, but with 2+ webs you'd be also slow enough to be "easy" killable. an AB'ing ship could not be faster then drones and missiles, even not webbed. this is just a "5 minutes thought about" example... there are many possibilitys.
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:34:00 - [750] Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Station hugging, gate hugging, POS hugging, staying aligned and insta warping, logging off after jumping through a gate, staying docked or inside a pos, cloaking, bouncing from SS to SS. Yea ok bud the ability to engage or disengage is only available to nano ships....................... I don't know if you're doing it purposely or not, but all those options you mentioned could apply to a player who has not committed to a fight. If you stay docked at a station or aligned to warp at the first sign of hostiles you have decided to avoid, not fight. If you jump through a gate, decide NOT to engage and instead head back to the gate, again, no decision was made to engage. The same with players behind a POS. You can't shoot behind a POS shield. The difference is that with a nano you can CHOOSE to engage and if things start going sour for you, then you can CHOOSE to disengage. That's the difference. If you're at a gate and decide to engage you already get an aggression timer on you. But I suspect you already know this and are just looking to distract from the issues. The only thing you can really argue is someone gate-hugging. But you already know it is pointless if they're near a station and can consider it as good as the target being docked. In space in the middle of no where the only pilot with the option to engage and disengage at will is the nano pilot. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr

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