EVE Search - Speed Rebalanced: Feedback thread

Dear Ccp

I have been playing video games for more than twenty years now, some friends call me addict, others like to share my addiction. All types of games except football/train/yaddayaddayadda managers.
As I was getting older so did the industry and my taste shifted towards particular genres. Two of wich are role playing games and space sims.
For more than two years now Eve Online has been my favourite game. First year
was tough and a waste of money/time compared to second one.
Why? I needed a year to get a hang of it, to find right ppl to play it with and to completly fall in a (platonic) love with it and fun it can offer.
A year to reduce playing hours into something that suits human being, to figure out
what I can, cant and must do in various situations to come on top, a year to get in that place where every rookie wants to be when he undocks for the first time..

Let me describe my Eve gameplay. I log on to ts, throw hails and log on to Eve. I look after what needs to be done for corp and its members, talk, laugh, exchange news... Doing the moving, earning isk and getting all logistics done is 30-40% of my playtime, rest is pvp. More accurately, roaming in small/medium nano gang, poking around the big space holding alliances and picking for a fight by ganking their ratters. For last year been doing that with some of the best scouts and FCs in game. We can't take space from them, we get just what we want, thrill of the kill
and little blue flashes on the screen.

Will I be able to do that after this allout game shift towards blobs?
Do I have to spend 100% or 150% more time earning isk so I can roam for less amount of time than before? Join someone who holds space? Will You remove npc regions at some point? Is running of two clients something that will become standard in playing this game? I had only one for 2 years and it was enough.
Do You really have to change a game mechanic in a way no one is using it anymore, ever? Do You think that EvE pvp needs to let go the elite taste of few shooting on many? I'm not talking about snakes, i'm talking about t2, 3% and bunch of people that know what is what in this game.
Shifting towards something that is more suiting to new player, gradualy increasing their number? I will try to understand. We live in strange times. Or was last 2 years waste of time for me? Becouse You will keep doing this with every game feature that "works" in my gameplay/style/...?
Shifting towards whole new gameplay, babysteps or giant 7 league ones, end of it is removing my gameplay.
Can't say if small gang pvp is really dead for sure or not. But from where I'm standing it looks like it's in coma caused by DD, bubbles and blobs, 3rd party
bleep bleep bleep pieces of (insert appropriate term) and god knows what else..

Can You people be so kind and stop changing the game in a way I need to put more time into it to get some fun out of it? Who is your target consumer/audience?

So let me tell You what will happen if this goes on: gonna play untill I run out of isk, after that I'll just spend time on something else. Not gonna recycle char,
sell account. Not gonna be mad. Just gonna hibernate, and peek a bit when u send me that 2 weeks free gameplay time. Sun is brightest after a
worst rain and thunderstorm afterall, sometimes...

thanks for the fun
You made possible,

Yours Komo

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Author	Topic
MiIitary Genius	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:34:00 - [751] CCP guys just need to make sure that HAC's go just fast enough that they take some damage and stand a chance of getting webbed, warp disrupted etc. So far so good. If they tweak stuff they need to make sure that they remain vulnerable, yeah vulnerable just like the target they were shooting at. They need to make sure that interceptors can go fast enough to not be instpopped while they are waiting for the rest of the gang to arrive on the scene, but not be invulnerable. People got used to being able to run at a moments notice, tactics will need to change but nano gangs will just have to pick their targets better. Can anyone give details on the kind of damage a 4.5 to 5km/sec inty will take from light and heavy missles? (precision, faction and t1) Also can T2 sentries do any kind of decent damage to a 3km/sec vaga?
Lyteros xPlaguex	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:36:00 - [752] Edited by: Lyteros on 29/07/2008 19:36:16 testserver issues: i recently got told by a corp mate, what occured on the testserver with the actual changes and mwd, ab and web. his fully t2 fitted BS got killed by a t1 frig and a t1 cruiser, who were AB'ing around him and waited till his cap died. later he tried the same against an assaultfrig, his BS also died. his web was just useless in both cases - his drones were dead before he could do a thing. so a 150 mil T2 nanoHAC, that cost you months of skilltime, that is not insurable and not tanked, and that in fact cant kill a T2 PvP BS on its own at all, but can tackle most BS for around 2 minutes, till its cap runs out and it has to leave, - is not okay? but some random newbs in a 5 mil t1 cruiser and a 300k frig killing a T2 BS on their own are okay? even one crappy drone based assaultfrig that can solo a PvP BS? with an halo implant set, it gets as rediculous as a faction fit snake vaga was. oh and the curse is just uber with that changes. 3. webber nerf (oh my god!) which sane reason is there to nerf web? in my mind the thought itself is ridiculous. if you're a blaster user, or shortrange pvper in general, its a real problem - you wount hit much anymore, you cant keep someone surly in your combat range - not with a web that only causes 50% reduction. huginn / rapier will be much less intresting (so you cant kill your target with 200 dps rapier, now you cant even pin him down.) even now its not possible to stop nano*s surely with your web, they simply drift out of the range and fly on... with a even lesser speed reduction this will be a laugh. 90% reduction from 6k means 600 m/s left. 60% from 3k means 1200 m/s left. this means: to get someone really slow, you NEED TO BLOBB to get enough webbers on him in the future. in small scale you need ships with 5 medslots, to get dualweb online, or you cant tackle anything but roids. the actual situation is, if you're webbed you're almoust standing, exept you are nanofitted. for this fact everything thats nano or depending on speed stays out of your webber range. so in the future, no change here, exept messing up the ablities of closerange ships. you need 2-3 webbers for the effect that ONE T2 web causes today. if you want to boost the AB, then why dont boost the AB but nerf web? if you are in a BS and some t1 cruiser shows up and orbits you with his AB, you're doomed. (or forced to deagress and jump trough... to run away from a t1 cruiser.) your web wount help, he goes for your drones first, and your guns will not hit him, if he fitted a TD youre chanceless. if you want to survive, you need to get more friends - hello blob. testerver showed a mega with web (37,5% tracking bonus with blasters!) will be killed trough a AB rupture or thorax. so a 5 mil ship, you can fly fully fitted from start on, is able to kill a 150 mil BS with about one year skilltime? so you need to be able to fit dualweb to take on competition? 4. scrambler deactivates mwd its a nice idea, but i think it will prove difficult... if you have someone mwd'ing, he'll do anything he can to keep you away from scrambler range. if you have a smaller ship, and can get him into range, he'll just blow you up. (ceptor tackling vaga problem...) if you have a similar or larger ship, you wount get him in range so easy. most mentionable, if you are near enough to scramble him (7,5 km) you could have webbed him for 2,5 kms... and most nano*s dont have webbers themselfs. so you just have to mwd after him till his drift stops and hes pinned - and dead. i'm no nanofriend myself. my alt can fly vaga and friends, trough i only did for scouting. i prefer other tactics. to sum up: nano nerf yes, but please with reason and no area bombing. if you want to get rid of the blobb, why dont just nerf the blobb? what is with months of lost skilltime to get nano minmatar trained up, thats getting to be extreme nerfed? sorry for the spam... :P greetings, lyteros
MenanceWhite Amarr Red Light Navy	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:36:00 - [753] About drones, Warrior IIs with decent skills and a drone nav can crank enough MWD speed to catch pretty much any nanoship om SiSi. However they're also fairly easy to pop themselves (rockets, small turrets kill them easilly) I'm pretty sure that if you're sending the drones on anything more than a single AF, your targets will be able to kill the drones before the drones even pop a single of them. ValkIIs with 2 drone navs can get ~2.3km/s MWD speed, which means that they can catch most of the things, plus they'll hit almost everything with just a single omnidir tracking added. In conclusion: WarriorIIs will be effective against any solofrig, but can't do much about smaller gangs if the gang targets them first. ValkIIs could prove to be a problem, however you're using up 3 medium slots to make them that effective ve even nanoships on SiSi, which is'nt exactly cheap. Now a domni with 2x omnidir tracking 2x drone nav assigning their drones to a inty, I want to see someone use that against something nano. I'm sure nanos won't stand a chance. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:36:00 - [754] The new speed of battleships is pretty harsh, imho. It makes a tier3 BS barely 10m/sec faster that a skilled freighter. It also does nothing to lessen the necessity of a speed mod, and afterburners aren't good enough. ------------------------------------------
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:38:00 - [755] Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 29/07/2008 19:45:47 Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Station hugging, gate hugging, POS hugging, staying aligned and insta warping, logging off after jumping through a gate, staying docked or inside a pos, cloaking, bouncing from SS to SS. Yea ok bud the ability to engage or disengage is only available to nano ships....................... I don't know if you're doing it purposely or not, but all those options you mentioned could apply to a player who has not committed to a fight. If you stay docked at a station or aligned to warp at the first sign of hostiles you have decided to avoid, not fight. If you jump through a gate, decide NOT to engage and instead head back to the gate, again, no decision was made to engage. The same with players behind a POS. You can't shoot behind a POS shield. Station huggers can de aggro and dock, so can gate huggers, pos huggers can move in and out of the bubble, a aligned ship can still shoot and be effective until a ship get within a certain range then warp off, a ship with a cloak can cloak and uncloak with only a small delay in lock time. How often do fights in eve happen in the middle of nowhere btw????????. I really should not need to explain these things to a member of a good pvp allia....oh your in hydra nvm. PS: 0 KILLS 3 LOSSES SINCE 2005 i hope this is a cyno alt your posting with?. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:43:00 - [756] Originally by: teji Originally by: Rathion Yes there still Faster then everything Larger then them HOLY SHIT smaller stuff goes faster then HACs, stop crying. AND with the Web nerf and speed changes they are still FAST ENOUGH to speed tank albiet now they have to do it where it was meant to be done, Up close. Too bad battlecruisers will match the speed / agility and do better in the dps and tanking department. Also as a bonus be insurable. I will adapt, I doubt most of the people here will. They will just call upon ccp to nerf something else because they still suck. Teji, you really fail at this, Do you know Why you don't see ANY nano' BC's right now, BECAUSE BATTLE CRUISERS ARE TO FAT AND SLOW TO NANO, this has not changed, HAC's are fast enough to do this, Battlecruisers are not.
Komoran Gallente Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:45:00 - [757] Dear Ccp I have been playing video games for more than twenty years now, some friends call me addict, others like to share my addiction. All types of games except football/train/yaddayaddayadda managers. As I was getting older so did the industry and my taste shifted towards particular genres. Two of wich are role playing games and space sims. For more than two years now Eve Online has been my favourite game. First year was tough and a waste of money/time compared to second one. Why? I needed a year to get a hang of it, to find right ppl to play it with and to completly fall in a (platonic) love with it and fun it can offer. A year to reduce playing hours into something that suits human being, to figure out what I can, cant and must do in various situations to come on top, a year to get in that place where every rookie wants to be when he undocks for the first time.. Let me describe my Eve gameplay. I log on to ts, throw hails and log on to Eve. I look after what needs to be done for corp and its members, talk, laugh, exchange news... Doing the moving, earning isk and getting all logistics done is 30-40% of my playtime, rest is pvp. More accurately, roaming in small/medium nano gang, poking around the big space holding alliances and picking for a fight by ganking their ratters. For last year been doing that with some of the best scouts and FCs in game. We can't take space from them, we get just what we want, thrill of the kill and little blue flashes on the screen. Will I be able to do that after this allout game shift towards blobs? Do I have to spend 100% or 150% more time earning isk so I can roam for less amount of time than before? Join someone who holds space? Will You remove npc regions at some point? Is running of two clients something that will become standard in playing this game? I had only one for 2 years and it was enough. Do You really have to change a game mechanic in a way no one is using it anymore, ever? Do You think that EvE pvp needs to let go the elite taste of few shooting on many? I'm not talking about snakes, i'm talking about t2, 3% and bunch of people that know what is what in this game. Shifting towards something that is more suiting to new player, gradualy increasing their number? I will try to understand. We live in strange times. Or was last 2 years waste of time for me? Becouse You will keep doing this with every game feature that "works" in my gameplay/style/...? Shifting towards whole new gameplay, babysteps or giant 7 league ones, end of it is removing my gameplay. Can't say if small gang pvp is really dead for sure or not. But from where I'm standing it looks like it's in coma caused by DD, bubbles and blobs, 3rd party bleep bleep bleep pieces of (insert appropriate term) and god knows what else.. Can You people be so kind and stop changing the game in a way I need to put more time into it to get some fun out of it? Who is your target consumer/audience? So let me tell You what will happen if this goes on: gonna play untill I run out of isk, after that I'll just spend time on something else. Not gonna recycle char, sell account. Not gonna be mad. Just gonna hibernate, and peek a bit when u send me that 2 weeks free gameplay time. Sun is brightest after a worst rain and thunderstorm afterall, sometimes... thanks for the fun You made possible, Yours Komo
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:48:00 - [758] Edited by: Exlegion on 29/07/2008 20:01:40 Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean Station huggers can de aggro and dock, so can gate huggers, pos huggers can move in and out of the bubble, a aligned ship can still shoot until a ship get within a certain range then warp off. I'll say it again, not for you, but for those actually interested in the real issues. Station huggers are as good as docked targets. You know this. No unkown there. For a smart target the outcome will be one: Dock. If a ship is de-aggroing too quickly at a gate then perhaps we should ask CCP to increase the aggro timer then. Don't you think so? Quote: How often do fights in eve happen in the middle of nowhere btw????????. Away from stations and POS? VERY often. Don't twist my words. I mean in belts and gates. Quote: I really should not need to explain these things to a member of a good pvp allia....oh your in hydra nvm. PS: 0 KILLS 3 LOSSES SINCE 2005 i hope this is a cyno alt your posting with?. You know, I see alot of immaturity among Pandemic Legion. I hardly like to generalize but people like you make it extremely hard not to. If I can offer you some advice it would be to grow up and stop it with the ****-waving. It really doesn't make you a better man in real life. Take my word for it. I really hope CCP is taking notice on who's contributing the most to the signal-to-noise ratio. The few players that have brought good points from both sides are drowned among the sea of immaturity and egotistical comments in this thread. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us.* - Gang Starr
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:50:00 - [759] Originally by: Exlegion Quote: How often do fights in eve happen in the middle of nowhere btw????????. Away from stations and POS? VERY often. Don't twist my words. I mean in belts and gates. deagress and jump through bro hydra My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar Stimulus	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:54:00 - [760] Originally by: Vengal Seyhan Thus, the Vaga itself pops in about one minute. If you actually tested this you'd know this is not true. Missiles do not hurt the vagabond in a way it cannot manage unless the vagabond turns and looses speed. There are too many people here saying stuff that just is not factual. The price of the ship required to fustrate and succeed at its ROLE on TQ is far less than it is now. You can even get into blaster range against a Deimos and survive becuase it cannot completely web you. The vagabond is fine. People are just crying. Not to say it can't use a bit more speed when it has snakes in but saying its useless now is hobbit knee jerking. Team Minmatar

Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:55:00 - [761] Edited by: Exlegion on 29/07/2008 20:06:22 Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: Exlegion Quote: How often do fights in eve happen in the middle of nowhere btw????????. Away from stations and POS? VERY often. Don't twist my words. I mean in belts and gates. deagress and jump through bro hydra Keep it up with the personal and alliance insults. I wish you'd keep your hate-spewing vitriol in CAOD but it's obvious we're not dealing with mature players here. I give up trying to give feedback as this thread is more of a smackfest, specifically for Pandemic Legion. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:58:00 - [762] Small update on my speed/agility lists above: The Maelstrom is now the least agile battleship of all. Abaddon and Rokh used to be less agile, but both got less agility reduction than the Maelstrom. At least the Mael is still (slightly) faster than both Abaddon and Rokh. I hope that this is some kind of calculation mistake, all in all - I guess they used some fixed formula to adjust all masses/inertia modifiers for various races, and this is just weird corner cases showing up. :-)
Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:58:00 - [763] Originally by: Exlegion Quote: I really should not need to explain these things to a member of a good pvp allia....oh your in hydra nvm. You know, I see alot of immaturity among Pandemic Legion. I hardly like to generalize but people like you make it extremely hard not to. If I can offer you some advice it would be to grow up and stop it with the ***-waving. It really doesn't make you a better man in real life. Take my word for it. Yeah, I agree, mostly. I sympathise with the people getting *d by this nerf, but I'm really getting sick and tired of the flaming. I have no real idea who Hydra is, or Pandemic Legion.. wouldn't have the foggiest which ar$e-backwards regions of Eve you call home. I know of BOB, Goons, Razor, IAC and a few other names - the latter few because friends flew with them, the former few because they've ganked me. The rest of you don't register on my radar except as examples of alliances not to join because of the behaviour and attitude of members. Immature smacktards. Provide useful* feedback or be quiet, you're decreasing the S/N ratio drastically. (NB: this isn't a universal thing - I've seen some very good, considered posts from some PL and Hydra people. You just all need to muzzle your rabid hounds a little).
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:58:00 - [764] Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 29/07/2008 20:04:27 Originally by: Exlegion Station huggers are as good as docked targets.For a smart target the outcome will be one: Dock So your saying yes ppl at gates and stations can choose to fight or not at will under the currant game mechanics. Originally by: Exlegion Away from stations and POS?. I mean in belts and gates. Fights in belts are almost exclusively solo ganks against a ratter and even if its a big gang vs gang fight a smart pilot should be aligned to a warpable object and be watching the ranges of hostile ships. Cloakers can cloak and uncloak at will with only a small delay unless locked and then they can warp off and cloak if they need to. Take offense if you like but the truth is that every time somebody like you posts it just reinforces the fact that you have no idea how to: 1. Fly any ship in combat effectively let alone a range of different ships (yes some are able to do different things you know) 2. That this nerf has nothing to do with overpowered ships but under skilled/trained pilots who are either unwilling or unable to learn proper skills and piloting abilities. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
teji	Posted - 2008.07.29 19:59:00 - [765] Originally by: Rathion Teji, you really fail at this, Do you know Why you don't see ANY nano' BC's right now, BECAUSE BATTLE CRUISERS ARE TO FAT AND SLOW TO NANO, this has not changed, HAC's are fast enough to do this, Battlecruisers are not. Sorry had to edit taken out of context thats not quite true, right now on SiSi HAC's are still fast enough to speed tank but only inside web range Battlecruisers are not. Go try it. I never said to nano out a battlecruiser. After all as you stated they are too fat to nano. After these changes goes through you won't see nano HACs either as they will be too fat to nano as well. If you don't nano a close range hac generally you are better off in a BC hull. Patch intended to make more ships viable breaks one ship type and the game keeps right on going. Just a minor speed bump in relegating HACs to AF status.
Korinn The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:07:00 - [766] Originally by: Exlegion You know, I see alot of immaturity among Pandemic Legion. I hardly like to generalize but people like you make it extremely hard not to. If I can offer you some advice it would be to grow up and stop it with the ***-waving. It really doesn't make you a better man in real life. Take my word for it. I really hope CCP is taking notice on who's contributing the most to the signal-to-noise ratio. The few players that have brought good points from both sides is drowned among the sea of immaturity and egotistical comments in this thread. This is because a lot of people seem to be going at PL as being one of the big nano* alliances in the game when it's just simply not true. I can think of 1 alliance gang I've been on in the last 3 months where we were specifically told to fit close range nano. OSHIT, yes, tend to fly nano in small (corp-only, generally) gangs but they're unlikely to be more than 4 or 5 people at which point, yes, nano is really one of the very few options available to such a small roaming gang if you don't want it to end in all of your deaths after 2 jumps. People see a fleet of HACS on a killboard battle report and instantly assume (this is much of the problem with people whinging about nanos btw, they see hacs and assume they're fitted for speed) they're all speed fitted, which a LOT of the time when it comes to PL is simply not true. We run just as many battleship, capital and other ops as we do hac gangs and the fact that people consistently attack the fact we use hacs in gangs and are terrible abusers and exploiters of pvp mechanics is probably what makes a lot of us angry at people who won't listen to the points we bring up just because we're in Polycarbon Legion (of nano*** whiners). That and sophisticatedlimabean is just a terrible forum warrior and should be set read only
sophisticatedlimabean Gallente Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:10:00 - [767] Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 29/07/2008 20:11:10 Originally by: Korinn That and sophisticatedlimabean is just a terrible forum warrior and should be set read only Im a god among forum whres and you want me in the worst way and you know it. PS: Your right about not all being nano **s as my last 500 or so kills were in a non nano'd caldari ship. My views may reflect those of my corp/alliance, but if you wanna know for sure ask em for gods sake.
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:15:00 - [768] Originally by: teji Originally by: Rathion Teji, you really fail at this, Do you know Why you don't see ANY nano' BC's right now, BECAUSE BATTLE CRUISERS ARE TO FAT AND SLOW TO NANO, this has not changed, HAC's are fast enough to do this, Battlecruisers are not. Sorry had to edit taken out of context thats not quite true, right now on SiSi HAC's are still fast enough to speed tank but only inside web range Battlecruisers are not. Go try it. I never said to nano out a battlecruiser. After all as you stated they are too fat to nano. After these changes goes through you won't see nano HACs either as they will be too fat to nano as well. If you don't nano a close range hac generally you are better off in a BC hull. Patch intended to make more ships viable breaks one ship type and the game keeps right on going. Just a minor speed bump in relegating HACs to AF status. Teji, Thats the point, You can currently On SiSi, TANK FIT your Hac, and still AB Speed tank inside web range against battleships, the Battlecruisers are however to fat to do this, thats the advantage of a HAC vs BC.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:22:00 - [769] Originally by: Rathion Originally by: teji Originally by: Rathion Teji, you really fail at this, Do you know Why you don't see ANY nano' BC's right now, BECAUSE BATTLE CRUISERS ARE TO FAT AND SLOW TO NANO, this has not changed, HAC's are fast enough to do this, Battlecruisers are not. Sorry had to edit taken out of context thats not quite true, right now on SiSi HAC's are still fast enough to speed tank but only inside web range Battlecruisers are not. Go try it. I never said to nano out a battlecruiser. After all as you stated they are too fat to nano. After these changes goes through you won't see nano HACs either as they will be too fat to nano as well. If you don't nano a close range hac generally you are better off in a BC hull. Patch intended to make more ships viable breaks one ship type and the game keeps right on going. Just a minor speed bump in relegating HACs to AF status. Teji, Thats the point, You can currently On SiSi, TANK FIT your Hac, and still AB Speed tank inside web range against battleships, the Battlecruisers are however to fat to do this, thats the advantage of a HAC vs BC. You base your assumption on a BS sitting there alone. What happens if there is not 1 BS but 5, and they have 10 interceptors as support? Then your HAC is just as dead as a BC, but the BC is cheaper and stronger. This is not about ganking a lone BS. This is about gang warfare. And in gang warfare, webbed = dead.
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:23:00 - [770] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 29/07/2008 20:25:01 Originally by: Rathion Originally by: teji Originally by: Rathion Teji, you really fail at this, Do you know Why you don't see ANY nano' BC's right now, BECAUSE BATTLE CRUISERS ARE TO FAT AND SLOW TO NANO, this has not changed, HAC's are fast enough to do this, Battlecruisers are not. Sorry had to edit taken out of context thats not quite true, right now on SiSi HAC's are still fast enough to speed tank but only inside web range Battlecruisers are not. Go try it. I never said to nano out a battlecruiser. After all as you stated they are too fat to nano. After these changes goes through you won't see nano HACs either as they will be too fat to nano as well. If you don't nano a close range hac generally you are better off in a BC hull. Patch intended to make more ships viable breaks one ship type and the game keeps right on going. Just a minor speed bump in relegating HACs to AF status. Teji, Thats the point, You can currently On SiSi, TANK FIT your Hac, and still AB Speed tank inside web range against battleships, the Battlecruisers are however to fat to do this, thats the advantage of a HAC vs BC. Great now all we need is for somebody to tell all the 0.0 alliances to undock 1 BS at a time for our HAC's to fight 1 v 1 and it will be like this stupid nerf never happened. PVPERs who fly nano like fighting equal numbers or outnumbered against other gangs thats what this nerf is killing ffs who cares about a 1v1 battle or any of that crap cos it hardly ever happens.

teji	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:26:00 - [771] I was going to respond to your dumb comment but I see smarter people already did.
Dzajic Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:26:00 - [772] You can do that (speed tank with ab under web) only against gun using ships. Missiles eat all.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:27:00 - [773] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 29/07/2008 20:35:46 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 29/07/2008 20:33:20 Originally by: Rathion Teji, Thats the point, You can currently On SiSi, TANK FIT your Hac, and still AB Speed tank inside web range against battleships, the Battlecruisers are however to fat to do this, thats the advantage of a HAC vs BC. Thats the point, on SiSi you can tank a HAC and go up close, on TQ nobody in his right mind will do that, you use a t1 cruiser even if the HAC would do it better. I can afford a snake set on SiSi and still speedtank (very ineffectively), not on TQ. That is the issue with HACs, SiSi != TQ, if you dont understand why check the prices on market. Edit: this might be what devs are missing too with this nerf, its actually pretty different if you have to pay the toys you're using. I also think snakes are overpowered, still how long do you think you'll have to run missions or rat to get a set on TQ? Would you think about it twice before engaging in a fight with your billion-isk setup on SiSi, would you on TQ? How many carriers you find station hugging on SiSi, how many on TQ?
Toon33 The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:37:00 - [774] I feel this needs to go into this topic Originally by: Arcane Carnage Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:11:17 Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:09:40 SRS POST ok me and a corp m8, Goldsnake, have been testing now for what seems like more than long enough on the new sisi build. We tried alot of 1v1 setups and some gang ones with the help of lots of friends and randoms (props to you all). However the most game breaking comparison we could find was as follows. Arcane Carnage - Vagabond Goldsnake - Rifter (Tarnag - Claymore) Vaga - High grade snake set - 4 bil shaquils speed enhancer - 800 mil Deadspace mwd - 500 mil T1 polycarbons - 75 mil faction other fittings 350 mil (2 gyro 1 nano od + point) Rifter - no implants full t1 fitting (t2 guns) - 1.2mil (I will not be telling you the setup incase this game ruining patch actually goes through) Claymore - max skilled running 3 x gangmods + mindlink vaga topspeed - 4.9km/s rifter topspeed - somthing less claymore - it could have been a station (assume max spec skills all involved pilots) ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die. 2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga...
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:41:00 - [775] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Rathion Originally by: teji Originally by: Rathion Teji, you really fail at this, Do you know Why you don't see ANY nano' BC's right now, BECAUSE BATTLE CRUISERS ARE TO FAT AND SLOW TO NANO, this has not changed, HAC's are fast enough to do this, Battlecruisers are not. Sorry had to edit taken out of context thats not quite true, right now on SiSi HAC's are still fast enough to speed tank but only inside web range Battlecruisers are not. Go try it. I never said to nano out a battlecruiser. After all as you stated they are too fat to nano. After these changes goes through you won't see nano HACs either as they will be too fat to nano as well. If you don't nano a close range hac generally you are better off in a BC hull. Patch intended to make more ships viable breaks one ship type and the game keeps right on going. Just a minor speed bump in relegating HACs to AF status. Teji, Thats the point, You can currently On SiSi, TANK FIT your Hac, and still AB Speed tank inside web range against battleships, the Battlecruisers are however to fat to do this, thats the advantage of a HAC vs BC. You base your assumption on a BS sitting there alone. What happens if there is not 1 BS but 5, and they have 10 interceptors as support? Then your HAC is just as dead as a BC, but the BC is cheaper and stronger. This is not about ganking a lone BS. This is about gang warfare. And in gang warfare, webbed = dead. Ok So the ship is FAIL because it cannot SINGLE handedly kill 1 of the enemy ships when facing a entire well balanced group.... Right If you want a ship that can do that why not just request a IWIN button....
Andnowthenews Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:45:00 - [776] Edited by: Andnowthenews on 29/07/2008 20:45:09 Originally by: Rathion Ok So the ship is FAIL because it cannot SINGLE handedly kill 1 of the enemy ships when facing a entire well balanced group.... Right If you want a ship that can do that why not just request a IWIN button.... The ship's (HAC'S) and this nerf are fail because it is reducing gang combat to a stationary slug fest between BC's (proly drakes tbh).
idrinkyourmilkshake	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:46:00 - [777] Originally by: Toon33 I feel this needs to go into this topic Originally by: Arcane Carnage Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:11:17 Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 02:09:40 SRS POST ok me and a corp m8, Goldsnake, have been testing now for what seems like more than long enough on the new sisi build. We tried alot of 1v1 setups and some gang ones with the help of lots of friends and randoms (props to you all). However the most game breaking comparison we could find was as follows. Arcane Carnage - Vagabond Goldsnake - Rifter (Tarnag - Claymore) Vaga - High grade snake set - 4 bil shaquils speed enhancer - 800 mil Deadspace mwd - 500 mil T1 polycarbons - 75 mil faction other fittings 350 mil (2 gyro 1 nano od + point) Rifter - no implants full t1 fitting (t2 guns) - 1.2mil (I will not be telling you the setup incase this game ruining patch actually goes through) Claymore - max skilled running 3 x gangmods + mindlink vaga topspeed - 4.9km/s rifter topspeed - somthing less claymore - it could have been a station (assume max spec skills all involved pilots) ok rifter started off popping drones, then managed to get an overloaded web on during slow 14k orbit (so i could actually hit it with guns) followed by a overloaded scram. It then proceeded for the next 12 minutes to orbit me while i couldnt actually hit it with anything but a hml which was hitting for around 30 damage and being easily passive tanked unable to mwd or well do anything except watch myself die. 2 mil rifter > 6 bil vaga... Should have fit a med neut instead of the HML, for sure.
Arcane Carnage The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:48:00 - [778] Edited by: Arcane Carnage on 29/07/2008 20:52:30 Recieved lots of complains in local this morning as we dominated ffa1 with 4 249km snipers 2 falcons a lachesis and an army of logistics (not that they were needed) nothing could get within 80km of us that was nano'd as it would generally be insta popped by one or other of the apocs. lachesis damped anything that was considering locking the logistic circle jerk (i.e id did nothing) and the falcons uncloaked every now and then to break ***gots who brough gangs and logistics to an ffa... we lost 1 falcon to an apoc sniper (coz he was a noob) in 2 hours of ffa.. what has now been created ccp is a VERY VERY high sp (and alt count) invulnerability to the rest of eve outside of being titan doomsday'd. Hell throw in a heavily tanked up hictor and this would be your standard space defending gatecamp template or burn eden 2.0 if you will. ps: i lost 4 vagas, 3 jaguars, 2 crows, 1 stiletto, 2 wolfs, 4 sabres, a sleipnir, a crusader, a curse an ishtar and 2 scimitars trying to nano things... just dont is my advice to any new players give up now and train amarr/caldari. - Illuminati - Pathetic Legion Ures truly kickin' ass Carn
Rathion	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:50:00 - [779] Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 29/07/2008 20:45:09 Originally by: Rathion Ok So the ship is FAIL because it cannot SINGLE handedly kill 1 of the enemy ships when facing a entire well balanced group.... Right If you want a ship that can do that why not just request a IWIN button.... The ship's (HAC'S) and this nerf are fail because it is reducing gang combat to a stationary slug fest between BC's (proly drakes tbh). And those ever so fast Battlecruiser are going to do so well trying to tackle a battleship and holding it there. Seriously Combat has roles again not a do everything Tech 2 Cruiser Hull. And you want a cheaper ship for heavy tackling the Assault Frigs are viable as a gang heavy tackler as well.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.07.29 20:53:00 - [780] Originally by: Rathion Originally by: Malachon Draco You base your assumption on a BS sitting there alone. What happens if there is not 1 BS but 5, and they have 10 interceptors as support? Then your HAC is just as dead as a BC, but the BC is cheaper and stronger. This is not about ganking a lone BS. This is about gang warfare. And in gang warfare, webbed = dead. Ok So the ship is FAIL because it cannot SINGLE handedly kill 1 of the enemy ships when facing a entire well balanced group.... Right If you want a ship that can do that why not just request a IWIN button.... I'll pretend that you really didn't understand me. No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is this. Lets say we have 2 gangs. One gang consists of 5 battleships and 10 assorted support. This is the standard defence gang (for arguments sake). Then we have the HAC gang. Currently, lets say we are talking about 10 sniper HACs with a nanofit to make range. This HAC gang can jump into the defence gang and try to pick off support while staying out of tackler range. After the Sisi changes, you suggest that we could take tanked HACs close because they can 'go under the guns of the BS with afterburners'. However, what would happen is that the 10 assorted support of the defence gang would web and scramble the HACs so that the BS can shoot them to pieces. Not a good proposition where each HAC costs 150-200m and cannot be insured, while the BS cost 100-120m and can be effectively insured. In such a scenario, only an idiot would bring 10 tanked HACs. Someone who still wanted a fight could conceivably bring 10 Battlecruisers. They are much cheaper than HACs, can be tanked more effectively, can provide more firepower. And under the circumstances where you can't nano anymore, they are better because they are not instapopped when tackled by the enemy support. Or at least less 'instapopped'. That is why removing the nano ability from HACs makes them obsolete. Without nano-ability, there is a better, cheaper alternative, at least in the practical circumstances in which you will be able to use the ship on TQ. Even if there is a theoretical possibility for a HAC to go under the guns of a BS, in practice that will be a very rare occurence.

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