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Author	Topic
Delos Korelian	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:30:00 - [121] Originally by: Malachon Draco If you do that, you will get rid of the really insane speeds, but keep nanoing viable as a tactic. If you go through with this I foresee a very ****ed off group of players, many of whom will probably quit the game. Aside from blobbing the shit out of each other, and nanoing there is not much to do in terms of PvP in 0.0. You really don't want to add more to the blobs in 0.0, do you? Because it will be either that or quit the game altogether. With the change in implants, and considering how difficult and time consuming it was for me to get the full and perfect speed set? I am rally upset now. There are some things this nerf will do, that I don't know, I am speechless... This is too much, this changing EVE not changing speed. CCP will need to "fix" missiles again. CCP will need to "fix" HACs again. CCP will need to "fix" BLOBS again. CCP will need to "fix" Battleships again. This change is too drastic and too big, it will fubar the balance more than it will benefit it.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:30:00 - [122] ill try to be polite and on topic even though if i had any of u devs in front of me right now i would have said some less then polite things. issue 1: you didnt just nerf nanos, you sent it back to the stone age. please explain to me how your supposed to do guerilla warfare like you said you still wanted in the game. even when spending 4bill the vaga is now slower then with a current t1 fit on tranq. issue 2:Why the nerf of speed on all ships? I can understand that nano hac's in its current form is overpowerd, but why the heck nerf speeds on already slow ships like the megathron and tempest?(hopefully you do understand that the mwd nerf affects other ships then nanos right?????) issue 3: web nerf, how the bloody hell are battleships supposed to hit anything at all thats smaller then a bs now? I hope you realise that what you have done now is made a MAJOR buff to alliances that likes to blob, use cap ships(yeah yeah, i know wich alliance im in) or snipe at gates. Congrats on ruining everything fun in the game with a single stupid idea. if you felt nanos was so bloody bad you could have just removed them from the game or taken away speed rigs, but no, u gotta go out and nerf every damn ship there is.
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:30:00 - [123] Originally by: Exlegion It isn't about missiles "instaowning". That's the other extreme from where they are now. It's about missiles hitting nanos for decent damage. Missiles compared to guns are subpar and this change addresses the issue. Precision heavies may be worth something on PVP now. Missiles are only 'subpar' for PvP in the broadest sense, if you expect to use them as a 100% analog of guns. THEY ARE NOT. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF EVE: WEAPON SYSTEMS HAVE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE. Things do not act the same with different names. Using current mechanics, a cerberus can be fit for very specific anti-nano duty and do an excellent job. Torpravens are good ships for solo/small gang DPS. HAM Nighthawk has great DPS and ROF. HAM Drake when not fit for pure tank (think outside the PvE box, you noobs) works great. Crow. What else do you want? For non-missile ships you have the Rokh, which is the best Hybrid fleet sniper. There's the Eagle, which just recently got a fifth turret. Caldari as a whole with this is completely overpowered. ECM is the only effective Ewar. Passive shield tanking is ridiculous. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
Raquel Trotter	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:33:00 - [124] CCP, if you are serious about applying this change to speed ( I totally disagree with it), so be it, but please please have a long hard look at minmatar ships in general and the effect these changes have on them. Compare every class of minmatar ship against its counterpart from other races. I think you will find that for most they have the 3rd worst armor HPs, 2nd worst Sheild HPs, the worst sensor strengths (easiest to jam) and worst targeting range. The ONLY characteristic that they are better than any other races in is speed, and its not enough that their speed relative to other ships is now slightly higher unless you make some major changes to the speed of missiles and drones/fighters. This combined with the now useless recons, and the high training requirements of split weapons systems and dual tanks effectively trash any minnie trained characters, or the possibility that any new characters will ever train for minmatar. If you are going for such a major overhaul, then please think about some other bonus / stat increase to level the balance between the races in this new non-nano world you are making. I am sure I am not alone in having a combat character that are specialized in only Minmatar ships. It seems like if the changes are implemented the way they are currently on SISI, my only options will be to cross train caldari or suspend accounts until the game is rebalanced.
Sceelax Endemic Aggression	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:34:00 - [125] Originally by: Malachon Draco Things to change to this Sisi version: - Keep most things, including webs and all T2 modules as they currently are on TQ. - Change the Snake bonus to a bonus to agility and/or sigradius - Reduce the speedbonus of the Gisti MWDs to about 575-600%. - Reduce the effectiveness of Polycarb rigs by 30%. Are you joking? I'll assume you are - hahahahaha! From the tests I carried out earlier in this thread, LG snakes have definitely been over-nerfed in the current state SiSi is in, but the change you have offered is one that will not be received well by owners of the Snake implants (Also, there is already a sig-radius reducing implant set).
Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:38:00 - [126] This is my first forum post in months... sad it's got to be on something so negative. I'm not great PvPer. I don't log onto Sisi and test. I'm also not a fan of Nano-ships since I'd rather pop two of my non-nano Ishtars than pop one nanoed one, but even I think that the changes go too far. I started out fairly positive, read through at least 30 pages of the other thread, LOLed at the jokes and the flaming... and then I got to this thread with the testing feedback. Now I'm sad. The primary intent of the nerfing, from what I can gather was twofold : 1. Kill the insane speed junkies, and stop Machariels going 13k/sec, etc. 2. Help the physics engine out by backing off from the limits, and give missiles and drones a bit of love in catching inties. But: How in the hell you get a Vaga only going at only 2.5k/sec is beyond me. 4k/sec fair enough, but 2.5?? And if the fits are to be believed they gimp their proper tanks to do even that speed. Come on, you want the Vaga and Inties to be catchable by light drones and missiles? That means 8k/sec is the upper limit you want to be looking at... I can easily get T2 Warriors above 8k/sec with a Drone Speed rig. I'd just started training T2 Projectile and Minnie Cruiser 5 to have a punt in a Vaga. Don't really see the point now. I also think that missiles need to be looked at if you drastically change average ship speeds. My corp recently had a 1v1 T1 basic fit frigate comp, and I can tell you that there is nothing much better than a Kestrel. You can't dodge his fire for nuts, can't damp, neut or T.D him... so your only hope is ECM (Caldari make their own countermeasures, awesome!) or close to range (ie go FAST) and obliterate while dual-repping. If you can't go fast, what have you got? Caldari online Finally : I run missions. Lots of them, in my Domi. I'm a bit disturbed to see Battleship speeds apparently down on average if the posts are to be believed.. That means longer gate traverses, which is more of my life I can't get back. (Or a 'mandatory AB' fit which will gimp setups all over the place) Yayness. Slower turns due to agility nerfs means more noob losses to pirate gate camps in lowsec, belts and mission warpins - I thought it was CCPs goal to draw new players out of cozy highsec and into lowsec to take risks. Extra risk of death due to immobility != inspiring fun and challenge for noobs. How about you stacking nerf the Overdrives etc, fix Polycarbs to be worse than the related module (as they should be) and maybe have a look at stacking nerfing Slave sets (since you wanted to kill Spaceballs Speed, which is generally high ISK territory)... but leave it at that and see what the effects are?
Fish Brain Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:41:00 - [127] Originally by: Sceelax Originally by: Malachon Draco Things to change to this Sisi version: - Keep most things, including webs and all T2 modules as they currently are on TQ. - Change the Snake bonus to a bonus to agility and/or sigradius - Reduce the speedbonus of the Gisti MWDs to about 575-600%. - Reduce the effectiveness of Polycarb rigs by 30%. Are you joking? I'll assume you are - hahahahaha! From the tests I carried out earlier in this thread, LG snakes have definitely been over-nerfed in the current state SiSi is in, but the change you have offered is one that will not be received well by owners of the Snake implants (Also, there is already a sig-radius reducing implant set). there is also an agility implant set
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:41:00 - [128] Well tried it out for a while and this is my findings. - My Taranis speed is not significantly enough reduced to worry about it. I will however have to go with Rail fittings for it from now on, which makes it the spawn of satan, due to the new scrambler mode. R.I.P. Blaster Ranis - My Nano Ishtar has had it's speed significantly reduced to the extent that a nano fit without a more significant investment that I am willing to make into one ship is impractical on it now. I was never a big fan of nanos anyway so not a big problem for me at least ;) - Web changes are really quite annoying in some ways. For instance the Officer Webs are going to be a huge problem for supercap defense imo. - Gatecamps have been reinforced a bit but not as much as I had at first feared. It is however still too far down the defensive advantage road for my liking. Attacking with or without nanos is going to be even more towards who can bring the biggest blob. Mostly this is down to the fact that the reduced incoming speed of the attacking fleet will make it more dangerous to jump in. If Black Ops penetration of Cyno Jammers were introduced at the same time this would mitigate it to an extent. - Blasterships aren't a write off but they are no longer a solo option imo with only 1 exception (which I am going to keep to myself ;P) Overall not as bad as it was predicted but still some problems in the direction of warfare balance. More testing later. ---
Ikoras Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:41:00 - [129] Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 28/07/2008 18:27:07 It isn't about missiles "instaowning". That's the other extreme from where they are now. It's about missiles hitting nanos for decent damage. Missiles compared to guns are subpar and this change addresses the issue. Precision heavies may be worth something on PVP now. Nano should be a different flavor tank, not invulnerable to missiles. I'm sure this has been said before and I'm sure after I say it it will be said again. W/o support ya, caldari isn't the greatest. Caldari is one of the strongest if not the strongest fleet race. So when your rapiers and other battleships tackle these "un hittable " nano ships that I hear all you carebears crying about. You sit there and deal insanely amounts of dmg. not to mention caldari's ecm abilities make or break a fight.
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:45:00 - [130] Originally by: Ikoras Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 28/07/2008 18:27:07 It isn't about missiles "instaowning". That's the other extreme from where they are now. It's about missiles hitting nanos for decent damage. Missiles compared to guns are subpar and this change addresses the issue. Precision heavies may be worth something on PVP now. Nano should be a different flavor tank, not invulnerable to missiles. I'm sure this has been said before and I'm sure after I say it it will be said again. W/o support ya, caldari isn't the greatest. Caldari is one of the strongest if not the strongest fleet race. So when your rapiers and other battleships tackle these "un hittable " nano ships that I hear all you carebears crying about. You sit there and deal insanely amounts of dmg. not to mention caldari's ecm abilities make or break a fight. Take a Vagabond. Put 15 Drakes on a gate, + a Rapier cloaked. Let him think he's fine to screw around. Begin firing missiles at the Vagabond. Decloak the Rapier, web the Vagabond. Marvel as 250 Heavy missiles come slamming into him in 2 seconds, where all hybird/projectile charges and laser bursts fired at him before would've not done a thing. Yeah, missiles are totally useless, how dare we suggest they might have a reason to exist. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.

Ikoras Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:49:00 - [131] Originally by: Haakelen Originally by: Ikoras Originally by: Exlegion Edited by: Exlegion on 28/07/2008 18:27:07 It isn't about missiles "instaowning". That's the other extreme from where they are now. It's about missiles hitting nanos for decent damage. Missiles compared to guns are subpar and this change addresses the issue. Precision heavies may be worth something on PVP now. Nano should be a different flavor tank, not invulnerable to missiles. I'm sure this has been said before and I'm sure after I say it it will be said again. W/o support ya, caldari isn't the greatest. Caldari is one of the strongest if not the strongest fleet race. So when your rapiers and other battleships tackle these "un hittable " nano ships that I hear all you carebears crying about. You sit there and deal insanely amounts of dmg. not to mention caldari's ecm abilities make or break a fight. Take a Vagabond. Put 15 Drakes on a gate, + a Rapier cloaked. Let him think he's fine to screw around. Begin firing missiles at the Vagabond. Decloak the Rapier, web the Vagabond. Marvel as 250 Heavy missiles come slamming into him in 2 seconds, where all hybird/projectile charges and laser bursts fired at him before would've not done a thing. Yeah, missiles are totally useless, how dare we suggest they might have a reason to exist. exactly, it's all about knowing your role. and caldari is support, just like most other ships in other races.
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:51:00 - [132] Caldari have more effective ships for PvP than some other races. The problem is people don't want to take the time to skill up in specific areas or learn how to fit things unconventionally. Think before you die. You have a brain and the ability to think laterally for a reason. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
hEtt	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:53:00 - [133] I personally think that, this is a good change to balance the game, but I even think that changing microwarpdrives is not the greatest idea you could have, many ships needs it to be effective and they are not necessarly nanos.
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:53:00 - [134] Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 28/07/2008 18:54:44 Lets take a normal everyday ratter-Drake, t1 ammo with T2 weapons. We all know what this is, 7 Heavy launchers, 2 BCU II's Lets take T1 ammo for a spin. A normal heavy missile goes 5625m/s, has an explosion radii of 93.75m, 1500m falloff, with a explosion velocity of 1125. Lvl5 skills throw this behemoth of ordinance as far as 84.4km. Lets say the Drake isnt using his kinetic damage bonus because he isnt ratting in kin-vulnerable ratspace. Unbonused T1 heavies with lvl5 skills do 234.1138 on this Drake Now, lets take, for example, a pre-nano-nerf Crusader, goes 6131m/s with a 1MN MWD II, 2 OD II's. Sig radii of 144m3. Lvl5 skills, nothing else. just for the sake of arguement, lets bump down the speed to a rounded-off 5000m/s, quite under the supposed percentages of speed decrease from 25-50%, but just for the sake of arguement lets leave them at that rounded-off number. that means the Crusader can no longer run away from cruiser-level ordinance like it used to, and will get hit. Lets do the calculations, using the handy-dandy Missile Guide. Now, lets say the heavy missile's explosion radius is 100m, to keep things simple. 100m explo-radii vs 144m sig radii = no damage reduction. But wait, we forgot the speed the Crusader is going at, vs the explosion velocity of the heavy missile. 5000m/s ship speed vs 1000m/s explosion velocity. 1000m/s = 20% of 5000m/s, so if I'm not mistaken thats 80% damage reduction. so, lets take the damage output of that single missile (rounded to 235), remove 80% from it, and we end up with 47 damage, multiply by 7 because of the 7 launchers, we end up with 329 damage per salvo. my current Crusader EHP total (prenanonerf) totals at just 2300 ehp, rounded off for simplicity. Not counting drones or any other sources of damage, that means a Crusader will die from a T1-ammo Drake in 7 salvos. With lvl5 skills, thats 7.144 (7.15 for simplicity) seconds between salvoes. 46 DPS. Issues: - Interceptors are going slower than the ballpark figure I gave, 5000m/s. They cant even avoid being hit by tech 1 cruiser-level ordinance. Trying to avoid the sig penalty due to MWD use just opened them up to being hit by tech 1 battleship-level ordinance (torp/cruise) if they try to use an AB instead. - Trying to make the Crusader I gave some sort of buffer tank, or a repper basically ruined either agility, or cap stability to the point that its usefulness = 0. -Current T2 heavy precision missiles reach 7km/s, well within reaching normally-fitted interceptors. All it needs is the proper explosion velocity to be effective. -
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:54:00 - [135] Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 28/07/2008 18:57:40 Observations and Comments: -The current nano-nerf is too broad, too heavy-handed, and too gamebreaking to even comprehend. I'm not even going to touch the 50% webbers and how they'll affect tracking at "knife-fight" ranges normally associated with blasterboats. -There are many multiple counters to current-day nanoshipping (heavy neuts, ranged sniping, etc). Whilst indeed, going 8km+/s is ludicrous, it can easily be dumbed down if proper stacking penalties are applied to current non-stacking-penaltied speed-modifiers like polycarbon rigs, HG snakes, Rogue hardwires, etc. -The popular face of "guerrilla warfare" is nano, and oftentimes, the fast-paced feel of nanoshipping is what attracts newer pilots into PvP. Take this away, and many pilots (very well) may leave, having lost the reason they play the game. -A very viable counter to nano's is sitting right in front of you: Assault Frigates. Currently, they have no useful role in PvP, nano or not, because of their mass, slow speed and lack of slots at times (Retribution, example). Many people have suggested giving the AF a role involving the new anti-MWD scrambler with web immunity. Sort of a "heavy tackler" which, if boosted right, could become a more attractive "anti-nano" ship. Give them just enough speed to catch a determined nanoship (with the stacking penalties mentioned before so they dont become ludicrous) and take him off his MWD. -
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:56:00 - [136] Originally by: Haakelen Take a Vagabond. Put 15 Drakes on a gate, + a Rapier cloaked. Let him think he's fine to screw around. Begin firing missiles at the Vagabond. Decloak the Rapier, web the Vagabond. Marvel as 250 Heavy missiles come slamming into him in 2 seconds, where all hybird/projectile charges and laser bursts fired at him before would've not done a thing. Yeah, missiles are totally useless, how dare we suggest they might have a reason to exist. All this for a nano vaga? You don't see a problem with that? One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr
Ikoras Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:57:00 - [137] It's just funny how all these people are complaining about speed being oped. Now I'll agree 15k+k on a Hac or bigger is over powered. But nerfing it this much is a joke. the People that thought Amarr was bad for a long time need to look at minmatar now;they will see a joke of a race.
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:57:00 - [138] Jesus tapdancing christ. You seriously can't read, that's what I'm getting out of this. You do not need FIFTEEEN DRAKES TO KILL A VAGABOND WITH A RAPIER. I was making a point that missiles slam into webbed targets, until they time out. Turret-based weapons don't. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
Amandin Adouin	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:58:00 - [139] Do you guys plan to buff Minmatar ships in any way, following these pretty heavy changes? I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the Matari ships have seen the brunt of quite a few nerfs lately, and have pretty much had every strength of theirs taken away. Speed was the last thing Matari ships had going for them. Many people much more knowledgeable than I have spent countless hours discussing Matari ship issues in this thread: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=801402
Big Al Stoat's Ultimate Carebear Adventure	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:58:00 - [140] Wasted SP is awesome SP. I never really liked nanos (to fly) although I had the sp to do so. Of course I also have the sp to fly pretty much everything else (lolnerfproof baby). Things that are now mildly useless: Recon 5, have 3 chars with it but only 1 has gallente cruiser 5, 2 have caldari cruiser 5 + maxed ecm so it's not a total loss (til the next nerf) Minmatar cruiser 5, 3 chars with it Claymore + all required skills for maxing skirmish gang boners (cs 5, skirmish,link spec 5, warfare link 5, cyber 5) - will still be good sitting at a safespot I suppose, but it'll just die horribly elsewhere. Around 15m combined in navigation, athough does include some jump skills, but I don't fly capitals! Gallente bs 5 on 3 chars Sad On the flip side, things that are now mildly (or even more) awesome: 1 char with 7.5m in missiles/caldari bs 5 that hit every ship in the game without snakes + claymore, don't even need precisions. 3 chars with amarr bs 5, pulse spec 4 (next nerf should move these up to the first section) 2 chars with T2 sentries And the best thing of all: no characters with minmatar bs 5.

Vengal Seyhan Sten Industries	Posted - 2008.07.28 18:59:00 - [141] Originally by: mynnna Originally by: ChoppinBrocolli My feedback: the best balancing is done by taking babysteps. And this patch is changing way too much at once making it impossible to fully oversee the consequences. You will break more than you will fix. This. This this this. There's a reason why, in science, you change one thing at a time, and the reason applies here, too. If it's ridiculous speeds you're worried about, start with snake implants. If stuff is still too fast for your taste (AFTER remembering that snakes are owned by a tiny percentage of the population and NOT ever nanohac pilot runs around with them!), address polycarbon engine housings. After all, most other rigs are inferior to their module counterparts, Polys should be too. If that's still not enough to do your stated goal of reducing ludicrous speeds, work from there. This changing everything at once stuff though? Bad idea, bad plan, not going to work. You're just going to wind up with a bunch of unhappy players.
Ikoras Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:03:00 - [142] Edited by: Ikoras on 28/07/2008 19:04:51 and to help haak out here, if there was one drake and 1 vaga. would either one be able to kill the other. probably not. drake fully fitted is about what 70mil max? and has insurance. a fully fitted vaga with no insurance costs about 280mil and requires a lot more sp than a drake. do the math. 1 rapier 1 drake vs vaga. ya vaga will die if he doesn't get out. and for the carebears. no mater what you guys want to think, scissor does not beat rock.
Haakelen Gallente Genesis Rising	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:07:00 - [143] Hell, you want to counter a Vaga with only Caldari ships, Warhead Flare Catalyst rig a Cerberus with precision lights. You will barbecue nanos, current mechanics. Are you smart, and don't buy into the 'one ship = one ship to counter' argument? Awesome. Falcon + Crow + DPS boat, doesn't matter which one. Drake, Cerb, Raven, etc. Amarr have neuts and Pulse (Seriously look at the tracking sometime). Gallente have drones and neuts. Caldari have ECM and missiles (when used intelligently). Minmatar have speed. There's only 'No racial counter' if you're intentionally ignoring the facts. My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks.
R3DSKULL Amarr CCCP INC	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:09:00 - [144] Originally by: Damion Zyne I think from reading the first pages here it should be clear that these changes effect far too many parts of EVE. Smaller steps might be the way to go This guy is the one with the correct view on this. I agree a change needs to happen. But again not so much so fast. Way to much Nerf nerf nerf. So far we have seen jammers nerfed, damps nerfed, now nanos and webs nerfed, explosive and em nerf, titans have been nerfed, maybe its good to put on test server but i think CCP needs to start testing stuff for a little longer. Seems thats the real issue is its not tested enough.
Matrixcvd Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:10:00 - [145] Originally by: Big Al Wasted SP is awesome SP. I never really liked nanos (to fly) although I had the sp to do so. Of course I also have the sp to fly pretty much everything else (lolnerfproof baby). Things that are now mildly useless: Recon 5, have 3 chars with it but only 1 has gallente cruiser 5, 2 have caldari cruiser 5 + maxed ecm so it's not a total loss (til the next nerf) Minmatar cruiser 5, 3 chars with it Claymore + all required skills for maxing skirmish gang boners (cs 5, skirmish,link spec 5, warfare link 5, cyber 5) - will still be good sitting at a safespot I suppose, but it'll just die horribly elsewhere. Around 15m combined in navigation, athough does include some jump skills, but I don't fly capitals! Gallente bs 5 on 3 chars Sad On the flip side, things that are now mildly (or even more) awesome: 1 char with 7.5m in missiles/caldari bs 5 that hit every ship in the game without snakes + claymore, don't even need precisions. 3 chars with amarr bs 5, pulse spec 4 (next nerf should move these up to the first section) 2 chars with T2 sentries And the best thing of all: no characters with minmatar bs 5. quoted for the truth, and an awesome sig by the way!
Parduhn	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:10:00 - [146] Player ingenuity will always find and exploit game mechanics that the dev's didn't intend. So some ppl will be upset - it's always the case with any nerf of any kind - someone's pet interest will feel the pain. But it's the dev's responsibility to maintain a kind of balance whereby nothing becomes contrary to the overall stability of the game. Just accept it's not personal and it'll be someone else's turn next time.
Karando Random Goods	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:13:00 - [147] dear sir nozh, mah opinionz regurding ur disturbance also known as FAIL.
Ol' Delsai Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:14:00 - [148] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari But wait, we forgot the speed the Crusader is going at, vs the explosion velocity of the heavy missile. 5000m/s ship speed vs 1000m/s explosion velocity. 1000m/s = 20% of 5000m/s, so if I'm not mistaken thats 80% damage reduction. Actually, you're completely wrong ... sorry The formula is something like 100(1-e^(-1(ship speed-explo speed)^2/1500^2)). In your example that leads to a 99,9% dmg reduction, so your crusader is pretty safe as every vagabond in the current speed system. Note At 3000m/s this already leads to a 83% reduction (you can check this on the missile guide on this very site)
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Oyster Colors	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:15:00 - [149] Just finished my first test runs on sisi, I'll make it short, more to come the next few days I bet What I like: --> effect on AFs, the scram/webber change Only around 200m/s speed loss on my nano-jag (modified setup) without any gangboost/implant, although I'm wondering why the general speed boost doesnt have more effect. With a mwd/web/9km scram setup using shield buffer, 3x ODII and resist rigs, its now very capable of tackling and fighting inside web range, in a fight against ishtar it survived drones/neuts/web/guns long enough to put him into 15% armor, the web change really cuts it for the small ships imho, the 9km scram is a very good combo with a web. Once single-webbed, there is still enough speed left to not be instapopped and continue tackling, even double-web might not mean instant death. Believe it or not, with the change to web/scram, I'd say they are 100% viable combat ships now for their pricetag, if it were purely for AFs well done there. (Sidenote: if you ask me, these 2 things implemented would be good enough to solve the whole speed issue, given AF speeds get finetuned the nanotacklers are right thereand very effective at their job. This is not even considering the arazu. if people still refuse to use them, well too bad, but this would prolly be the best choice to avoid a myriad of changes and side-effects). What I dislike: --> effects on speedfit (minmatar) cruiser size ships in general / missiles This is mainly concerning stabber/vagabond, both ships are practically dead. In comparison to permarunning fits, they could only can use their speed to mitigate incoming dps for a limited time anyway, so the speedtank people complain about never was there in the first place, you always had to take near full-dps when you where shooting, using the mwd mainly to maintain range (they need good acceleration and agility!) or make the escape. The stabber is terrible right now, it cannot even mitigate enough damage while running full speed in a reasonable setup, it gets killed off by missiles so quick it is almost impossible to even get in disrupt range before it dies. You'd probably need polycarbs and snake implants for a t1 nanocruiser to work now The scrambler change will make it even easier prey for frigates than it is anyway, so I think thats one cruiser with a lot of problems. Well, any cruiser sized ship relying on damage mitigation as tank will not work anymore, I didnt even bother to try the bellicose in such a setup. --> interceptors Tried claw and stiletto, and they're way too slow in standard fits, a unrigged t2 fit on claw barely breaks 5km/s with all lows speedmods. Thats ~1.3km/s less than with 3 speedmods on TQ. Interceptors are not dps monsters, looking at these numbers I'd probably go with a jaguar for the tackler role, its just more overall value. Being slow enough to get damaged by missiles is too slow for a ceptor with a non-existant tank. It will probably not fit with the doctrine that missiles should hit everything in their class fine and a class below for some damage, but honestly it crosses the line where polycarbs are needed for a working inty fit.
scorp3	Posted - 2008.07.28 19:16:00 - [150] I have a few questions for the guys testing....What are the speeds of the Industrials .Hulk and the Freighters which are all ready slow and boring to fly all ready.. Since they have slowed down Battleships also and are Talking about a missile nerf what will taht do to the Caldari mission runners....Will it slow down there mission running ability making this also a nerf to Caldari mission runners.. P.S I voted against

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