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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.19 16:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't mean for this to be a rant, so please forgive me in advance. I've got roughly 8.3 million points in gunnery. Most of the basic skills are at V, and every single large hybrid skill is maxed out besides the 5th level of Large Hybrid Specialization (lol 34 days for 2%).
On top of that, i've got the 3% surgical strike implant as well as the 3% large hybrid implant. For those familiar with the 425mm Railgun II damage multipliers, mine is about 9.2x
Here is my issue: The lack of versatility.
I recently moved from Fountain space to Providence (Serpentis rats to sansha)
Now everything is fine and dandy on serpentis rats. Their two lowest are kinetic and thermal, yipee. But it is specific to that area only.
I move to Providence, i'm doing about half the dps i usually do. Hybrids either need to be given more types of "antimatter" (by that i mean max damage different damage types), or simply buffed to compensate for the lack of versatility. I always find it funny when my friend comes in a drake or tengu with 3 mil missile skills and puts out almost double what i am.
So TL;DR Recently moved to Providence (Sansha) where gallente damage sucks, probably forced to train amarr and energy weapons for the next 3 months.
My rants complete. If you have anything objective or constructive to say, it would be appreciated. |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
65
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lasers have the reverse problem, and are even more nerfed when a laser user moves to Angel space.
With hybrids, I think just having ammunition biased more heavily to kinetic or thermal than currently exists would make them almost as versatile as projectiles for actual damage delivered on target. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1082
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder Your videos no longer exist on the link you provided. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
35
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hybrids are in a very good place as of now .. what remains are some feather-light touches to the hulls using them.
Read that as: Buff hybrids any more and you end up with a repeat of the projectile over-buff and Goddess knows we don't need another FoTY inducing balance change. |
Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Hybrids are in a very good place as of now .. what remains are some feather-light touches to the hulls using them.
Read that as: Buff hybrids any more and you end up with a repeat of the projectile over-buff and Goddess knows we don't need another FoTY inducing balance change.
IMO projectiles were fine before the buff as I used them on my old character that I sold. I did well with projectiles. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1082
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Posted - 2012.03.19 17:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder Your videos no longer exist on the link you provided.
Yeah I know. I blogged about it: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/pvp-videos-on-vimeo/
I'll be putting them up somewhere else Soon(tm).
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
191
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Posted - 2012.03.19 18:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
from what i heard tallest was working on before he went on vacation was balancing tech I ammo... much like they did for projectiles...
so i would expect once he comes back from paternatiy leave to get right back on the balance horse... |
Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:350mm Railgun Sentry Domi is your friend.
-Liang
Ed: BTW, if you think that Rails vs Sansha is bad, you should try Lasers vs Guristas.... /shudder
Oh i don't doubt it, but doesn't that shed light on a bigger problem? Why is it missiles can just go and own wherever they go? Are there any real upsides to hybrids/lasers vs missiles?
And yes i could go Domi and get EM sentry drones and all EM drones and probably make it better for myself, but why should i be forced into that when it's such a simple balance change?
Make ammo for each damage type in the "antimatter" area and problem solved. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
188
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Are there any real upsides to hybrids/lasers vs missiles?
-Being able to dumpster frigs in-bound easily thus a lot less reliance on drones. -Not having to worry about rigging for your turrets to hit anything smaller than a battleship for full damage. -Faster/Instant reloading times. -Wrecking shots. -Instant damage application, aka no volley counting. -Superior damage compared to cruise missiles, Superior everything but eft dps compared to torps. Superior damage compared to heavy missiles.
There's a reason the tengu stands alone as the last remaining pve missile ship and that's because it combines hml projection on a platform with amazing resists, not a terribly large sig, with great speed, and flexibility to operate in dangerous space.
Outside of that perfect storm of attributes most missile ships are currently a waste of time compared to their turret counterparts, yes even the hybrid turrets. Check some of the recent threads discussing the golem/cnr for more details. |
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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
164
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ive been testing them myself.
EM weak rats are the only rats you will have issues with with hybrids. Sansha, Blood, Amarr npcs. But everything else including Angels you will have little issues with. But that its just a small section of rats that Hybrids suck against now Im ok with that.
I honestly think Lasers are generally the most limited weapons system now for PVE.
If you have basic drone skills, 350 rail domi as has already been suggested with heavy's and sentry's will give you selectable damage to kill EM weak rats. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
14
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Oh i don't doubt it, but doesn't that shed light on a bigger problem? Why is it missiles can just go and own wherever they go? Are there any real upsides to hybrids/lasers vs missiles?
No sir. There is no problem. Since I trained my gunnery skills up to decent IV level I stopped feeling intimidated by missile using friends. And it was waaaay before Crucible.
So while I can't really comment on missiles, I suck too much there to make honest comparison, I can tell you why hybrids are okay. Large guns easily project at least 700 dps at 36 km with 30 falloff. Which is more than enough for most missions. Where it's not enough, with scripted tracking computers you can make it up to 50, still dealing same damage, or with spikes you hit as far as you can possibly lock for the price of having about 60% of that dps. Damage being kin/therm only? What a shame! Have you looked up rats database? Most regular mission folks have resists 50% where hard, 40% where soft. Go figure. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1086
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Azemar wrote: And yes i could go Domi and get EM sentry drones and all EM drones and probably make it better for myself, but why should i be forced into that when it's such a simple balance change?
Perhaps it might because its not that simple of a balance change. Damage type selection is the exception rather than the rule, and I'd call that a good thing.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Azemar wrote: And yes i could go Domi and get EM sentry drones and all EM drones and probably make it better for myself, but why should i be forced into that when it's such a simple balance change?
Perhaps it might because its not that simple of a balance change. Damage type selection is the exception rather than the rule, and I'd call that a good thing. -Liang
Interesting. Could you explain further? |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1086
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
I thought it was fairly self explanatory: damage type selection isn't a guarantee or a right. It's a bonus for using a particular weapons system (missiles for full damage type selection, projectiles for limited). If you feel you want it, train those weapons systems and take the bad with the good.
Also: variety in weapons systems is a good thing.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I thought it was fairly self explanatory: damage type selection isn't a guarantee or a right. It's a bonus for using a particular weapons system (missiles for full damage type selection, projectiles for limited). If you feel you want it, train those weapons systems and take the bad with the good.
Also: variety in weapons systems is a good thing.
-Liang
Exactly! That brings me back to my original point about turrets vs missiles. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1089
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
It... really shouldn't. I disagree with you entirely.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It... really shouldn't. I disagree with you entirely.
-Liang
Could you explain why you take that stance? Missiles have the advantage of being any type they wish. It would appear to be a significant advantage over turrets. I understand that turrets have the ability to do things like one shot frigs, no travel time, etc but it seems the choice of damage type would vastly outweigh those factors. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1089
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
It doesn't. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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RougeOperator
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
164
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:It... really shouldn't. I disagree with you entirely.
-Liang Could you explain why you take that stance? Missiles have the advantage of being any type they wish. It would appear to be a significant advantage over turrets. I understand that turrets have the ability to do things like one shot frigs, no travel time, etc but it seems the choice of damage type would vastly outweigh those factors.
Missiles have other balance factors to them. Such as Exp velocity and Radius. And flight time etc.
You want to take something that works in rock, paper, scissors fashion and make it all Rock and everything weak to rock.
No thanks. Variety is the spice of life.
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Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
200
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Posted - 2012.03.19 22:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
You also have to remember that any changes to Hybrids along the lines of selectable damage types would also affect blasters just as much as rails.
Blasters do stupid damage in their optimal and if you gave them the ability to select damage type, they would be so overpowered as to be not funny.
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Kasutra
Tailor Company
11
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Posted - 2012.03.19 23:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Your guns aren't dealing the wrong damage type, you're shooting at the wrong kind of rat.
A PvE guy training hybrids is specializing in shooting Serpentis and Guristas. A PvE guy training lasers is specializing in shooting Sanshas and Blood Raiders.
Yeah, it sucks when alliance demands (in your case: let's move to Sansha space!) mean you can't fully utilize your specialized skills. But it happens. All the time. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
194
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Posted - 2012.03.19 23:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Azemar wrote:Exactly! That brings me back to my original point about turrets vs missiles.
Which we have already torn to shreds.
Come up with new bad ideas for us to pick apart, don't keep asking us to repeat the same evaluation. |
Dyniss
Argent Uprising
2
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Posted - 2012.03.20 04:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Hybrids are still viable against sansha and blood raiders as hybrids second dmg type is thermal and t2 ammo does a lot of thermal pretty much equal to kinetic so hybrids IMO are right up there with projectile almost in terms of dmg against pve targets. With the current changes to hybrids blasters are more perfered over rails in pve. With only a few tracking computers or ehancers you can easily shoot out to 60km with blasters heck some times I have insta popped frigs at 70+ with null although this is very rare |
Dyniss
Argent Uprising
2
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Posted - 2012.03.20 04:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
And if I my alt with tracking links I have 0.1 tracking with 2 tracking links coming from a noctis and that same noctis has enough cap to run a large shield transfer 4 tractors plus 3 salvagers stable! This is a amazing pve combo a navy domi and my alt in a noctis |
Aaron Greil
None Of You Can Compare
2
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Posted - 2012.03.20 04:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think damage type of hybrids is fine. Across all four races and all five pirate factions, thermal is, on average (I know there are some exceptions) the lowest resistance type. So shooting thermal is okay. That is a plus for hybrids. Lasers also gain this benefit, but it is less so, because EM is their primary damage type.
That said, I do think that rails need their role fixed. I love the idea of rails being the best snipers, but the Maelstrom blows the Rokh out of the water as a sniper. So here is what I propose, not that anyone will pay attention:
Switch the damage multiplier and ROF of artillery and rails, but keep the tracking, falloff, and optimal the same. This will make rail boats powerful snipers with the high alpha.
Personally, I would buff the damage of rails in particular a little more to compensate for caldari ships lack of damage bonuses, beyond the change above. In turn arties would need a little love, but I think the change would go a long way for caldari pilots, fill the attempted niche as sniper boats, and take at least one FOTM away from winmatar. |
Dyniss
Argent Uprising
2
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Posted - 2012.03.20 04:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
The only thing sniping ships need is the ability to lock past 249km heck 300km can't be to hard to ask you're still on grid out to what? 500-600km? Snipers should be able to lock to at least half that distance |
FT Diomedes
Factio Paucorum
11
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Posted - 2012.03.20 04:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
Yet another reason why crosstraining is beneficial. |
Crellion
Parental Control HELL4S
0
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Posted - 2012.03.20 08:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Azemar wrote: And yes i could go Domi and get EM sentry drones and all EM drones and probably make it better for myself, but why should i be forced into that when it's such a simple balance change?
Perhaps it might because its not that simple of a balance change. Damage type selection is the exception rather than the rule, and I'd call that a good thing. -Liang
Well it's sits at 50% now so not really an exception, over 50% if you count drones as a weapon syste. Let's call it the new rules with lasers and hybrids the necessary exception to fortify the rule.
As to OP It is very difficult to change hybrids for PvE and not affect PvP... Damage selection options on blasterships would become Fotm.
A possible improvement might* be useful if you agreed that Kronos is a PvE ship (or The PvE ship) for gallente and you changed it's web bonus (perhaps) for a 10% fal off per level. That might* assist the Gallente PvE roster without affecting PvP...
Another possible fix for Gallente pvp would be drone damage mods but this, even more than adding dmage selection to hybrids, would run a coach and horses through PvP balance... though it would only really harm Caldari...
Yeah ... all in all Kronos fall off bonus is the only one I see as viable... and even that is questionable because people might prefer keeping the web bonus... |
Crellion
Parental Control HELL4S
0
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Posted - 2012.03.20 08:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Yet another reason why crosstraining is beneficial.
Don't tempt me. There is nothing in this thread suggesting that 2 races ANY TWO RACES are not enough to pve anywhere you like... so it is an argument against what was said by you in another thread which is out of topic and let's keep it out of this thread. |
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