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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
murder one
Gallente Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.08.17 07:20:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Oh and for anyone just joining the thread, this modification would account for this effect...
simply awesome.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
WillageGirl
Advanced Tactics and Maneuvers
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Posted - 2008.08.17 10:42:00 -
[542]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Oh and for anyone just joining the thread, this modification would account for this effect...
WIN
Fighting for Our right to Cloak since 2004 |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.19 16:10:00 -
[543]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 19/08/2008 16:14:49
Quick summary and links to detailed posts with numbers, will add to as I find them:
Comparison of effective tracking of different turrets, courtesy Gabriel, post #308
EFT plot of DPS for different Battleships post patch, courtesy Bellum, post #345. Hit chance, Megathron vs Ishtar courtesy Liang, post #356,
Different Battleships DPS vs same target, courtesy Markas, post #368
Live fire test, zero-fit stabber vs Megathron, courtesy Gabriel, post #424 and 428
TQ vs Sisi distance vs time curves for a Megathron, courtesy Marn, post #453, plus afterburner bonus to blasterships numbers, Gabriel, post #456
Page detailed to modification of tracking formula to account for size vs. distance, including linear and log variations with hit % numbers, post #511, 513, 525, 531, 536, 537, courtesy of Liang/Gabriel
Detailed plots of modifcation using variations of falloff + optimal, courtesy Liang, post #452
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.19 17:48:00 -
[544]
Wow, nice concise post.
-Liang |
MAX MEXX
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Posted - 2008.08.21 14:11:00 -
[545]
Last patch was boost ammar, this patch is boost caldari, nextime galente :D? |
NanDe YaNen
The Funkalistic
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Posted - 2008.08.21 20:55:00 -
[546]
Where's the support button? ---------------------------------------
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SDragoon
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Posted - 2008.08.22 06:08:00 -
[547]
TBH blast HAVE always had a tracking problem, they just had 90% webs covering it up for the most part. They have worse tracking then autocannons for crying out loud, which have more range!
Less range + worse tracking = can't hit anything.
You just didn't notice it as much cause the doom webs almost take tracking out of the equation.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.08.22 09:18:00 -
[548]
Tracking on large blasters is fine. Low speed/agility is an issue...
One Carebear to rule them all, One Carebear to find them, One Carebear to bring them all and in the web range bind them. |
Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.08.22 13:42:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Kepakh Tracking on large blasters is fine. Low speed/agility is an issue...
If you've read the thread, you'll find tracking is far from fine. 90% webs do make the difference on TQ atm, if and when the changes make it through, they will need a massive boost to tracking to compensate.
Either that or a whole re-think on the formula.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.22 15:01:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Kepakh Tracking on large blasters is not fine. Low speed/agility is also an issue...
Fixed. Read the whole thread, or at least follow the summary post I made. Either way, don't troll. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.08.22 20:05:00 -
[551]
I don't troll. This thread is flooded by wrong assumptions, can't blame me for that. Fly the ship instead of looking at meaningless numbers and graphs. Not saying I like blaster BS after the speed patch. The patch is game breaking so no wonder how BS work now....
One Carebear to rule them all, One Carebear to find them, One Carebear to bring them all and in the web range bind them. |
Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.08.23 09:36:00 -
[552]
Can someone calculate how will be the same Mega hitting the same Stabber if the stabber has a TP from a Recon 4 Rapier and 2 webs on him?
Just want to check how well would Rapier perform it's duty after patch. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.23 10:00:00 -
[553]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/08/2008 10:03:11
Originally by: Kepakh I don't troll. This thread is flooded by wrong assumptions, can't blame me for that. Fly the ship instead of looking at meaningless numbers and graphs. Not saying I like blaster BS after the speed patch. The patch is game breaking so no wonder how BS work now....
You really have no clue how the game mechanics work do you? Those 'meaningless numbers and graphs' are EXACTLY how the game works. I even posted a live fire test Megathron vs. stabber, webbed, with no modules whatsoever, but I guess you skimmed over that too.
Tracking is not fine, but instead of a huge boost to tracking, fixing the formula to correctly account for size vs. distance is probably the right way forward...
--------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.08.23 17:21:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/08/2008 10:03:11 You really have no clue how the game mechanics work do you? Those 'meaningless numbers and graphs' are EXACTLY how the game works. I even posted a live fire test Megathron vs. stabber, webbed, with no modules whatsoever, but I guess you skimmed over that too.
Tracking is not fine, but instead of a huge boost to tracking, fixing the formula to correctly account for size vs. distance is probably the right way forward...
Tracking is an issue for anyone playing EVE on paper only. That is the difference between numbers and reality. Numbers alone without any further analysis are meaningless, you like it or not. All this thread is about numbers and numbers only. Live test? I guess you assume no skills should be involved in PvP...
One Carebear to rule them all, One Carebear to find them, One Carebear to bring them all and in the web range bind them. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.23 17:55:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Kepakh Tracking is an issue for anyone playing EVE on paper only. That is the difference between numbers and reality. Numbers alone without any further analysis are meaningless, you like it or not. All this thread is about numbers and numbers only. Live test? I guess you assume no skills should be involved in PvP...
The numbers are representative of what actually happens in Eve. I suppose that you're also of the opinion of "numbers and numbers only, psch!" when someone says that they have a 120km optimal with pulse lasers.
Oh, but you would see the number that says "optimal" and be like... "damn, that's kinda broken dude". Yes, that's because you can see the effect of the number representing optimal. Well, with sufficient testing, you can see the effect of the number called "tracking".
Yes, this thread is about "numbers, numbers, numbers"... because there's a great deal to be learned from them. BTW, please don't forget that Eve is a computer simulation. As such, it runs on "numbers and numbers only". Go back, read, pay attention, and learn.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
marakor
Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.08.23 18:24:00 -
[556]
Edited by: marakor on 23/08/2008 18:24:49
Originally by: Kepakh
Tracking is an issue for anyone playing EVE on paper only. That is the difference between numbers and reality. Numbers alone without any further analysis are meaningless, you like it or not. All this thread is about numbers and numbers only. Live test? I guess you assume no skills should be involved in PvP...
Your wasting your breath bud most of the ppl in this thread are your basic paper tigers who will sit around all day bleating on about stats until they are blue in the face, while having no idea about pvp at all.
Most of the figures they are bleating on about are only relevant in 1 v 1 pvp and as such are of equal importance to the amount of 1 v 1 pvp their actually is in eve...so no real relevance or importance at all tbh.
But let them go on, it makes them feel important and gives them something to blame when they lose their ship doing summat stupid.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.08.23 22:40:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The numbers are representative of what actually happens in Eve. I suppose that you're also of the opinion of "numbers and numbers only, psch!" when someone says that they have a 120km optimal with pulse lasers.
Oh, but you would see the number that says "optimal" and be like... "damn, that's kinda broken dude". Yes, that's because you can see the effect of the number representing optimal. Well, with sufficient testing, you can see the effect of the number called "tracking".
Yes, this thread is about "numbers, numbers, numbers"... because there's a great deal to be learned from them. BTW, please don't forget that Eve is a computer simulation. As such, it runs on "numbers and numbers only". Go back, read, pay attention, and learn.
-Liang
Jump freighters and Black Ops are cool.
One Carebear to rule them all, One Carebear to find them, One Carebear to bring them all and in the web range bind them. |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.24 16:47:00 -
[558]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 23/08/2008 10:03:11 You really have no clue how the game mechanics work do you? Those 'meaningless numbers and graphs' are EXACTLY how the game works. I even posted a live fire test Megathron vs. stabber, webbed, with no modules whatsoever, but I guess you skimmed over that too.
Tracking is not fine, but instead of a huge boost to tracking, fixing the formula to correctly account for size vs. distance is probably the right way forward...
Tracking is an issue for anyone playing EVE on paper only. That is the difference between numbers and reality. Numbers alone without any further analysis are meaningless, you like it or not. All this thread is about numbers and numbers only. Live test? I guess you assume no skills should be involved in PvP...
Oh knock it off
I've been playing since Feb 04, and I've flown Blasterthrons solo for 3 years, I KNOW how the game mechanics work. Tracking is not a noticeable problem on TQ due to 90% webs covering up the flaw in the formula.
Do you not understand size vs. distance and how the tracking formula has a flaw? Do you not understand that this game is based on the very mathematical formula posted in this thread?
Read the goddamn Sisi test I posted, unfit I repeat UNFIT and webbed Stabber vs. maximum, MAXIMUM skilled Megathron, with me, an experienced pilot, throwing it around to minimise transversal velocity, and the only hits were æwrecking hitsÆ which fall outside of the normal hit chance.
So no my friend, tracking is a problem, and unless you are going to refute pages of plots BASED ON EXACTLY HOW THE GAME ENGINE WORKS, or a genuine set of test results, then get out.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.24 16:51:00 -
[559]
Originally by: marakor Edited by: marakor on 23/08/2008 18:24:49
Originally by: Kepakh
Tracking is an issue for anyone playing EVE on paper only. That is the difference between numbers and reality. Numbers alone without any further analysis are meaningless, you like it or not. All this thread is about numbers and numbers only. Live test? I guess you assume no skills should be involved in PvP...
[snip]
Why hello there Father Dougal... --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.24 16:57:00 -
[560]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
blah
Yea yea tracking is a issue.......now all you need do is make every fight in eve a 1 v 1 affair and your points will have meaning.
Until then your figures are only as important as the amount of 1 v 1 pvp there is in eve, so not very important at all tbh.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.24 17:02:00 -
[561]
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
blah
Yea yea tracking is a issue.......now all you need do is make every fight in eve a 1 v 1 affair and your points will have meaning.
Until then your figures are only as important as the amount of 1 v 1 pvp there is in eve, so not very important at all tbh.
Nonsense.
The tracking formula has a fundamental 'hole', it doesn't matter if it's a 1 vs. 1 or a 20 vs. 20, it's still there. And with the changes to webs with the speed changes, it cripples short-range boats.
As it stands on TQ there are few advantages to using a short range boat over a medium range one (solo ability inside 10km is really about it), after the changes there are none. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.24 17:10:00 -
[562]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 24/08/2008 17:11:21
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Andnowthenews
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
blah
Yea yea tracking is a issue.......now all you need do is make every fight in eve a 1 v 1 affair and your points will have meaning.
Until then your figures are only as important as the amount of 1 v 1 pvp there is in eve, so not very important at all tbh.
Nonsense.
The tracking formula has a fundamental 'hole', it doesn't matter if it's a 1 vs. 1 or a 20 vs. 20, it's still there. And with the changes to webs with the speed changes, it cripples short-range boats.
As it stands on TQ there are few advantages to using a short range boat over a medium range one (solo ability inside 10km is really about it), after the changes there are none.
I tested gang vs gang fighting in actual combat up to 20 vs 20 when the patch first came on sisi we tried various scenarios, fits and ship types and other than there being considerably less need for skill and combat piloting, tracking was not really a issue.
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Kepakh
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Posted - 2008.08.24 17:14:00 -
[563]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
The tracking formula has a fundamental 'hole', it doesn't matter if it's a 1 vs. 1 or a 20 vs. 20, it's still there. And with the changes to webs with the speed changes, it cripples short-range boats.
As it stands on TQ there are few advantages to using a short range boat over a medium range one (solo ability inside 10km is really about it), after the changes there are none.
I would debate about the 'hole' but...meh...
One Carebear to rule them all, One Carebear to find them, One Carebear to bring them all and in the web range bind them. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.24 17:24:00 -
[564]
Originally by: Andnowthenews I tested gang vs gang fighting in actual combat up to 20 vs 20 when the patch first came on sisi we tried various scenarios, fits and ship types and other than there being considerably less need for skill and combat piloting, tracking was not really a issue.
TBH, even on TQ anyone bringing a blaster ship to a 20 man gang is a failure of a pilot. This is the domain of medium range weaponry.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.24 17:46:00 -
[565]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 24/08/2008 17:46:54
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Andnowthenews I tested gang vs gang fighting in actual combat up to 20 vs 20 when the patch first came on sisi we tried various scenarios, fits and ship types and other than there being considerably less need for skill and combat piloting, tracking was not really a issue.
TBH, even on TQ anyone bringing a blaster ship to a 20 man gang is a failure of a pilot. This is the domain of medium range weaponry.
-Liang
Witch leads to the question, with such a huge range restriction and limited sweet spot of dmg dealing wtf use are blaster ships in any kind of pvp compared to other ships?.
Even in a RR gang ships with slightly less damage but much better range are preferred and easier to use in combat.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.08.24 20:30:00 -
[566]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Witch leads to the question, with such a huge range restriction and limited sweet spot of dmg dealing wtf use are blaster ships in any kind of pvp compared to other ships?.
Well that's the thing isn't it. They're good in smaller gangs. The issue is that cruiser sized vessels can get under the guns of Large Blasters, so not only will you have trouble hitting anything out of webrange but also in webrange. Like everyone has been saying this is an obvious hole in the function of blasters. Being able to nullify all damage from guns by orbiting 0-2km to a blaster BS is almost in the same category of nanos outrunning missiles. Large Blasters, imo, should still damage a cruiser while webbed that's orbiting 0-2km not for full damage of course, but not for 0 damage either as torps will still hit no matter how close you get.
Ships should stay at range and kite Large Blasters. However, something like Pulses, theoretically, should be exploited by getting close to the ship. That's the balance that's missing with the -60% web change.
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.08.25 07:34:00 -
[567]
I hate to remind you, but can someone calculate the chances of the same Mega against the same stabber, when the stabber is TPed and double webbed by a Recon 4 Rapier?
Please, pretty please? ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Snow Banshee
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Posted - 2008.08.25 07:55:00 -
[568]
Edited by: Snow Banshee on 25/08/2008 07:55:58 Quick question. I beg some patience, but since now there is any feedback from CCP at least saiing that they are aware of the problem ( or that they dont consider it a problem)? The staf gave any feedback at all?
Note: Yesterday i saw Mega Navy selling in contracts at 280M .. i guess its a good feedback on the patch changes.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.25 09:10:00 -
[569]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 25/08/2008 09:11:22
Originally by: Delichon I hate to remind you, but can someone calculate the chances of the same Mega against the same stabber, when the stabber is TPed and double webbed by a Recon 4 Rapier?
Please, pretty please?
It would be tripple webbed in that case, so doing about 22 m/sec maximum. A single target painter on a Rapier gives up to 51.6% boost to sig radius, since a Stabber (base) is 105m, that is 160m.
The Megathron in question tracks at 0.083 rads/sec, i.e 50% hits on a Battleship-sized target (400m) moving at 125m/sec at 1.5km.
So for this (tripple webbed + painted) Stabber, an 86% hit chance at 1.5km, see guide to play around with the numbers more. --------------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2008.08.30 22:16:00 -
[570]
*knock Knock* Hallooooo?.... Anyone there?...
Just another thought (partly because I hate just æbumpÆ): If modifying the tracking formula proves too much of a ball-ache, and a 'quick and dirty' solution is needed, how about trying an intermediate of web 'stopping power' (up to 75% ?) combined with a boost to tracking.
If Null becomes too much of an issue, tweak the penalty to be harsher on that ammo, so that inside 5km (AM/Void L) you track better than today, but with weaker webs, and outside 10km (Null L) you aren't tracking smaller targets as well.
But seriously, tinkering with tracking formula = win. Oh and, closing with targets will still be an issue...
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
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