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sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.09.27 17:57:00 -
[811]
Go branko. I dont really see how the falcon n00bs can still go on about how perfectly fine the falcon is when its obviously is not.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 19:25:00 -
[812]
Just wondering, why has every falcon run away from my lone bomber over the last week if they are so overpowered?
I would also like to know why ECCM works in reducing a falcons effectivness vs my geddons while others in here get jammed constantly.
Equaly I would like to know what it is I am doing right because falcons dont impact me as much as others in this threadnought...
But most importantly. If I can counter falcons while you lot cant why can I not get a slowboat to kill a nano
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sdthujfg
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Posted - 2008.09.27 19:31:00 -
[813]
Originally by: baltec1 Just wondering, why has every falcon run away from my lone bomber over the last week if they are so overpowered?
I would also like to know why ECCM works in reducing a falcons effectivness vs my geddons while others in here get jammed constantly.
Equaly I would like to know what it is I am doing right because falcons dont impact me as much as others in this threadnought...
But most importantly. If I can counter falcons while you lot cant why can I not get a slowboat to kill a nano
Because you fail at eve.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.27 19:50:00 -
[814]
Originally by: Cpt Branko As a Minmatar pilot, the only ship I can field firing at Falcon ranges is a Maelstorm
Congratulations on discovering one of the reasons Minmatar need rebalancing: artillery sucks, and therefore Minmatar ships share the Gallente weakness of inability to deal with targets at long range. This is not a problem with Falcons, it's a problem with the entire Minmatar design concept. See this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=881275
Quote: - with a DC II as its only tank, and all the mobility/etc which goes with lugging around a sniper BS which will melt in < 20 seconds of any fire. To actually score a Falcon kill, three are required.
Congratulations on discovering the weakness of long range ships.
The downside to a short range fleet is the inability to deal with targets at longer ranges.
The downside to a long range fleet is a significant disadvantage in tank, tracking and dps if successfully engaged by a close range fleet.
What you're asking for is an option with neither weakness, which would be a massively broken win button.
Quote: Even if you want to do it in a BS-sized hull with all the resulting weaknesses, then you better have Amarr / Caldari BS on hand, as the amount of gimpedness required to hit 200km on Gallente/Minmatar sniper BS means that being primary by two BS leads to being very dead within one jam cycle.
See the thread linked above. Yes, this is a problem, and it's a fundamental problem with the Gallente/Minmatar design concept. Falcons are just one of the ships that demonstrate it, even if you delete them completely you'll still have the fundamental problem to deal with.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.09.27 20:44:00 -
[815]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: baltec1 Just wondering, why has every falcon run away from my lone bomber over the last week if they are so overpowered?
I would also like to know why ECCM works in reducing a falcons effectivness vs my geddons while others in here get jammed constantly.
Equaly I would like to know what it is I am doing right because falcons dont impact me as much as others in this threadnought...
But most importantly. If I can counter falcons while you lot cant why can I not get a slowboat to kill a nano
Because you fail at eve.
I fail because I can sneek up on a falcon in my bomber, get a point on it and cause this to happen to it
As I said, falcons are not gods.
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Azeroth Uluntil
Caldari Trident Enterprises Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.09.27 23:28:00 -
[816]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: baltec1 Just wondering, why has every falcon run away from my lone bomber over the last week if they are so overpowered?
I would also like to know why ECCM works in reducing a falcons effectivness vs my geddons while others in here get jammed constantly.
Equaly I would like to know what it is I am doing right because falcons dont impact me as much as others in this threadnought...
But most importantly. If I can counter falcons while you lot cant why can I not get a slowboat to kill a nano
Because you fail at eve.
I fail because I can sneek up on a falcon in my bomber, get a point on it and cause this to happen to it
As I said, falcons are not gods.
Far from it. Just way too many incompetent pilots that don't have a clue how to deal with certain types of warfare.
That being said, I myself am a falcon pilot. There are quite a few viable counters to falcons, one definately being a stealth bomber as baltec1 listed. Also, as listed by the thread in question about eccm, they do indeed work as designed.
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Broegitte Bardot
BINFORD Solidus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.28 00:24:00 -
[817]
they sure aren't gods... but i still haven't heard why the bugger is allowed to work at 213+41km with skills to IV. especially with a speed nerf damocles'ing above us. ... or why rapier can't paint / pilgrims can't tracking disrupt that far (i see why arazus shouldn't) aka Roemy Schneider (probably lacking game time again) |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.28 06:25:00 -
[818]
Originally by: sdthujfg
Originally by: baltec1 Just wondering, why has every falcon run away from my lone bomber over the last week if they are so overpowered?
I would also like to know why ECCM works in reducing a falcons effectivness vs my geddons while others in here get jammed constantly.
Equaly I would like to know what it is I am doing right because falcons dont impact me as much as others in this threadnought...
But most importantly. If I can counter falcons while you lot cant why can I not get a slowboat to kill a nano
Because you fail at eve.
You fail..just everything Awesome EVE history
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.28 09:07:00 -
[819]
Originally by: Broegitte Bardot they sure aren't gods... but i still haven't heard why the bugger is allowed to work at 213+41km with skills to IV. especially with a speed nerf damocles'ing above us. ... or why rapier can't paint / pilgrims can't tracking disrupt that far (i see why arazus shouldn't)
The Falcon can work at that range because it's a fleet ewar ship, and fleet ships need to be able to engage from 0-250km.
The Pilgrim can not tracking disrupt from 250km because it is a hybrid ewar/capwar/dps ship. Since it is designed to fight below 15km (neut range), 250km tracking disruptors are just silly.
I have no idea why the Rapier can not target paint at 250km. Webs at that range would be insanely overpowered, but I can't see any problem with painters. I guess nobody really cares enough, I can't even remember the last Rapier fit I saw that actually used a painter.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.28 10:14:00 -
[820]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/09/2008 10:14:57 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 28/09/2008 10:14:30
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
The Falcon can work at that range because it's a fleet ewar ship, and fleet ships need to be able to engage from 0-250km.
There is no reason for the falcon for needing to be a fleet ewar ship. Rook and scorps can do that just fine. It's just that the falcon has pretty much all the advantages plus more, that is why it is used as a fleet ewar ship AND small gang warfare ship AND alts for soloers AND scouts; It does not NEED to be a fleet ewar ship. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.28 10:48:00 -
[821]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer There is no reason for the falcon for needing to be a fleet ewar ship. Rook and scorps can do that just fine. It's just that the falcon has pretty much all the advantages plus more, that is why it is used as a fleet ewar ship AND small gang warfare ship AND alts for soloers AND scouts; It does not NEED to be a fleet ewar ship.
No, there's a very simple reason: it's a Caldari ship, and ALL Caldari ships are fleet ships.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.28 10:54:00 -
[822]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
No, there's a very simple reason: it's a Caldari ship, and ALL Caldari ships are fleet ships.
By fleet ships you mean 150+km operating ships right. Sorry but all caldari ships are NOT fleet ships. You need to check your info again. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.28 11:04:00 -
[823]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer By fleet ships you mean 150+km operating ships right. Sorry but all caldari ships are NOT fleet ships. You need to check your info again.
Yes they are. Every Caldari battleship and T2 ship above the frigate level is designed for a 0-250km fleet. Even the Harpy and Cormorant are capable of engaging at up to 100km (we don't speak of the abomination that is the Hawk). The only ships that can't hit at least 100km:
1) Onyx/Crow/Flycatcher/Raptor/frigates: they're tacklers, and therefore scramble the target at 20km while your fleet kills it from 250km.
2) Drake: it's the "short range gank" anti-support ship, and even it is capable of hitting 80km.
3) Nighthawk: it's not a PvP ship. Pretend it doesn't exist until it gets fixed (including swapping the precision bonus for 10% missile velocity/level).
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 13:14:00 -
[824]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 28/09/2008 13:14:50
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer There is no reason for the falcon for needing to be a fleet ewar ship. Rook and scorps can do that just fine. It's just that the falcon has pretty much all the advantages plus more, that is why it is used as a fleet ewar ship AND small gang warfare ship AND alts for soloers AND scouts; It does not NEED to be a fleet ewar ship.
No, there's a very simple reason: it's a Caldari ship, and ALL Caldari ships are fleet ships.
You mean, it's overpowered by design?
That is what comes across when you say it's a fleet warfare ship and small gang warfare ship and scout and alt 'get out of jail' free card all in one, by design. Overpowered design doesn't make it fine.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Spartan dax
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 14:32:00 -
[825]
Originally by: Broegitte Bardot they sure aren't gods... but i still haven't heard why the bugger is allowed to work at 213+41km with skills to IV. especially with a speed nerf damocles'ing above us. ... or why rapier can't paint / pilgrims can't tracking disrupt that far (i see why arazus shouldn't)
213k Falcons are always rigged, without them they would sit 40-50k closer. Just another thing Falcon whiners choose not to pay attention to.
What I find most amusing about all this is that if it hadn't been for bookmarks not a single complaint would be lodged against Falcons.
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Turelle
Holy Paladins United Pod Service
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Posted - 2008.09.28 18:13:00 -
[826]
213k Falcons are always rigged, without them they would sit 40-50k closer.
ok, so a 100m ship can remove several ships worth alot more from the field. In terms of low sec pvp if your camping, you can quite easily sit out of sentry range and jam away. never getting shot by the guns.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.28 19:01:00 -
[827]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer By fleet ships you mean 150+km operating ships right. Sorry but all caldari ships are NOT fleet ships. You need to check your info again.
Yes they are. Every Caldari battleship and T2 ship above the frigate level is designed for a 0-250km fleet. Even the Harpy and Cormorant are capable of engaging at up to 100km (we don't speak of the abomination that is the Hawk). The only ships that can't hit at least 100km:
1) Onyx/Crow/Flycatcher/Raptor/frigates: they're tacklers, and therefore scramble the target at 20km while your fleet kills it from 250km.
2) Drake: it's the "short range gank" anti-support ship, and even it is capable of hitting 80km.
3) Nighthawk: it's not a PvP ship. Pretend it doesn't exist until it gets fixed (including swapping the precision bonus for 10% missile velocity/level).
So basically you have changed the definition of fleet ships that you implied earlier from "ships that can hit past 150km" to "ship that are useful in fleets". This means there is no reason at all to not nerf the range of the falcon. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.09.28 19:58:00 -
[828]
Originally by: Broegitte Bardot they sure aren't gods... but i still haven't heard why the bugger is allowed to work at 213+41km with skills to IV. especially with a speed nerf damocles'ing above us. ... or why rapier can't paint / pilgrims can't tracking disrupt that far (i see why arazus shouldn't)
Its their job. Its the same as my bomber moving faster while cloaked and being able to fit battleship class weapons. The pilgrim is mainly a close range ship and the rapier makes a fantastic anti ceptor/nano platform.
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echohead
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:09:00 -
[829]
I haven't gone through this whole thread, but I shall reiterate a few other posters.
The Falcon is a paper ship, if anyone locks it it is dead
ECCMS fit them
I fly falcons in large fleet battles often, I have left my mark, but I almost always pop before the fight is over. It is just the way the ship is.
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.28 20:28:00 -
[830]
falcons do one thing: jam...tehy cant do shit in any other field...thats like all caldari ships are: very specialilzed. And as tehre are a few ships thatc an fire at such a range but there is no other ship than the falcon ebing able to jam at that range its more likely a counter to sniper Ships, too...as they are a counter to it
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.29 08:59:00 -
[831]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So basically you have changed the definition of fleet ships that you implied earlier from "ships that can hit past 150km" to "ship that are useful in fleets". This means there is no reason at all to not nerf the range of the falcon.
How the hell is that changing the definition? You're the one who came up with the "150+km operating ships" definition instead of the more obvious "ships that are useful in fleets". Falcons need 250km range to do their job of fleet ewar, but that doesn't mean every fleet ship needs that range. Allow me to make it very clear:
Fleet dps ships (battleships) need 250km range to engage the primary target at all possible ranges.
Fleet ewar ships need 250km range to put their ewar on the critical targets (usually sniper battleships) at all possible ranges.
Anti-support ships need the range to hit hostile support at whatever range it happens to be operating at. This is often, but not always, 250km. The 250km Cerberus/Eagle/Vulture are awesome at the job, but the shorter-ranged Zealot and Drake still often have plenty of targets. Similarly, anti-frigate support ships (such as the Harpy and Cormorant) are not hindered by lack of 250km range, as hostile tacklers will always be much closer or they aren't doing their job.
Fleet tacklers need speed and the ability to keep a 20-30km point on the target.
Every Caldari ship is designed for long-range fleet combat. Even the T1 cruisers/frigates are designed for long-range fleet combat on the more limited scale of T1 ships, while the "endgame" ships are all based around 250km engagement ranges. The Falcon fits this design concept, and must continue to do so. End of discussion.
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DiaBlo UK
Killer Koalas
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Posted - 2008.09.29 10:23:00 -
[832]
OMG, is there some sort of Nerfing Weekly magazine you all subscribe to that i'm missing out on? Maybe a news letter you can sign up to? Get weekly e-mails telling you what to whine about next?
Originally by: CCP Navigator Pretty sure someone is selling tinfoil hats. You should buy one
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.29 11:32:00 -
[833]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So basically you have changed the definition of fleet ships that you implied earlier from "ships that can hit past 150km" to "ship that are useful in fleets". This means there is no reason at all to not nerf the range of the falcon.
How the hell is that changing the definition? You're the one who came up with the "150+km operating ships" definition instead of the more obvious "ships that are useful in fleets". Falcons need 250km range to do their job of fleet ewar, but that doesn't mean every fleet ship needs that range. Allow me to make it very clear:
Fleet dps ships (battleships) need 250km range to engage the primary target at all possible ranges.
Fleet ewar ships need 250km range to put their ewar on the critical targets (usually sniper battleships) at all possible ranges.
Anti-support ships need the range to hit hostile support at whatever range it happens to be operating at. This is often, but not always, 250km. The 250km Cerberus/Eagle/Vulture are awesome at the job, but the shorter-ranged Zealot and Drake still often have plenty of targets. Similarly, anti-frigate support ships (such as the Harpy and Cormorant) are not hindered by lack of 250km range, as hostile tacklers will always be much closer or they aren't doing their job.
Fleet tacklers need speed and the ability to keep a 20-30km point on the target.
Every Caldari ship is designed for long-range fleet combat. Even the T1 cruisers/frigates are designed for long-range fleet combat on the more limited scale of T1 ships, while the "endgame" ships are all based around 250km engagement ranges. The Falcon fits this design concept, and must continue to do so. End of discussion.
By that logic ALL ships are fleet ships because ALL ships have uses in fleets. So wich is it. |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.29 11:47:00 -
[834]
I think you are making yourself look bad Merin - the nurf people want is spacifically towards the Falcon - not the Rook or the Scorp or the Widow. Its the combination of range, the power of ECM, the size of ship and the cov. ops cloak that make it too good. The range nurf would be what you should hope forr - because a nurf will happen and its probably going to hit one of the other things.
Personally I think ECCM should short the ECM ship - disable its locking for 20 seconds upon failer of jamming. ----
ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense. |
Sidus Isaacs
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:12:00 -
[835]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 29/09/2008 12:12:10
Originally by: Borat Sangdiev There should be no ship that is allowed to completely disable your ability to target back and fight. Perma jamming falcons and ecm are overpowered. nerf it.
Back to WoW. Its a caldari strengt, deal with it or just juse them yourself if they are the be all and all .
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:17:00 -
[836]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer By that logic ALL ships are fleet ships because ALL ships have uses in fleets. So wich is it.
No, they aren't. In fact, almost all Gallente/Minmatar ships fail to meet those requirements due to lack of range.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:19:00 -
[837]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer By that logic ALL ships are fleet ships because ALL ships have uses in fleets. So wich is it.
No, they aren't. In fact, almost all Gallente/Minmatar ships fail to meet those requirements due to lack of range.
What minmatar ship cant be a heavy tackler or support close range dps? What gallente ship cant fit rails or be close range support with sentry drones? ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:24:00 -
[838]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What minmatar ship cant be a heavy tackler
Any of them that are not named "Broadsword". The Rapier and Vagabond can be fast tacklers, but not heavy tacklers.
Quote: or support close range dps?
The role does not exist. Read the range requirements I posted.
Quote: What gallente ship cant fit rails or be close range support with sentry drones?
All of them. Gallente railboats are just sucky attempts at making an Amarr ship, and have no purpose in fleets once you finish training Amarr skills.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:27:00 -
[839]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What minmatar ship cant be a heavy tackler
Any of them that are not named "Broadsword". The Rapier and Vagabond can be fast tacklers, but not heavy tacklers.
Quote: or support close range dps?
The role does not exist. Read the range requirements I posted.
Quote: What gallente ship cant fit rails or be close range support with sentry drones?
All of them. Gallente railboats are just sucky attempts at making an Amarr ship, and have no purpose in fleets once you finish training Amarr skills.
So wait let me get this straight: You have no sub BS sub 150km ships in your fleet? All BS, ecm and frig tacklers? You obviously have no clue about the power of a 50km hitting sub BS support fleet. Yes rails work perfectly at that range. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:30:00 -
[840]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/09/2008 12:30:26
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer So wait let me get this straight: You have no sub BS sub 150km ships in your fleet? All BS, ecm and frig tacklers?
Read what I posted before whining please. I specifically mentioned the Drake and Zealot.
Quote: You obviously have no clue about the power of a 50km hitting sub BS support fleet. Yes rails work perfectly at that range.
No, they don't. Gallente railboats are hopelessly outperformed by Amarr ships in the 50km range (as well as by missile ships, but let's compare gunboats to gunboats). Like I said, the only reason to ever fly the Gallente ship is if you're still training your Amarr skills.
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