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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:37:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Forge Lag on 31/07/2008 08:38:08
And if we replace torps with cruises in that scanario (tight orbit vs cruiser).... even cooler eh? Try with your sniper guns.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:49:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Typhado3
best ew, best logistics, best pve and a few decent pvp ships.... yeah I think caldari will survive if missiles are balanced a bit. just if you do change something make it a balance not a complete killing of the weapon system like nanos.
missiles always hit/constant damage - turrets get wrecking/misses
missiles can hit point blank - turrets can hit if low transversal
missiles can choose damage type - turrets can choose range by ammo
missiles have longest natural range - turrets can increase range with mods
missiles have no effective counter - turrets have falloff
missiles are easier to get into - turrets can increase tracking with mods
missiles take time to hit target - they use not cap (minmatar pay for that too)
t2 missile ammo - t2 turret ammo
missiles have good damage at all ranges - turrets have good damage at close range
missiles have better specialization skills (mainly the range ones and decreased sig radius one)
Anyone got any things to add for either side?
theres already a slight imbalance towards missiles there, not anything to completely freak out over, but then a few more special missiles come in:
assault launchers; a long range anti frig weapon for cruisers... i don't see any equivalent among the turrets.
cruise missiles have 300m sig radius, it's only bs sized weapon with this.
Always hit yes, but damage is never constant. Lower sig decrease the damage, same does speed. Get above certain speed and and yes missiles hit, but do 0.0 damage. No matter if your transversal is zero.
Missiles can choose damage type yes, but turrets get wrecking hots. Also, T2 missiles have different range then T1. Cruise example, T1 249 with max skills, T2 precision just above 100km, T2 high damage, no clue never tried them, but well under 100km.
Missiles have longest range yes, but it takes forever for them to get there, where turrets do instadamage.
MIssiles mo effective counter? Sig radius, speed, and all other counters that work on turrets except tracking disruptor.
MIssiles easy to get into, might be, but you wont do much with thoose missiles until you have your skills up. And even then it`s not a valid point for nerfing, it`s a question about adding SP or changing ranks on skills for missiles.
Quote:
Missile take time to hit target - Use no cap (minmatar pay for that to)??
What you trying to say? That this is a good thing? Last time I checked people hate it that it takes time for missiles to reach target. No cap... projectile guns m8, they dont use cap either.
Quote:
Missiles have good damage at all ranges - Turrets have good damage at close range
Same with missiles. Wanna have good damage at close range fit close range missiles.
And I dont quite understand what you mean, guns can get great damage at ragne to. While my cruise are doing maybe 400-500 HP at 0% reists, turretowners get wrecking shots reaching well above 1400 HP...
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Forge Lag
Edited by: Forge Lag on 31/07/2008 08:38:08
And if we replace torps with cruises in that scanario (tight orbit vs cruiser).... even cooler eh? Try with your sniper guns.
Yeah, and try to hit a target at 200km with your "sniper" cruise missiles and see them move out of range or warp of in the 28 seconds it takes those cruises to get there.
If you want to argue that missiles and guns don't work in the same way, that's another thread.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.07.31 08:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Forge Lag
Edited by: Forge Lag on 31/07/2008 08:38:08
And if we replace torps with cruises in that scanario (tight orbit vs cruiser).... even cooler eh? Try with your sniper guns.
Right back at ya then, what if we change thoose sniper guns with close range guns?
OMG, the cruiser will be web and killed... imagine that.
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Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:27:00 -
[35]
No it will orbit you at 400% of current speed or even at 1 000% of current speed. GL hitting that.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:37:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Forge Lag
No it will orbit you at 400% of current speed or even at 1 000% of current speed. GL hitting that.
Erm, exactly what speeds are we talking about here? 400% and 1000% 
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.31 09:41:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Forge Lag
No it will orbit you at 400% of current speed or even at 1 000% of current speed. GL hitting that.
Erm, exactly what speeds are we talking about here? 400% and 1000%
Currently, 90% webs exist. Target speed is 10% of the max. After the patch, best webs are 60% => target speed is 40% of max. It goes four times as fast, that is, 400% of current speed. Good luck hitting that indeed. (No idea where the 1000% came from.)
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Gradient forum |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:21:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Currently, 90% webs exist. Target speed is 10% of the max. After the patch, best webs are 60% => target speed is 40% of max. It goes four times as fast, that is, 400% of current speed.
Yes, I know, I was looking for the speed this post-patch cruiser is supposed to do, orbiting at 500m.
I don't know what kind of cruisers you guys are flying but mine don't tend to go that fast when I have to keep a tight 500m orbit.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:34:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Currently, 90% webs exist. Target speed is 10% of the max. After the patch, best webs are 60% => target speed is 40% of max. It goes four times as fast, that is, 400% of current speed.
Yes, I know, I was looking for the speed this post-patch cruiser is supposed to do, orbiting at 500m.
I don't know what kind of cruisers you guys are flying but mine don't tend to go that fast when I have to keep a tight 500m orbit.
For max-skilled Megathron with electron blasters (pretty much the best-tracking heavy gun out there, against a cruiser with sig radius of 130, the hit percentage drops to 50 at the whopping speed of 14 m/s. It will do zero damage at 30 m/s. If your cruisers won't go that fast (even webbed), I strongly recommend training your skills up a bit.
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Gradient forum |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:38:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
For max-skilled Megathron with electron blasters (pretty much the best-tracking heavy gun out there, against a cruiser with sig radius of 130, the hit percentage drops to 50 at the whopping speed of 14 m/s. It will do zero damage at 30 m/s. If your cruisers won't go that fast (even webbed), I strongly recommend training your skills up a bit.
I'm just trying to figure out why the damn Domi hasn't torn it to shreds yet 
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Medore
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:35:00 -
[41]
missiles and turrets are different, and one is better at some things than others!? omg why did no-one tell me
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Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Elaine Celeste
Shhh, nobody's crying about Ravens being too good in pve because, well, npc rats don't really cry all that much.
But yeah, since the raven is pretty much the best npc killer out there it's just about time to nerf it, since, according to CCP, if everybody does it, it must be nerfed.
Eve: Bricks in space
not everybody do use the raven get your facts right before asking for nerf, You nerf *****s/noobs who dont understand how the game works is going to **** this game up.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:58:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vision Threads
Edited by: Vision Threads on 31/07/2008 00:52:15
Don't get me wrong guys. I'm not *really* trying to argue that the raven needs to be nerfed because of its PVE power. Sure, the raven is too good at PVE. But who cares about PVE, really? I don't...but boy the whining anti-nano carebears do.
I'm simply pointing out that when missiles are nerfed because of their newly-increased PVP power, it's going to bring the raven down the level of turret battleships as far as PVE goes.
You have to appreciate the the delicious irony: an indirect result of all the anti-nano carebear whining is going to be the nerfing of their precious ravens and drakes. Unless of course CCP would rather leave ravens and drakes as imbalanced cruiser and frigate killing machines.
You really don't know this game very well do you. Or anything about game design. Or anything even apparently about PvE.
- CCP didn't change nano systems because a load of people whined. Any idiot could look at what Nozh wrote and see that the reason they did it is due to their own sense of balance, not what anyone else wrote. People have whined for years about things like NPC corps and they've never changed. Read up on MMO design and their lifecycles before you claim to be an expert.
- That you call those that did call for changes 'anti-nano carebears' just broadcasts your hypocrisy, childishness, ignorance, and lack of understanding about the game. I believe WoW or UT might cater better given your inability to appreciate the depth & complexity of EVE.
- Yes the Raven is a capable PvE ship. You're on drugs though if you think it's the only one flown. I see people doing level 4s in Domis, Abaddons, Apocs (the one I use for when I need the cash) even the odd Hyperion, all the time. They all manage just fine. I don't see the empire mission runners caring one whit about reductions for Ravens.
- The fact that missile systems have been so underused for years in PvP that no-one was even bothered that their primary direct counter, defenders, is useless, gives a big hint as to how much we should care if suddenly missiles are viable in PvP. I'd predict a better missile defense before changes to missiles, to be honest. You also seem to have forgotten that generally people don't fit FoF and so ECM remains a perfectly viable counter, just like with other combat.
Get off your high horse & soapbox, you're only making yourself look foolish & immature. Oh and before you flame, I don't use missiles in PvP, though I have fought them, and I've been known to use them once or twice in PvE and found it very dull.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation or alliance, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... |
Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:14:00 -
[44]
Haha I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point. Anything I post here, right or wrong, doesn't even matter. The devs are testing the pvp capability of missiles themselves right now according to that last post by noahz. They'll see the truth, and nerf as they feel appropriate. CCP has a penchant for being heavy-handed with the nerfs. And it's going to bleed into PVE just like the torp changes did.
You see, this isn't a really request for a nerf, or a justification for one. It's a prophecy. No metagaming on this forum is going to change what the devs see when they fire cruise missiles at MWD and AB cruisers, or when they fire heavy missiles at frigates.
I appreciate the bumps, though.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:18:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Vision Threads
This is one more reason that missiles need to be looked at
Originally by: Vision Threads
You see, this isn't a really request for a nerf, or a justification for one. It's a prophecy.
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Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vision Threads
Haha I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point. Anything I post here, right or wrong, doesn't even matter. The devs are testing the pvp capability of missiles themselves right now according to that last post by noahz. They'll see the truth, and nerf as they feel appropriate. CCP has a penchant for being heavy-handed with the nerfs. And it's going to bleed into PVE just like the torp changes did.
You see, this isn't a really request for a nerf, or a justification for one. It's a prophecy. No metagaming on this forum is going to change what the devs see when they fire cruise missiles at MWD and AB cruisers, or when they fire heavy missiles at frigates.
I appreciate the bumps, though.
Nohz even alluded to maytbe having a look at missiles in the context of this change in his original post, before Sisi was opened for testing and the flamewars started.... they knew they might have a problem, I think.
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Exlegion
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 15:55:00 -
[47]
I want to sympathize with the pro-nano camp, I really do. But with all these silly after-shock threads about they're making it extremely difficult.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Traidor Disloyal
NightCrew
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:23:00 -
[48]
I have never known so many people who like p_i_s_s_i_n_g on their on cereal. I look forward to the day we all play bumper cars in our pods.
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Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot |
Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.08.01 02:58:00 -
[49]
I fully support the nerfing of PVE, hopefully it will bring back industrial level to what they were 2 years ago.
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Osher
Caldari
Hadean Drive Yards
Archaean Cooperative
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Posted - 2008.08.01 03:44:00 -
[50]
Fix Defender Missiles.
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Qduhaf
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Posted - 2008.08.01 04:22:00 -
[51]
CCP should nerf cruises so they are in line with railguns and artillery, while increasing sig radius, etc of rats so that they reamin effective in PVE.
Really I'd say that 80% of eve is PVE (miners, missioners and ratters) so of course you can't distrub that customer base, but to make the cruise raven the defacto, all purpose BS is just crazy
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Aypse
Aypse's Holiday
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Posted - 2008.08.01 17:17:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Yes the Raven is a capable PvE ship. You're on drugs though if you think it's the only one flown. I see people doing level 4s in Domis, Abaddons, Apocs (the one I use for when I need the cash) even the odd Hyperion, all the time. They all manage just fine. I don't see the empire mission runners caring one whit about reductions for Ravens.
Yes, and its just coincidence that Ravens/CNRs are flown in greater amounts in PVE than all those other ships combined. Its also coincidence that when people ask what race is the best for PVE, that the consensus is Caldari + raven. Right.....right?
Or perhaps its because the Raven is the clear cut best BS for lvl4s AND for 0.0 ratting. Low SP requirements, choose damage type, and a perma-run active shield tank combine to make it THE battleship for PVE. You can use other BSs for level4's, but we all know that in nearly all missions, the raven is the most effecient.
Reducing the mechanics that reward blobbing:
Eve-O Forum Link |
Spurty
Caldari
Trader's Academy
Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:07:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Spurty on 01/08/2008 18:09:13
I use a cerb for all missions, I find it less prone to sudden death by scramming frigates.
I believe missions are designed for missile boats and drones equally.
Don't so much feel missiles need nerfing (as their damage is so low, albeit it consistent), but that guns miss far too often.
Even sat at 0ms my maelstrom will fail to hit a secure container 100km (50kms inside optimal.Yah artillery, <sadface about dps over time>) away every now and and then.
Balancing all weapons based on them having equal ability to hit a target would show how poor missiles are.
As it stands, guns are inferior to missiles as they 'randomly' miss and even more randomly strike 'wrecking' hits.
--
Two prostitutes standing on a street corner. One says to the other, "Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" The other replies, "No, but I've been swung around by the ****!" |
griff1972
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.08.01 18:38:00 -
[54]
this topic makes me laugh, there are many other ships that can rat faster than a raven, the reason why there are more ratting ravens is because there are more caldri. this alone does not justify nerfing it.
CCp "The paying Customer seems to be enjoying that modual," "yeah lets nerf him"
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Mika Meroko
Minmatar
Crayon Posting Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.02 20:45:00 -
[55]
alot of people fly ships.. nerf ships...
seriously.... I got a weird feeling I am in a troll thread....
oh and missiles... yeah, not that great for everything... every tried hitting a frig/inty with crusies from your precious CNR??
I prefer guns anyday =P
Originally by: CCP Atropos
I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
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Vision Threads
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:19:00 -
[56]
Quote:
We're still making adjustments to missiles on our internal servers, we've been tweaking the numbers using the current missile damage formula but also exploring other possibilities.
Mwahahahaha
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Beltantis Torrence
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Posted - 2008.08.13 14:12:00 -
[57]
I'd be Ok with every race having at least 1 missile oriented battleship. I do think that DPS on Raven and powergrid on Drake should be modified a bit. In my view of balance on Eve a torp Raven would do less damage than an AC fitted typhoon/blasterthron, more damage than rail Mega and Amarr laser boats w/ longer range ammo. Basically, the longer distance you can shoot to, the less damage you should do and you should always be able to track the ships you're meant to be able to shoot at in the optimal of your weapon. That's balance rather than currently the DPS for a given ship might be equal to or greater than a shorter range ship of another race which doesn't really make sense to me unless there's some other great bonus to the short range ship.
Until they fix torps I'm sorta wondering why I'd ever fly a blasterthron or short range ship in general. And in reference to the drake it has too many EHP for the amount of damage it can put out when its fitted with 3x BCU + HAMs so the grid should be altered that it'd have to drop MWD to fit the HAMs or drop the LSE. Maybe a higher stacking nerf on BCU's so it does less damage in that scenario. Brutix should be a viable ship but it has less than a third the tank for comparable DPS.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.08.13 15:46:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Yes, and its just coincidence that Ravens/CNRs are flown in greater amounts in PVE than all those other ships combined. Its also coincidence that when people ask what race is the best for PVE, that the consensus is Caldari + raven. Right.....right?
Wrong. Or, at least, not quite right. The Raven isn't clearly the best mission ship - Domi, Abaddon, Apoc are all at least its equals. The reason that it's so popular is that a bog-standard Cruise Raven is relatively easy to train for and fly, so it's an attractive choice for your average newbie mission-runner who doesn't understanding tracking properly. They may realise later that it isn't really the best choice, but by that stage they're so far down the missile-spamming Raven path that switching doesn't seem that attractive.
If you wanted to counter this effect, you could bring the skill prerequisites of Cruise into line with the gunnery skill trees. But, given that the missile skill tree is a lot longer than each gunnery skill tree, while also lacking any transferable skills, you'd have to tweak the missile skill tree elsewhere. And that might remove some diversity from Eve...
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Red zeon
Caldari
Shades Corp
The OSS
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:12:00 -
[59]
missiles got something called explotion velocity
witch is about 500ms on cruise, that is prob what theyr gonna change
if you fly 600ms you get dmg reduction,
either they will nerf the formula how dmg drops after exeeding the explotion velocity, or lower the explotion velocity.
thats my bet,
also 1more point, amarr gallente minmatar has allways been pvp races where caldari has been ratter race,
also amar tracking with lasers will own nano and caldari ships in general i think.
if you want justice, then missile nerf should wait aslong as it did for nano nerf.
you should be very happy missile nerf (suppose) comes same time as nano nerf.
everyone allmost says caldari is at bottom of pvp, why shouldnt they be best at pve? name 1 reason
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Lili Lu
Victory Not Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 16:24:00 -
[60]
Yes, the nano nerf has exposed how the game is marginally caldari online and would definitely become caldari online if no other changes were made in conjunction with the nano nerf.
Too many players imo start Caldari to make easy PVE money with drakes and then ravens. Why, not just because of the PVE missile advantages already listed in this thread, but because the overpowered passive shield tank on the drake can survive level 4 missions with comparatively little sp investment. And then those relatively newb players decide they want to complete level 4s faster, so they upgrade to the cruise raven that can be fit, albeit expensively, with a similarly overpowered active tank.
Then those PVE players decide to try PVP in their ravens and drakes WITH THE SAME FITTINGS. OMGWTF my Caldari ships can't PVP. I always survive PVE missions, but now this PVP is not fair. My missiles take forever to reach the target, my overpowered shield tank leaves me no mid slots to tackle, and what's this if i get primaried my passive tank drake lasts longer than any other ship but i still die in the end WHAAAAAAAA
Caldari players you have PVP options !!!!! Examples - The Cerb is a missile PVP force to be reckoned with. You have turret boats too! For example, take the Rokh. The Rokh is the longest range sniper! You may even be able to use higher damage ammo at lesser sniper ranges compared to other rail boats! Also, try dropping one rediculously easy to fit LSE on your Drake for a point! Learn what every other race ship has to learn for close range combat, you have to make some sacrifices in tank to fit for close range gank. Damage mods go in low slots, that means less tank for armor, yeah the few mid slots are free for tackle. Similar tradeoff with Caldari ships, you sacrifice tank to fit tackle in the mids, but little sacrifice to fitting the low slot damage mods. And learn that PVP is about getting blown up sometimes! Only PVE is predictable and minimally risky for getting blown up.
Well, yeah this is a bit of a troll reply, because no matter how i say it Caldari centric players will flame. So here's my disclaimer - I have 3 accounts, one flys Minmatar and Amarr, another flys Gallente and a little Caldari, and the last so far flys Caldari only. I've used every class of weapons in the game, light to heavy and sentry drones, small rail projectile and laser to large, and rockets to cruise and torp, every ew in the game (i'll leave the caldari supremacy in ew out of this thread  ) The only class of ships i haven't flown are dictors and caps. Caldari is far from the weakest or hardest to train in every category, in fact it is often the strongest and easiest.
So yeah, I agree with the OP and see this missile rebalancing due to the nano-nerf as much needed balancing. Some of the Caldari centric players need to learn a harsh CCP/eve lesson. It pays to have every character train two races of ships. Sooner or later the nerf bat hits your race. And I have whined just like you when I was initially an Amarr-centric player. Boy did I whine (and I still whine  ). But after 2 yrs+ of playing you realize, there is a cycle to the nerf/buff bat in this game. Best to have a fallback race to fly if you detest what CCP has/is going to do to your favorite race of ships, or suck it up and make the best with what's left.
Cladari will be fine even if missiles get nerfed. Still the best ewar, still rediculous tanks, still the longest range gun snipers. And PVE will become more of a challenge, which is a good thing. Just be glad you didn't have to start out your level 3 careers in a Prophecy or Cyclone (no Harbingers or Hurricanes existed) or Level 4s in the old Apoc Things will be ok even if they will no longer be easy mode.
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