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Reven Cordelle
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 31/07/2008 10:51:53 Yes yes, Reven hit ctrl+enter by accident. Fail.
Whatever happened to "If you can't beat them, join them".
In a few years time everything will be so balanced that people will only fly different ships because they look different.
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Stormking
Wartime Piratical Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.31 10:50:00 -
[2]
So you do understand?
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.07.31 11:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Stormking So you do understand?
Term "oOverpowered" is not about some people winning more than other people.
Term "overpoewered" relates to system of the game. When some combination becomes so dominant that none other tactic or combination of tactics can be more efficient with same investment of player's efforts (not ISK!), it becomes overpowered in relation to everything else.
Game becomes bi-polar, you are using OPed tactic, or you're trying to counter it. This should not be the case.
A principle of rock-paper-scissors (not necessarily three) have to be present for the game to be challenging and multi-faceted, at least it surely has to be present in MMOG.
To make it even shorter, THERE ALWAYS SHOULD BE MULTIPLE TACTICS/SETUPS/METHODS TO KILL YOU, NO MATTER WHICH OF THEM YOU EMPLOY CURRENTLY YOURSELF. This is less strict for groups of players (a group of people should be significantly more capable than just a sum of them), but is an absolute requirement for an individual.
There was a tendency with high-speed ships to fall off this rule - they were sturdy enough to hold against lower class weapons, avoid larger class weapons and very efficiently speed and sturdiness to avoid same class of weapons. They were also carrying enough offensive capabilities to engage each of the classes.
Thus, there were very limited amount of tactics that could be set against them.
And so, they are going to get nerfed. Speed in particular and mobility in general will become one of the tactics one can employ, which will be vulnerable to many things, unless supported by other mechanics.
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Juleko
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:04:00 -
[4]
As a relative noob I think the problem with the whole nano thing was two-fold.
On the one hand the difference two nano-fits for the same ship - one T2 and the other officer/snake - was massive. In other areas of the game officer modules give an edge but you're only talking about small percentages. You can be 90-95% as competitive running missions in a T2 fit as a deadspace/officer one, for example.
Contrast this with the nano situation, where officer/snake-fit Crows go 20km/sec and the T2-fit variants do half that, it's too far out of whack.
Secondly, the other argument is that why should everyone else have to fly a specific counter-ship to deal with a single aggressor who can deaggress at will?
The thing I think people tend to forget about nano***gotry is that if it didn't work so effectively then why did so many people gravitate towards it? If it was apparently so easy to counter - why did Polys, Snakes and the common nano'ed ships fetch such high premiums? Pro-nano people are quick to point out how many contrived counters there are to their setups whilst conveniently avoiding the question of "if its so dangerous to fly nano ships, why does everyone do it?"
The fact, of course, is that the cookie-cutter nano'd ships did have all of the perks, with the only limiting factor being how much ISK you had to spend. As a bootnote you know something is overpowered when people start saying "if I spend 3 bil on snakes I should be nearly invulnerable".
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle In a few years time everything will be so balanced that people will only fly different ships because they look different.
Ah but the case isn't about that, it's about accomodating each and evey playstyle(speed, tank, FPS, etc) so that all are as viable in combat
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.31 12:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle Whatever happened to "If you can't beat them, join them".
In a few years time everything will be so balanced that people will only fly different ships because they look different.
So you want everyone to fly the same ships right now bacause they are overpowered... ------------------------------------------
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Raging Negotiator
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:01:00 -
[7]
why do people whine about whine?
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Primnproper
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle Whatever happened to "If you can't beat them, join them".
Couldn't agree more mate
What I don't understand is why people didn't start always having one minny recon in each of there gangs this would have meant that nano was never effective and therefore people would have stopped flying it, without a nerf and without ruining the only fun bit of this game that was left.
Instead everyone came to the forums and admitted loudly and publically that they fail at eve and they need it to be changed so that they don't keep losing...
And then CCP listened |
Karanth
Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.07.31 13:19:00 -
[9]
Because whining about overpowered generates 37% more tears than whining about the underpowered.
Warp Speed skill needed! |
Jack Rowanburn
Demon Theory OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.31 14:51:00 -
[10]
Because people want to fly what they choose to fly. The whining masses don't want to adapt or fly anything other than whatever ship/fit they like the look of or prefer for whatever personal reasons. They just want to have the game altered instead. ------------- Insert Sig Here |
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Tippia
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:09:00 -
[11]
It was ignored because it doesn't apply to game balancing, especially in you strive for diversity and rock-paper-scissors gameplay.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle
In a few years time everything will be so balanced that people will only fly different ships because they look different.
Balanced does not mean equal. CCP's intent with balancing is to make all ships relevant, to give them all a role to play in the game. In fact, their intent with balancing is exactly the opposite of what you suggest; it is to make the different ships MORE than just a new look.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.07.31 16:43:00 -
[13]
the problem is the way the engine handled high speeds and the way the speed in general was done in the game was broken.
this part of the game was done WAY before polycarb rigs existed.
polycarbs broke the game more than any module since beta.
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
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Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:03:00 -
[14]
One of the things I learned from the MMOs I played before Eve is training / leveling / skilling / whatever for FOTM is an exercise in foolishness - it ALWAYS gets nerfed, and the longer the current FOTM goes on the harder the nerfbat hits when it comes.
So instead I play what I enjoy. Someday my turn for FOTM will roll around and I'll certainly enjoy it while it lasts but I won't be crying when its my turn to get nerfed (which will in reality just put me back how I was before). ---
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:04:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2008 17:04:38
Originally by: Mankirks Wife One of the things I learned from the MMOs I played before Eve is training / leveling / skilling / whatever for FOTM is an exercise in foolishness - it ALWAYS gets nerfed, and the longer the current FOTM goes on the harder the nerfbat hits when it comes.
So instead I play what I enjoy. Someday my turn for FOTM will roll around and I'll certainly enjoy it while it lasts but I won't be crying when its my turn to get nerfed (which will in reality just put me back how I was before).
Train all races and you can always fly FOTM.
In a game like Eve where its actually possible to "be" all races, take advantage of it.
---
Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
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Rumblehouse
Grimm Aerospace
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Posted - 2008.07.31 17:23:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Rumblehouse on 31/07/2008 17:23:19
Originally by: Reven Cordelle Whatever happened to "If you can't beat them, join them".
I believe most players (or at least a large enough majority to catch CCP's attention) did exactly that, which is why CCP is making changes.
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:20:00 -
[17]
Why is game balance so hard to understand.
Do you think it's lame that you get the same set of pieces as your opponent in chess?
If something is so overpowered that everybody and his brother copies the setup then it's time to take the "over" out. Still leaves powered.
Everytime CCP fixes a balancing problem it's the same avalanche of whines from people who got used to their super-efficient setups.
That's like a chess player whining about having to use the same set of pieces as the opponent instead of being using towers instead of pawns. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
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Matrixcvd
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: NeoTheo the problem is the way the engine handled high speeds and the way the speed in general was done in the game was broken.
this part of the game was done WAY before polycarb rigs existed.
polycarbs broke the game more than any module since beta.
25k/s ships made combat exceptionally difficult, nothing broke the game.
HACs going 3.5-7k/s are perfectly fine. DUMB DEV NOZH just wants to completely alter PVP combat in eve because low isk/low SP/ low experience pilots of complained about nanohacs which take high SP/relatively high isk/lots of experience.
Basically Hello Kitty Online is moar favorable to a larger group of mindless lemmings than actual EVE combat.... so you get proposed changes like the current one, packaged up with a lot of lies, misconceptions, stupidity and failsauce thrown in for dressing
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.31 18:36:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
25k/s ships made combat exceptionally difficult, nothing broke the game.
HACs going 3.5-7k/s are perfectly fine. DUMB DEV NOZH just wants to completely alter PVP combat in eve because low isk/low SP/ low experience pilots of complained about nanohacs which take high SP/relatively high isk/lots of experience.
Basically Hello Kitty Online is moar favorable to a larger group of mindless lemmings than actual EVE combat.... so you get proposed changes like the current one, packaged up with a lot of lies, misconceptions, stupidity and failsauce thrown in for dressing
Well, there's always WOW...
Can I have your stuff when you rage quit?
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Bai ZongTong
The Revolutionary Guard
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Posted - 2008.08.01 05:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Karanth Because whining about overpowered generates 37% more tears than whining about the underpowered.
citation? --- Want some YARRHHHS? The Revolutionary Guard Pirate Corp Looking for Members Uncensored KB |
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.08.01 06:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Matrixcvd HACs going 3.5-7k/s are perfectly fine.
No, they are not. Have you even read the blog? Do you even PvP?
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.01 06:19:00 -
[22]
let me guess, bob is using nano ships for their max damage campaign to take down poses
and if not, why didn't RA come pwn bobs battleship fleet with their nano fleet?
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.01 06:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Originally by: Matrixcvd HACs going 3.5-7k/s are perfectly fine.
No, they are not. Have you even read the blog? Do you even PvP?
some of our guys have been killed by some of your nano guys, and I'm not here to complain
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.01 06:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Matrixcvd
25k/s ships made combat exceptionally difficult, nothing broke the game.
HACs going 3.5-7k/s are perfectly fine. DUMB DEV NOZH just wants to completely alter PVP combat in eve because low isk/low SP/ low experience pilots of complained about nanohacs which take high SP/relatively high isk/lots of experience.
Basically Hello Kitty Online is moar favorable to a larger group of mindless lemmings than actual EVE combat.... so you get proposed changes like the current one, packaged up with a lot of lies, misconceptions, stupidity and failsauce thrown in for dressing
Well, there's always WOW...
Can I have your stuff when you rage quit?
heh, he will probably still be kicking your ass and you will still probably be whining on the forums about how he did it.
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Mulduni Atakama
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.01 06:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Juleko As a relative noob I think the problem with the whole nano thing was two-fold. Pro-nano people are quick to point out how many contrived counters there are to their setups whilst conveniently avoiding the question of "if its so dangerous to fly nano ships, why does everyone do it?"
Because the other crowd (that'd be the targets) mostly ignore every and all viable tactic there is to counter ships going fast, thus it's not really that dangerous. That however, isn't a problem with the nano setups, it's PEBKAC. Agreeably, drone or missiles boats going 10-15-20km/s is a problem, because A) they can orbit at or very near neut range and are horribly hard to catch, and B) suffer no penalties to DPS because of their trackless weapons, however - this does not apply to ALL nano setups, such as say, a reasonably T2 Vagabond going 5-6km/s.
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Andracin
Free Galactic Enterprises Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.08.01 07:05:00 -
[26]
I have played this game since 2006 and have watched all sorts of ship setups and FOTM combat tactics come and go. Being one of the speedy HAC/webbing reocn minmatar pilots who is getting hit by the nerf stick really doesn't bother me except Im stuck with half a billion of ships that don't go outrageously fast anymore. It will take time, I will still fly my minmatar hacs and recons, develop new setups and tactics and do just fine killing people. Thinking outside the box on setups has always been one of my favorite things about this game. I think the real lemmings are not the carebears who cried about their milk getting spilled but the pilots who are going to die because they can't adapt to the changing world of non nano's.
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Tranzen
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Posted - 2008.08.01 07:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Reven Cordelle Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 31/07/2008 10:51:53 Yes yes, Reven hit ctrl+enter by accident. Fail.
Whatever happened to "If you can't beat them, join them".
In a few years time everything will be so balanced that people will only fly different ships because they look different.
And the alternative of not balancing = everyone flying the -same- ship/fitting because it's better in all situations than every other one.
I choose balance. At least then I can choose what the ship looks like.
Use logic. Don't make posts just because you're bored and want to start a 6 page flame thread of people screaming "omg scrubs!" without even knowing what a scrub is.
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Pedro Snachez
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.01 07:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Primnproper
Originally by: Reven Cordelle Whatever happened to "If you can't beat them, join them".
Couldn't agree more mate
What I don't understand is why people didn't start always having one minny recon in each of there gangs this would have meant that nano was never effective and therefore people would have stopped flying it, without a nerf and without ruining the only fun bit of this game that was left.
Instead everyone came to the forums and admitted loudly and publically that they fail at eve and they need it to be changed so that they don't keep losing...
And then CCP listened
Or maybe it's because training Minmatar Cruiser V shouldn't be a requirement to have a chance at taking down nano ships (and because of their popularity, PvPing in general). I would love to take my Deimos out for a fight, but it's basically suicide these days. Out of all the vast variety of ships in Eve, there are only a handful that can be used effectively vs. nano ships. And that is why this nerf is fine by me.
I also find the "pro-nano camp" whine hilarious. Your =crazy delicious.
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