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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:13:00 -
[1]
I see a few grumbles here about the Falcon. I'm a Falcon pilot myself. I actually broadly like the 'electronic warfare' battle. However, I'm also cognisant that the Falcon, since it got boosted in jamming power, has become a real beast of an ewar ship, to the point where you don't see any of the alternatives on the field.
So, I'd like to share with you what I think is the problem, and how is one possible way of fixing it - where by 'fixing' I mean 'leaving it worth flying, but not in all ways obseleting everything else that does electronic warfare'.
The 'problem' with the Falcon, is not it's jamming power. Nor it's range. We know this, because the Rook has had exactly the same jamming power, and a little bit more range, since day one.
The problem is that both range and covert ops cloaking, do the same thing. To a certain extent, so do ECMs - Namely, give 'choice' to an engagement.
But here's the rub - with a COCD you have a choice to engage already. Being 150km away in a Falcon, gives you a second 'engagement/evasion' opportunity.
That's in addition to the fact that 150km away is stretching the realm of being able to return fire, which I'm not too fussed about - they're fragile as spit, so having some kind of positional damage mitigation isn't so bad.
So anyway, here's what I'd like to propose: Falcon's ECM range bonus gets dropped. Maybe it's locking range too (although that's perhaps a question of racial flavouring - all the force recons have 100km+ locking)
It's now operating at baseline optimals of around 100km with racials, and ... erm 80 or so, with multis - it'll be able to push those up a bit with range rigs, and it'll be able to use falloff. But between that and a sensor booster, the Falcon now ends up closer to the fight - it means it's more vulnerable to 'getting pounced' and more vulnerable to counter fire. 100km is significantly easier than 150.
At the same time, we blow the dust of the dampening ships. No changes to damping power - instead, the optimal on RSDs get changed such that they can function at 150-200 with good skills (I'm thinking 150km optimal, 40 or so falloff?). The idea being that you can use one of these as a 'sniper ewar' platform, if you try. But you cannot at the same time as using it's drone bay, tackle range, or damage output.
It's counters remain the same - you get close, and it's screwed, but the time to 'get close' is increased. It's also not very useful at protecting the close range fighters, where ECM is, at least partially. But it's more reliable at keeping long range fire off your long range ships.
The Rook maintains a niche - long range, high power jamming. The Falcon maintains a niche - closer range, but hey, it cloaks. And the Widow is now no longer just plain outclassed by the Falcon.
It's also worth bringing Arazus etc. along again, because they're actually able to act as 'long range suppression' - keeping a sniper or sniper-jammer off your bunch. But still brings some manner of contribution in form of tackle + dps, and hey damps aren't _totally_ worthless at closer ranges.
So, any thoughts? If you had a chance, what bonus would you replace the ECM optimal with? I'd be almost tempted to go for damage output - give the Falcon the 'hundred or so' dps that the other force recons get. Or perhaps scanres, or ... something else?
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.31 22:23:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Malcanis on 31/07/2008 22:24:03
What weapon are you envisaging the falcon fitting that works at 100Km? 250mm rails with Spike M? What kind of damage bonus would yield similar damage so 4 hammerhead II and 2 unbonused 250mm?
And if you're giving RSDs an optimal of 150-200, that makes the Arazu the undisputed king of long range EW - and it still has a covops cloak. And it's EW always works. So basically it can 100% of the time damp one ship per damp it fits. No math, no guessing, no luck: it just works.
Oh and it still has that sweet warp scram bonus. What nifty extra ability is the falcon getting now that it's EW is weaker than the Arazu's?
In essence your idea could be tl;dr as: Let's make the Arazu a Falcon with a drone bay, and the falcon into an arazu without a drone bay or warp scram bonus.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Noisrevbus
Caldari
Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:14:00 -
[3]
I don't dislike the general idea, but i dislike the presented implementation or your ideal behind it.
Let's repeat some of the most common arguments:
1. The range of ECM Recons may be a bit too far.
2. The range of ECM Recons is in essence their tank.
3. ECM Recons have ECM modules conflicting with their native tank.
4. ECM Recons only have bonuses to ECM, not dual bonuses like their peers.
5. ECM Recons lack dronebays and damage output.
To make them more similar to the other Recons you could:
1. Drop the range of ECM Recons similar to Damp recons.
2. Give ECM Recons a tank by...
3. Putting ECM modules on a slot that do not conflict with a native tank.
4. Give ECM Recons a secondary EWar role that apply within it's engagement range.
5. Give ECM Recons a dronebay that provide either increased damage or utility.
A Rook with a tank that actually operated within it's weapon range would be pretty interesting. Obviously the odd 7-10 slots devoted to make their ECM effective would need to drop considerably to achieve that. Those problems could aditionally be adressed by:
1. Scripting ECM modules and removing the racial / multi split.
2. Removing the ECM-enchancing lowslot amplifiers.
3. Completely rebalance ECM-strength thereafter.
4. Introducing a secondary EWar-bonus that provide further defensive capability.
I've seen comments about the Falcon being overpowered but the Rook being okay. Truth be told, i didn't see that many Rooks before the Falcon changes either. Back then they were a glorified Blackbird and far too expensive. Their cost/performance curve back then was hilarous and even now (when they've dropped like a stone to 50 odd million) their value is still quite debatable - simply because they lack survivability compared to many other Recons - despite their range (esp. since their offensive engagement range with those missile bonuses is shorter than their ECM range - which means engaging in a postion that would draw full use out of it's ship bonuses is even more hazardous).
Short said, Rooks have always been rare because they die too easily. I belive short range Falcons will too, cloak or not. Instead they'd need a larger defensive revamp if they were to give up range (which at it's core is not a bad suggestion, i might add).
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Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.07.31 23:43:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: James Lyrus
At the same time, we blow the dust of the dampening ships. No changes to damping power - instead, the optimal on RSDs get changed such that they can function at 150-200 with good skills (I'm thinking 150km optimal, 40 or so falloff?). The idea being that you can use one of these as a 'sniper ewar' platform, if you try. But you cannot at the same time as using it's drone bay, tackle range, or damage output.
So basically such an arazu will disable my falcon 100% of the time? I mean i certainly won't be able to jam it before it puts the damps on me given that you just reduced my jamming range by quite a bit.
Originally by: James Lyrus
It's counters remain the same - you get close, and it's screwed, but the time to 'get close' is increased.
Yeah its screwed except it can also deactivate the mwd of incoming tacklers and just burn away? Its drone bay which my falcon lacks will come in handy too with the new slowboating ceptors i guess.
Originally by: James Lyrus
It's also not very useful at protecting the close range fighters, where ECM is, at least partially. But it's more reliable at keeping long range fire off your long range ships.
Its overpowered. There is a reason why tds and damps don't do very good at fleet ranges. Unless you are in falloff they will work 100% of the time that is just wrong.
Originally by: James Lyrus
The Rook maintains a niche - long range, high power jamming. The Falcon maintains a niche - closer range, but hey, it cloaks. And the Widow is now no longer just plain outclassed by the Falcon.
The widow is a black ops ship. Its not meant to out-ewar a recon ship imho. And actually of all the blackops the widow appears to be the only one thats at least not complete garbage.
Originally by: James Lyrus
It's also worth bringing Arazus etc. along again, because they're actually able to act as 'long range suppression' - keeping a sniper or sniper-jammer off your bunch.
With the new changes arazus get boosted quite a bit. They certainly won't be useless before the next big nerf again.
Originally by: James Lyrus
I'd be almost tempted to go for damage output - give the Falcon the 'hundred or so' dps that the other force recons get. Or perhaps scanres, or ... something else?
I don't fly all recon ships. But i do know that if there is any difference at all then my curse does more damage than my pilgrim. My huginn does more damage than my rapier. And last but not least my rook does more damage then my falcon. So from where are you getting this number?
And as a falcon pilot myself one of my lows is always a 1600mm plate and with less range even more so. I flat out don't have grid to fit weapons. However if such a blatant nerf would happen probably a range bonus to missiles would be the most intuitive from what i think.
Sorry not trying to flame here or anything. I just don't think its a good idea. Especially that part about damps.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.08.01 04:16:00 -
[5]
I've posted time and again what I believe the problem is, so here is the short version.
The problem is NOT that the falcon is SO good - its the fact that the other recons are weak. All EWAR has counters, and of them ECCM is probably the most effective - but by the same token it's also the ONLY one of the counter ewar modules that provides no real tangible (I don't count being harder to probe out as tangible benefit) benefit when no jammers are trying to shut you down.
As such I recommend the following:
ECCM as a module disappears and becomes a script for a sensor booster along with lock range and lock time - this would be the new counter ewar for ALL sensor based electronic attacks.
Tracking Computers/Enhancers have scripts added that increase explosion velocity/missile speed as well as the tracking speed/optimal range. Thus becomming the new counter weapon disruption module.
Dampners are boosted in terms of power. I originally advocted boosting the range as well but it's become apparent that doing BOTH would obselete the falcon and dilute the racial flavoring of the two recon classes. As an interesting note the Azaru CAN reach the falcon's base operating range (150km) with high enoug skills and rigs installed. If you want to play at the falcons 180km more usual operating range you have to invest in implants that I've never seen (Centurion I think they're called - something like that)
TD's are boosted to affect missile flight time and explosion velocity. Yes this makes the defender missile obscelete but in two years of slinging missiles at people I've never seen ANYBODY but a rat use defenders.
I'm sorry about the minmatar - as the ONLY race who'se ewar is offensive in nature It's difficult to figure out a solution for. Range would be one plausible solution but a better one would be that it hands out a basic "damage bonus" in lieu of or in additon to it's sig radius increase. Yes this is more of a boost to caldari PVE players so I don't like the solution much myself but it would inarbuably make that painter bonus useful enough to actually fit painters on those minnie recons (and maybe allow for the return of that coveted "alpha strike")
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Falcon Troy
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.01 04:29:00 -
[6]
So I'm assuming since everyone got their "Nerf Nano" pleas answered that Falcons and ECM have become the new whine?
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Hai. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.08.01 04:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Falcon Troy
So I'm assuming since everyone got their "Nerf Nano" pleas answered that Falcons and ECM have become the new whine?
Very much so. It seems that all gangs are composed of at least 90% falcons and PvP nowadays is just them ECMing each other at 200Km until one side has to go make dinner.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Gabriel Virtus
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Posted - 2008.08.01 05:04:00 -
[8]
Frankly, Anyone who tries to claim that the Falcon is not overpowered... all I have to do is point to the amount of people that fly them and then to the people who fly EVERY OTHER RECON. Its pretty obvious that they are overpowered. There is NO counter to them whatsoever. Not only can they stay far enough away to avoid being locked by sniper ships, but can perma jam the sniper ships easily and cloak.
The OP has some interesting suggestions to fix the falcon that I think would work well to balance out the recons. Currently falcon is so overpowered everyone else leaves the other recons in mothballs and trains for the falcon. Make the game diverse again. Make the falcon touchable.
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MalVortex
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.01 06:39:00 -
[9]
Change a damp to work at sniping range and you just made a guaranteed, instant perma-lockdown on that ship in long range fights. Halving (or more) your lockrange at 150km is realistically impossible to make up for, and thats just one damp. Theres a reason damps don't have that range. ECM at least wont have a 1:1 module effectiveness versus a battleship, battlecruiser, most hacs, or any recons. A Lachesis would knock out 6-7 ships of a sniper fight every time, guaranteed.
Similiarly, the ECM range change would destroy the Falcon. 100km is *nothing* for a ship with that little HP. It can and would get one volleyed in most fleet fights, and even with the speed nerf an interceptor would be on it before it could bat an eye. Hell, 80km isn't far enough to be out of range of cruiser weapons. It would destroy the Falcon.
The real story? ECM is fine. The Falcon didn't need the buff it got, and it could just as easily lose it w/o worry. The Damp nerf was needed, but the Recons never got counter boosted. This change would simply replace the whines from Falcons to Arazu. The Rook would still terrorize the weak and unsuspecting w/ ECM.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.08.01 07:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Falcon Troy
So I'm assuming since everyone got their "Nerf Nano" pleas answered that Falcons and ECM have become the new whine?
Very much so. It seems that all gangs are composed of at least 90% falcons and PvP nowadays is just them ECMing each other at 200Km until one side has to go make dinner.
I hate it so much when my parents make me go set the table, and they said I can't use their credit card for a week, HOW DO I GET ISK NOW?!?!?!??! at least there wont be any more nanos soon!
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BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.01 07:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I've posted time and again what I believe the problem is, so here is the short version.
The problem is NOT that the falcon is SO good - its the fact that the other recons are weak. All EWAR has counters, and of them ECCM is probably the most effective - but by the same token it's also the ONLY one of the counter ewar modules that provides no real tangible (I don't count being harder to probe out as tangible benefit) benefit when no jammers are trying to shut you down.
As such I recommend the following:
ECCM as a module disappears and becomes a script for a sensor booster along with lock range and lock time - this would be the new counter ewar for ALL sensor based electronic attacks.
Tracking Computers/Enhancers have scripts added that increase explosion velocity/missile speed as well as the tracking speed/optimal range. Thus becomming the new counter weapon disruption module.
Dampners are boosted in terms of power. I originally advocted boosting the range as well but it's become apparent that doing BOTH would obselete the falcon and dilute the racial flavoring of the two recon classes. As an interesting note the Azaru CAN reach the falcon's base operating range (150km) with high enoug skills and rigs installed. If you want to play at the falcons 180km more usual operating range you have to invest in implants that I've never seen (Centurion I think they're called - something like that)
TD's are boosted to affect missile flight time and explosion velocity. Yes this makes the defender missile obscelete but in two years of slinging missiles at people I've never seen ANYBODY but a rat use defenders.
I'm sorry about the minmatar - as the ONLY race who'se ewar is offensive in nature It's difficult to figure out a solution for. Range would be one plausible solution but a better one would be that it hands out a basic "damage bonus" in lieu of or in additon to it's sig radius increase. Yes this is more of a boost to caldari PVE players so I don't like the solution much myself but it would inarbuably make that painter bonus useful enough to actually fit painters on those minnie recons (and maybe allow for the return of that coveted "alpha strike")
this
poudly annoying fc's since 2007
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=828123
caldari drone boat enthusiast |
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