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Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.03.23 15:28:00 -
[121] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Perihelion Olenard wrote:FT Diomedes wrote: I like this idea a lot. It strikes me that all BCs should use large weapons.
What would be the point of the brutix, ferox, prophecy, harbinger, cyclone, and hurricane, then? The tier 3 would obsolete them all if they all became glass cannons with large weapons. The myrmidon would field five ogres again in addition to large hybrids and the drake would fire torpedoes or cruise missiles; since they have different weapon platforms they wouldn't be obsoleted. That's like saying that the Abaddon obsoletes the Armageddon, or that the Tempest is useless because the Maelstrom is just better. Each ship is good at something different, and there is enough variety in roles that the ships all having the same gun size can still result in variety. That said, a change like this would hugely limit the effectiveness of battlecruisers. It gives them a nice niche, but I'm not sure it's that good an idea. Personally, I would love it. I fly frigates. Tier 3 BCs as they are are wonderful fodder, and if they had smaller/weaker versions, those would be even more fun to kill.
But he likes the idea that all the BCs should have large weapons like the tier 3. Why fly a lower tier of the same thing that has less slots and firepower (the exception being a different weapon platform)?
Each battleship has it's own role next to the other battleships in their own race. That's obvious from their ship bonuses. However, the guy I quoted would like all BCs to the be the same with large weapons and probably be a glass cannon. IMO, that would be bad. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
46
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Posted - 2012.03.23 18:52:00 -
[122] - Quote
Drop all damage bonuses on the Tier 3 BC Give all BC around 25% more mass.
Fixed http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1126
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Posted - 2012.03.23 19:11:00 -
[123] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Drop all damage bonuses on the Tier 3 BC Give all BC around 25% more mass.
Fixed
Uh, that is not "fixed". That is "stupid".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Shrike Arghast
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.03.23 21:25:00 -
[124] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:But he likes the idea that all the BCs should have large weapons like the tier 3. Why fly a lower tier of the same thing that has less slots and firepower (the exception being a different weapon platform)?
Each battleship has it's own role next to the other battleships in their own race.
Is there any reason the other two BCs for a race couldn't have similar bonuses? The problem with T1 & T2 BCs right now is that their 'mission' in combat is so non-specific and broad that they eat the cruisers' entire job. Nobody would argue with a battleship that the point of having them in EVE is so they can do everything BCs do but better, but that is precisely the relationship that BCs have with cruisers: anything you can do, I can do better, stronger, harder... and the result is, obviously, that an entire class of ships that were once a really big staple of combat situations in EVE have essentially been relegated to the dustbin of history.
If you gave all BC's battleship-sized weapons and made their bonuses (and, as a result, roles in combat) different, the the argument for 'why to fly one' would be the same reason one might choose a Geddon over and Apoc; cheaper, different, situationally better. That's a much better situation than the 'ultimate supercruiser derp-ships' that we have today. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1131
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Posted - 2012.03.23 21:30:00 -
[125] - Quote
The problem with T1 and T2 BCs is that T1 cruisers are overwhelmingly complete ****. There's no reason to so dramatically modify the game by making all BCs just like Tier 3s.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2012.03.23 21:52:00 -
[126] - Quote
Maybe we should put large weapons on cruisers as well as all the BCs. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1132
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Posted - 2012.03.23 21:58:00 -
[127] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Maybe we should put large weapons on cruisers as well as all the BCs.
We did. They're called Tier 3 Battlecruisers.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jerick Ludhowe
Purification of Eden XIN DOA'ED
57
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Posted - 2012.03.23 22:25:00 -
[128] - Quote
Problem has far more to do with relative cost of fitting post insurance than it does with the actual performance of the cruisers.
As stated previously in this thread a rigged and well fitted cruisers currently costs only a few mil less than Similarly fit BC after insurance pay outs. The solution is to increase the relative fitting cost between cruisers and bcs and I believe the best solution lies in the size of rigs. Changing cruisers to use small rigs could commonly save 8+ mil per hull making them easily 15 mil cheaper than a BC after mods, rigs, insurance. A small increase to speed and slight reduction to sig is also probably needed. |
Bouh Revetoile
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.03.24 00:20:00 -
[129] - Quote
I really think tier 1 and 2 BC are overpowered in regards to their ehp/mass and fitting Infact, I made some comparisons between BC and cruisers, and between destroyers and frigates
BC speed - cruiser speed ~= dessy speed - frig spee OK (mean that minmatar BC/dessy have same base speed than Caldari cruiser/frig respectively; others are between cruiser speed += 15-20% BC spee frig speed += 20-30% dessy spee
BC mass += 10-20% cruiser mas dessy mass += 50% frig mas
cruiser ti3 hp ~= 1600* BC ti1 hp ~= 4200* BC ti2 have a little more except the Drake which earn a little more than everyone over it's ti1 counterparts (but that put him in line with other BC ti2, because Ferox had a little less than it's counterparts BC hp += 250% cruiser h dessy hp ~= 700* frig ti4 hp ~= 400* dessy hp += 75% frig h
(stats of evelopedia this month IMO, mass and speed variation of BC is absolutely not correlated to their ehp/slot increase. Moreover, mass and speed variation of BC can be completely overcome by modules to reach the base stats of cruisers, and the slot increase allow them to do it The additional slots spread between high, mid and lows also allow them to be simply better than cruiser at cruising space. Infact, the problem of ti1 and 2 BC is that they are only super cruisers with ganglink option bonus
Looking at the stats, I even thought the dev who disigned them was just looking to make fleet cruisers without thinking to anything else
Considering the fitting, BC are a lot simpler to fit than any other ship in the game. On any ship except BC, you have to make a choice between your guns or your tank. BC take both
Why BC don't follow the same scheme than destroyers
I think they have too many of something: ehp, manoeuverability or firepower. |
Kaikka Carel
White syndicate BattleStar Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.03.24 05:25:00 -
[130] - Quote
@Bouh Revetoile yes you're right in that mass and speed do not correlate the same way as other good things do. But an armored Tempest already flies as fast or even faster than an armored BC. Nerfing BC's speed and mass would be just wrong. |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1141
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Posted - 2012.03.24 05:38:00 -
[131] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote: ... I think they have too many of something: ehp, manoeuverability or firepower.
Eve isn't a game played in a spreadsheet, and even if it were there's a lot of stuff missing from your comparison. The core problem you're observing is that T1 cruisers are kinda crap when trying to occupy a brawler role. I'm not sure that's a problem.
-Liang
Ed: And before you go off on me, I've already agreed that Tier 1/2 BCs could use some small mobility adjustments. But people are way underestimating the advantages of cruiser hulls. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cyrina Manto
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
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Posted - 2012.03.24 09:41:00 -
[132] - Quote
Despite it being a troll fit, I enjoyed bait prophecies alot
Epic EHP, crap mobility, crap dps. Even had one that could do logistics quite well as well
BC's have many possible uses, it just seems that people only want to go with FOTM (flavor of the past two years now it seems). My main issue with the BC class is that they have versatility in spades, and have no glaring drawbacks compared to HACs. HACs just dont have enough benefit over t2 BCs to warrant the cost (in most cases)
I fly Gallente, and a Myrm is just better than an Ishtar or Deimos 90% of the time. It has an astronomical tank and the DPS is similar, just more balanced between drones and guns. Its also only ~1/3 the cost. |
lanyaie
1
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Posted - 2012.03.24 11:14:00 -
[133] - Quote
If they nerf the cane I want all the DAMN SP i spent into maxing it out back and spend that on training for my hulk. I dont post often, but when I do i'm probably trolling you |
Kn1v3s 999
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
27
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Posted - 2012.03.24 16:32:00 -
[134] - Quote
Answer to the OP: Yes, they are |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.05.11 21:34:00 -
[135] - Quote
They own most cruisers and can neut most frigates to uselessness (and then kill them as well). They insta-pop destroyer hulls.
They can escape almost all unfavorable encounters (battleships) and hold their own long enough to do so.
They are hard to hit by caps and supercaps
No other ship class is this versatile |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
436
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Posted - 2012.05.12 01:33:00 -
[136] - Quote
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:
They are hard to hit by caps and supercaps
Not even remotely close to true. |
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2012.05.12 02:43:00 -
[137] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:
They are hard to hit by caps and supercaps
Not even remotely close to true.
You're right, you could be a noob cane pilot and not be in motion |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
6
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Posted - 2012.05.12 04:31:00 -
[138] - Quote
It's less of an issue with actual BC balance and more of an issue with the cost risk/reward issues when comparing a t2 ship to an insured t1 ship. |
Majuan Shuo
Sons Of 0din
18
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Posted - 2012.05.12 04:43:00 -
[139] - Quote
They are simply the most effective ship at the moment, nothing to worry about.
Also:
Why does reheated pizza taste EXTRA greasy?
Seriously: did the grease from last night's fresh pizza have funky greasy sex and have grease babies by the time I reheated it the next morning? G-R-O-S-S "I believe the Winter expansion needs to be a huge success, and so they are giving us ice cream, and cake, and ice cream cake, and pizza, and hookers, and blow, and pizza. Any and everything they think players want and they can do by winter, they will stuff into this expansion." |
Baneken
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
122
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Posted - 2012.05.12 08:34:00 -
[140] - Quote
as for how good are T1 cruisers ? Obviously so good that Raiden needs 2 carriers (in undock) and a gang of baddons (10+) to kill a gang of 15 thoraxes.
And as far as T3 BC's go they hit hard and die as fast, hell my thorax yesterday had more EHP then the Talos that I usually fly. |
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Jerick Ludhowe
Wraiths of Abaddon Byzantine Empire
73
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Posted - 2012.05.12 12:41:00 -
[141] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: And before you go off on me, I've already agreed that Tier 1/2 BCs could use some small mobility adjustments. But people are way underestimating the advantages of cruiser hulls.
By the look of this quote i'd say that some people are way overestimating their advantages. Tech 1 cruisers other than maybe the rupture are more or less god awful when looking at training time investment and overall isk investment vs a bc...
As for the whole "this game is not played in a spreadsheet" bit. Kind of amusing considering you're one of the most famous eft warriors on these forums. Nice little case of pot kettle black Either way, no amount of "not playing in spread sheets" is going to reduce relative fitting cost of cruisers or make up for the 4ish slot deficit they have compared to bcs that allow for bcs to lock faster, or fly faster through the use of seboos and nanos while still retaining significant brawling advantages over cruisers.
t1 Cruisers need a buff, no ifs ands or buts about it.
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Ymmi Stenson
Aquila Crysaetos
0
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Posted - 2012.05.12 15:21:00 -
[142] - Quote
HACs are more mobile and have better resistances, but don-¦t have drones.
Give 25mb and 25m^3 for drones to all HACs and MWD cap bonus. |
wallenbergaren
University of Caille Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2012.05.12 16:52:00 -
[143] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:If the discussion is BS vs. BC then I would suggest new mods before recreating the wheel with BS. I'm thinking 3200mm plates or XLSE.
Most Battleships are too CPU constrained to take advantage of that extra lowslot they would get, but in principle I like the idea. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
402
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Posted - 2012.05.12 18:55:00 -
[144] - Quote
Tr3 Battlecruisers shouldn't be able to fit all the largest battleship weapons without having to compromise (it's easier to make an Neutron-fit work on a Talos then on a Megathron) AND get the damage bonus on top of those EIGHT turrets as well. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
110
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Posted - 2012.05.12 22:15:00 -
[145] - Quote
Tech 3 killed the HAC. |
Jerick Ludhowe
Wraiths of Abaddon Byzantine Empire
74
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Posted - 2012.05.12 23:03:00 -
[146] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Tech 3 killed the HAC.
Well when you implement a class of ship with more slots, more bonuses, better bonuses, better fittings, and 3 rigs instead of 2... on top of the same t2 resists... You usually end up with a ship far better than the other
What's sad is that tech 3 cruisers are not suppose to be specialized ships... This more or less holds true when comparing them to all other t2 cruisers other than hacs. For some reason a t2 combat cruiser is not defined as a specialized ship by this fail logic and leads to t3s being better than the specialized combat cruisers at combat.
Hell, t3 cruisers surpass field commands. Compare tengu to nighthawk, or legion to absolution. They are both better at being what those field commands are designed for than the field commands themselves. At least the Astarte and Sleipnir are better gankers than their races t3 so they are better at something .
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Captain Campion
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
0
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Posted - 2012.05.13 11:56:00 -
[147] - Quote
Prophecy is one of the worst ships in the game.
Harbinger is good, but it's much more expensive than an Omen - and not particularly worth it. It's also similarly priced to a Navy Omen, which means there are two ships for the same role.
The Zealot's bang-for-buck is currently dead as it now costs about 3x as much as a Navy Omen.
Do I think BCs are overpowered? No not really. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
966
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Posted - 2012.05.13 19:28:00 -
[148] - Quote
Captain Campion wrote:Prophecy is one of the worst ships in the game.
Harbinger is good, but it's much more expensive than an Omen - and not particularly worth it. It's also similarly priced to a Navy Omen, which means there are two ships for the same role.
The Zealot's bang-for-buck is currently dead as it now costs about 3x as much as a Navy Omen.
Do I think BCs are overpowered? No not really. Harbinger is balanced, Prophecy is sort of underpowered. The issue people have is with the Drake/Hurricane and some of the other BCs. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
101
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Posted - 2012.05.13 21:53:00 -
[149] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Battlecruisers killed the HAC.
Fixed.
Tier 2 Battlecruisers obsolete close range HACs and now Tier 3 Battlecruisers obsolete long range sniping hacs.
The only exception is probably the vagabond. |
Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
27
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Posted - 2012.05.13 22:08:00 -
[150] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Hell, t3 cruisers surpass field commands. Compare tengu to nighthawk, or legion to absolution. They are both better at being what those field commands are designed for than the field commands themselves. At least the Astarte and Sleipnir are better gankers than their races t3 so they are better at something .
And when it comes to ganking, you're usually better off using a Tier 3 BC rather than a Tech 2.
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