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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.01 23:57:00 -
[1]
The creation of the CSM was supposed to be an interface point for interracting with the players, determining the player priorities and providing oversight of changes in the game. In reality it is a PR stunt, free trip to Iceland and an ego fluff for the members that were "elected" in a dubious process. As a player I don't see the value in the committee and don't want them feigning to speak for me. The fact that they seem to have 0 influence leads to the facade and thus the uselessness of the committee.
And while you are at it, stop making wide sweeping massive changes in the entire game balance based upon the whines of the 10% of the eve population willing to participate in this sewer of a forum. Most of the people whining should, in my opinion, stop posting and start learnign how to play, thinking tactically and recognizing that the game should not be boiled down to who has the biggest gun.
Thanks. We now return you to your regular whine and flame fest.
P.S. No, I am not a nano ship junkie, I'm rarely in nano ships so nice try on that one.
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jongalt
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:02:00 -
[2]
i think i know somebody that whines the loudest...
-jg.
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:05:00 -
[3]
As a player I don't see the value in your thread and don't want you feigning to speak for me. And while you are at it, stop making bad threads. The fact that your threads seem to have 0 influence leads to the facade and thus the uselessness of your thread.
Thanks. We now return you to your regular whine and flame thread.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:08:00 -
[4]
Rells: Please disband the Agony Empire. -------- Ideas for: Mining Ships |
Doc Fury
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:08:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Doc Fury on 02/08/2008 00:08:25 Actually (I am paraphrasing here) the CSM was originally supposed to fly to Iceland to dig into the soft and dark underbelly of CCP in the spirit of "transparency" so that stuff like the T20 incident didn't happen again.
Look what we got.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
DubanFP
Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:17:00 -
[6]
I agree with rells. He doesn't explain it quite as I did, but his views mirror my own. The CSM and forum whiners only represent the views of those who want to change EVE, but ignores the view of those who see what doesn't need to change. In the end it just winds up with many people asking for changes while the many who don't always want change aren't being represented. _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:18:00 -
[7]
I meant to vote abstain and then I forgot and didn't vote at all
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Rells on 02/08/2008 00:41:17
Originally by: DubanFP I agree with rells. He doesn't explain it quite as I did, but his views mirror my own. The CSM and forum whiners only represent the views of those who want to change EVE, but ignores the view of those who see what doesn't need to change. In the end it just winds up with many people asking for changes while the many who don't always want change aren't being represented.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:43:00 -
[9]
Rells: Please Disband Agony Empire
See, that had exactly as much impact as this thread. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:45:00 -
[10]
Once again I am going to point out that the nano-balance changes have absolutely nothing to do with forum whiners and as proof I offer 8+ months of live dev blogs and developer interviews stating that speed balance was on their agenda.
Unfortunately, instead of bringing up issues from the playerbase, the CSM candidates are ALL working towards their own selfish goals and not looking for the wealth and well-being of the entire EVE community. So the CSM fails like most poorly run government organizations in which they are not really held accountable to their constituents.
For example, has any CSM member brought ideas to different forums/websites and ask opinions of many players in game? No, CSM members instead put in the least amount of effort and simply post on Assembly Hall and ask their friends ingame and think that is enough research into an issue. Hell, most CSM members don't even post/read the forums and when they do, post short one-liners in which you can actually see how inept they are. CSM Bane posted a decent thread on AH lately, but that is the exception, not the rule sadly. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Abrazzar Rells: Please disband the Agony Empire.
10 points for failing to address the thread. 10 Bonus points for not even MENTIONING the content of the OP. 10 points for managing to post something that is not only pointless but stupid. 25 Bonus points for flamage and trollage ...
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Close but if you want to win the forums game you will need to make some assertion about the person that you know nothing about. Insulting one of their family members is also acceptable.
Dont worry, you will get the hang of it.
In the meantime the rest of us will talk about the topic at hand and resign ourselves to mediocrity when it comes to forum competitions.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Rells And while you are at it, stop making wide sweeping massive changes in the entire game balance based upon the whines of the 10% of the eve population willing to participate in this sewer of a forum.
Since this obviously includes the OP, nothing more really needs to be said. -
DesuSigs |
Ash Vincetti
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:56:00 -
[13]
I'm still waiting for the CSM reports on CCP internal processes... -----
free bree! |
Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ash Vincetti I'm still waiting for the CSM reports on CCP internal processes...
They discussed this in a thread over in the Jita Park Speaker's Corner actually. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Ash Vincetti
Decorum Inc Tygris Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.02 00:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Ash Vincetti I'm still waiting for the CSM reports on CCP internal processes...
They discussed this in a thread over in the Jita Park Speaker's Corner actually.
Shh. I'm enjoying my ignorance. :psyduck: -----
free bree! |
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:01:00 -
[16]
Finally an intelligent response! The fact that I don't completely agree doesn't mean it was a bad post. It was a good post. And so there is no misunderstanding, I am NOT being sarcastic.
Since you want to have an intelligent convo .. lets do it.
Originally by: Vaal Erit Once again I am going to point out that the nano-balance changes have absolutely nothing to do with forum whiners and as proof I offer 8+ months of live dev blogs and developer interviews stating that speed balance was on their agenda.
I disagree. It has been a really long and volumous whine. Ever since the days of the nanophoon people have complained about speed. The reality is that taken individually many of their changes make sense but ALL of them being thrown at the game at once is over the top and the results can only be extremely erratic. The outcome of these changes on the game as a whole simply CANT be predicted.
Originally by: Vaal Erit Unfortunately, instead of bringing up issues from the playerbase, the CSM candidates are ALL working towards their own selfish goals and not looking for the wealth and well-being of the entire EVE community. So the CSM fails like most poorly run government organizations in which they are not really held accountable to their constituents.
DING! (You know, that psychologically calibrated ding that was attuned to keep you playing crappy lesser games far too long?) You hit the nail on the head there. Hence, what is the point of the stupid committee.
Originally by: Vaal Erit For example, has any CSM member brought ideas to different forums/websites and ask opinions of many players in game? No, CSM members instead put in the least amount of effort and simply post on Assembly Hall and ask their friends ingame and think that is enough research into an issue. Hell, most CSM members don't even post/read the forums and when they do, post short one-liners in which you can actually see how inept they are. CSM Bane posted a decent thread on AH lately, but that is the exception, not the rule sadly.
And furthermore few of them play. Agony Empire is a small alliance but due to our activities in the game we are very well known and we have contacts all over Eve and in most alliances. (This is despite the fact that we shoot everyone ) At any rate, the people that play this game regularly rather than the forums, dont spend a lot of time, if any, in the forums. Other than answering newbie questions, most AGONY wouldnt be caught dead here (not by corp policy btw, its their choice). There is just no way that an elected person who is popular enough to be well known on the forums could even pretend to represent the interests of the eve players.
The reality is AGONY had no problem killing nano ships and we werent alone. There are a few abberations caused by implants, faction gear and so on but the solution to that is slow measured change, not dropping a huge balance shifting mamoth on the game.
At any rate the nano changes are a side issue. The UI problems and Jita solution havent been prioritized. The Corp UI is still a steaming pile of what you get when you havent cleaned out the chicken coup in 2 years. There are any number of problems and issues in the game on the hotplate of the players who are actually logged into the game more than the forums and NONE of them have been adressed.
The CSM is a complete and utter failure.
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 02/08/2008 01:00:39
Originally by: Rells And while you are at it, stop making wide sweeping massive changes in the entire game balance based upon the whines of the 10% of the eve population willing to participate in this sewer of a forum.
Since this obviously includes the OP, nothing more really needs to be said on that.
I am here RARELY. Note the words VERY RARELY. I answer newbie questions now and then and subject myself to the pain of this place when something motivates me significantly to do so, but I am, by far, not a regular. Id rather play eve.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:07:00 -
[18]
So, Rells, what do you feel this thread will accomplish? ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tarminic So, Rells, what do you feel this thread will accomplish?
Amuse me. Make me feel better. Not much more.
I am under not illusions that it will change the world.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:09:00 -
[20]
FIRST
It was obvious from the start that most of the CSM hulabaloo was just a PR stunt. Still, the idea of a CSM as a whole, even if it is mostly an image thing is a good one. Now, the implementation and the details, that's a bit off. The low voter turnover (I mean, come on, not even 10% of accounts voted) was pathetic, the ingame publicity for it was close to non-existant, there were far too many candidates (some of them completely unremarkable), the CSM meeting in Iceland should have been held closer to the end of the CSM lifecycle rather than so close to the start (and the "minutes of the meeting" were not even dissapointing, they were basically meaningless, a couple of devblogs could have said more) and so on and so forth.
Now... disband the CSM... what would be the point in that ? IF it's just a sand-in-the-eyes thingy, it really does no harm at all, afterall those money (for the "free trip") were spent out of the advertising budget anyway... so even if it has the least bit of a chance to actually solve something, ANYTHING at all, just keep it going.
SECOND
The changes live on SiSi right now are just horrendeous compared to the current situation. And this coming from a person (me) who actually does think there's something wrong with ship speeds today. Problem is, it's not ship speeds in general, it's SOME particular EXCEPTIONS from regular fits that are the source of the problem. So, instead of fixing the ones that are the problem, everything else was nerfed into submission. Gee, who had that bright idea first, I wonder. Besides, there will be tests, tweaks and reworks for about one month, get right on it and say how else would you prefer to solve the issues if not the way they are done on SiSi now. I know I have ideas, how about you ?
Still, you claim (paraphrasing) the change was "based on the whines of some of the small percentage of people who actually post here". I really have to wonder wether you're simply trolling or downright misinformed. Well, duuh, it was so damned obvious something WAS wrong, you didn't need any "whines on forum" to see it. The only difference was that the forum noise propelled it into a higher tier of urgency... nothing more, nothing less.
As for MY ideas on how things should have been handled (if you care, but I bet you don't)... the thread is linked in my sig, and it's a fairly old thread already (by forum standards, that is).
_
THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Faife
Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rells I am here RARELY. Note the words VERY RARELY. I answer newbie questions now and then and subject myself to the pain of this place when something motivates me significantly to do so, but I am, by far, not a regular. Id rather play eve.
shoot for rarer still. - -
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Faife
Originally by: Rells I am here RARELY. Note the words VERY RARELY. I answer newbie questions now and then and subject myself to the pain of this place when something motivates me significantly to do so, but I am, by far, not a regular. Id rather play eve.
shoot for rarer still.
Pithy, but not very original.
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Tarminic
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Tarminic So, Rells, what do you feel this thread will accomplish?
Amuse me. Make me feel better. Not much more.
I am under not illusions that it will change the world.
Well, in that case, I am left with surprisingly little to disagree with you on. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 02/08/2008 01:00:39
Originally by: Rells And while you are at it, stop making wide sweeping massive changes in the entire game balance based upon the whines of the 10% of the eve population willing to participate in this sewer of a forum.
Since this obviously includes the OP, nothing more really needs to be said on that.
I am here RARELY. Note the words VERY RARELY. I answer newbie questions now and then and subject myself to the pain of this place when something motivates me significantly to do so, but I am, by far, not a regular. Id rather play eve.
That just makes you less motivated than those who, for example, post braindead suicide ganking whines day after day after day.
Sure, the media we have to interact with CCP, the fora and the CSM, are both fairly crap. But, EVE can broadly be divided into those who do the best with what they have, and those who don't care enough to do so.
You know how you have no right to be ****ed off at the result of an election you didn't bother voting in? It's kind of like that. If the supposed 90% started posting, they'd completely overwhelm everything currently on the forum with what they chose to say. But they don't, so the limited control the playerbase have over EVE rests with the supposed 10% who do.
If you want CCP to disband the CSM because it is not effective, you may as well ask them to shut off the forums too, and cut the players off from the development process completely. This, of course, isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it is the logical conclusion of your suggestion. -
DesuSigs |
Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Akita T FIRST Still, you claim (paraphrasing) the change was "based on the whines of some of the small percentage of people who actually post here". I really have to wonder wether you're simply trolling or downright misinformed. Well, duuh, it was so damned obvious something WAS wrong, you didn't need any "whines on forum" to see it. The only difference was that the forum noise propelled it into a higher tier of urgency... nothing more, nothing less.
As for MY ideas on how things should have been handled (if you care, but I bet you don't)... the thread is linked in my sig, and it's a fairly old thread already (by forum standards, that is).
Well I dont agree with you completely but good post all the same.
I actually never saw mcuh wrong with speed ships except for the extreme examples such as the drake that was observed doing 9km/s. I feel that a series of small changes could have solved that issue without radically altering the balance of the game. Ideas that came to mind are things like ship class based nanofibers (separate one for each of the frigs, crusiers and BSes.) Other ideas would be to simply nerf the high cost faction gear that are the cornerstone of the problem. That faction gear is small in supply and wouldnt affect the eve base nearly as much.
In essence I would suggest small incremental shifts rather than massive nerfs across the board.
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kryptteacher
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:25:00 -
[26]
rells have you been able to test the proposed changes yet?
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Crumplecorn That just makes you less motivated than those who, for example, post braindead suicide ganking whines day after day after day.
Wait ... so I dont misunderstand ... you are saying I am less motivated because I would rather play the game then play forum wars?
Originally by: Crumplecorn Sure, the media we have to interact with CCP, the fora and the CSM, are both fairly crap. But, EVE can broadly be divided into those who do the best with what they have, and those who don't care enough to do so.
By design. There are other ways to interract. Program an in-game voting mechanism. Open up the bug tracking database to be public for anything not an exploit and allow players to see progress on an issue and vote on issues like in the Apache software foundation projects. They could design in-game mechanisms for gaining feedback that note you using a specific ship and ask you to participate in a survey about what needs to change iwth that ship. There are tons of ideas that dsimply havent happened.
Originally by: Crumplecorn You know how you have no right to be ****ed off at the result of an election you didn't bother voting in? It's kind of like that. If the supposed 90% started posting, they'd completely overwhelm everything currently on the forum with what they chose to say. But they don't, so the limited control the playerbase have over EVE rests with the supposed 10% who do.
I dont like participating in farces. And the notion that its good that people dont participate because it would overwhelm the system is vacuous.
Originally by: Crumplecorn If you want CCP to disband the CSM because it is not effective, you may as well ask them to shut off the forums too, and cut the players off from the development process completely. This, of course, isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it is the logical conclusion of your suggestion.
Although the forums have use for players connecting with players and answering quesitons, driving development from forum consensus is crazy. You cant proclaim a consensus on an issue with a quorum of 10%! Development should be driven by vision and goals and feedback needs to come from a source with significantly higher participation such as methods I mentioned above.
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: kryptteacher rells have you been able to test the proposed changes yet?
Yes. I and the rest of AGONY spend extensive time on SISI testing things. AF and Bomber changes are good. Recalibration for MWDs makes sense. The rest s over the top and damaging.
Interestingly one of the techniques AGONY uses to combat nano ships has just become much harder. Fishing (the process of killing interceptors and interdictors with tech 1 frigates) is MUCH more difficult now because of the web changes for example.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Crumplecorn That just makes you less motivated than those who, for example, post braindead suicide ganking whines day after day after day.
Wait ... so I dont misunderstand ... you are saying I am less motivated because I would rather play the game then play forum wars?
Less motivated to push your view, yes. Of course motivation alone does not define the validity of a viewpoint, but it does control its visibility.
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Crumplecorn Sure, the media we have to interact with CCP, the fora and the CSM, are both fairly crap. But, EVE can broadly be divided into those who do the best with what they have, and those who don't care enough to do so.
By design. There are other ways to interract. Program an in-game voting mechanism. Open up the bug tracking database to be public for anything not an exploit and allow players to see progress on an issue and vote on issues like in the Apache software foundation projects. They could design in-game mechanisms for gaining feedback that note you using a specific ship and ask you to participate in a survey about what needs to change iwth that ship. There are tons of ideas that dsimply havent happened.
And you have been pushing these ideas with the limited media we currently have I presume? Anyway, if CCP choose not to implement these, that is their decision. If CCP nerf player-dev interaction, either adapt and use what we have, or just accept whatever results.
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Crumplecorn You know how you have no right to be ****ed off at the result of an election you didn't bother voting in? It's kind of like that. If the supposed 90% started posting, they'd completely overwhelm everything currently on the forum with what they chose to say. But they don't, so the limited control the playerbase have over EVE rests with the supposed 10% who do.
I dont like participating in farces. And the notion that its good that people dont participate because it would overwhelm the system is vacuous.
I wasn't suggesting that it was good. What I meant was that if it is really 90% that do not participate, and they really are all people who are happy enough with the game as it is and with CCP's decisions, then they could easily make that the dominant view just by participating. They would not have to fight their side in typical forum warfare fashion, as they would outnumber the current forum population 9:1.
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Crumplecorn If you want CCP to disband the CSM because it is not effective, you may as well ask them to shut off the forums too, and cut the players off from the development process completely. This, of course, isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it is the logical conclusion of your suggestion.
Although the forums have use for players connecting with players and answering quesitons, driving development from forum consensus is crazy. You cant proclaim a consensus on an issue with a quorum of 10%! Development should be driven by vision and goals and feedback needs to come from a source with significantly higher participation such as methods I mentioned above.
Like I said, if people hold an election, you can't complain about the outcome if you don't vote, whatever you may think of the election. I agree that development shouldn't be driven by whines, I spend most my time on the forum flaming those very whines, but this is what we have. I'd rather be here flaming people than sitting in game hoping for the best. -
DesuSigs |
kryptteacher
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Posted - 2008.08.02 01:57:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: kryptteacher rells have you been able to test the proposed changes yet?
Yes. I and the rest of AGONY spend extensive time on SISI testing things. AF and Bomber changes are good. Recalibration for MWDs makes sense. The rest s over the top and damaging.
Interestingly one of the techniques AGONY uses to combat nano ships has just become much harder. Fishing (the process of killing interceptors and interdictors with tech 1 frigates) is MUCH more difficult now because of the web changes for example.
hmm cool. thanks for the input there. In response to one of your previous posts.. i don't know i don't see how your ranting here holds much weight if you choose not to participate in the 'csm system'. If it is as bad as you say it is then your participation couldn't make it any worse.
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