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Jericho Taurus
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Posted - 2008.08.02 13:17:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Doc Fury Edited by: Doc Fury on 02/08/2008 00:08:25 Actually (I am paraphrasing here) the CSM was originally supposed to fly to Iceland to dig into the soft and dark underbelly of CCP in the spirit of "transparency" so that stuff like the T20 incident didn't happen again.
Look what we got.
Sorry for being new, but what was the "T20 incident" exactly?
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.08.02 13:20:00 -
[62]
It's a waste of time because PLAYERS SUCK AT GAME DESIGN.
Every single one of us, myself included. We are all far too biased in our views to ever hope to achieve anything close to balanced.
Players should be observed and not listened to if you are after a balanced game.
About the only thing the CSM is good for is formalizing some sort of rack and stack on priorities. It gives us a vehicle for informing CCP what our priorities are for things already identified as needing fixing. Things like the corp management UI...
There's an awsome quote that goes something like, "There is no great idea that can not be completely destroyed by a committee"
That about sums up my thoughts on the CSM and player inputs in general.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Gone'Postal
Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.08.02 13:23:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Jericho Taurus
Originally by: Doc Fury Edited by: Doc Fury on 02/08/2008 00:08:25 Actually (I am paraphrasing here) the CSM was originally supposed to fly to Iceland to dig into the soft and dark underbelly of CCP in the spirit of "transparency" so that stuff like the T20 incident didn't happen again.
Look what we got.
Sorry for being new, but what was the "T20 incident" exactly?
CCP Staff DEV. Leader of BoB (Band of Brothers) cap fleet, Gave BoB 6(?) T2 BPO's (1 ship 5 others IIRC) Got found out. Got let off.
I think thats the balls of it but don't quote me on it, i'm hazy on parts.
-V8I-
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kryptteacher
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Posted - 2008.08.02 13:26:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 It's a waste of time because PLAYERS SUCK AT GAME DESIGN.
Every single one of us, myself included. We are all far too biased in our views to ever hope to achieve anything close to balanced.
Players should be observed and not listened to if you are after a balanced game.
About the only thing the CSM is good for is formalizing some sort of rack and stack on priorities. It gives us a vehicle for informing CCP what our priorities are for things already identified as needing fixing. Things like the corp management UI...
There's an awsome quote that goes something like, "There is no great idea that can not be completely destroyed by a committee"
That about sums up my thoughts on the CSM and player inputs in general.
it is my hope that this is what the CSM represents. if you do not like the current reps, vote accordingly next time.
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Dionisius
Gallente Sincarnate Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:07:00 -
[65]
Hello people, its the annoying God of drunken people posting again just to say..
I TOLD YOU SO!
Well the candidates still have until the end of their mandate to set things right but we all know were that will lead , nowhere.
CCP could improve the game alright, but that would been using the beat stick on the GM's, at least the ones doing a poor job, and actually rewarding the good ones while at the same time trying to bring fresh people to help in steering this " boat " called EvE.
Off course we won't see that happen, as well as the CSM will be probably classified has a " successful " experiment and so we must endure the next waves of candidates and " alternative " candidates succeeding the actual ones and giving continuity to the work being done, either good or bad.
Enjoy EvE gentleman. _____________________________________
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:25:00 -
[66]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence?
Mmmm, you mean we throw away the democratic element of the CSM and simply appoint 2 of your mates who weren't capable of getting elected through the popular vote to make decisions you'd approve of? I can see why you like the idea Rule but got to admit it doesn't exactly ring of democratic institutions in the virtual gaming arena.
Quote: It's a waste of time because the CSM has no real power. It's a waste of time because regardless, players should never have the ability to decide on how it's developed.
So its a "waste of time" because it has no real power but you don't think it should anyway?
Quote: It's a waste of time because there's a big pile of heavily biased people as representatives.
And its a "waste of time" because people with opinions got elected?
Quote: It's a waste of time because the chairman is overzealous, which has been proven.
And its a "waste of time" because the chair actually cares about it?
Quote: It's a waste of time because the CSM is a hollow shadow of what it was originally intended to be, after the recent unpleasentness.
And its a "waste of time" because its actually about players having an input into all eve issues rather than just the corruption oversight role (which it has anyway).
Quote: It's a waste of time because more than anything people are whinging about nerfing and boosting ships rather than actual game issues.
And its a "waste of time" because players (like you Verone and you Rule and you Rells) are whinging about nerfing and boosting rather than talking about visionary game issues?
Good heavens what a bunch of self-indulgent claptrap. You Verone are the "waste of time" in this thread. You've been nothing but a cynical naysayer on all things CSM since you dropped out of the election.
Threads like this are "the waste of time" (in the op) and its just a bunch of hasbeens venting their spleen because they don't have the confidence to actually propose assembly hall issues and engage with the player base while arguing their points.
Rule, Verone, Rells. When I see a decent assembly hall issue from any of you I'll revise my opinion.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:29:00 -
[67]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/08/2008 14:30:09
Originally by: Vaal Erit For example, has any CSM member brought ideas to different forums/websites and ask opinions of many players in game? No, CSM members instead put in the least amount of effort and simply post on Assembly Hall and ask their friends ingame and think that is enough research into an issue.
Really? Realllly?
Things you aren't aware of must not happen, right?
Also, it's a pretty sad day when I agree with a Jade post.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:32:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/08/2008 14:33:28
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Vaal Erit For example, has any CSM member brought ideas to different forums/websites and ask opinions of many players in game? No, CSM members instead put in the least amount of effort and simply post on Assembly Hall and ask their friends ingame and think that is enough research into an issue.
Really? Realllly?
Things you aren't aware of must not happen, right?
Don't bring logic into this argument please - he had me convinced all my chatsubo/scrapheap/uk/blog/directevemail/etc/etc/etc feedback/ideas whatnot were all just figments of my imagination because I really trust the ramblings of annoyed internet posters scrambling to agree with a bored veteran whine thread.
Quote: Also, it's a pretty sad day when I agree with a Jade post.
lol, you know something smells in the op when I'm putting the boot in alongside the goons
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:41:00 -
[69]
Quote: Mmmm, you mean we throw away the democratic element of the CSM and simply appoint 2 of your mates who weren't capable of getting elected through the popular vote to make decisions you'd approve of? I can see why you like the idea Rule but got to admit it doesn't exactly ring of democratic institutions in the virtual gaming arena.
Hmm, you mean that democratic societies normally actually work or exist? You mean that it's best to leave the choices up to the general public, who're too stupid to walk and breathe at the same time, who are SO good at making choices that all we see on TV is reality series, big brother clones and tripe like that?
That majority?
This is a game, not a country. Have people at the helm that KNOW what they're talking about, not people who want to have power because of the power itself, or those who bury facts and reason in mudpits of 17 paragraphs of text while somehow be able to actually not say a damn thing.
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TimGascoigne
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:45:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Rells The creation of the CSM was supposed to be an interface point for interracting with the players, determining the player priorities and providing oversight of changes in the game. In reality it is a PR stunt, free trip to Iceland and an ego fluff for the members that were "elected" in a dubious process. As a player I don't see the value in the committee and don't want them feigning to speak for me. The fact that they seem to have 0 influence leads to the facade and thus the uselessness of the committee.
And while you are at it, stop making wide sweeping massive changes in the entire game balance based upon the whines of the 10% of the eve population willing to participate in this sewer of a forum. Most of the people whining should, in my opinion, stop posting and start learnign how to play, thinking tactically and recognizing that the game should not be boiled down to who has the biggest gun.
Thanks. We now return you to your regular whine and flame fest.
P.S. No, I am not a nano ship junkie, I'm rarely in nano ships so nice try on that one.
we are of the same mind. I very rarely fly nano's simply because they're not very good ships. Instead I fit an MWD and an armour plate ( yes I know that's a bit contradictory)on to my hurricane and then enjoy good success in killing speed tankers. Really nano's whenever that brilliant to begin with and now thanks to CSM and forums this will be another game of sitting still hoping your tank will outlast theres
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:50:00 -
[71]
Originally by: TimGascoigne ... thanks to CSM and forums this will be another game of sitting still hoping your tank will outlast theres
Seriously, don't blame the CSM for the nano-nerf. That is down to a sustained campaign of forum-whining that began well before the CSM elections and we haven't escalated a single issue addressing these whines thank you very much!
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:51:00 -
[72]
Another whine post from Rells. You said you were quitting eve, and you totally should have.
Nice sweeping statements accusing people of making sweeping statements.
Rather than ask for things you know won't happen and ending up sounding like a whiner yourself, try suggesting changes.
Anyway, if they have 0 influence and are useless, why do you care? Are you jealous people are flying to iceland? Shut up.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.02 14:58:00 -
[73]
Rells? Arrogant, grumpy and thoroughly whining?
My gosh I'm surprised.
When are you going to cheer the **** up, sourpuss? Life's not all My Chemical Romance and thunderclouds. Its sunny outside! _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Victor Valka
Caldari Kissaki Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.02 15:23:00 -
[74]
Rells, tell me. Will I ever live to see they day you'll start a thread that is not negative?
Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.08.02 15:29:00 -
[75]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 02/08/2008 15:29:30
Originally by: Rells The creation of the CSM was supposed to be an interface point for interracting with the players, determining the player priorities and providing oversight of changes in the game. In reality it is a PR stunt, free trip to Iceland and an ego fluff for the members that were "elected" in a dubious process. As a player I don't see the value in the committee and don't want them feigning to speak for me. The fact that they seem to have 0 influence leads to the facade and thus the uselessness of the committee.
And while you are at it, stop making wide sweeping massive changes in the entire game balance based upon the whines of the 10% of the eve population willing to participate in this sewer of a forum. Most of the people whining should, in my opinion, stop posting and start learnign how to play, thinking tactically and recognizing that the game should not be boiled down to who has the biggest gun.
Thanks. We now return you to your regular whine and flame fest.
P.S. No, I am not a nano ship junkie, I'm rarely in nano ships so nice try on that one.
I am not sure about the CMS personally, i dont think they have really had ANY time yet to effect the game. Personally though i think its there job to communicate with the general populas about dev intentions (CCP always said they wouldnt have any real power, but they were going to be a conduite that the players base could talk to).
i think they are failing slightly on the "communicating front" and lots of posts come across over defensive.
having said that, your above post is a disguised whine about nerfs, nothing more nothing less, you can't tag "btw i dont fly nano ships" on the end and think that makes the obvious vitrol *******s of your whine go away.
tell you what, did the game work before polycarbs? ohh yes it did.
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 15:52:00 -
[76]
Originally by: NeoTheo i think they are failing slightly on the "communicating front" and lots of posts come across over defensive.
I think its all about context really. If people engage in decent discussion I think you get to see the good side of the CSM; assembly hall has plenty of feedback from delegates in good debates. Jita park is updated regularly with meeting logs and agendas. The eve public is getting to hear about the issues we're advocating and what happens to the issues throughout that process. We've done plenty of communicating beyond the eve online forums - interviews with press and online sites, lots of us are engaged with the community on a number of levels on various third party sites.
But of course end of the day we're eve players too and all that "dark and dangerous" stuff that Rule is banging on about: We've been there, kicked in heads and got the tee-shirts to celebrate the virtual brutality and spaceships burning over our eve history. Hell, I've been shooting statist dogs, killing corps and alliances and generally raining death and destruction on ideological foes for 5 years now. I ran for election on a ticket of combat dynamism and enhanced carnage in warfare and skirmish in eve. Guys like verone, rule, rells? rank amateurs compared to some of the hardcore brutal red in tooth and claw players on the CSM.
So its not so much defensive sometimes as "wardec or stfu". If these guys want a pop at the CSM they only need to sign up next time round and run for election and show the eve public exactly what they think they can do. I'd have 100% more respect for that than for cynical naysayers that sit on the sidelines too nervous to get up and dance when the music changes.
Quote: having said that, your[rells] above post is a disguised whine about nerfs, nothing more nothing less, you can't tag "btw i dont fly nano ships" on the end and think that makes the obvious vitrol *******s of your whine go away. tell you what, did the game work before polycarbs? ohh yes it did.
Well its obviously a disguised whine of sorts - but I guess its blaming the CSM for the nano-nerf when its pretty clear that as a council we haven't supported a single speed-nerfing topic and actually commended 30 alternative issues to CCP's attention ahead of speed being addressed in the first session.
Still end of the day remember we are Eve players after all rather than some kind of limp-wristed politically-correct nampy-pamby numpties with responsibilty to listen to pathetic whines. **** us off too much and we'll probably just wardec your corps and salve our hurt feelings with the skulls of your corp mates
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
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Posted - 2008.08.02 15:57:00 -
[77]
Don't you get it jade?
You don't do anything, because you have 0 influence and are a farce, which is why you're responsible for the nano nerf.
Or something.
I'm working through it. Perhaps if I hit my head on my desk a few times I'll understand the reasoning.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Skrakron
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:04:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Frug Don't you get it jade?
You don't do anything, because you have 0 influence and are a farce, which is why you're responsible for the nano nerf.
Or something.
I'm working through it. Perhaps if I hit my head on my desk a few times I'll understand the reasoning.
i dont think you get it. How Can jade be resonponsable for the Nano Nerf. He is not a dev. What will it take for you noobs to get it. I would rather have 5year old players on the council than have people like you or the other whiners get a seat. Game will be dead within a year. Fanfest is going to be fun, conflicts here we come. hehe.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:06:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Frug Don't you get it jade?
You don't do anything, because you have 0 influence and are a farce, which is why you're responsible for the nano nerf.
Or something.
I'm working through it. Perhaps if I hit my head on my desk a few times I'll understand the reasoning.
Yeah, I wondered if that was the magic trick to realigning perceptions to see the world through Verone's eyes tbh
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:06:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Rells The creation of the CSM was supposed to be an interface point for interracting with the players, determining the player priorities and providing oversight of changes in the game. In reality it is a PR stunt, free trip to Iceland and an ego fluff for the members that were "elected" in a dubious process. As a player I don't see the value in the committee and don't want them feigning to speak for me. The fact that they seem to have 0 influence leads to the facade and thus the uselessness of the committee.
And while you are at it, stop making wide sweeping massive changes in the entire game balance based upon the whines of the 10% of the eve population willing to participate in this sewer of a forum. Most of the people whining should, in my opinion, stop posting and start learnign how to play, thinking tactically and recognizing that the game should not be boiled down to who has the biggest gun.
Thanks. We now return you to your regular whine and flame fest.
P.S. No, I am not a nano ship junkie, I'm rarely in nano ships so nice try on that one.
You've never been very on the ball Rells, but seriously, for one stop whining because EVE isn't how you' personally want it to be.
CSM have 0 influence, yes that's the idea. They have no real influence, they are just there to bring the most important (to the players) issues to CCP. It'd be idiotic to think they have any power to actually tell CCP what to do.
I can guess where you pulled that 10% from, given how much the argument stinks, but I agree with you, most whiners should stop posting and play instead. This includes you. That you think a small minority is getting them to make such changes, or that it's the only factor, is just embarrassing for you.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:09:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Skrakron i dont think you get it. How Can jade be resonponsable for the Nano Nerf. He is not a dev. What will it take for you noobs to get it. I would rather have 5year old players on the council than have people like you or the other whiners get a seat. Game will be dead within a year. Fanfest is going to be fun, conflicts here we come. hehe.
Word, I'm looking forward to fanfest. I love meeting internet tough guys face to face me Serious point though, the CSM election process did separate the men from the boys (with apologies to Ank and Inanna) when it came to actually having the guts and persistence to stand for election and win a seat. Wannabes who didn't have the stones to actually throw their hat in the ring and still want to appoint their mates to the jobs without a popular vote frankly make me laugh with derision.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:09:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Tarminic So, Rells, what do you feel this thread will accomplish?
Amuse me. Make me feel better. Not much more.
I am under not illusions that it will change the world.
So you basically made a thread to add to the problems you're mentioning exist, such as the crap in the forums.
Grats?
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:10:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Word, I'm looking forward to fanfest. I love meeting internet tough guys face to face me
Oh boy, I couldn't agree more .
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Skrakron
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:19:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Skrakron on 02/08/2008 16:24:12 Edited by: Skrakron on 02/08/2008 16:19:50 i would laugh if none of the forum whiners are actually old enough to go to fanfest anyway. Proberly not allowed out by there mummies
P.S Damn alt, This is lordswift
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:25:00 -
[85]
I hope all you people crying over the speed changes are pushing the CSM to raise the issue to CCP. That way, once they do, and CCP tells them the changes are still happening in one way or another, and lay out the reasons in crayon so even the blind, frothing nano-fanboys can read it, they'll realize just how dumb they'd been acting with their assumptions.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:42:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/08/2008 16:47:17
Originally by: Verone Awesome CSM front there Jade, awesome. A player voicing his concern and stating his opinion is a waste of time? Oh, hang on... wasn't the CSM supposed to listen to everyone? I believe you've just failed at the first hurdle, yet again. As for dropping out of the election, it's the best descision I ever made in Eve.
Actually Verone in this thread you are behaving like a "whiner" not a player. I'm happy to listen to players. I really don't care about "whiners" in the least. Your post above is just a lot of hot air and nonsense.
Quote: And you want me to waste my time putting together proposals on the Assembly Hall, only for them to be knocked back because they don't fit with your agenda?
I don't really care what you do Verone. I lost all respect for you a while ago.
Quote: Get real mate, I'll start posting ideas when you start LEADING the CSM without bias and without being obnoxious and arrogant to everyone who has the gall to put negative opinions forward.
Sorry Verone, I didn't get elected to act like your fall guy and take nonsense from your emo cynicism. You want my respect again you'll have to earn it. But I've seen precisely nothing from you for a long time that isn't obnoxious and arrogant. Take a look in the mirror Verone.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:44:00 -
[87]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Word, I'm looking forward to fanfest. I love meeting internet tough guys face to face me
Oh boy, I couldn't agree more .
What exactly is this supposed to mean? Seriously? Are you in some way feeling that threatened by criticism that oblique references such as the above are going to make such criticism cease?
Please do carry on posing though.
This years bumfight event has been replaced by a new and exciting nerdfight. Vote against the nano nerf! |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:46:00 -
[88]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone What exactly is this supposed to mean? Seriously? Are you in some way feeling that threatened by criticism that oblique references such as the above are going to make such criticism cease?
It means that I think you're probably a giant internet poseur who will shrivel up and hide in dark corners rather than come and share "your opinions" face to face in a bar Rule. :~
Basically I don't think you have the guts to do anything of moment. Whether that be standing for an internet election, having a face to face discussion, or anything else that means you have to get out from behind the keyboard and actually persuade somebody of the merit of your opinions.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:51:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Actually Verone in this thread you are behaving like a "whiner" not a player. I'm happy to listen to players. I really don't care about "whiners" in the least. Your post above is just a lot of hot air and nonsense.
Voicing my concerns isn't whining, I'm not whining and demanding a thing, I'm simply pointing out flaws. It's easy to act the child and brand anything you don't agree with a "whine" Jade. Quite a few people share the same opinion as myself. Why do you think only some 11% of the playerbase voted on the CSM elections? Most see it as a publi****y stunt and a waste of time. I actually wanted it to be something, sadly those hopes were hollow.
Originally by: Jade Constantine I don't really care what you do Verone. I lost all respect for you a while ago.
I've never needed nor wanted your respect. All I've seen from you in five years is trashtalk, agression, and downright out of character hostility toward other players coupled with immeasurable arrogance.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Sorry Verone, I didn't get elected act like your fall guy. You want my respect again you'll have to earn it. But I've seen precisely nothing from you for a long time that isn't obnoxious and arrogant. Take a look in the mirror Verone.
I don't want your respect, moreover I don't need it. I'm glad you don't want to act like my fall guy, that's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking you to do is perform the task you were elected to do, which is to lead without severe bias. You were ELECTED. An election denote democracy. Act like it.
You haven't seem anything from me that isn't obnoxious or arrogant because my personality as a player and indeed a person is like a mirror. I bounce back exactly what I recieve, hence the reason I get on very well with 99.9% of the people I speak to. It's also the reason you're seeing a side of me you apparently don't much like, I'm mirroring the exact same treatment you're giving me, and the rest of the community who have the gall to openly disagree with you.
\o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Viqtoria
Caldari Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.08.02 16:52:00 -
[90]
DESTROYER WOLFPACKS
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