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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:31:00 -
[211]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
**EDIT**With regard to specific ship issues-If CCP desired intelligent player input towards balancing why not form a private consultation group of experienced and proven combat pilots (heck..chuck Chribba in there as well for the non-pew side) and solicit the opinions of them? Who would have a problem with Rells, Verone, Eddz, the dude with the glasses, Calmdown--basically the tourney commentating team with a couple of smart additions--in that sort of a non-public role?
So basically you are for having the CSM election results declared void and having the CSM replaced by a group of your mates to become the unseen eve balancing Illuminati running things from behind the scenes? Are people supposed to vote for this or you just want to forget all that voting stuff and have your decision hold sway over everyone Rule?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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IzzyChan
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:39:00 -
[212]
I think a few people in this thread need a Happy ChipÖ. --------------------
Naqam
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Selim
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:39:00 -
[213]
Damn, looks like I accicentally clicked on a link to Chatsubo, instead of eve-o!
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Leon 026
Caldari Vorace. Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:43:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Selim Damn, looks like I accicentally clicked on a link to Chatsubo, instead of eve-o!
Yup, with the same old popularity contests too.
Recruiting |
Sergio Ling
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.08.03 13:58:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
**EDIT**With regard to specific ship issues-If CCP desired intelligent player input towards balancing why not form a private consultation group of experienced and proven combat pilots (heck..chuck Chribba in there as well for the non-pew side) and solicit the opinions of them? Who would have a problem with Rells, Verone, Eddz, the dude with the glasses, Calmdown--basically the tourney commentating team with a couple of smart additions--in that sort of a non-public role?
So basically you are for having the CSM election results declared void and having the CSM replaced by a group of your mates to become the unseen eve balancing Illuminati running things from behind the scenes? Are people supposed to vote for this or you just want to forget all that voting stuff and have your decision hold sway over everyone Rule?
You're doing it again. You're assuming the worst, and using that assumption to paint someone who disagrees with you in a fetid light.
Mates? He's said so before, that's not the case. Verone, yes. He's never flown with Rells, and no-one likes Eddz enough to be caled a mate of his. Calmdown and the dude with the glasses (Where's Wally? No idea who this is). These aren't his mates, these are people who were picked for a reason, and came through with great game knowledge. They're not people who got voted into an 'amazing' structure because of a faked democracy, or because they showed their ass on a campaign video. Or because they love to argue and use a block of sixteen paragraphs to do so. _
BET ISK ON ANYTHING AT ALL |
Jinx Denton
Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:12:00 -
[216]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Awwww shucks whoever you are .
No ransom discount though .
That was me, you knucklehead. <3
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Dionisius
Gallente Sincarnate Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:16:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Sergio Ling
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
**EDIT**With regard to specific ship issues-If CCP desired intelligent player input towards balancing why not form a private consultation group of experienced and proven combat pilots (heck..chuck Chribba in there as well for the non-pew side) and solicit the opinions of them? Who would have a problem with Rells, Verone, Eddz, the dude with the glasses, Calmdown--basically the tourney commentating team with a couple of smart additions--in that sort of a non-public role?
So basically you are for having the CSM election results declared void and having the CSM replaced by a group of your mates to become the unseen eve balancing Illuminati running things from behind the scenes? Are people supposed to vote for this or you just want to forget all that voting stuff and have your decision hold sway over everyone Rule?
You're doing it again. You're assuming the worst, and using that assumption to paint someone who disagrees with you in a fetid light.
Mates? He's said so before, that's not the case. Verone, yes. He's never flown with Rells, and no-one likes Eddz enough to be caled a mate of his. Calmdown and the dude with the glasses (Where's Wally? No idea who this is). These aren't his mates, these are people who were picked for a reason, and came through with great game knowledge. They're not people who got voted into an 'amazing' structure because of a faked democracy, or because they showed their ass on a campaign video. Or because they love to argue and use a block of sixteen paragraphs to do so.
Still that doesn't meen they are the right people to " run " the game, unless it can be garanteed that they will take some distance from their personall views on how the game should be played and give some unbiased input to CCP. _____________________________________
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Isiskhan
Gnostic Misanthropy
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:25:00 -
[218]
*munches popcorn*
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Ruze
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:27:00 -
[219]
Wouldn't it be a safe bet that nobody who's posted in this topic is the right one's to run the game? Especially the main thoroughfare? They've all swapped insults and spoken behind their hand.
In my defense, I'm only here to enjoy the bickering and to post my own random comment now and then. Since I am an obvious representation of at least part of the playerbase, you should all elect me for CSM.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:38:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Sergio Ling You're doing it again. You're assuming the worst, and using that assumption to paint someone who disagrees with you in a fetid light.
He has been pretty explicit in his belief that he'd rather see game balance issues handled by an unelected coterie of people he "respects" rather than by the choice of the eve public though. Spin it however you like Sergio - replacing the CSM with a group of players that happens to include your ex CEO is a bit rum.
Quote: Mates? He's said so before, that's not the case. Verone, yes. He's never flown with Rells, and no-one likes Eddz enough to be caled a mate of his. Calmdown and the dude with the glasses (Where's Wally? No idea who this is). These aren't his mates, these are people who were picked for a reason, and came through with great game knowledge.
Picked by whom? Picked by Rule? Where do you guys get off suggesting that an elected council should be replaced by a bunch of political appointees chosen by RuleofBone? And lets face it - the only thing we've seen from these guys is that they are good at launching attacks ON other players who DID get elected. Just looks like jealous sour grapes to me.
Quote: They're not people who got voted into an 'amazing' structure because of a faked democracy, or because they showed their ass on a campaign video. Or because they love to argue and use a block of sixteen paragraphs to do so.
So the election was faked somehow? Is that the story doing the rounds in Veto at the moment?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:41:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
**EDIT**With regard to specific ship issues-If CCP desired intelligent player input towards balancing why not form a private consultation group of experienced and proven combat pilots (heck..chuck Chribba in there as well for the non-pew side) and solicit the opinions of them? Who would have a problem with Rells, Verone, Eddz, the dude with the glasses, Calmdown--basically the tourney commentating team with a couple of smart additions--in that sort of a non-public role?
So basically you are for having the CSM election results declared void and having the CSM replaced by a group of your mates to become the unseen eve balancing Illuminati running things from behind the scenes? Are people supposed to vote for this or you just want to forget all that voting stuff and have your decision hold sway over everyone Rule?
Chribba=Illuminati ? Nerf the feared mining dread .
Mr/Miss/Whatever Constantine...selective quoting and mis-reading/understanding my rather plain statements is doing you zero favors.
Illuminati eh? How exactly would CCP developing a bit of common sense and having a small pool of proven and experienced players as a private and realistic sounding board turn into a grand scheme of subversion and secret admission into the CCP "Order of the Holy Chamberpot-no guests allowed"?
CCP saw fit to select certain individuals to oversee and provide expert commentary for the alliance tourney. And given that they are all amateurs with nothing more than excellent knowledge of the game I thought they did a rather nice job (ok--could have lived without annoying hat dude and his evil cell-phone-to-ear "sekrit plans afoot" sidekick as guests ).
CCP seemed able to select those folks without resorting to silly campaigns. And strangely enough-you weren't picked.
And for the record:
Verone-yep...I would consider him a pal having flown for him under the Veto banner for over a year and met him IRL. And oh my does he ever know the game.
Rells-I took two of AU's classes when I was new to the game. He was the main FC both times and comparing what I saw then with what I know now-he knows his stuff. And hundreds of AU grads would agree.
Eddz-Don't know him personally. But his reputation, knowledge, and obvious love of the game came through loud and clear during the tourney.
Calmdown-Gee...he only runs SHC (where certain players have probably forgot more about the game than you will ever know).
And so on....is it sinking in now? It's not about elections or popularity contests. If CCP sees fit to include players as a sounding board/advisory panel then it should be done on the basis of ingame expertise. Period. No politics, hidden agendas, or self interest.
By all means keep the CSM if it keeps you quiet. And quiet is what you should be while seeing to the original mandate of oversight into potential interference in the game by other-than-players (polite way of saying dev/GM/whatever)...and insofar as CCP is willing to allow this.
And if that means draconian measures...well...I say long live the king!
p.s. The "glasses-wearing dude" I refer to was in the commentary box with Verone quite a bit. Dark hair, tall, and well-clued up. Apologies for not remembering the name.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Shamharoth
Gallente Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:41:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Shamharoth on 03/08/2008 14:44:27 This thread is the best thing that happened since the epic dev vagabond poast :D Keep smacking! :D
Also, +1 to RuleOfTheBone
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:46:00 -
[223]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 03/08/2008 14:46:31
Originally by: Jade Constantine Where do you guys get off suggesting that an elected council should be replaced by a bunch of political appointees chosen by RuleofBone?
I said "selected by CCP". No politics. No bullshit. No spin.
The latter three happen to be exactly what YOU are made of.
**EDIT**Did you miss the part where I suggested Chribba?
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:48:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/08/2008 14:50:12
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence? You know I'm right Cool.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Mr/Miss/Whatever Constantine...selective quoting and mis-reading/understanding my rather plain statements is doing you zero favors.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone And if that means draconian measures...well...I say long live the king!
Difficult to misquote you RuleofBone. You don't like the result of a democratic election and so wish to attack the process and replace the results with an unelected coterie of "experts" that you are happy to advise on the picking of. Pretty open and shut case.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:48:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence?
Mmmm, you mean we throw away the democratic element of the CSM ...
Uhm, if only 10% of the people are voting you can hardly talk about democratic elements.
It just means that 90% of Eve doesn't backup the CSM!!
So don't talk about any legitimation you have to talk for the players of Eve. Only a small clique voted for the CSM - for whatever reasons.
Quote:
Quote: It's a waste of time because there's a big pile of heavily biased people as representatives.
And its a "waste of time" because people with opinions got elected?
Yes, when people only think of their own benefits and if THEY would like it, yes, then it is a complete waste.
Quote:
Quote: It's a waste of time because the CSM is a hollow shadow of what it was originally intended to be, after the recent unpleasentness.
And its a "waste of time" because its actually about players having an input into all eve issues rather than just the corruption oversight role (which it has anyway).
I think the players on the game development forum posting countless numbers and suggestions have much more influence and impact on the development than any CSM, sorry to burst your bubble of being important.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:54:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence?
Mmmm, you mean we throw away the democratic element of the CSM ...
Uhm, if only 10% of the people are voting you can hardly talk about democratic elements.
It just means that 90% of Eve doesn't backup the CSM!!
So don't talk about any legitimation you have to talk for the players of Eve. Only a small clique voted for the CSM - for whatever reasons.
Quote:
Quote: It's a waste of time because there's a big pile of heavily biased people as representatives.
And its a "waste of time" because people with opinions got elected?
Yes, when people only think of their own benefits and if THEY would like it, yes, then it is a complete waste.
Quote:
Quote: It's a waste of time because the CSM is a hollow shadow of what it was originally intended to be, after the recent unpleasentness.
And its a "waste of time" because its actually about players having an input into all eve issues rather than just the corruption oversight role (which it has anyway).
I think the players on the game development forum posting countless numbers and suggestions have much more influence and impact on the development than any CSM, sorry to burst your bubble of being important.
So do you agree with the principle that the CSM should be disbanded and replaced by an unelected group of "super players" in charge of balancing chosen by the various outspoken luminaries of this thread out of interest?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Dionisius
Gallente Sincarnate Holding
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:55:00 -
[227]
This is democracy in action , people debating and expressing their opinions.
I now feel that we live in a truly enlightened age. _____________________________________
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Zilli Zilp
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Posted - 2008.08.03 14:59:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Verone Awesome CSM front there Jade, awesome. A player voicing his concern and stating his opinion is a waste of time? Oh, hang on... wasn't the CSM supposed to listen to everyone? I believe you've just failed at the first hurdle, yet again. As for dropping out of the election, it's the best descision I ever made in Eve.
Actually Verone in this thread you are behaving like a "whiner" not a player. I'm happy to listen to players. I really don't care about "whiners" in the least.
Wow. That is interesting.
People who voice their opinion which are others than yours are "whiners" and you ignore them? So, if you think an idea absurd you classify that person as a "whiner" and completely ignore their ideas and suggestions?
Aren't "whiners" also part of the game and shouldn't you represent them also even if you dislike them???
Oh, I see ... you represent only those people who agree with you...
I think all the posts of others couldn't disqualify you more than just your own reply.
Sad. Very say.
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Sergio Ling
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:02:00 -
[229]
Bah, I'm done. I'm trying a decent civilised discussion, but it's like dealing with a real buttered-up politician. misquoting, partial-quoting, and ignoring anything said you can't or don't want to deal with. Good luck in the CSM Jade, I hope you can make it worthwhile, and I hope you can get people under you to work together. _
BET ISK ON ANYTHING AT ALL |
Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:04:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Moon Kitten on 03/08/2008 15:05:06 Who is a very vocal whiner when it comes to 0.0 and outposts?
Yes, that is the correct answer.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:04:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/08/2008 15:05:12
Its a fun thread, but you are bickering like school girls...
+1 for the entertainment though. :)
---
Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:14:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Jade Constantine So do you agree with the principle that the CSM should be disbanded and replaced by an unelected group of "super players" in charge of balancing chosen by the various outspoken luminaries of this thread out of interest?
Deliberate misquoting again Jade. You are getting repetitive and boring now.
"In charge" "unelected" "chosen by the various outspoken luminaries" ad naseum
In original form this was "selected" and "CCP sounding board". Also "selected by CCP".
You may have a future in RL politics (if the fact you enjoy pretending to be some futuristic cyber-**** is overlooked by RL voters). But this is a game and I can freely call you out in that context....especially as an active player of said game .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Audrea
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:24:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Audrea on 03/08/2008 15:25:03 Jade, I used to think you'd be a good choice for the CSM, now I see I was wrong, and am happy I voted Hardin :P
I too dont believe the CSM is functioning properly right now, but unlike Verone I do believe it can do something, even though it would never be ideal - it cant replace direct feedback and interaction with players, but rather supplement it, and allow another angle into the discussion(s), like that voting system.
However, and regardless of Verone being my CEO and a great guy, your behaviour and conduct in this thread towards a player - regardless of whether he is right or wrong about the issue, only serves to prove that you are unfit to be the CSM chair.
Perhaps you should step back from replying, and get perspective on yourself and what people think of you as a CSM chair so far; Need not to look far- The thread with 200+ voting to have you removed, and even more people here doing so.
There is no shame in admitting one doesn't suit a certain task, and actually recognizing that, stepping down to allow someone better suited to try and do a better job, is the better part of valor, and would earn more respect than holding on to the title with teeth and nails.
Even if you still think you have the support behind you, if you have any norms you value, following your actions in this thread alone against a fellow player, is enough to warrant stepping down/resigning from the Chair, without any votings by anyone, although I think CSM board should be able to do a vote of no confidence in its Chairman.
There have been precedences of PMs/Presidents stepping down cause of things way out of norm, like you did in this thread and probably other places, so again no shame in that.
Here is a good post below that you ignored, and kept spending your energies attacking the people posting here, instead of addressing issues (look up the original, had to strip some to make one post).
Good luck, either way I am fairly confident you'd never be re-elected unless of course something about your demeanor and achivements change drastically, and soon
Originally by: Victor Vision Edited by: Victor Vision on 03/08/2008 08:08:10 Some food for thought on problems with the CSM:
1) Lack of CSM interaction with players.
Typically the only CSM interaction with players I have seen is in threads were the CSM is openly attacked, and CSM representatives rush for its protection... like this thread here.
Another place of CSM interaction with the players is in the CSM part of the forums, but this part of the forums is little visited (one of the reasons may be point 3 in this post)
2) CSM functions as a further instance between the players and CCP.
3) Lack of possibility for players to give mandatory issues of discussion to the CSM (who will then discuss them fairly with CCP)
Currently - as far as I know - The issues brought up by players in the CSM forums need 25% of the votes from the election to become mandatory for discussion in the next CCP/CSM meeting. If my numbers are right the CSM election had about 10000 votes.
1) All AGAINST The Nano-Nerf - 1226 2) Removal of 30-day and 90-day time cards - 710 3) All FOR The Nano-Nerf - 561 4) The use of Evemail as a logging system for corporate events - 488 5) We want a dev response about a skill queue - 268 6) Remove Jade from Chair - 207 7) POS: Flogging the Dead Horse Be Recommended for Implementation - 197 8) Minmatar capitals are terrible - 169 9) We shouldn't need to post to support an issue - 163 10) Make sucide ganking more difficult - 156
These are the top 10 voted issues in the assembly hall.
In general it seems aparent, that instead of having a hard limit of votes to force a topic for CSM/CCP discussion, it would probably be better to put the top 5 or top 10 issues into the CSM agenda for the next CSM/CCP meet.
The CSM can become a useful institution, but it has a long way to go.
Best regards, VV
PS: Hi Bone!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:24:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
So do you agree with the principle that the CSM should be disbanded and replaced by an unelected group of "super players" in charge of balancing chosen by the various outspoken luminaries of this thread out of interest?
Why do you think I would suggest such a thing? Where did I say anything about replacing the CSM by "super players"?
And balancing? I was unaware that the CSM is doing any balancing at all. It is the first thing I hear here that the CSM is balancing.
I thought the CSM was there to a) raise CCP's attention to concerns of the playerbase and b) to look that another t20 won't happen again.
Obviously the b) part is completely cancelled out, so only part a) is left. To act as a focussing tool so that CCP can more easy identify the concerns of the playerbase.
CSM is doing balancing stuff now? Wow ...
And I thought CCP devs and game developers were doing the balancing. How stupid of me!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:30:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/08/2008 15:31:18
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Originally by: Jade Constantine So do you agree with the principle that the CSM should be disbanded and replaced by an unelected group of "super players" in charge of balancing chosen by the various outspoken luminaries of this thread out of interest?
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Actually...hmmm...what if CSM got dumped and folks like Rells and Verone (who actually understand the definition of "cold, dark, harsh universe (et al)" and how to play a game by those three descriptors) were given proper influence? You know I'm right Cool.
Quote: Deliberate misquoting again Jade. You are getting repetitive and boring now.
Nope looks fine to me. I realize you are trying to back peddle wildly now but what you said on this thread stands on the record and just unleashing the veto forum hordes to change the subject won't really cut it.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:30:00 -
[236]
Characterizing the people who post on this forum as "super players" is accurate, fair and balanced and not at all black-and-white thinking.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:34:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Kerfira on 03/08/2008 15:36:21
Originally by: Gnulpie I thought the CSM was there to a) raise CCP's attention to concerns of the playerbase and b) to look that another t20 won't happen again.
Obviously the b) part is completely cancelled out, so only part a) is left. To act as a focussing tool so that CCP can more easy identify the concerns of the playerbase.
On the first bit (a), it doesn't work as the current CSM is mostly made up of ego-trippers (there are one or two exceptions).
Thus the issues raised to CCP are not the ones that are a concern to the playerbase, but are the concerns of the playerbase that pass the highly individual filters of the CSM. The members of the CSM largely determine which matters are interesting by their own narrow interests, not what is good for the game. In RL terms, it is like Bill Gates was voted in for president, and solely focused on stuff that was to the benefit of Micro$oft while dismissing all other issues as unimportant...
The CSM was a bad idea when it was proposed, it was a bad idea when it was implemented, and it is certainly proving itself to be a VERY bad idea now.
Scrap the CSM and let CCP run the game as they want! They're the most neutral party you're likely to get as their interest is in a good game that attracts players. If CCP then decide they want player input, let THEM point out people who've both shown a marked interest and knowledge about the game, and who aren't total tools....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:44:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Moon Kitten Characterizing the people who post on this forum as "super players" is accurate, fair and balanced and not at all black-and-white thinking.
Agreed with dis heer Goon.
I have to say I'm quite disappointed. I didn't have any problem at all with you becoming CSM chair, by the way Jade. I actually had some hope for CSM. But you can't take criticism, even fair criticism, without getting riled up. And the personal attacks just make you look like a fool.
I never told Viper to use a quote that likely didn't exist against you. But I don't appreciate that you apparently still think I'd play a sympathy card with a real life condition of mine. That's enough of a quote to replace the one he couldn't find. That doesn't mean I haven't deserved the "emo" identifier as a silly, playful tag thrown around with friends. But it's clear to me that you can't get over the past.
Please learn some humility. It's a damn requirement for your position.
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Jita Jolene
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Posted - 2008.08.03 15:48:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Gnulpie
(deleted pyramid)
Uhm, if only 10% of the people are voting you can hardly talk about democratic elements.
It just means that 90% of Eve doesn't backup the CSM!!
So don't talk about any legitimation you have to talk for the players of Eve. Only a small clique voted for the CSM - for whatever reasons. (more deleted pyramid)
Such flawless logic, rich with humor. Have you ever considered stand-up?
Regardless of your bitter whine, the CSM do have just that, the legitimate role of representing the players. Hey, and guess what? Jade received the most votes and is the chairman. Any other 'solution' undermines a reasonably fair democratic election. |
Gone'Postal
Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors
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Posted - 2008.08.03 16:02:00 -
[240]
Jade is doing standup,
Leave it to it, its only in for what 6 months, then re-vote. (thank god, we might get someone not on a personal power trip)
-V8I-
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