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Speed Rebalanced - from a missile perspective

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Pretty Ivan	Posted - 2008.08.02 10:58:00 - [1] The purpose of this thread is to get a discussion/debate going regarding missiles and how the proposed rebalancing will affect them. For reference, from the Dev Blog: Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for. My understanding of the above is: Standard Missiles should hit standard frigates, e.g. no t2 mods, no rigs, no implants Heavy Missiles should hit standard cruisers, e.g. no t2 mods, no rigs, no implants Cruise Missiles should hit standard battleships, e.g. no t2 mods, no rigs, no implants Lets expand Heavy missiles: Heavy Missiles should hit standard frigates for low to medium damage Heavy Missiles should NOT hit t2-fitted, rigged frigates, e.g nano-Rifter Heavy Missiles should NOT hit standard interceptors Heavy Missiles should hit standard cruisers for close to full damage. Heavy Missiles should hit t2-fitted, rigged, cruisers for low damage, if any. Heavy Missiles should NOT hit pimped cruisers. (t2-fit, t2-rigs, snakes, gang mods) Heavy Missiles should hit standard battleships for full damage. Precision Heavy missile are designed to hit faster targets, but for reduced damage. Therefore: Precision Heavy Missiles should hit standard frigates for low to medium damage Precision Heavy Missiles should hit t2-fitted, rigged frigates, e.g nano-Rifter for low damage, if any Precision Heavy Missiles should NOT hit standard interceptors Precision Heavy Missiles should hit standard cruisers for close to full damage. Precision Heavy Missiles should hit t2-fitted, rigged, cruisers for medium damage. Precision Heavy Missiles should hit pimped cruisers for low damage, if any. (t2-fit, t2-rigs, snakes, gang mods) Precision Heavy Missiles should hit standard battleships for full damage. By the same token, Precision cruise missiles should: Precision Cruise Missiles should hit t2-fitted, rigged, cruisers for low damage. Precision Cruise Missiles should NOT hit pimped cruisers. (t2-fit, t2-rigs, snakes, gang mods) Precision Cruise Missiles should hit all battleships for full damage. If my understanding is correct, then I can support the changes, in terms of speed v. missile damage. If this can be achieved, then fast cruisers will avoid a lot, but not all missile damage. Pimped cruisers will avoid all cruise missile damage and most heavy missile damage, but will take some precision standard missile damage. Why is this acceptable? Because it allows speed-tanking to be an effective tank, while still allowing effective counters that are not speed-based. E.g. A Cerb loading precision lights will be able to inflict damage on a fast Vaga, without instapopping it. The Vaga can still choose to engage or retreat. Please discuss
Yukisa	Posted - 2008.08.02 12:04:00 - [2] This is my problem with the way missiles work. There's only 1 viable way to avoid dmg from them, simply fly too fast for them to hurt you. This discourages the use of afterburners, because you go slow, you die. If there was an effective EWAR against missiles like there are for turrets (disruptors), it would encourage mix setups and AB will be viable on smaller ships.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2008.08.02 15:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Amy Wang on 02/08/2008 15:14:14 What about turrets? With the proposed changes drones and missiles will hit even mwding targets of its own size class, while the same ship will still outrun the tracking of medium sized guns (not to mention causing its own turrets to miss), will that be balanced then? Surely doesnt look that way... Note that I am not proposing boosting turret tracking so they can hit mwding unwebbed targets of its own size class easily, I want to point out that the premise behind that missile/drone centered view is wrong.
Grim Vandal Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:23:00 - [4] Edited by: Grim Vandal on 02/08/2008 16:25:10 sorry wrong
Zikka Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.03 07:14:00 - [5] Have you read my thread http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=836137?
Draahk Chimera Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.03 08:36:00 - [6] I belive the intention of missiles is: Fury - Loose cap regen, gain damage on ships your class and above Standard - Loose nothing, gain nothing. Standard damage on ships your class and above. Precision - Loose own speed and some damage, gain hits on ships one class smaller. Current TQ: Fury - Loose cap regen, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Standard - No drawback, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Precision - Loose own speed hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Current sissy (I think ceptors as 1 class smaller then other frigs due to their role) Fury heavy - Loose cap regen, gain damage on other hacs. Tested, not on a nanoing vaga though. Standard heavy - Not tested Precision heavy - Loose own speed, did 3.7 on an orbiting crow. Not tested on frigs. Seems right to me, I dunno. Need more tests.
Adaera	Posted - 2008.08.03 09:33:00 - [7] This is coming from a major missile user here; I think an anti-missile ewar is a great idea. There should be a countermeasure against them - but speed should not be it. An EWAR counter would bring them in line with other weapon systems quite nicely I think.
Bobbechk Vigilante inc.	Posted - 2008.08.03 10:48:00 - [8] Originally by: Draahk Chimera I belive the intention of missiles is: Fury - Loose cap regen, gain damage on ships your class and above Standard - Loose nothing, gain nothing. Standard damage on ships your class and above. Precision - Loose own speed and some damage, gain hits on ships one class smaller. Current TQ: Fury - Loose cap regen, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Standard - No drawback, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Precision - Loose own speed hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Current sissy (I think ceptors as 1 class smaller then other frigs due to their role) Fury heavy - Loose cap regen, gain damage on other hacs. Tested, not on a nanoing vaga though. Standard heavy - Not tested Precision heavy - Loose own speed, did 3.7 on an orbiting crow. Not tested on frigs. Seems right to me, I dunno. Need more tests. why does everyone get stuck on these missiles all the time? now how mutch damage do you think a Barrage L hits a nano ship orbiting it at 20km for? or a Tremor M ? or a Hail S? all for 0 damage So why the **** should caldari have GUARANTEED damage to any ship at close to any range, when no other ship got it?.... learn to play the game or go play hello kitty online
Draahk Chimera Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.03 10:55:00 - [9] Originally by: Bobbechk Originally by: Draahk Chimera I belive the intention of missiles is: Fury - Loose cap regen, gain damage on ships your class and above Standard - Loose nothing, gain nothing. Standard damage on ships your class and above. Precision - Loose own speed and some damage, gain hits on ships one class smaller. Current TQ: Fury - Loose cap regen, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Standard - No drawback, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Precision - Loose own speed hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Current sissy (I think ceptors as 1 class smaller then other frigs due to their role) Fury heavy - Loose cap regen, gain damage on other hacs. Tested, not on a nanoing vaga though. Standard heavy - Not tested Precision heavy - Loose own speed, did 3.7 on an orbiting crow. Not tested on frigs. Seems right to me, I dunno. Need more tests. why does everyone get stuck on these missiles all the time? now how mutch damage do you think a Barrage L hits a nano ship orbiting it at 20km for? or a Tremor M ? or a Hail S? all for 0 damage So why the **** should caldari have GUARANTEED damage to any ship at close to any range, when no other ship got it?.... learn to play the game or go play hello kitty online Because I answered to the friggin op. Ive been playing for over 3 years now and am suficciantly gnarled I know things get nerfed-boosted-nerfed in an endless cykle. I can jam you, fire t2 missiles at you or outrun you in a vagabond, whatever you please. I am sick of all the whining and tears about this nerf. Claiming all missiles will instapop all ships suddenly is not true and I pointed to the fact that Ive tested heavy missiles' effectivness. Dont judge a book by its cover btw, I have more sp in minmatar then caldari.
reivol	Posted - 2008.08.03 11:55:00 - [10] just made a test with a fellow inty : - heavy missiles (precision, standard or fury) does make damage on a inty ... yes ! 0,2 dmg per missile exactly :) - however cruise missiles destroy the exact same inty in seconds ... There is actually an issue with cruise missiles doing dmg on <cruiser size ships, where they should'nt There is also an issue with heavy missile where even precision missiles don't do any dmg to inties ...

Yukisa	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Draahk Chimera I belive the intention of missiles is: Fury - Loose cap regen, gain damage on ships your class and above Standard - Loose nothing, gain nothing. Standard damage on ships your class and above. Precision - Loose own speed and some damage, gain hits on ships one class smaller. Current TQ: Fury - Loose cap regen, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Standard - No drawback, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Precision - Loose own speed hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Current sissy (I think ceptors as 1 class smaller then other frigs due to their role) Fury heavy - Loose cap regen, gain damage on other hacs. Tested, not on a nanoing vaga though. Standard heavy - Not tested Precision heavy - Loose own speed, did 3.7 on an orbiting crow. Not tested on frigs. Seems right to me, I dunno. Need more tests. 1. Inties are in a "class of their own" and not like regular frigate hulls, they SHOULD damn well be immune to fire from bigger ships. 2. Test without MWD on these ships, just AB. See how fast you die. CCP wants to remove the "pressure" to automatically pick MWD as the module of choice. Without changing missiles or putting in ewar for them, the pressure is still there. For example, against a turret ship, you CAN fit an AB and use a tracking disruptor to avoid fire from bigger ships. It's a great game mechanic when it works.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:08:00 - [12] Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 03/08/2008 12:10:18 another perspective; long range - low damage short range - high damage => up to 20k on an unrigged HAM drake / 300dps / 125m... ok'ish short range then needs tank/tackle etc. => up to 90km on an unrigged HM drake / 250dps / 93.75m... NOT ok long range doesnt "need" tank/tackle and can throw in a third BCU => 275 dps "but..but.. flight time...?" mhmmm... rate of impact != rate of fire (see doppler effect) - if something comes crawling towards you at... what's the speed these days? 2km/s? that's an increase of ~25% in dps which nicely covers the reduction from speed vs explosion velocity. or some other long-range comparisons (3 damage mods): - cerberus: 190km / 300dps of your choice (faction) / 1500 alpha (add 25% for the kinetic bonus) - zealot : 114+11km / 300dps 5:3 emp:thm (aurora incl 3 tcomps / 750 alpha) (hf targeting that far) - muninn: 114+23km / 200dps 5:3 expl:kin (tremor incl. 3 tcomps) / 1500 alpha - eagle: 206+16km / 180dps 1:1 kin:thm (spike incl. 3 range comps) / 700 alpha - ishtar: 101+40km / 300dps expl starting w/ 400m sig resolution (bouncer II on crack) - putting the gist back into logistics
Draahk Chimera Caldari Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Yukisa Originally by: Draahk Chimera I belive the intention of missiles is: Fury - Loose cap regen, gain damage on ships your class and above Standard - Loose nothing, gain nothing. Standard damage on ships your class and above. Precision - Loose own speed and some damage, gain hits on ships one class smaller. Current TQ: Fury - Loose cap regen, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Standard - No drawback, hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Precision - Loose own speed hit nanoships of all classes for 0.0 damage Current sissy (I think ceptors as 1 class smaller then other frigs due to their role) Fury heavy - Loose cap regen, gain damage on other hacs. Tested, not on a nanoing vaga though. Standard heavy - Not tested Precision heavy - Loose own speed, did 3.7 on an orbiting crow. Not tested on frigs. Seems right to me, I dunno. Need more tests. 1. Inties are in a "class of their own" and not like regular frigate hulls, they SHOULD damn well be immune to fire from bigger ships. 2. Test without MWD on these ships, just AB. See how fast you die. CCP wants to remove the "pressure" to automatically pick MWD as the module of choice. Without changing missiles or putting in ewar for them, the pressure is still there. For example, against a turret ship, you CAN fit an AB and use a tracking disruptor to avoid fire from bigger ships. It's a great game mechanic when it works. Signed and signed. Witch is exactly why the other day a CCP representative on Sissy wanted us to give opinions/suggestions I mailed him about this issue. That AB still isnt viable on a small ship. I suggested an implant or skill to further increase the speed of an AB and he told me it was forwarded.
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.03 13:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Roemy Schneider or some other long-range comparisons (3 damage mods): - cerberus: 190km / 300dps of your choice (faction) / 1500 alpha (add 25% for the kinetic bonus) - zealot : 114+11km / 300dps 5:3 emp:thm (aurora incl 3 tcomps / 750 alpha) (hf targeting that far) - muninn: 114+23km / 200dps 5:3 expl:kin (tremor incl. 3 tcomps) / 1500 alpha - eagle: 206+16km / 180dps 1:1 kin:thm (spike incl. 3 range comps) / 700 alpha - ishtar: 101+40km / 300dps expl starting w/ 400m sig resolution (bouncer II on crack) And at those ranges Cerb will only lose half its shield to turret HAC before his first missile hists, that's how overpowered it is _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Spurty Caldari Trader's Academy Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.08.03 15:05:00 - [15] Edited by: Spurty on 03/08/2008 15:05:18 Originally by: FlameGlow And at those ranges Cerb will only lose half its shield to turret HAC before his first missile hists, that's how overpowered it is I agree with this poster btw ^^ just want to add that those missiles are going to : a) insta-pop it (chuckle at nano whiners big nightmare) b) do 10-60 damage per missile ? Neither drones nor missiles are overpowered even on Sisi. Thats the truth and 'I wanna ship immune to all other ships bigger than it' is nonsense, no "I WIN" button for you. -- Two prostitutes standing on a street corner. One says to the other, "Have you ever been picked up by the fuzz?" The other replies, "No, but I've been swung around by the ****!"
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.03 16:06:00 - [16] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Roemy Schneider or some other long-range comparisons (3 damage mods): - cerberus: 190km / 300dps of your choice (faction) / 1500 alpha (add 25% for the kinetic bonus) - zealot : 114+11km / 300dps 5:3 emp:thm (aurora incl 3 tcomps / 750 alpha) (hf targeting that far) - muninn: 114+23km / 200dps 5:3 expl:kin (tremor incl. 3 tcomps) / 1500 alpha - eagle: 206+16km / 180dps 1:1 kin:thm (spike incl. 3 range comps) / 700 alpha - ishtar: 101+40km / 300dps expl starting w/ 400m sig resolution (bouncer II on crack) And at those ranges Cerb will only lose half its shield to turret HAC before his first missile hists, that's how overpowered it is which ones? those that can't reach it or the weakest one which it has two natural resistances against? - putting the gist back into logistics
Kyodai Koga Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.08.03 18:34:00 - [17] Missiles just need a specialized Ewar against them and they will be fine with minor tweaking on the explosion velocity due to the recent speed nerfs. Defenders are supposed to be a counter to missiles, but as it stands now they're poorly implemented and thus rarely used. Make defenders a midslot module working like any other Ewar mod and make it the matar EW instead of the target painter, you'll be killing four birds in one stone (matar recon utility post nano patch, long avoided question of matar ewar, the unusability of defender missiles and the missile counter topic). This module would simply, once activated on a missile user ship, launch countermeasures to destroy a fraction of the fired missiles. Also, just get rid of the ammo thing and put scripts for it, ie. a script to increase range at the expense of frequency (to counter heavy or cruise missiles fired from afar) or one to increase frequency (to catch lighter missiles with more rof) at the expense of range. This would reduce dps from target by a flat % which would need to be tweaked and balanced, but I think it makes sense in the actual Ewar scheme. Just an idea however, thought I could throw my 2 isks.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.08.03 21:13:00 - [18] Missiles hit my vaga on TQ. What am I doing wrong?
FlameGlow Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.03 21:47:00 - [19] Originally by: Kyodai Koga Make defenders a midslot module working like any other Ewar mod and make it the matar EW instead of the target painter, you'll be killing four birds in one stone (matar recon utility post nano patch, long avoided question of matar ewar, the unusability of defender missiles and the missile counter topic). Defenders are not ewar, they're defensive weapons. And target painter is not useless btw just underestimated - one painter is like a +1 tracking computer/tracking script for each fletmember and it's not even stacking penalized with whatever bonuses they already have. Don't try to pack everything into single defensive ewar scheme, learn to use what you've got. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Pretty Ivan	Posted - 2008.08.04 09:50:00 - [20] Thanks for all the feedback. Originally by: Zikka Have you read my thread Yes, I have now. It seems our understanding is roughly the same. Originally by: reivol just made a test with a fellow inty : - heavy missiles (precision, standard or fury) does make damage on a inty ... yes ! 0,2 dmg per missile exactly :) - however cruise missiles destroy the exact same inty in seconds ... There is actually an issue with cruise missiles doing dmg on <cruiser size ships, where they should'nt There is also an issue with heavy missile where even precision missiles don't do any dmg to inties ... Assuming the inty was using AB, that sounds like a problem. Even with a MWD, the inty should be fast enough to escape all damage. If not, something is wrong. Originally by: Draahk Chimera Signed and signed. Witch is exactly why the other day a CCP representative on Sissy wanted us to give opinions/suggestions I mailed him about this issue. That AB still isnt viable on a small ship. I suggested an implant or skill to further increase the speed of an AB and he told me it was forwarded. I can't get onto sisi, but can you post results from testing say an AF with AB against light, heavy and cruise missiles. My expectation would be that all will hit, but lights will do the most damage and cruise the least, per hit. To the other posters I would like to say that I realise that there are other associated issues too, but this thread is about missiles and how the proposed changes will affect them. My hope is that problems can be highlighted and brought to CCP's attention. Keep it coming

Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.04 10:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Roemy Schneider Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 03/08/2008 12:10:18 another perspective; long range - low damage short range - high damage => up to 20k on an unrigged HAM drake / 300dps / 125m... ok'ish short range then needs tank/tackle etc. => up to 90km on an unrigged HM drake / 250dps / 93.75m... NOT ok long range doesnt "need" tank/tackle and can throw in a third BCU => 275 dps "but..but.. flight time...?" mhmmm... rate of impact != rate of fire (see doppler effect) - if something comes crawling towards you at... what's the speed these days? 2km/s? that's an increase of ~25% in dps which nicely covers the reduction from speed vs explosion velocity. or some other long-range comparisons (3 damage mods): - cerberus: 190km / 300dps of your choice (faction) / 1500 alpha (add 25% for the kinetic bonus) - zealot : 114+11km / 300dps 5:3 emp:thm (aurora incl 3 tcomps / 750 alpha) (hf targeting that far) - muninn: 114+23km / 200dps 5:3 expl:kin (tremor incl. 3 tcomps) / 1500 alpha - eagle: 206+16km / 180dps 1:1 kin:thm (spike incl. 3 range comps) / 700 alpha - ishtar: 101+40km / 300dps expl starting w/ 400m sig resolution (bouncer II on crack) then how this drake is doing 710 dps with nearl 100k ehp? :D http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg
Archimedes XVII	Posted - 2008.08.04 11:06:00 - [22] How about... - Tech1 one missiles only hit tech 1 ships, with tech 1 mods. - Tech 2 missiles hit tech 2 ships, with tech 2 mods. Or why train tech 2 missiles if all the tech2 ship pilots can run away? I thought invulnerability was the PROBLEM behind the nano-nerf?
Damned Force Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.04 13:09:00 - [23] Edited by: Damned Force on 04/08/2008 13:09:27 just 1 word: Idiots
DogSlime Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.04 21:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl then how this drake is doing 710 dps with nearl 100k ehp? :D http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg [/quote Hopefully you're joking. For one thing, all the modules are overheated to hell... which means that the launchers might get a couple of rounds off before they burn out. Also, the fit doesn't work - there isn't enough powergrid for it (as shown on the right side of the EFT window). Sorry if this was humour and I missed it, but a drake simply can't do that in the game environment.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.04 22:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl then how this drake is doing 710 dps with nearl 100k ehp? :D http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=drake2js3.jpg 5 hobbies, kin bonus, faction ammo, 5% missile implants and above all: heat - on both weapons and invuls worst case, yes. but i don't find 40 seconds of 20km carnage all that realistic - putting the gist back into logistics
Maglietto	Posted - 2008.08.04 23:03:00 - [26] Originally by: Yukisa If there was an effective EWAR against missiles like there are for turrets (disruptors), it would encourage mix setups and AB will be viable on smaller ships. Defender missiles... :D hope they'll got some attention as well... maybe auto-reactivation...

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