| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Topic |
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
    |
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:38:00 -
[1]
before polycarbs existed were hacs utterly useless? in my opinion no...
before poly carbs, if you had a vega doing 3.5 to 4k a sec it was more than exceptable, so why is this all of a sudden "OMG THE SHIPS WORTHLESS"?
this is a serious point, i want to disscuss and LEARN rather than just be flamed, if you can rebutt this point sensibly id be glad to hear it. and raise my counter arguement if i have one.
Personally this is going to mean my nano ishtar and my nano cerb (with snake impants) will no longer be usefull as a speed tank. still tho the cerb will be better at hit and run than a drake due to allign times, and the ishtar better than the mrym and the domi for the same reasons? (especially now there is a agil bonus with some mods that previously didnt have that).
/Theo
Neotheo
Dark Materials
Linkage
|
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
The Grim Reapers
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:43:00 -
[2]
Greater mass, less agility, can't pulse MWD proper, scram turning off your MWD => Vaga way worse than it was pre-polycarbs.
 |
Gunner Chick
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:47:00 -
[3]
They won't be, its just pre nerf doomsday rants.
happens everytime
|
King Dave
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:48:00 -
[4]
Vaga's could also use stabs then if i remember correctly....
(May have been a short period inbetween, where there were no stabs or rigs, can't rememeber)
|
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 16:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 02/08/2008 16:53:30
Edited by: NeoTheo on 02/08/2008 16:53:17
 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Greater mass, less agility, can't pulse MWD proper, scram turning off your MWD => Vaga way worse than it was pre-polycarbs.
now the mass thing has escaped me, i assume the vega has had its mass increased then, well thats not greta i have to admit, but as i dont fly one i aint checked on SiSi.
ill go compare the Cerb and the Ishtard now ;)
EDIT; ohhh hang on, your talking about the mass reduction of the modules,... well hang one dude, thats kind a mute point as thats what the poly carbs did, and i am talking abuot time before polys, also your agility should actaully get better right? due to the fact some mods that previously didnt do agility now do it.
/Theo
Neotheo
Dark Materials
Linkage
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 17:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gunner Chick
They won't be, its just pre nerf doomsday rants.
happens everytime
QFT. Its the same bullshit the noobs pour out every nerf. Last time people were whining about 140km pulse apocs dominating eve. Where are they? I cant see fleets full of these so called OP pulse apocs. Same deal here, after nerf IT WILL BE JUST FINE.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
TheEndofTheWorld
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 17:14:00 -
[7]
Before the nerf we had the 5 stab vaga. 2-3 wcs, 2-3 gyrostab
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Eve Defence Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 17:19:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/08/2008 17:18:59
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
Edited by: TheEndofTheWorld on 02/08/2008 17:15:35
Before the nerf we had the 5 stab vaga. 2-3 wcs, 2-3 gyrostab
the agility hacs have over bcs is too small, no point spending 100M for that...
Remember that people even were whining about the WCS-nerf? In 2 years we'll look back at this nerf and also laugh at people who are QQing today.
-----------------------------------------
[Video] I'm a soldier, so remember the name |
Aleus Stygian
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 17:35:00 -
[9]
I think I'll just voice my opinion outright, before making a thread on this or something:
They haven't nerfed nanos enough.
It's the simple truth that even the damn ships meant to counter the speed tanks can't catch them anymore. And when you can push a battleship past 4 km/s you know that something is clearly wrong here. As far as I am concerned, taking into mind the interface and the technology and pretty much simply the way that EVE is meant to be played in gang and fleet battles, nanos and speed tanks are unbalanced and disproportionately powerful.
Get a grip, and realize that the devs are simply trying their hardest to even out the game.
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 18:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: NeoTheo
before polycarbs existed were hacs utterly useless? in my opinion no...
before poly carbs, if you had a vega doing 3.5 to 4k a sec it was more than exceptable, so why is this all of a sudden "OMG THE SHIPS WORTHLESS"?
this is a serious point, i want to disscuss and LEARN rather than just be flamed, if you can rebutt this point sensibly id be glad to hear it. and raise my counter arguement if i have one.
Personally this is going to mean my nano ishtar and my nano cerb (with snake impants) will no longer be usefull as a speed tank. still tho the cerb will be better at hit and run than a drake due to allign times, and the ishtar better than the mrym and the domi for the same reasons? (especially now there is a agil bonus with some mods that previously didnt have that).
/Theo
Exactly!
These nanotards are complete ******s when it comes to remembering...assuming they played before the nano age.
-----------------
 Friends Forever |
|
CoLe Blackblood
Transnational Speedway League
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:01:00 -
[11]
Just get rid of Polycarbs and theres a sufficient nanonerf. Nanos were nerfed 2 years ago in case noone remembers, because of the introduction of Rigs(that enabled ludicrous speed)....
 |
Captator
Universal Securities
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:02:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Captator on 02/08/2008 19:03:03
I will attempt to answer in a reasoned manner, without overly weighting what I say towards my opinion.
Before polycarbs existed, as has already been mentioned, WCS didn't cause any negative effects, so most vagabonds and other HACs fitted 1+, giving them a better chance of bugging out if things hit the fan (this is how speed is used most atm incidentally).
The stab nerf came, and they were no longer viable on the ships, as they need the fast lock time to pin down targets before they have the common sense to warp off, and most of them don't fare too well inside webrange.
Around this time the HP buff occured, in which BCs got a ~50% HP boost, and BS a ~30% HP boost, while HACs got a ~10% HP boost. This changed the balance of a fight, because whereas before a HAC could perhaps get away with a 1600mm plate fit (for example ishtar/zealot/sac) they didn't have sufficient HP relative to their target ships (usually ratting BS/BC) to outlast them.
Rigs too had an effect - trimarks and extenders pushing buffers even higher, and nano pumps/accelerators/solidifiers pushing active tanking either above or further above the HACs damage band (peak for most is ~500, excepting deimos (~600), which had a lot more troubles than most of the others).
the HP buff and the tank rigs combined to result in it taking a lot longer for HACs to kill targets, and so they needed another edge, particularly as this longer time meant longer for backup to arrive, which is where speed came into its own.
The last few nails in most non-nano HAC coffins, were the introductions of the tier 2 BCs. Formerly, the HACs did more damage than the tier 1s in a similar config, providing a reason to fly them preferentially in the tank/gank role, but the tier 2s (especially given the massive BC HP boost) out damaged, out buffered, or out tanked the HACs.
So before all these changes a non-nano HAC was a lot more potent relative to cheaper more insurable ships of similar size, while being a lot closer in HP/tank stakes. In the current climate (especially faction missiles, and with all the other rigs unchanged) I think that the HAC is going to be nearly useless outside of far more specialist roles than currently, as there is not much reason to fly them over tier 2 BC, or a BS, especially in gang.
To pick up on another of your post's points a mass reduction module (nanos and polys as currently on tq) gives an agility boost. On sisi, there are only modules that affect speed/agility or a combination of the 2, the mass attribute is no longer modifiable, this introduces an extra level of stacking for speed fit ships (currently OD affect speed polys affect mass so they don't stack, on sisi, OD are same but polys affect speed and agility, so they stack with both OD and istabs).
Hopefully that was not too biased an explanation.
edited: clarity
|
Aleus Stygian
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 19:12:00 -
[13]
Kudos to Captator for the concise and clever summary.
Now, what should be proposed as a solution to this? Personally, my suggestions include reducing the efficiency of or removing MWDs, introducing new types of ECM, preferably ones that would be more effective against missiles and missile ships, or drones, and possibly boosting the health of HACs slightly, or introducing a new class of HACs meant to fly faster and carry only two or three main guns, but of the Large variety.
Then again, we must not forget that Cruisers are the middle-children of the spacelanes, and are not to be able to take down much larger ships alone without some shrewd strategy. Of course, this sort of warrants that they should be somewhat better against smaller ships than they are, but with the MWD/extreme speed problem out of the way, that might improve just a little...
|
Captator
Universal Securities
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aleus Stygian
Kudos to Captator for the concise and clever summary.
Now, what should be proposed as a solution to this? Personally, my suggestions include reducing the efficiency of or removing MWDs, introducing new types of ECM, preferably ones that would be more effective against missiles and missile ships, or drones, and possibly boosting the health of HACs slightly, or introducing a new class of HACs meant to fly faster and carry only two or three main guns, but of the Large variety.
Then again, we must not forget that Cruisers are the middle-children of the spacelanes, and are not to be able to take down much larger ships alone without some shrewd strategy. Of course, this sort of warrants that they should be somewhat better against smaller ships than they are, but with the MWD/extreme speed problem out of the way, that might improve just a little...
I wonder what would happen if you gave them logistics ship sized sig radii, for example a guardian's sig without anything applied (gang bonus/halo set w/e) is 70/455m3 (with/without MWD on, AB is same as without MWD), and a zealot's is 125/812.5m3). This way you could signature tank nicely (instead of speed tank, this one means you still slow and catchable, just hard to hit, and also adds yet another reason to use painters), and the signature affects both gun tracking and missile damage formula, similar to speed.
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC
G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:23:00 -
[15]
iv tested vaga, you cant really go fast enough in orbit to avoid enough damage from missiles, you die fast
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Stab Wounds
Caldari
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Red Thunder
iv tested vaga, you cant really go fast enough in orbit to avoid enough damage from missiles, you die fast
missiles were never made to be speed tanked
|
hodgebobble
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:52:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
turrets were never made to be speed tanked
See what I did there?
|
Nathanial Victor
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 20:57:00 -
[18]
ya know what really grinds my gears?
"one more spam thread will get you a warning.
- Thanks Hutch. "
isn't a warning of a warning a warning? or just a warning of a warning? didnt he just get 'the warning'?
my head hurts |
Yar0
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:06:00 -
[19]
this nerf is going to hit hard ppl, simply because when you used nano tactics you could operate your small gang in hostile territory. Even after the nerf it will be possible, but then ppl will you log off tactics.
With nano you could try to engage bigger blob, fly away, finaly play with the hostile gang. After this patch there will be only one option - scout and if you will see bigger blob then you have (or if they have more falcons they you do) the only chance to survive is to log off. Believe me log off tactics will put ppl off way more then nano ships.
|
Aleus Stygian
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:07:00 -
[20]
Captator's suggestion touches upon one of my points once again. That would be a good way to make painters useful. And I also think that there should be some sort of self-affecting signature-reducing ECM, purposefully designed by the Minmatar, since they realize that with their inferior processing and transmitters they can't really affect other ships, but have to turn to masking or tampering with their own ships for advantage instead. Might be a good way to actually make the Bellicose useful as well...
And I think hodgebobble is right. And that's just another reason to add some sort of missile scrambler, because defender missiles just don't cut it. Not by a long shot.
|
|
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Remember that people even were whining about the WCS-nerf? In 2 years we'll look back at this nerf and also laugh at people who are QQing today.
Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe nano-pilots are complaining because their form of fum in eve has been removed?
I would quit if I was minmatar. They have the worst weapon types and now the worst ships and the worst recons 
|
Aleus Stygian
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Remember that people even were whining about the WCS-nerf? In 2 years we'll look back at this nerf and also laugh at people who are QQing today.
Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe nano-pilots are complaining because their form of fum in eve has been removed?
I would quit if I was minmatar. They have the worst weapon types and now the worst ships and the worst recons
Well, CCP will just have to compensate for that. I suggest new types of ECM, a few new ships and hulls, and switching artillery for some other heavy weapon like a nuclear slag cannon that does DOT or somesuch, or adding a third weapon type to projectile, hybrid and energy classes all.
Because nano***gotry has to go.
|
Rumai Ning
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Remember that people even were whining about the WCS-nerf? In 2 years we'll look back at this nerf and also laugh at people who are QQing today.
Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe nano-pilots are complaining because their form of fum in eve has been removed?
I would quit if I was minmatar. They have the worst weapon types and now the worst ships and the worst recons
They have good whiners, though.
But seriously, can I just get what I want? |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
VSP Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 21:55:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Aleus Stygian
Well, CCP will just have to compensate for that. I suggest new types of ECM, a few new ships and hulls, and switching artillery for some other heavy weapon like a nuclear slag cannon that does DOT or somesuch, or adding a third weapon type to projectile, hybrid and energy classes all.
Because nano***gotry has to go.
Or just, you know, fixing projectiles and making their ships have less mass instead of increasing it.
|
Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC
G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 22:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Stab Wounds
Originally by: Red Thunder
iv tested vaga, you cant really go fast enough in orbit to avoid enough damage from missiles, you die fast
missiles were never made to be speed tanked
stab wounds - you are a month old noob, stfu until you know what you are talking about
if missiles were never ment to be speed tanked, then why the hell did ccp even make an equation to determine their damage at speed?
Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Aleus Stygian
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 22:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Or just, you know, fixing projectiles and making their ships have less mass instead of increasing it.
Projectiles are fine; autocannons have superb tracking and can select their damage. There's no reason for change there. The 'space artillery' though has to go. Not just because it's f*cking ridiculous, when you take the distances and ballistic properties into account, but because without some way to cause residual damage, there's no reason for Minmatar ships to actually employ hit-and-run tactics, instead of just trying to keep out of the range of other ships. Futilely, one might add, because of their inferior range.
I say, make a nuclear slag-type of weapon. Like a railgun, only slower and a lot dirtier. I mean, Minnie ships already use fission for their reactors. Just take some waste products from there and mix it with a charge, and shoot it at your enemies. And then you let it cause residual damage over time. An excellent way to give Minmatar ships a reason to hightail it for a while before coming back to crunch again.
You are right about keeping them at low mass though.
|
NeoTheo
Dark Materials
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 22:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Captator
Hopefully that was not too biased an explanation.
edited: clarity
Rather annoyingly ive read this just as i am about to hit the sack as the missus is all over me to stop "geeking", this is a EXCELLENT post mate.
personally i think there is still a place for HAC's all be it amonst the rich, (your point about t2 BC's is just so right - but i am caldari, i actaully generally think he istar is better than the myrm in most situations).
ill come back and pick this up in the morning, but my question to you now is, on the *ASSUMPTION* that the speed mechanic in the game was generally broken, how do we make HACs better for people without making them pwn mobiles.
personally i dont think the issue is with the ships, its actually with the general invention cost in todays eve economic environment.
ill get back to this tomorrow cause i really want to add to your post, it historys it all very well (some i dont agree with, some i do).
/Neo. ;)
thumbs up for a excellent post bro.
Neotheo
Dark Materials
Linkage
|
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 22:24:00 -
[28]
Heavy assault ships (with the exception of the snipers) without speed are in the same boat as the assault ships. Not quite as good as, and a lot more expensive than, the tech 1 version of the hull size right above them (for assault ships tech 1 cruisers, for heavy assaults tech 1 battlecruisers), and with no advantages to make up for it.
The reason people were using them before it became popular to speed fit them (after the last "nano-nerf") was that they were status symbols. They weren't as common as they are today and were a lot more expensive (before invention). Using one showed off your wealth.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
We are pleased to aim!
Or was that the other way around?
|
Cpt Constantinus
Celestial Janissaries
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 22:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Heavy assault ships (with the exception of the snipers) without speed are in the same boat as the assault ships. Not quite as good as, and a lot more expensive than, the tech 1 version of the hull size right above them (for assault ships tech 1 cruisers, for heavy assaults tech 1 battlecruisers), and with no advantages to make up for it.
The reason people were using them before it became popular to speed fit them (after the last "nano-nerf") was that they were status symbols. They weren't as common as they are today and were a lot more expensive (before invention). Using one showed off your wealth.
Hacs are still considerably faster than a battlecruiser and some of em even have a realy nice bonus. If i have the choice between a Zealot and a Harbinger then i will almost always choose the former, even after the nano-nerf.
 |
Aleus Stygian
|
Posted - 2008.08.02 22:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Captator
I wonder what would happen if you gave them logistics ship sized sig radii, for example a guardian's sig without anything applied (gang bonus/halo set w/e) is 70/455m3 (with/without MWD on, AB is same as without MWD), and a zealot's is 125/812.5m3). This way you could signature tank nicely (instead of speed tank, this one means you still slow and catchable, just hard to hit, and also adds yet another reason to use painters), and the signature affects both gun tracking and missile damage formula, similar to speed.
Again, let me say that I agree with Neo. Now, on to the subject...
Are you proposing that these changes would be made while cutting down on the speed of MWDs, or just be implemented as they are? Because personally, I believe that much of the fault simply lies with the usage of MWDs and not just ABs. When you take a single value, like speed or firepower, and tweak it up so extremely, it's only natural that people will come to focus on it and try and find ways to exploit it, rather than vary their ships and try to find the little niches, tricks and clevernesses to them. IMO, that's a far greater problem than any 'inferiority' to battleships on part of the HACs...
The signature radius reduction though, is a good idea. And perhaps it can be combined with some sort of ECM module or stealth plating that reduces armor and signature both? Possibly, one could make tracking disruptors better, or make them affect missiles as well?
|
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |