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armor tank vs passive tank on myrmidon.

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Author	Topic
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.08.02 16:56:00 - [1] I have been messing a little bit with EFT, in search of a pve perma or semi-perma tank for a myrmidon to be used against guristas. Assuming a damage 60% kinetic and 40% thermic, al lvl V skills, the results have been pretty surprising: Armor tank myrmidon: lows: 3X MAR II, 2X kinetic hardener II, 1X thermic hardener II. mids: 5X cap recharger II. highs: 1X med nos II, whatever. rigs: 3X auxiliary nano pump I This setup can tank a peak of 930 effective hp, but is not capstable, even considering the NOS. I haven't used the nanobot accelerators because that would make the whole setup much more cap unstable. Passive tank myrmidon: lows: 6X shield power relay II. mids: 3X large shield extender II, 1X active kinetic shield hardener II, 1X passive thermic shield hardener. rigs: 3X core defense purger I This setup can tank 1070 effective hp, completely capstable and leaves space for all the six turrets. Or, if a NOS is fitted, the mids might be changed as: mids: 1X large shield extender II, 2X active kinetic shield hardener II, 2X active thermic shield hardener. This setup can tank 1233 effective hp, it is capstable and can still field the same firepower of the above armor tank. Conclusion: WTH?? I thought the myrmidon was supposed to be armor tanked? Is there some trick in armor tanking that I am missing here?
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:11:00 - [2] WOW dude pls learn about effective hp and tankable dps. You don't tank EHP and you don't have a 900 dps buffer... and passive tanking the myrm is nothing new, its always been a better shield tanker but it does less damage as a shield tanker because it cant run guns and mentioning not being able to run guns can that tripple rep setup with no ccc run for more than a minute?!
Dzajic Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:12:00 - [3] Nope, no tricks, other than that for PVP you generally want all your midslots, so armor tank, going in low slots is usually preferred. However, it would appear that active armor tanks are mostly useless in PVP in anything other than nonexistent 1v1, that armor buffer tanks are much more commonly used. Active and passive shield tanks both fare much better than active armor tanks. As far as I saw and heard. Still, its silly for a ship with armortanking bonus to be able to have much more sustainable and much stronger shield tank.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:19:00 - [4] Edited by: Wil Smithx on 02/08/2008 17:24:18 Originally by: Dzajic Nope, no tricks, other than that for PVP you generally want all your midslots, so armor tank, going in low slots is usually preferred. However, it would appear that active armor tanks are mostly useless in PVP in anything other than nonexistent 1v1, that armor buffer tanks are much more commonly used. Active and passive shield tanks both fare much better than active armor tanks. As far as I saw and heard. Still, its silly for a ship with armortanking bonus to be able to have much more sustainable and much stronger shield tank. Theres been a damned lot of whines about how overpowered passive shield tanking is... (truth be told I think shield tanking in general is overpowered) and the myrm was nerfed heavily because of it (cos it could outdamage and outtank BS). Since you want to maximise gank on your ship for pve I would say go armour tanking and lol, 2 reppers, 2 active hardeners then eanmm/damage control/mag stab, 4/5 cap rechargers with an afterburner if you want, then prob best to have railguns in highs. Edit: allow me to direct you here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=833981
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:23:00 - [5] Originally by: Wil Smithx WOW dude pls learn about effective hp and tankable dps. You don't tank EHP and you don't have a 900 dps buffer... Ok, ok, wrong terms there, but in essence that's true? Quote: and passive tanking the myrm is nothing new, its always been a better shield tanker but it does less damage as a shield tanker because it cant run guns Well, what you say would be right for any other ship, but not the myrmi. The myrmi has no bonus to any kind of guns, so there is nothing compelling you to fit hybrid. You can fit projectiles and have no cap issues and lose no turret slots.
Wil Smithx Minmatar Suns Of Korhal	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:26:00 - [6] Originally by: Space Wanderer Originally by: Wil Smithx WOW dude pls learn about effective hp and tankable dps. You don't tank EHP and you don't have a 900 dps buffer... Ok, ok, wrong terms there, but in essence that's true? Quote: and passive tanking the myrm is nothing new, its always been a better shield tanker but it does less damage as a shield tanker because it cant run guns Well, what you say would be right for any other ship, but not the myrmi. The myrmi has no bonus to any kind of guns, so there is nothing compelling you to fit hybrid. You can fit projectiles and have no cap issues and lose no turret slots. But everybody knows projectiles suck lol. You will do more damage with hybrids so long as you can survive with aan armour tank.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:31:00 - [7] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/08/2008 17:34:06 Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/08/2008 17:33:32 Originally by: Wil Smithx so long as you can survive with aan armour tank. Which is exacly my point. :-) BTW: fixed terminology inconsistency above.
Verzerrt Caldari Precision Engineering	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:45:00 - [8] Edited by: Verzerrt on 02/08/2008 17:46:10 Ugh. This is what I use on my Gurista ratting brutix. [Brutix, Rat] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Large Shield Extender II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Vespa II x5 Does ~700dps. You will rip through BS spawns like nobodies business, only on occasion will you have to warp off. My trick to getting in range faster, go to your favorite belts, mwd to the general area where they spawn and bookmark it. That way next time you'll warp with 10km or closer when they respawn. You can use this setup on a myrm as well I'm sure, but with 1 more low and mid slot. Have fun. Black holes are where I tried to divide by zero.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:54:00 - [9] "Conclusion: WTH?? I thought the myrmidon was supposed to be armor tanked? Is there some trick in armor tanking that I am missing here?" It used to have an even stronger shield tank then now. I think the passive is better more so if you fly in gangs and someone has a mindlink implant. Even stronger tank. Passive can also save you from lag. Though I would aim for a 650dps tank and fit 3 damage mods. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.02 17:58:00 - [10] Then i would rather use a harbie to rat. Without doubt when looking at tanked dps a passive shield tank on myrm is better than active armor tank. (i usually do one plate and one repper on myrm, but dual rep setup also has its uses). However i have never seen the advantage of a passive shield tank: Missions: lvl 3 missions can be done without problems on armor tank, why would i do lvl 4s in myrm? PVP: lacks mwd and ewar. And your cap regen sucks so several long warps might be a problem. It is probably allready a problem to perma run invuln fields. Okay when just gatecamping it has its uses, but only when you are in a group. And since you are in a group anyway i would just get a plated vexor and do almost same dps and lose much less when a equal sized opponent force comes. (and when that happens your dps tanked is useless anyway on your myrm).

Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.08.02 19:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Furb Killer However i have never seen the advantage of a passive shield tank: Missions: PVP: Soloing DED plexes lvl 4.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.02 19:53:00 - [12] Okay you win, for everyone who does that get a passive shield tanked myrm
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.02 20:13:00 - [13] If you're fighting NPCs, going for an armour fit offers the option of using speed to reduce damage. Since you're already modding for high cap regen, you could try to push that regen even further, fit an AB and semi-speedtank BS NPCs. Slap some blasters (or autocannons, if your cap skills aren't up to snuff) and get in close and personal with the bigger ships. Unless they're very bunched up, this will only nullify one enemy ship, but depending on what ship you choose, that could be a fairly big chunk of incoming DPS that is now gone. You also increase your damage output a fair bit this way, and you only really need that extra damage against BC- and BS-sized targets anyway – your drones will wftpwn anything smaller before your guns make any difference.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.03 08:56:00 - [14] Edited by: Pottsey on 03/08/2008 08:59:45 Passive shield tanks also offer the option of speed. Just use 1 or 2 PDS modules and you can speed around a fair bit. No loseing speed from his auxiliary nano pumps. Used to always fit an AB myself untill warp to 0km came. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Artemis Rose Odd End of the Universe	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:30:00 - [15] The 3 Medium reppers is why your armor tank setup is not cap stable. Using 2x MAR 4x Resist would help you there. But yes, in general, if you use EVERY slot for tanking (also assuming a decent amount of Mids and Lows), passive shield tanking usually beats armor tanking. Its not realistic outside of EFT though. __________________________________________________ Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat.
steveid Haiduken	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:36:00 - [16] If your tanking guristas you should see what the ishtar can passive tank. Any lvl 4 no probs with better damage and thats with an afterburner for those long gate runs. Invest tbh :D.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.08.03 12:51:00 - [17] Edited by: P''uck on 03/08/2008 12:54:47 just pointing out again: 2x MAR, moar resists, probably aux pumps I bet it works better than 3 mar and crap resists in 99% of the time. edit: 2 mars i get about 800something tanked gurista dps. and you can actually warp around, without killing your cap! means: put some pdus instead of sprs on that passive setup so it's useful, then compare em again.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.03 13:39:00 - [18] "Its not realistic outside of EFT though." Why not? I have been useing Passive shield tanks for PvE for a very long time without any problem. Why is it not realistic? Both active and passive without problems, just use which ever one you perfew. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Artemis Rose Odd End of the Universe	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Pottsey "Its not realistic outside of EFT though." Why not? I have been useing Passive shield tanks for PvE for a very long time without any problem. Why is it not realistic? Both active and passive without problems, just use which ever one you perfew. Using every slot (mid/low/rig) to state that a passive Shield tanking is superior to armor tanking is not realistic, nothing against passive tanking at all. To tank that plex, yes a passive shield Myrm would do better, but there is a whole host of possibilities where armor tanking would be preferred (all of PvP would LOVE to have those 5 midslots for something else as an example) __________________________________________________ Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.03 20:54:00 - [20] 4 actually because one will be cap booster ;) For pvp you want those mid slots. For pve passive shield tank is better, but usually useless since most times you dont need to tank that much damage.

Xalib Zondo Cloak and Daggers HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.08.03 21:02:00 - [21] I have a passive shield tanked Myrm, I use it for PvP and find it very effective used in the right situations. As a bait ship for instance, it works wonders. I was bumped 30km off a outpost by a nano gang that included an Ishtar loaded with Beserker II, they tried break me for 20 minutes until they ran out of drones then gave up and left. I have also found it to be good sitting in gate camps. Would I take one out on ops or a roam, no, I would take a different ship. But like a lot of Eve, you fit your ship to suit, and you also take a ship to suit, the task at hand.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2008.08.03 21:26:00 - [22] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 03/08/2008 21:30:00 Originally by: P'uck 2x MAR, moar resists, probably aux pumps I bet it works better than 3 mar and crap resists in 99% of the time. yes and no. It works better in the sense that it absorbs an average damage superior to the 3 MAR, cap stable. But the peak of a 2MAR is inferior to the peak of a 3MAR... which is inferior to the average/peak of passive tank. Which was my point. Quote: edit: 2 mars i get about 800something tanked gurista dps. and you can actually warp around, without killing your cap! means: put some pdus instead of sprs on that passive setup so it's useful, then compare em again. Why should I? That setup IS completely capstable. Quote: oh and in the end, you just have two brick setups. or damage sponges. and one is better than being a brick than the other one. oh noes! What I think is crazy is that a brick setup built on native bonuses of the ship is inferior to a brick setup built from a non-bonused system... Also, many armor tank apologists in this thread seem to think that an armor tank setup leaves you more slots available. That's true only in PVP where armor tank can be fueled by cap boosters. But in case you need a permatank (as stated in the OP...) you still need both the lows (for tank) and the mids (for cap rechargers). Not much different. And although 4 mids are enough to make the armor tank setup ALMOST capstable, a passive tanks that uses only 4 mids STILL is better. Don't just trust my word, check your numbers.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.03 22:17:00 - [23] Edited by: Pottsey on 03/08/2008 22:18:55 "Using every slot (mid/low/rig) to state that a passive Shield tanking is superior to armor tanking is not realistic, nothing against passive tanking at all." I wasnt useing every slot to state that passive shield tanking is superior. In fact I said your better off fitting 3 damage mods over tanking slots. The reasons I gave for passive tanking being superior are true even when you dont use all your slots. In the end it doesnt matter which tanking method you use as both work without problems. Since T2 SPR's passive tanks do not need to use up every mid and low slot. I find it crasy people always say passive tanks need 100% of slots on tanks. A 650dps tank is all you need for lvl 4 missions anything over that is over tanking. All these 800, 1000 or even 1500 dps tanks are overkill, they would be much better off boosting damage output and lowering the tank for lvl 4 missions. I find a passive tank with damage mods a much better option over a cap stable active amour tank for PvE. Sometimes with the the free PG and cap I ended up with higher DPS setups and better tanks with passive tanks over active as I can fit the best guns without PG problems. Its hard to have a decent active amour tank on a battleship with 3 damage mods and a full row of 425mm T2 turrets. Yet its not a problem for passive tank. "What I think is crazy is that a brick setup built on native bonuses of the ship is inferior to a brick setup built from a non-bonused system..." Its not that crasy when you consdier Gallantes background of being at the forfront of passive tanks. They always have the faster sheild rehcarge and higher HP regen. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.04 01:22:00 - [24] Edited by: Gimpb on 04/08/2008 01:22:48 The myrm can have a plenty stiff tank with armor or shield, but having a passive shield tank involving lots of shield power relays is just begging for frustration. It's important to realize the limitations of a passive shield tank, it pretty much takes all your slots and rigs and hoses your cap to the point where you'll have serious issues with anything that uses cap... especially warping. If you want to have an AB, use hybrids/lasers, or warp more than 30 AU, armor will probably outperform shield for you. (this is from someone who worked through Lv3 missions in a passive tanked myrm)
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.08.04 07:41:00 - [25] Edited by: Pottsey on 04/08/2008 07:44:49 "It's important to realize the limitations of a passive shield tank, it pretty much takes all your slots and rigs and hoses your cap to the point where you'll have serious issues with anything that uses cap... especially warping." Can people please stop comeing out with this rubbish. Takes all your slots has not been true in years, hoses cap it a choice you dont have to do that, you can use PDS or Flux modules. I never have cap problems and I use railguns. I was doing missions ok back when we only had T1 mid slots, T1 low slots and no rigs as a passive tank. Passive tanks did need all slots back then. But since then we have had T2 mid slots which saved more slots, then we got T2 low slots saveing more slots, then rigs saveing more slots. Lastly we had the gang skill and implant. Yet people still say passive tanks need all slots. Why? Surly as the tank modules get better pilots should put in the new tank modules, keep the tank at the old lvl that is ok for missions that use's the new free slots for usefull none tanking modules. T2 Purgers alone should give you 3 none tanking slots. As for warping my Domi with 7 SPR's could warp 6 odd jumps on avarge more then enough. With 2 PDS and 5 SPR's no problem what so ever it could warp and jump 50+ times and still keep going. Most ships have more cap and less SPR's then the Domi. How can you have warping problems unless you have low skills? ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)

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