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Ditra Vorthran
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.20 16:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It is not a bug, and it is not an exploit. The GM simply did not understand game mechanics well enough to comment.
-Liang
Sorry Liang, a criminal doesn't get to decide when he's broken the law. (Not that I equate PvPers with criminals, but the analogy fits.)
It's an exploit because CCP says it's an exploit, nothing more. |
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.03.20 16:51:00 -
[62] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Misanth wrote:Not sure why the OP compares this situation with bumping and regular webbing. It's clearly a different matter, as bumping was for the longest time (and is), a viable mechanic to stop people from warping. Webbing people has always been a way to help them warp faster. Both above have counters; while this new issue at hand is a glitch in a mechanic that function like a warp scrambler, even tho it's a web.
I think it's harsh by CCP to make it a bannable offense tho, it's clearly an existing mechanic that doesn't work as it should, but as it's a) obvious what happens and b) not very hard to counter (scout before undock), it just create unecessary fuss to try to purge people using it at present.
Should it be fixed/removed? Yeah, it's clear it's not intended. Bannable offense? No, that's tad excessive. Webbing has also long been a way to make people take longer to get into warp. Its very noticeable when you fly something like a Vaga or nano Ishtar and you get hammered by the old 90% webs. You simply don't warp anytime soon. Furthermore, webbing people to keep them out of the undock radius of the station is a critical part of game mechanics. The way things stand, they've declared webbing people (under any circumstances) an exploit. -Liang
Usually you use webbing to let a freighter insta-warp when jumped through a gate. It looks like the undock mechanics with webs will cause this exploit. |
Prince Kobol
250
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Posted - 2012.03.20 16:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
The most important question is why has something which has been declared as a valid tactic for years (According to some) now deemed to be an exploit?
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gfldex
385
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Posted - 2012.03.20 16:52:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mr Blue wrote:Dear CCP, this game mechanic have existed for years. the first supercarriers was killed in low sec due to bumping (so they couldnt warp)
That is not the bug. The problem comes form some "optimisations" introduced a long long time ago. The code is assuming that a ship that has a higher current speed then the maximum speed of the ship class got it's warp drive active.
A webber is lowering the maximum speed of the ship. If you got speed when webs are applied your ship enters a undefined state. You are in warp while your warp drive is not active. As a result you get something really odd. You can't cancel warp because your warp drive is not active (yet) but you can't navigate because you are in warp.
This bug is there for years indeed but never became a problem because stations didn't use to kick you out.
Funnily, kicking stations where meant to be an optimisation to reduce the amount of bumping (and as such collision control at server side), is working in conjunction with a very old bug to create a deathtrap for anybody who does not have an insta undock.
This was petitioned before many many times and I think it's time for the GM team to apologize to all who where told to go and *beep* themselves. If you lost a ship in this way I strongly encourage you to reopen the petition in question. There is still hope that GMs have brains but are simply not allowed to use them. The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
gfldex
385
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Posted - 2012.03.20 16:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:The most important question is why has something which has been declared as a valid tactic for years (According to some) now deemed to be an exploit?
I would guess that somebody filed a bug report with the right wording.
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
29
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Posted - 2012.03.20 16:58:00 -
[66] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:The most important question is why has something which has been declared as a valid tactic for years (According to some) now deemed to be an exploit? I would guess that some carebear cried to the right gm
ftfy |
Nirnias Stirrum
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
33
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:00:00 -
[67] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:Nirnias Stirrum wrote:Wait so let me get this straight and see if im reading it correctly... Webbing a freighter/cap ship in order for it to get into warp faster is an exploit now? since when? this is commenly used by everyone.
Also does that mean frag warping (cloaking, then uncloaking and instawarping) is an exploit also? No, what happens is a station kicks out a freighter/JF faster than the speed the freighter is able to naturally fly at, aggressor then webs said freighter/JF so much that due to the ships terrible inertia takes a ******** amount of time to decelerate from the over speed and align to warp while being unable to stop warp or dock. From what I gather anyway...
Ohhhh that makes way more sense... wish the OP was as clear as this.
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Xpaulusx
V I R I I Ineluctable.
25
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:04:00 -
[68] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Xpaulusx wrote:your Vindi's.......... give them too me. I'll buy your Vindi's for 1 trit
Also your immobility Drivers as well, can i haz? |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1099
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:14:00 -
[69] - Quote
Nirnias Stirrum wrote: Ohhhh that makes way more sense... wish the OP was as clear as this.
The problem has never been limited to JFs, and as things stand CCP has effectively outlawed webbing (especially on a station). ******* ******** way to handle this. The "problem" has been in game for so long that the best course of action is to fix the part where it prevents you from taking further action (including canceling warp) before you enter warp.
But declaring something that's a well known part of the game an "exploit"? No, that's pretty ... bad.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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gfldex
386
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:19:00 -
[70] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:and as things stand CCP has effectively outlawed webbing (especially on a station).
No they don't. They have banned webbing before scrambling at stations.
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
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Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:21:00 -
[71] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:This is just ccp dumbing eve down another tiny notch.
Rather dumb people using that phrase all to often with little incite or thought process all their own.
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
225
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:23:00 -
[72] - Quote
So we're not allowed to web people now? |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
55
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:So we're not allowed to web people now?
Not unless you warp scramble them as well. |
Nergart
GWA Corp
1
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:26:00 -
[74] - Quote
I found out about this bug a couple of months ago when it happened to a friends carrier (got replaced btw)
sounds like a massive issue really. looking through the jump freighter kills there are very few that do not have a 90% webbing ship on the mail (vindicator/vigilant and so on)
perhaps changing the warp and docking mechanics to allow a ship to dock while its warping would resolve this issue. (just a thaught)
the worst part is I guess, that this exploit is also used by the navy. having been a pirate in the past, ive had the navy web me off gates and off stations before they point me, this stops a player from docking until they are warp disrupted by the navy. up until today I thought that was how the navy was designed to work.
sounds like this exploit has been in game a very long time and fixing it will require a look at more than just 1 aspect of this.
I agree that this issue is not limited to just jump freighters but potentially any ship |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1099
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:30:00 -
[75] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:and as things stand CCP has effectively outlawed webbing (especially on a station). No they don't. They have banned webbing before scrambling at stations.
The text of the news item was updated to be much more specific (at my request). It is much better now than the original banning of ban on "webs that prevent warping".
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Morgan North
The Wild Bunch Electus Matari
62
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:32:00 -
[76] - Quote
I'm thinkin the subject can be solved by making the exit station speed dependant on the exiting vehicle speed rather than a random number. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1099
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:33:00 -
[77] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Rek Seven wrote:So we're not allowed to web people now? Not unless you warp scramble them as well.
Actually, the text of the new news item is much superior:
news item wrote: We've become aware of an exploit that is being abused by players to catch jump freighters in low-sec in order to kill them. By webbing a ship that has initiated warp, the victim will be rendered unable to cancel the warp in order to dock. This is a clear exploit and anyone found abusing this will be dealt with accordingly. Exploiting may result in a permanent suspension from the game. A fix will be deployed for this issue in the near future.
This is superior to the older:
old news item wrote: It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them. This is a clear exploit and anyone found abusing this will be dealt with accordingly. Exploiting may result in a permanent suspension from the game. A fix will be deployed for this issue in the near future.
The first outlaws webbing (and not scramming) freighters/JFs on a station that have clicked warp. The second outlaws webs.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
494
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:47:00 -
[78] - Quote
Honeyhole wrote:It's not an exploit.
And it's even more sad that it took the cries of a thousand carebears and casual power-bloc players for you to say you're going to do something about it.
Funny that, but it is the crying of Butthurt individuals that change things.
In this case, its not carebears. Look at titan guns...only thing different is the tracking, range, and damage mods compared to a frigate gun. For all intents and purposes, they work exactly the same using the same rule sets CCP set down when they coded turrets. So its pretty clever to give up massive amounts of tank for those tracking mods to punt sub cap ships that were also webbed by ally ships to just make those cruisers and battlecruisers into a fish in the barrel while you were holding a hand grenade.
But silly CCP - "We're not happy with the effectiveness of large groups of titans against subcapital ships" - since the Titan was origionally a fleet buster with the AoE doomsday, then doomsday gets nerfed to single target, then nerfed again with removal of drones and hitpoints while limiting to cap ships only, then the titan guns get nerfed. CCP doesn't have a clue what to do with a titan, but players have a clue how to use it and use it well until the roar of the Butthurt horde calls for that monstrosity to be burned at the stake since their little subcrap ship can't take the hit of a titan gun - newsflash its because you don't have a clue your ship sucks ass and you should be in a cap ship to take a hit from a capship. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
192
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:57:00 -
[79] - Quote
if webs can produce a scram affect, then what the heck did ccp balls up to make scrams not work sometimes? |
Parsee789
Immaterial and Missing Power
68
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Posted - 2012.03.20 17:59:00 -
[80] - Quote
It seems to me the issue is that when the freighter gets webbed when its in warp, it doesn't not have the ability to cancel warp, and therefore it cannot dock. |
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Steve Celeste
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
232
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:07:00 -
[81] - Quote
Mr Blue wrote:broken game That's the problem, not the players.
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
648
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
...so as long as you warp scramble the target before it dies, after bumping it off station, you should have a pretty good counter argument.
Amirite? Here's your sign... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5703
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:But declaring something that's a well known part of the game an "exploit"? No, that's pretty ... bad. No, it's not. It is utterly and completely irrelevant how well-known a bug is GÇö it is still a bug, and exploiting such a bug is still an exploit. Webs keeping things from entering warp is a bug, plain and simple.
Quote:The first outlaws webbing (and not scramming) freighters/JFs on a station that have clicked warp. The second outlaws webs. No it doesn't. Both do the same thing: outlaws webbing as a method to keep ships from warping. You're still just as allowed as ever to slow people down. You're just as allowed as ever to mess up people's align times. You are completely free to use webs, as long as you're not piling them on to the point where it forces the target into this undefined state of unwarpability.
War Kitten wrote:...so as long as you warp scramble the target before it dies, after bumping it off station, you should have a pretty good counter argument. If the application of a warp scrambler manages to break the ship out of this GÇ£jammed warp engineGÇ¥ state, then yes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow NightSong Directorate
32
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:27:00 -
[84] - Quote
I would argue anything that the game logic permits is fair play because any exploits or bugs should never have made it to release. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1100
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:30:00 -
[85] - Quote
You don't properly understand what the problem was. IMO this is an artifact of you being a high sec carebear that doesn't PVP, but it could be because you are being intentionally obtuse. There is a world of difference between the first and second iterations of the announcement. The first outlaws webs as a rule while the second outlaws webbing freighters (and jump freighters) on a station without scramming them.
Basically: when I challenged CCP on this they fixed the announcement. Thus, QED and STFU.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5703
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:40:00 -
[86] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:There is a world of difference between the first and second iterations of the announcement. The first outlaws webs as a rule while the second outlaws webbing freighters (and jump freighters) on a station without scramming them.
Basically: when I challenged CCP on this they fixed the announcement. No, both outlawed the same thing, but in the original statement, CCP weren't telling people exactly it was they were outlawing (probably assuming GÇö perhaps foolishly, which is a different discussion GÇö that people who used it knew what they were referring to). Now that the cat is out of the bag, there's no point in being coy about the nature of the exploit any more, that is all.
You have to be a complete dumbass not to see that they're saying the exact same thing and that, no, they did at no point outlaw the use of webs. Stop acting stupid because I know you're not. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Rixiu
PonyTek
114
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:48:00 -
[87] - Quote
Seriously? They outlawed using tripple 90% webs to lock a freighter in "warp" after it undocked (and clicked warp) making it impossible for the freighter pilot to simply cancel warp and dock up. Are people really arguing that this is a good mechanic? |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
463
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:48:00 -
[88] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Where's the confusion?
If people are managing to use a webber (a module that in no way inhibits warping) in a way that makes it inhibit warping, then that is indeed the module not working as intended GÇö a bug GÇö and making use of such a bug is pretty much the most basic and fundamental definition of an GÇ£exploitGÇ¥.
It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.
It just makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1100
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:53:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, both outlawed the same thing, but in the original statement, CCP weren't telling people exactly it was they were outlawing (probably assuming GÇö perhaps foolishly, which is a different discussion GÇö that people who used it knew what they were referring to). Now that the cat is out of the bag, there's no point in being coy about the nature of the exploit any more, that is all.
You have to be a complete dumbass not to see that they're saying the exact same thing and that, no, they did at no point outlaw the use of webs. Stop acting stupid because I know you're not.
The first outlaws all use of webs without scrams/disruptors anywhere against anyone. The second outlaws webs without scrams on a station undock for a freighter/jump freighter that has a noob at the helm and just decided to click "warp" instead of taking the many options available to prevent his demise.
There is a world of difference between the two.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5704
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.
It must makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed. GǪand jams you in the warping mode, which GÇö regardless of all other details and what else might happen GÇö is also a bug. Taking advantage of this bug is a text-book example of an exploit. I'm sorry, but there really is no wiggle-room on this one. Everything about it is about activating bugs, aka using exploits. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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