Originally by: Relliassa

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Edited by: Relliassa on 03/08/2008 23:30:14
So you're not totally immune to missiles

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Originally by: Sivonya

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say you are in vagabond and come across drake or raven in belt, you tackle it and call on your gang to come and help who are 50 au away. Buy the time they reach you are either dead or had to let go the target because caldari missiles ripped you apart( so i dont see how vaga is overgrown ceptor when it goes 2x times less km/s)

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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[so as to be fast and to allow us to disengage, because 9/10 times we need to run away, So WE STAY OUT OF WEB RANGE! Your comparison of a vaga unwebbed and a vaga webbed is a pointless statement made by a trolling looser who knows jack crap about how to pilot minmatar ships so get out.[/url]

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Be careful what you wish for. This is what happens when nanopilots adapt:

http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=141675

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But Triumvirate guys know their stuff and don't whine on the forums so much?

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Originally by: Xyleya

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Vagabond: 477 DPS @ 2700m / 272 DPS @ 28700m
Deimos: 658 DPS @ 5600m / 408 DPS @ 17600m
Zealot: 456 DPS @ 38000m / 228 DPS @ 43000m

Vagabond has allmost double the Zealots HP and does good DPS up to 28700m. Deimos has a comparable tank, but outdamages the Vagabond having much more less range. Zealot has biggest range, but weakest tank and lowest DPS.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: Relliassa

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Edited by: Relliassa on 03/08/2008 23:30:14
So you're not totally immune to missiles, uncatchable and close to unkillable if you're a competant pilot.
Cry more.
And I thought the funniest bit was "its the same as if caldari got all shield resses cut in half" - when it's actually Caldari who've been screwed over already by precisely those ships you're BAWWWing over.

How about doing what nano*** pilots have been telling everyone else to do: adapt and survive. Yeah those words sound a whole lot nastier when it's other people saying it to you eh?

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Be careful what you wish for. This is what happens when nanopilots adapt:

http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=141675

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Quote:

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Maeltstome:
man
Maeltstome:
im gonna lol when all these anti-nano smug gits get hit with real gangs
Maeltstome:
you seen *popular alliance assumed to be nano wh@res* in BS's?
Maeltstome:
****ing scary
Maeltstome:
drop the hundreds of millions for snakes and fit some faction reppers, you're gonna get hit with some devastating command ship gangs, tanking everything
Peter | beware the deceiver, for he shall lead you into hidden holes says:
then they will get nerfed
0m3g4 W34p0n:
its always the same dude
0m3g4 W34p0n:
something is good, then it gets an unnessacary amount of whine, it gets nerfed, no one uses it, they pick the next item, rinse, repeat
0m3g4 W34p0n:
ffs, they're back to bashing passive sheild tanks again
0m3g4 W34p0n:
is it me or is this 2007 all over again?

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Originally by: Wizzkidy

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Vaga should NOT be able to out run missiles/torps etc.. as you saw in the dev blog, ship "out running" missiles are bugging the game out.

Tough :p

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Originally by: Wizzkidy

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Vaga should NOT be able to out run missiles/torps etc.. as you saw in the dev blog, ship "out running" missiles are bugging the game out.

Tough :p

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Originally by: fivedollar*****

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honestly i've been skilling minmatars for almost 2 years

now i question myself should i continue playing when someone anuls my effort so much

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Originally by: Sivonya

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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[so as to be fast and to allow us to disengage, because 9/10 times we need to run away, So WE STAY OUT OF WEB RANGE! Your comparison of a vaga unwebbed and a vaga webbed is a pointless statement made by a trolling looser who knows jack crap about how to pilot minmatar ships so get out.[/url]

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put your glasses on next time before you try replying
i was not talking about vaga but about web and how nerf affects minmatar recons

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Originally by: Wizzkidy

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Vaga should NOT be able to out run missiles/torps etc.. as you saw in the dev blog, ship "out running" missiles are bugging the game out.

Tough :p

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Originally by: Stab Wounds

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Be careful what you wish for. This is what happens when nanopilots adapt:

http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=141675

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But Triumvirate guys know their stuff and don't whine on the forums so much?

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the thing is they really don't know their stuff and all they do is whine on the forums. they will fail when nanos are nerfed and i await the nanotears.

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Originally by: 128th ABC123

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Interesting... I just love getting blobbed by 22 vagas in 0.0 (never seen ANY ship type being used that much.. so that alone says something)

In all honesty the overall versatility of the ship and the high chance of escape from most situations with that ship (if you are not a complete moron...) are not balanced. Missiles vs speed is just sucky though. Amongst my accounts I fly a range from nano-ships, falcon, capship, etc and I think I can make a fair assesment of the different qualities. My personal opinion (even though it would impact me too!!!) is that the vaga needs to be nerfed.

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Originally by: Sivonya

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Originally by: 128th ABC123

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Interesting... I just love getting blobbed by 22 vagas in 0.0 (never seen ANY ship type being used that much.. so that alone says something)

In all honesty the overall versatility of the ship and the high chance of escape from most situations with that ship (if you are not a complete moron...) are not balanced. Missiles vs speed is just sucky though. Amongst my accounts I fly a range from nano-ships, falcon, capship, etc and I think I can make a fair assesment of the different qualities. My personal opinion (even though it would impact me too!!!) is that the vaga needs to be nerfed.

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Yes vaga needs a nerf... if other nanoes get nerfed, but this is too much, 22 of anything is terible, just vagabond is for guerilla warefare and thats what it should remain doing, wit hthe current situation it looses its purpose totally.
p.s.you dont say when you see half a fleet in megathrons oh its terible all use megathrons

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Originally by: Ferocious FeAr

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I don't understand why people are complaining about the vagabond. It can still go 3km a sec, sure it gets tracked and hit by missiles more but deal with it and move on. Alter your seutp/tactics to avoid getting into bad situations. Stop making CCP think for you. You have a brain, use it.

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Originally by: Malachon Draco

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Originally by: Relliassa

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Edited by: Relliassa on 03/08/2008 23:30:14
So you're not totally immune to missiles, uncatchable and close to unkillable if you're a competant pilot.
Cry more.
And I thought the funniest bit was "its the same as if caldari got all shield resses cut in half" - when it's actually Caldari who've been screwed over already by precisely those ships you're BAWWWing over.

How about doing what nano*** pilots have been telling everyone else to do: adapt and survive. Yeah those words sound a whole lot nastier when it's other people saying it to you eh?

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Be careful what you wish for. This is what happens when nanopilots adapt:

http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=141675

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Originally by: Nightsheir

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*ENEMY*
- I will first tackle you .
- Then i will see if i can kill you .
- If not , i will just be off to try another target.

*GATE*
- I will just take a look.
- If its not a rapier camp , ill tackle the (see enemy part)
- If there is camp , i will just go back to gate .

Before the speed age, there wasnt many vagabonds around. Only a different taste of play. Once the atari masters learned about what speed had to offer , vagabonds multiplied like insects. Many of my friends totaly giving up on their accounts and creating new matari ones just for the vagabond.

Speed was not all about avoiding damage. It was also about closing the distance or increasing it. Going back to gate when necessary or burning off to far away with a ship capable of killing interceptors and just warping off.

The much loved Vagabond became the easy carebear mode for many.
The "Escape artist with guns"...

Ironicaly, the whining is going much around Vagabond still , but the Nerf meteor hit Eve and all of the ships, not just the "Escape Artist with Guns".

-Other nano pilots will just go back to their normal ships now and continue enjoying eve.
-But since 80% of the vagabond pilots were totaly focused the "top page" bonuses vagabond was offering , they dont have any other way to play eve anymore . This panic rightfuly causes them to scream around and ask ccp to give their golden seats back.

Welcome back to eve , vagabond will now become just a different taste once again , not a spearhead for the minmatar race.

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Originally by: Becq Starforged

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I'm going to take a middle ground on this. I feel that nano ships are over-the-top as they currently exist, so I like the changes in principle. However, I'm leaning toward the opinion that the changes go to far.

Snake changes -- good. Introducing these in the first place was one of the two reasons nano-ships became as unballanced as they are. Cutting their effect is reasonable, though I do understand the consternation of those who spent billions on those implants. Then again, many have lost investments due to the effects of rebalancing.

Polycarb changes -- good. These were the other major factor in unbalancing nano-ships. All other rigs are less effective than their equivalent module, so should polycarbs.

Increased ship mass -- bad. It sounds as though they've not only significantly increased ship mass on a number of ships, but have also changed the modules that reduce mass so that they no longer do so. I'm not in favor of this. Clearly the polycarbs reduced mass too much, but this goes too far in the other direction.

Overdrive effectiveness reduced -- bad. I favor leaving overdrives as is, though see below.

Gang bonuses -- good. I think the amount this was reduced is reasonable.

Webifiers -- good/bad. 90% webifiers were too strong. 60% webifiers are too weak, and this hits Matari recons too hard. I think a balance might be reached by giving the Matari recons a web strength bonus (5-10% per level) and by adding a web strength skill (5% per level). These strength bonuses would apply to the margin, not to the penalty amount, like hardeners do. So, for example, a normal ship flown by a web-trained pilot would get a web strength of about 70%, and a fully trained Rapier pilot would get that number up to 77.5-85%.

Overheating -- oh, yes, I should have added this in as the third major source of the problem. I don't see any changes made to overheating by this patch, which strikes me as odd. Frankly, if I had my way, I'd remove overheating and refund the SPs spent training this skill plus the last level of the prereq. Failing that, the gain from overheating should be reduced significantly.

MWD/scram interaction -- neutral. I'm not sure whether I like this or not yet. It might be an interesting dynamic.

Afterburners -- bad. If anything, I think afterburners should be boosted (by a modest amount).

AFs -- good. Though I hope that this is not the whole of the vaunted AF fix; a bit of extra speed isn't enough.

One final thought: in general, instead of reducing the bonuses from individual sources as much, I think that incorporating stacking nerfs should accomplish a good deal of what needs to be done. It's just a matter of making the various modules stack together in a way that doesn't prevent their usefulness single while reducing the effect of fitting many of them.

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