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Relay this message to the Gallente...

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Author	Topic
Orion GUardian	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:48:00 - [31] But if there wasn't a fleet over it, what would stop the Gallente from repeating history? I had a reason leaving the state after I became what I am today, child of the stars and I never would have thought that the State would have the guts to take what was rightfully ours. If I did not love this freedom so much I would aid the fleet in its battle just to keep Caldari Prime in the hands of our people. But alas, the Gallente forgot the history and as they aided the Minmatar in their claim for freedom later, they did not let us have it but took our homeworld from us and now, that we reclaimed it in the way they stole it, they wage war of vengeance and would again steal Caldari Prime from us. If you want to have peace, the I doubt it wont be achieved but the Gallente want Vengeance and that prevents peace. And now, let me just add one other reason why I am not aiding the war....Caldari citizens, let go of this devilish Alliance, the Amarrians are not our friends. They are religious zealots on their way to force the Universe into their grip, stay alert and don't trust them too much, they made the Minmatar our enemies...are we not similar to them? A nation, that fleed their oppressors and became free? Aren#t the MInmatar those who should be our allies?
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.08.11 19:54:00 - [32] But remember, the Minmatar are our allies. Would you ally with us, as well? ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.08.11 20:13:00 - [33] Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 11/08/2008 20:16:43 Yes, quite the lasting conundrum, isn't it? Out of all the people in the galaxy, the ones who most resemble the Caldari are the allies of our enemy. The ones who pose the second-greatest threat to us are our allies, because we have common cause against the Gallente. Now that we have what we most wanted from the Gallente back, peace might be possible-- only it clearly isn't, because the Gallente are feeling not entirely unreasonably aggrieved that the Caldari waltzed into their (and our, but more recently just their) home system and snatched a planet. ... which is why we might be willing to quit while we're ahead and accept peace at this point if the Gallente would just call off the silly war, but it's obvious that's not going to happen. And so, our somewhat dangerous allies to are necessary still, and our similarities to the Minmatar will remain a subject of academic interest for the foreseeable future, at least among those who remain with the cultures of their birth. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2008.08.11 20:24:00 - [34] Edited by: Faraelle Brightman on 11/08/2008 20:24:34 My understanding of the ties between the Caldari and Ammar is that they were first and foremost, business. Something about mining rights in either Kahnid or Ammatar space, I forget which. That is steriotypicly Caldari. Factor in a common advistary (the Gallente) and you cement the deal. Also, some of the Caldari corporations held their workers in about the same regard as the Amarr do slaves, a mistake they're paying for now in the form of Heth.
Avel Kereka Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.08.11 23:08:00 - [35] Edited by: Avel Kereka on 11/08/2008 23:09:20 Really now Ms. Jenneth, we just want the best for everybody. If you Caldari weren't quite so thorny we would probably have a much... closer socio-political relationship. I also just noticed it's ironic our democratic rivals seem to favour armour-taking gunships like we do. As impressive as the Caldari military machine is there is something to be said for the soul present in Gallente design...
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente aurorae pacificas	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:41:00 - [36] Originally by: Aria Jenneth Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 11/08/2008 20:16:43 Yes, quite the lasting conundrum, isn't it? Out of all the people in the galaxy, the ones who most resemble the Caldari are the allies of our enemy. The ones who pose the second-greatest threat to us are our allies, because we have common cause against the Gallente. Now that we have what we most wanted from the Gallente back, peace might be possible-- only it clearly isn't, because the Gallente are feeling not entirely unreasonably aggrieved that the Caldari waltzed into their (and our, but more recently just their) home system and snatched a planet. ... which is why we might be willing to quit while we're ahead and accept peace at this point if the Gallente would just call off the silly war, but it's obvious that's not going to happen. And so, our somewhat dangerous allies to are necessary still, and our similarities to the Minmatar will remain a subject of academic interest for the foreseeable future, at least among those who remain with the cultures of their birth. You do realise that many of your lower classes are as enslaved economically as the minmatar were physically to the Amarrians right? The State is nothing like the Republic beyond semantical, whimsical gestures of nationalistic autonomy. Give the same autonomy to your own working class, to the people of Luminaire and THEN you can start to consider yourselves as freedom loving. You see that is why your fleets are faltering- the will to sacrifice ones life for the economical wealth of some CEO who couldnt care less about you fades with every defeat, every notification of death to a loved one. The Minmatar fight to free the oppressed in vitoxic slave pens. The Gallente fight to free those trapped on Lum, but more subtly to free the Caldari from themselves. Im sure the posturer's and flag wavers here rarely consider the occupational conditions that their fellow caldari work in to produce their cruiser class vessels. Perhaps if they did, perhaps if they could actually empathize with their own brethern they could find a solidarity and unity of purpose to carry them through the darker points of this war. Perhaps... But I doubt the consideration even crosses their minds. Viva la Federation.
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.08.12 11:57:00 - [37] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik You do realise that many of your lower classes are as enslaved economically as the minmatar were physically to the Amarrians right? The State is nothing like the Republic beyond semantical, whimsical gestures of nationalistic autonomy. Give the same autonomy to your own working class, to the people of Luminaire and THEN you can start to consider yourselves as freedom loving. You see that is why your fleets are faltering- the will to sacrifice ones life for the economical wealth of some CEO who couldnt care less about you fades with every defeat, every notification of death to a loved one. The Minmatar fight to free the oppressed in vitoxic slave pens. The Gallente fight to free those trapped on Lum, but more subtly to free the Caldari from themselves. Im sure the posturer's and flag wavers here rarely consider the occupational conditions that their fellow caldari work in to produce their cruiser class vessels. Perhaps if they did, perhaps if they could actually empathize with their own brethern they could find a solidarity and unity of purpose to carry them through the darker points of this war. Perhaps... But I doubt the consideration even crosses their minds. Viva la Federation. You do realize that you are buying into your own propaganda and taking the worst as the norm right? Do you realize it was a populist revolution against the executives of the megacorporations which is why Tibus Heth has power? The Federation wouldn't have cared if this populist revolution had not occurred. You would not be attempting to 'rescue us from ourselves' if Tibus Heth had not been so anti-Gallente and liberated Caldari Prime. M. Nihildarnik, do you support Tibus Heth's internal policies of wealth redistribution, executive shake up, and stronger central government? Do you support Tibus Heth? Just maybe the very Gallente idea of democracy is what has caused this war. The Caldari people, the average Caldari worker, support Tibus Heth, one of their own, and his policies. Perhaps you should gain a better understanding of State and international politics before declaring that you are going to save us from ourselves. What don't you understand about "WE DON'T WANT YOUR HELP!"? Founder Heiian Society
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.08.12 14:47:00 - [38] Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Im sure the posturer's and flag wavers here rarely consider the occupational conditions that their fellow caldari work in to produce their cruiser class vessels. Hmm... let's see... A wage in State dollars worth upwards of five thousand ISK a year (enough to afford a comfortably large apartment), access to high-quality medical and dental care, State education for their children, top-flight safety gear... and a job that consists 25% of waiting around while the automated robotic assembly plant builds the superstructure, 50% installing ship systems, and 25% testing those systems to make sure they're up to code. All in the near-perfect safety of a modern space station. Not to mention a full corporate compensation package and widow's pension in the immensely unlikely event of an industrial accident. You're right, that's horrible. Those poor souls. Please, somebody think of the children. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.12 17:44:00 - [39] Originally by: Stitcher Originally by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Im sure the posturer's and flag wavers here rarely consider the occupational conditions that their fellow caldari work in to produce their cruiser class vessels. Hmm... let's see... A wage in State dollars worth upwards of five thousand ISK a year (enough to afford a comfortably large apartment), access to high-quality medical and dental care, State education for their children, top-flight safety gear... and a job that consists 25% of waiting around while the automated robotic assembly plant builds the superstructure, 50% installing ship systems, and 25% testing those systems to make sure they're up to code. All in the near-perfect safety of a modern space station. Not to mention a full corporate compensation package and widow's pension in the immensely unlikely event of an industrial accident. You're right, that's horrible. Those poor souls. Please, somebody think of the children. Stitcher, You are citing something that unfortunately we can not verify. To say that those are the living conditions and wages of the average or such is unsubstantiated. Unfortunately we are not privy to those documents and as such are hampered in our arguments when we start siting facts, numbers and such that have no basis in referential sources. At this point and time I could claim that 80% of caldari peoples live in a state of financial slavery, with structures and processes that keep them in said slavery. However what proof can I bring to that statement ... none. It comes down to an argument of he said she said that has no verifiable evidence. I wish our news agencies would do more towards giving us good citable facts and conditions by which to reference and base our views from. Please don't take this communication as saying you alone do this... I have seen evidence of this in some of my own statements and arguments as well as in every pilots statements who make use of this venue. We cite our beliefs and not fact as evidence and it leads to fruitless argumentation. Search: Sky Grunthor
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.08.12 20:37:00 - [40] Originally by: Avel Kereka Really now Ms. Jenneth, we just want the best for everybody. If you Caldari weren't quite so thorny we would probably have a much... closer socio-political relationship. The disgusting, wheedling tendency to lie has not died with the attack of the Elder Fleet, then. The Amarr have only ever wanted what's best for themselves - all the wealth, all the power. You're genocidal murderers with no morals, and you're going to burn. Originally by: Avel Kereka I also just noticed it's ironic our democratic rivals seem to favour armour-taking gunships like we do. As impressive as the Caldari military machine is there is something to be said for the soul present in Gallente design... Yeah, but our ships don't suck. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.

Avel Kereka Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.08.13 02:55:00 - [41] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris The disgusting, wheedling tendency to lie has not died with the attack of the Elder Fleet, then. The Amarr have only ever wanted what's best for themselves - all the wealth, all the power. You're genocidal murderers with no morals, and you're going to burn. What's best for us is what's best for you. Oh, and "burning" is our style, I suggest you find another one. How about "you're going to get picked apart by drones because we don't have enough people willing to fight". Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Originally by: Avel Kereka I also just noticed it's ironic our democratic rivals seem to favour armour-taking gunships like we do. As impressive as the Caldari military machine is there is something to be said for the soul present in Gallente design... Yeah, but our ships don't suck. Ours don't either, are you sure you're not thinking of your own oral orifice?
Hurtado Soneka Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.08.13 08:13:00 - [42] Funny metaphors and analogies aside, the reclaiming of Caldari Prime was definately an act of war, one which should of been contained in Luminaire system, however the infamous Nyx incident was a gross act of terrorism, which will forever stain any veneer of rightousness the Gallente may try to attain in the future. We will either be the winner or the loser, but the Gallente will always be the villian.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.13 12:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Hurtado Soneka Funny metaphors and analogies aside, the reclaiming of Caldari Prime was definately an act of war, one which should of been contained in Luminaire system, however the infamous Nyx incident was a gross act of terrorism, which will forever stain any veneer of rightousness the Gallente may try to attain in the future. We will either be the winner or the loser, but the Gallente will always be the villian. Hurtado Soneka, You would ascribe the acts of one pilot to whole of a people? And who is the warmonger? What idiocy, what foolishness, what gross criminality of the mind! Terrorism it was but to ascribe that and its actions to the whole of a people as reason to go to war and to vilify that people is unconscionable. I rebuke you sir! Search: Sky Grunthor
Natalia Duraldi Gallente Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:32:00 - [44] Edited by: Natalia Duraldi on 13/08/2008 21:32:21 Originally by: Hurtado Soneka We will either be the winner or the loser, but the Gallente will always be the villain. So your people respond by pulling Gallenteans out of their homes and beating them? And we are the villains?
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.08.13 21:58:00 - [45] Originally by: Hurtado Soneka Funny metaphors and analogies aside, the reclaiming of Caldari Prime was most definately an act of war, one which should have been contained in Luminaire system, and in addition the infamous Nouvelle Rouvenour incident was a gross act of terrorism, as was the Hueremont incident which will forever stain any veneer of rightousness the Caldari may try to attain in the future. We will either be the winner or the loser, but the Caldari will always be the villian. I fixed your statements for you. They're a bit more accurate now. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.08.13 22:55:00 - [46] Edited by: Dex Nederland on 13/08/2008 22:56:26 Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Originally by: Hurtado Soneka Funny metaphors and analogies aside, the reclaiming of Caldari Prime was most definately an act of war, one which should have been contained in Luminaire system, and in addition the infamous Nouvelle Rouvenour incident was a gross act of terrorism, as was the Hueremont incident which will forever stain any veneer of rightousness the Caldari may try to attain in the future. We will either be the winner or the loser, but the Caldari will always be the villian. I fixed your statements for you. They're a bit more accurate now. I hope that was a demonstration of the ease with which any culture or people can be labeled villianous or barbaric. The accuracy of either set of statements is a matter of perspective. Founder Heiian Society
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:49:00 - [47] Both were accurate. Doesn't change the fact that both sides will butcher each other until there are no more people left on at least one side. Question is: Do you think that your side will have what it takes to go straight to the top here? The State is at least as backwards as the Empire, mired in the "traditional" ways of doing things. I mean, honour is nice, but I'm fairly sure it takes brain damage to know what a Caldari tea ceremony entails, and still go. And considering how most real economies work (not saying the State possesses a real one, just arguing here), why have none of the mega-corps ever managed to take each other over? Gonna guess "Because that's the way its always been." OH, and the whole idea that the good Admiral was involved in an act of terrorism: false. As his intent was not to terrorize or create panic, but to simply strike back at what he hated, regardless of who was watching, I believe the dictionary would file his act under "revenge" or maybe "vengeance." Warp Speed skill needed!
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Karanth Question is: Do you think that your side will have what it takes to go straight to the top here? The State is at least as backwards as the Empire, mired in the "traditional" ways of doing things. I mean, honour is nice, but I'm fairly sure it takes brain damage to know what a Caldari tea ceremony entails, and still go. And considering how most real economies work (not saying the State possesses a real one, just arguing here), why have none of the mega-corps ever managed to take each other over? Gonna guess "Because that's the way its always been." Do you think the Federation (clearly not your side as you are a member of a capsuleer alliance), has what it takes to go straight to the top? I suspect that FOOM will say yes and they have demonstrated the ability to focus their wealth and numbers in capturing systems in eastern Black Rise. If FOOM left? As to your perception of the State: Why have some of the megacorps never managed to take each other over? Well lets take a simple example of 3 megacorporations A, B, & C; C is in a position to be taken over by the other two. The megacorporation that manages to take over C will be stronger and thus a threat to the remaining megacorp. If Corp A starts to buy up shares in Corp C, Corp B may do the same; the hostile takeover of C by A or B fails because they are stopping each others actions. A takeover is expensive, requires lots of funds (something the State's corporations seem to have been struggling with of late), and may not be the best thing for the economy. There is an extensive web of corporations having shares in other corporations. As to the economy of the State, it is more like the internal economies of the corporations themselves. Tariffs are a part of plenty economies, and I suspect the Federation has a solid tariff on goods not manufactured in the Federation. The State's tariffs don't exist at a national level, but rather at a corporate level and between corporations. Ishukone and Hyasyoda worked hard to maintain a free market in the State at the national/interstellar level; however they have 0 control on the internal policies of other corporations. Real economies exist in every human society, what you allude to is the level of control that governments place on those economies. The Federation also has its "traditional" ways of doing things, democracy is nice, but I am fairly sure it takes forever to get anything actually done. You, Karanth, consider your own culture to be the pinnacle of human achievement and anything different must be backward. Perhaps you should use your 'better' culture's opinion to accept the cultures of others or are you as fanatical as some traditional Amarrian clerics? Founder Heiian Society
Orion GUardian	Posted - 2008.08.14 21:10:00 - [49] Earlier I pointed, without clearly stating, to my reasons why I left my bonds with Caldari State and that is it, we are using the worker class for the glory and wealth of the state, BUT they are doing it of their own will at least. They attain wealth and at least a fine condition to live in regardless of their own....malice....Isn't Gallente up for the wealth of an individual? But how does a single person obtain wealth? There is no infinite amount of money in the universe. Where one Gallentean has made a fortune another one starves to death in his "freedom" while being stomped on because he wasn't fierce enough to get his teeth into the cake. How many "rich" Gallenteans are fighting the war against the state? I bet none, the ones fighting the war for you are the poor the Gallenteans that could not make a great amount of money and are forced to put ; their life on the line for the freedom of your capitalistic System. Youa re not BETTER than the Amarr...you are the same, though you are not oppressing races but the poor. Wahte the holders in the Empire are, that are the rich in the Gallente fed and YES that are the megacorpleaders in Caldari BUT there is a difference: While the Gallentean poor fight because they have to because they weren't successful in the capitalistic battle; while Amarrian Fleets are manned with non-Holders and Slaves; While that is happening, Caldari Soldiers fight ebcause they think its the best for the state, for their people. And I hate every of that system, The Minmatar fight for the freedom of their brothers, let them be, thats at least a cause but The other three? there are plenty of other reasons beside the money to become a capsuleer, one of the best is "freedom" somnething you cannot attain int either of the four Nations, Especially not in Gallente or Amarr....
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.14 21:58:00 - [50] Originally by: Orion GUardian There is no infinite amount of money in the universe. Where one Gallentean has made a fortune another one starves to death in his "freedom" while being stomped on because he wasn't fierce enough to get his teeth into the cake. A theoretical zero-sum universe does not mean a zero-sum economy. Your logic is flawed. Value is added and taken away from the galactic economy on a continual basis. There is no static sum of galactic value that is merely reapportioned from one hand to another. Rather individuals, corporations and nation add wealth and value to the economy all the time. They do this by investing time and energy into to acquiring of the value from our natural environment or adding to that value from their own ideas, work, time and effort. Do you really think we will ever acquire all the value in the entire universe? That is a foolish thought. Our children's children to the millionth power wouldn't even come close to claiming 1% of the value and resources in our own galaxy! What is money? It is merely the representation of value in an easily tradeable form. It is there because it is agreed upon to be that representation. The value that makes us wealthy is all around us waiting to be found and used. Every individual has the capacity to increase the value that they have created and hold. That value is also not static! It is variable... one day less the next more. My friend .. the cake is as big as we believe it to be. There for the cake has the capacity to be big enough for everybody. Starving Gallantean! Phooey! what a foolish foundation for an argument. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor

Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.08.14 22:16:00 - [51] Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 14/08/2008 22:16:25 Originally by: Dex Nederland I hope that was a demonstration of the ease with which any culture or people can be labeled villianous or barbaric. The accuracy of either set of statements is a matter of perspective. Precisely - an effort in demonstrating how "drag-and-drop" propaganda has become. I don't hold all Caldari responsible for the catastrophe at Nouvelle Rouvenour, nor the hateful inhumanity of Admiral Tovil-Toba. Likewise, I feel that Caldari shouldn't hold all Gallenteans responsible for Malkalen or the bombardment of Caldari Prime. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Orion GUardian	Posted - 2008.08.15 00:38:00 - [52] Edited by: Orion GUardian on 15/08/2008 00:39:11 Sky, you use what I would call flawed logic, did notice the warnings about the mineral reserves in High security Space depleting? thats for the infinity ressources of the Galaxyy...AND...there is a finity amount of money...someone mines minerals, somebody else pays for it and produces something which other people buy with money etc etc....money is not created, it is traded. You know if tehre was more and more moeny created, each credit is worth less... And no...I was not talking about "starving" galenteans, although I am sure tehre are, I am talking about Gallenteans who are not free, because they dont have the wealth to use freedom, because THAT is what freedom is like in the Gallentean Society...you are free, if you have the money....those who dont have can't be free and I bet there is not succesful and rich man or woman at the frontlines inside a spaceship risking his life....perhaps he commands a small fleet or gang of ships but no rich Gallentean man would risk his life, that are the poor for that weren't so lucky to survive the war of individuals.... I work alongside Gallenteans, Minmatar, Amarr and other Caldari...I fight alongside them as well...I have...freinds among all of them even..somehow. But taht does not mean I need to like your society does it grins
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.15 00:56:00 - [53] Originally by: Orion GUardian Edited by: Orion GUardian on 15/08/2008 00:39:11 Sky, you use what I would call flawed logic, did notice the warnings about the mineral reserves in High security Space depleting? thats for the infinity ressources of the Galaxyy...AND...there is a finity amount of money...someone mines minerals, somebody else pays for it and produces something which other people buy with money etc etc....money is not created, it is traded. You know if tehre was more and more moeny created, each credit is worth less... Money is created all the time... and yes when its created it makes the value of it isworth less until it is backed up with an increase in perceived value. Governments authorize the creation of money. They authorize the creation of a tradable currency that is backed by real resources. Isk is a fiction that everyone believes to be true because we place value in it and trust it to actually be worth something. So yes when money is created... by its nature the rest of the money loses value for a time... but that value is increased by the agreement and perception of the populous as a whole. You are correct.. there is at any given time a finite amount of money. That finite amount of money increases as governments and banks create that representation of money. For example... today there is in exsistance 1 billion isk. Tomorrow the governments authorizes the creation of 2 isk. The finite amount of isk is now 1 billion and 2 isk. so now all money for a time is worth less. That 2 isk then buys a couple of trit bars that where produced from labor and raw materials. That 2 isk has been traded for something of value and now the entire real value in commerce is increased. Reality my friend while hard to grasp does not sustain your belief.. but never fear reality marshals on regardless of your belief and mine. Now while I'm sure your going to attempt to throw holes in the argument... I do know that neither of us are economists... and while I believe that I am right I may not have explained it very well. So I would welcome an economists word on the subject. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Orion GUardian	Posted - 2008.08.15 01:02:00 - [54] Edited by: Orion GUardian on 15/08/2008 01:03:25 So I remebered that I missed something: Yes materials are found and minded but at the same time it is lost. Food gets eaten, products get used etc. It is true that there are values to back up the value of money but at the same time as much is lost and consumed and thrown away. The history of my home world states incidents back in the era before spacetravel when whole economic systems fell because the money devalued as they fell in the same trap of thought as you did. And even if there is more money created...the money goes to where tehre is more moeny...the poor remain poor, except for a few lucky ones, and the rich become richer...I never heard of a small workerbee in Gallentespace that found a new asteroidfield and made lost of money....hey wait I know why...because they dont own spaceships....So wealth stays at the wealthy as long as everyone is working for their own individual pocket But I can't deny the last staement you made....I am no economist, only a little known in local history of my home system so a real economist would be best...or even more to state more than the view of one propagandamachine....because that is what each empire reall is....
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.15 01:24:00 - [55] Originally by: Orion GUardian Edited by: Orion GUardian on 15/08/2008 01:03:25 So I remebered that I missed something: Yes materials are found and minded but at the same time it is lost. Food gets eaten, products get used etc. It is true that there are values to back up the value of money but at the same time as much is lost and consumed and thrown away. The history of my home world states incidents back in the era before spacetravel when whole economic systems fell because the money devalued as they fell in the same trap of thought as you did. And even if there is more money created...the money goes to where tehre is more moeny...the poor remain poor, except for a few lucky ones, and the rich become richer...I never heard of a small workerbee in Gallentespace that found a new asteroidfield and made lost of money....hey wait I know why...because they dont own spaceships....So wealth stays at the wealthy as long as everyone is working for their own individual pocket But I can't deny the last staement you made....I am no economist, only a little known in local history of my home system so a real economist would be best...or even more to state more than the view of one propagandamachine....because that is what each empire reall is.... you don't realize it but you are arguing for me.... The problem you face is one of perception and not following your arguments to their conclusions? Answer me this question... There was a time when there was no money. No we have trillions and quadrillions and untold ammounts of isk. Where did it come from? hmmm? Yes value is lost... but how much more is made? How much more is traded? Even your argument of economies collapsing favor my belief and not yours... ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Orion GUardian	Posted - 2008.08.15 01:31:00 - [56] The problem might be, that my argumentation is aiming for the distinction inside your society and not the economy in itself. I started saying that for someone to get rich, the money needs to be drawn from another palce....you can't seriously say that all the money the rich have came from nowhere and was backed up later.....most of that money came and comes from other citizens and especially from those who dont have much of it anyway.... This was just one argument against the society where everybody wants wealth for individuals because in such a society there are few rich and lots of poor, always....you can't print money and give it to the poor to make them rich....and I doubt that is what you wanted to say anyway
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.15 01:50:00 - [57] Originally by: Orion GUardian The problem might be, that my argumentation is aiming for the distinction inside your society and not the economy in itself. I started saying that for someone to get rich, the money needs to be drawn from another palce....you can't seriously say that all the money the rich have came from nowhere and was backed up later.....most of that money came and comes from other citizens and especially from those who dont have much of it anyway.... Actually.... essentially that is exactly true... however that nothing was in actuality authority, military power, government authority, trust, agreement... all those things of value that are not based in material but rather in action and projection of influence. Originally by: Orion GUardian This was just one argument against the society where everybody wants wealth for individuals because in such a society there are few rich and lots of poor, always....you can't print money and give it to the poor to make them rich....and I doubt that is what you wanted to say anyway I never said anything resembling this... That is your interpretation based on your preconceptions. And I contest the statement that there are few rich and many poor. Is a good home, a loving family, means, ammenities, pleasure, contentment and joy your definition of poor? Well then yes everyone is poor. If you define as poor as havinng less money than others almost all will follow under your definition. YOUR definition of poor is flawed because those poor do not exist except by relation. The poor of today are the rich of yesterday. The rich of yesterday are the poor of today. Riches do not last forever and niether does poverty. The rich are only rich because they have what is percieved as valuable... But what happens when that perception changes? They are no longer rich. You mentioned economies collapsing... Are those rich people from those economies still rich... some may be because they are producers and innovators and would find a way to create and recognize value regardless of situation... but many others are not. The individual and the individuals abilities, dedication, talent and willingness WILL CHANGE ANY CIRCUMSTANCE! ((OOC: not yelling just trying to show passionate speech)) But, I fear that regardless of the logic and common sense presented, the reality that surrounds us is you will still believe what you believe... and ... I will believe what I believe... thankfully... reality will be what it is despite both of us. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.15 03:57:00 - [58] Actually, not to butt in into your conversation, Sky and Orion, but the basis of any economy is scarcity. You have something (a product, resource, etc) and it is finite. This can be anything from food to housing to raw minerals. Those that can afford it will have it, and those that cannot will not. Now, in order for someone to have or use a resource (housing, food, clothing etc.), someone else logically cannot have access to that resource. You then get "haves" and "have-nots". This is inevitable. Economically speaking it is impossible to have a truly equitable society where everyone has an equal portion of the total resource pie (metaphorically speaking). And it is equally logical that the poorer members of a society are forced (by their standing in the society and their efforts to risk more to gain a bit more) to undertake the more onerous and dangerous jobs. The people that can afford to do so, avoid those jobs. What this means is that (especially in societies like the Federation) you get poor migrant Matari workers picking crops by hand for a pittance (a pittance compared to the local value of that work) on agricultural worlds with little in the way of individual worker safety and a lot in the way of back breaking labor. However, they can pool their resources to attain communal housing and send a large portion of their wages home to their families in Matari space, where the money "goes further". There was a Scope report on this a few weeks before the war broke out. What many fail to understand is that in societies like the Federations, you get a lot of successful citizens. You generally have a moderate number of "rich" (upper class) and huge number of citizens that can afford to live well (middle class) and a relatively small number of "poor", (low class) the thing is that the poor in these societies are often better off than the poor of other societies, but compared to the middle class and upper class of their own society the difference is staggering. They also tend to be exploited to a greater degree than in other societies. This happens for a lot of varied reasons that frankly, there isnt room here to go over. Needless to say, the poor of any society have the least number of choices when it comes to employment and opportunity to make themselves better. They do not have access to the same education as their betters and they often are disadvantaged when it comes to job placement and job retention. The poor also, to a great degree, tend to "pass it down" to their children, though not always. Anyway, you are probably bored by now, so I will leave it at that. Though one other thing, Pilot Gunthor, governments CANNOT produce money and then claim it is worth anything. True value of money is determined by the markets and the value of the work to produce things that that money represents. The total value of work performed is dependent on many factors including but not limited to: scarcity of materials, market demand for products produced by that nation, debts owed and collected by that nation of other nations, total estimated possible output of that nation, etc. If you would like to know more, send me a private communication. My Neo-com mailbox wil take them if I am not immediately available.
Sky Grunthor Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.15 04:33:00 - [59] I am glad you did but in... Both myself and my antagonist have a flawed understanding of the way the market, economies and such work. I happen to think that mine is less flawed. You made some good points I think and on general and specifics you where probably absolutely correct. However I would contend that scarcity helps determine what the value actually is. scarcity does not determine how much value is in the pie. If you add raw materials, raw value from the environment, you have increased the ammount of wealth, the ammount of real value in the system. Because of this the pie is not stagnant but rather growing over time. I would think that the day to day and even catostraphic mechanisms of value loss are far outweighed by the value additions of that same day to day mechanisms of natural value injection, work based value injection, product creation... etc. While their are haves and have nots... generally the level of both haves and have nots increase over time. the have nots of today would conceivably be equivalant to the haves of yesteryear. The largest flaw in my understanding that I see is how the amount of monetary currency is increased... what those mechanisms are. In my tribal history money was created under the authority of the tribe. The elders created this money to be traded because the tribes as a whole determined that it would be representative of a certain value. They created it out of trust in a similar fashion that tyrants and nations created their own first currency out of trust or fear. The nature of currency creation, I would assume, is much more regulated in this day and age and I would believe that only certain agencies like concord are entrusted with the creation of currency to represent the value that is already present or available. even in my example... flawed as it is... the redeaming value of that currency was already present or available. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor
Orion GUardian	Posted - 2008.08.15 12:10:00 - [60] Perhaps its just a different perception, but I did not see the poor in Gallentean space being better of than the poor in the other empires, its just that they are better hidden behind the claims of them being few. I can't say that the poor in Amarr, Caldari and Minmatar are better of, because they aren't but at the same point you can't state that its better to be the poor in Gallente Space either, because even if "Freedom" is painted on your banners the only who are truly free are the ones that can make their own decisions without being dependand on something and even in the Gallente Federation that is only given for the rich, so the problem I have with taht is....that the Gallentean society can and does not live up to their claim of overall freedom, because it can't, as no Empire really can.

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