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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:07:00 -
[1]
Hello, I was recently thinking about mini blackholes and such and it hit me, I have a problem, if any of you can answer it it would be great.
Ok the makers of the LHC say that they can form a micro blackhole with a particle and near the speed of light, this makes sense because speed and mass are interchangable... However I do have a question, since light is damn near the same thing as any particle(such as an electron etc)why does light have so little mass? Its going the speed of light afterall.
In theory light should be a blackhole due to the speed its going.
Thanks in advance.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:07:00 -
[2]
Hello, I was recently thinking about mini blackholes and such and it hit me, I have a problem, if any of you can answer it it would be great.
Ok the makers of the LHC say that they can form a micro blackhole with a particle and near the speed of light, this makes sense because speed and mass are interchangable... However I do have a question, since light is damn near the same thing as any particle(such as an electron etc)why does light have so little mass? Its going the speed of light afterall.
In theory light should be a blackhole due to the speed its going.
Thanks in advance.
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Dheorl
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:13:00 -
[3]
Because of quantum.
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Dheorl
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:13:00 -
[4]
Because of quantum.
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Isiskhan
Gnostic Misanthropy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:16:00 -
[5]
Photons have no mass. That's why they can travel at the speed of light.
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Isiskhan
Gnostic Misanthropy
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:16:00 -
[6]
Photons have no mass. That's why they can travel at the speed of light.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Isiskhan Photons have no mass. That's why they can travel at the speed of light.
But light itself has mass, because if it hits some small object in space over a very long period of time it will effect it... Does that not give it mass?
I saw that on the history channel.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:19:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/08/2008 16:22:30
Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, and it's not quite 100% certain (like just about anything in science), but the most likely theory goes like this...
1. Photons have no rest mass at all. No speed-of-light particles have any rest mass at all. Photons only have an equivalent mass when travelling "at the speed of light", and the energy/impulse they have (therefore, the equivalent "mass") is determined by their wavelength. "Stop" a photon by any means, and it has absolutely no mass at all. Photons only have one possible speed, c, the speed of light. You can't slow them down, you can only alter their wavelength (and even that can only have certain values, NOT every possible value... the smallest possible variation is the "quanta"). Slow them down even the least bit below "speed of light" and they cease existing. The lowest possible energy variaton is based on h (Planck's constant).
2. Speed and mass are not interchangeable. Mass SEEMS to increase as you approach the speed of light, from the reference frame of the observer. From the reference frame of the speeding object, mass is constant. It's all about time dilation and stuff like that.
3. Black holes are not about total mass, they are about the mass' density. You can have black holes of a wide variety of masses, it's all about just how close together the "components" are. Whenever you get enough particles together close enough so that the total mass of the conglomerate is big enough to cause electric repulsion to be smaller than the strong nuclear force attraction, you can start calling the object a "black hole". Theoretically, you could also say black holes are a single atom, but of a HUGE atom mass. It is generally believed that neutron stars (not quite black holes but close enough) are mostly made out of neutrons or other degenerated particles (hence the sci-fi term of "neutronium", the hypothetical material made out almost entirely of neutrons, no protons). It's actually much more complicated than that too, I just gave you a very simplified (and somewhat incorrect) explanation.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dheorl Because of quantum.
It's pretty much this.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Plumpy McPudding
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:23:00 -
[10]
Magic __________________________
Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream. |
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 05/08/2008 16:22:30
Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, and it's not quite 100% certain (like just about anything in science), but the most likely theory goes like this...
1. Photons have no rest mass at all. No speed-of-light particles have any rest mass at all. Photons only have an equivalent mass when travelling "at the speed of light", and the energy/impulse they have (therefore, the equivalent "mass") is determined by their wavelength. "Stop" a photon by any means, and it has absolutely no mass at all. Photons only have one possible speed, c, the speed of light. You can't slow them down, you can only alter their wavelength (and even that can only have certain values, NOT every possible value... the smallest possible variation is the "quanta"). Slow them down even the least bit below "speed of light" and they cease existing. The lowest possible energy variaton is based on h (Planck's constant).
2. Speed and mass are not interchangeable. Mass SEEMS to increase as you approach the speed of light, from the reference frame of the observer. From the reference frame of the speeding object, mass is constant. It's all about time dilation and stuff like that.
3. Black holes are not about total mass, they are about the mass' density. You can have black holes of a wide variety of masses, it's all about just how close together the "components" are. Whenever you get enough particles together close enough so that the total mass of the conglomerate is big enough to cause electric repulsion to be smaller than the strong nuclear force attraction, you can start calling the object a "black hole". Theoretically, you could also say black holes are a single atom, but of a HUGE atom mass. It is generally believed that neutron stars (not quite black holes but close enough) are mostly made out of neutrons or other degenerated particles (hence the sci-fi term of "neutronium", the hypothetical material made out almost entirely of neutrons, no protons). It's actually much more complicated than that too, I just gave you a very simplified (and somewhat incorrect) explanation.
Ive always been lead to believe everything has some kind of mass, how is it that photons can lack mass altogether?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:26:00 -
[12]
Because they're not REALLY particles, they're only exhibiting particle-like properties when interacting with particles. Photons are basically pure energy.
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Plumpy McPudding
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:28:00 -
[13]
Codswallop. If the clown can fit in the car than it is in fact a clown. Painting pictures of different things than what they actually are is wrong! __________________________
Fear me for I have an insatiable appetite! Proprietor and inventor of Chocolate Chip Chocolate Donut flavored Ice Cream. |
Inara Subaka
Caldari the united
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Posted - 2008.08.05 16:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: goodby4u Ive always been lead to believe everything has some kind of mass, how is it that photons can lack mass altogether?
Particle/Wave Theory confounds the best of minds. Basically, light isn't made of mass, it's simply energy... however it acts like a particle in certain instances.
Photon packets have 0 mass, but the energy that they are made of can be used to interact with particles that have mass.
To Akita T, actually, they can now stop photon packets... I forget the details on it, and it's only for milliseconds, but they can stop light waves from moving.
Akita's 2nd point was spot on, as an object get closer to the speed of light, it's frame of reference for time changes. And due to the temporal differences, the mass appears to increase for those observing from outside it's frame of reference. (if you want a bigger headache than particle wave theory, go look into temporal mechanics).
Blackholes are a conundrum in themselves. They can be infinitely big but at the exact same time they can be contained within the area of a pin head. If you remember basic physics/chemistry, you know there is a LOT of "empty" space inside of atoms (between the nucleus and the electron cloud)... well, if you collapse atoms to the point where there is no "empty space" you can collapse something the size of the Empire State building to about the size of a grain of rice (possibly smaller). Now imagine doing that to something with the mass of the Sun... okay, now imagine something that dense the size of our Sun... the gravity well eventually distorts space to the point that there is an infinitely "deep" "hole" in the fabric of space/time.
Oh, and if you REALLY wanna have fun. Imagine a few atoms of hydrogen, being circulated through a particle accelerator that is only a few feet in diameter (something that hasn't been created yet, but give it time) till they near the speed of light. Their relative mass, in relation to the rest of the world will increase to near infinite (the closer to c the hydrogen is moving, the more the relative mass). Which means that they create a MASSIVE gravity well of their own... Artificial gravity and interstellar propulsion all in one concept.
I have to agree with Akita on another thing, this is a very over-simplified version of things.
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Zephyr Rengate
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Plumpy McPudding Magic
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Fabien Aldric
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:03:00 -
[16]
It's simple: If a particle has mass, it can't move with the speed of light.
If a particle has no mass (like photons), the speed of light is the only speed it can move at.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Inara Subaka
Originally by: goodby4u Ive always been lead to believe everything has some kind of mass, how is it that photons can lack mass altogether?
Particle/Wave Theory confounds the best of minds. Basically, light isn't made of mass, it's simply energy... however it acts like a particle in certain instances.
Photon packets have 0 mass, but the energy that they are made of can be used to interact with particles that have mass.
To Akita T, actually, they can now stop photon packets... I forget the details on it, and it's only for milliseconds, but they can stop light waves from moving.
Akita's 2nd point was spot on, as an object get closer to the speed of light, it's frame of reference for time changes. And due to the temporal differences, the mass appears to increase for those observing from outside it's frame of reference. (if you want a bigger headache than particle wave theory, go look into temporal mechanics).
Blackholes are a conundrum in themselves. They can be infinitely big but at the exact same time they can be contained within the area of a pin head. If you remember basic physics/chemistry, you know there is a LOT of "empty" space inside of atoms (between the nucleus and the electron cloud)... well, if you collapse atoms to the point where there is no "empty space" you can collapse something the size of the Empire State building to about the size of a grain of rice (possibly smaller). Now imagine doing that to something with the mass of the Sun... okay, now imagine something that dense the size of our Sun... the gravity well eventually distorts space to the point that there is an infinitely "deep" "hole" in the fabric of space/time.
Oh, and if you REALLY wanna have fun. Imagine a few atoms of hydrogen, being circulated through a particle accelerator that is only a few feet in diameter (something that hasn't been created yet, but give it time) till they near the speed of light. Their relative mass, in relation to the rest of the world will increase to near infinite (the closer to c the hydrogen is moving, the more the relative mass). Which means that they create a MASSIVE gravity well of their own... Artificial gravity and interstellar propulsion all in one concept.
I have to agree with Akita on another thing, this is a very over-simplified version of things.
Thanks! this clears up everything, I do understand all of the stuff you said(surprisingly I did infact)and it makes perfect sense.
I dont really care if its oversimplified, I just need to know the basis for why this stuff happens like it does purely through curiousity, thanks inara and akita.
Now, go ahead make this thread about whatever yall want.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:16:00 -
[18]
This thread is now about Morena Baccarin. GO !
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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AmosTrask
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Posted - 2008.08.05 17:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Akita T This thread is now about Morena Baccarin. GO !
Morena Baccarin was born in Rio De Janero, Brazil in 1979, but was raised in New York City. She was exposed to the world of acting at a very young age through her mother, Vera Setta, a well-known Brazilian actress who worked on both stage and television.
In 1989, Morena and her family moved to Greenwich Village, New York. A few years later she attended the Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School of Music & Art and Performing Arts, the High School made famous in the movie Fame and the subsequent television series of the same name. Upon graduation, she was accepted into the prestigious Julliard School for the Performing Arts, and while there she was one of the subjects of the PBS series American Masters which focused on the school and the students.
Morena landed her first film role in 2001 in the independent film Perfume, which turned a critical eye on the fashion business and the lives of those who work in it. The same year she played the lead role of Rebecca in the film Way Off Broadway, which garnered rave reviews and earned Morena the "Best Actress" award at the Wine Country Film Festival.
After a minor role in the film Roger Dodger in 2002, Morena appeared in the Central Park production of The Seagull with Natalie Portman. She also was the understudy for PortmanĘs role.
Later the same year, she got her first television role as Inara Serra on the critically acclaimed series Firefly. The series was cancelled after only eleven episodes were aired, but Universal Studios was so impressed with the show and the cast that they greenlighted a silver screen continuation of the story. The movie, called Serenity, opened in September of 2005 to almost universal raves from critics.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:06:00 -
[20]
You could have just said "Inara in Firefly/Serenity, Adria in Stargate SG-1" and we would have gotten it without the wikipedia quote (it's from wikipedia, right?)
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: AmosTrask
Originally by: Akita T This thread is now about Morena Baccarin. GO !
-Stuff-
Not to mention she is gorgeous...
Topic Change: Jewel Staite
Jewel Staite > Morena Baccarin
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:11:00 -
[22]
Adria >> Dr. Jennifer Keller but Kaylee >> Inara so it's a tie, I'd say
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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Inara Subaka
Caldari the united
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Akita T Adria >> Dr. Jennifer Keller but Kaylee >> Inara so it's a tie, I'd say
Touche.
I think it might be more accurate to say they both win in different ways. It's like comparing silk and chocolate... both are great, neither is "better", but in completely different leagues.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.08.05 18:18:00 -
[24]
This thread is now about silk-wrapped chocolate. GO !
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THE APPRENTICE || mineral balance || nanofix
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