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NPC corps are too safe. Risk/Reward hurfdurf

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Author	Topic
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:38:00 - [1] I think the entire war-dec scenario needs overhauled. It shouldn't be used as a pay-to-grief program. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 13:52:00 - [2] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Originally by: Ruze I think the entire war-dec scenario needs overhauled. It shouldn't be used as a pay-to-grief program. Given the fact that there are dozens of methods, for anyone with a grasp of tactics, to avoid a fight... griefing is hardly the word. Don't get me wrong, war decs are used by many as a legitimate means to carry out grievances. But they are also used by 'hardcore pvp' corporations to have big, easy and soft targets available in high-sec. If they can boost their kill 'stats', get a few isk and have a bunch of laughs because someone whines in local, it's not a bad thing, right? I don't think that these can be ignored. So many players stay in the NPC's corps for exactly that reason. There are just too many self-proclaimed PvPers out there who want nothing but an easy win. Give them coordinated resistance, and they run off or complain themselves. But sadly, not every noob corp out there has a grasp of tactics or organization. Which is the primary reason these people ask for NPC corps to be wardec able. C'mon, we all know that using the 'macro miner' excuse is just that, an excuse. People fight off macro workers every day with suicide attacks and such. Stop giving us BS, and just say it ... "I want to beat up on little kids" The war dec mechanism is one-sided and will probably stay that way. To balance it out, I can imagine that NPC corporations will stay the way they are, too. The more things change in EvE, the more they stay the same. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:22:00 - [3] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: FlameGlow Ability to put a POS and use it, entire corp having agro on loot thief? Those are available when it's just you and your alts in corp, real corps have other benefits too On the other hand, the tax rate and daily running costs for NPC corpers are zero. That would count as a reward. My corp has zero tax rate. And it's got a nice, organizable hangar, and allows me all these nifty 'order for the corp' functions. I get my own office, I get my own customizable nicknames, and if I'm ever wardec'd, I can leave my alt in the corp and just hop out into an NPC corp ... or really **** off the enemy, and make a new one ;?j Remove the invincibility of npc corps, and then you have to address the ease of running your own corp. I can corp hop all day. You don't have to be in an NPC corp to be invincible. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:43:00 - [4] If you really want to address macro issues, then make it simple. Players cannot use mining barges or exhumers in high-sec space. One good reason for this is because Empires USE those asteroids for their own navies and whatnot. It might be one thing to give someone a license to take out a vexor and mine, but to allow them in a full barge? I don't think an Empire would really allow that. Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills. Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 14:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Dirk Magnum I read in the Hello Kitty threadnought someone's suggestion that once somebody hits 5 million SP's they are automatically moved into their Empire's militia as a "global service". That might be a good solution to the problem of security in NPC corps. I can't really see how it would solve anything. You would still be undeccable by the people you annoy, and it's not particularly hard to stay away from the roaming gangs of the enemy factions. They'd only be a threat if they randomly happened to stumble across you (while being chased by navy NPCs in a hostile system). They'd have very little reason to actively hunt you down they way they would if you were subject to a real wardec, mainly because you'd go on missioning and mining and never draw any attention to yourself. But is your intent to increase the RISK involved, or to make the target something you can wardec? I think the intent should be to increase the risk. If they get into the militia as an involuntary sign-up, they may start looking for an active corporation to move into. If not, they WILL have that inevitable risk of being caught in a system by a roving militia gang.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.06 15:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Aria Seniste Originally by: Ruze Secondly, trial accounts. Trial accounts are restricted in space .5 or higher. Can only chat in their noob corp and the help channel. Can't send mail. Can't send money or train a large portion of skills. Then you add the 5mil sp shift, and you've got an interesting system. This is an awful idea. The game is already limited enough to trial players; too limited, really. A new player who wants to try FW will not be able to without upgrading to a paying account. Now, they lose even more trainable skills, can't even talk to other players effectively, can't even explore lowsec? ...You do realize that the point of a trial is to make a good impression on a potential player, right? Fun fact: Making them feel unwanted and taking even more fun out of the game is not the way to do this. Waaaah, I have to block some idiot macro spammer and so everyone should suffer. I CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO RIGHT CLICK The big issue is that trial accounts are used for spys and alts. I know they are. I use them myself. And I recognize it as an exploit in the system. You make a trial account, you spend a day or two grinding missions, and then you have a dozen days to use that alt to monitor a races chat channel or to coast in a noob frigate through low-sec space as a scout. I firmly believe in restricting their chat channels, yes. They can WATCH other channels, but they can't speak. They can receive mail, but they can't send. This does work, as it works in many other games, including the restricted zones. Personally, I think that the skills they can train are enough. Two weeks? Yeah, that's is long enough to get a NEW player hooked, or to convince a new player not to play. Just my opinion, but trial accounts are the number one exploited function of this game, and they need to be 'fixed'. Not removed completely, but limited to where and how they can interact, yes. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 00:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Napro What really is the problem? If people don't want to PvP... why do you want to force them too? The problem is that, from the beginning, EVERYONE has been subjective to PvP in some shape, form or fashion. That is what makes this game so great for many. But with each passing change, we lose OUR game (the PvP-centered, every man for themselves, come-with-it-all or leave-with-nothing game), and you gain yours. My biggest complaint is that those who are in high-sec are forgetting that the market is PvP, too. And while Bill goes into low-sec and risks himself every day, Jim sits in high-sec running multiple missions, and can sell the loot and his LP rewards, without ever being under direct risk of losing out. You can't exist in EvE without dealing with other players. When you buy a ship, another player produced it. When you buy a module, it was either made or looted by another player. Every step you take, you are participating in PvP. But your saying you want the one side, without the risk of the other? Meanwhile, other players actually want MORE! They want more missions, with better payouts. They want more factory slots, and more asteroids. They want everything the rest of the game requires you to fight and die for, but they want it without the fighting and dying part. There is a serious imbalance between the PvP and PvE side of this game. If the only loot you could get from the PvE side was meta 1 or 2, and unnamed modules? If the isk you gained from doing missions in high-sec was severely limited? If you could only run T1 BPO's and were limited to the number of factories you could run in high-sec? And if you weren't allowed to use Exhumers ... or maybe even barges? Then there would be no problem, because you wouldn't be AS imbalanced as before. If you want the good stuff, you NEED to go to low-sec and 0.0 to get it. Plain and simple. And if you want complete security and safety, you need to make a hefty sacrifice of how much of the game you are going to enjoy. If your not willing to participate, you don't deserve anything. That's my opinion, anyhow. "The greatest offense is no defense."
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 11:32:00 - [8] Honestly, they should make hisec safer. I'm serious. Allow corporations to 'buy out' of wars, bribe CONCORDS pockets to make the invulnerable in hisec. No, I'm not joking. Combine that with this, allow NPC corporations to stay as is. LET HISEC BE SECURE! Then, very simply, remove the profitability from high-end stuff from hisec. Remove level 4's. Don't allow mining barges or exhumers. Don't allow T2 items to be produced in hisec factories, or researched in hisec stations. Limit the maximum number of jobs that ANY player can have in hisec. Make it so that if your over three months old, and you want to make money, you have to go out and get it. The more security you have, the more restricted you should be from making profit. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 16:55:00 - [9] When I first started, you were looked down on for hanging in NPC corps. Player corps were where you should be. Anyone caught going into losec in a newb corp was considered a spy and shot on sight, even by the 'good' guys, because those same players were still trying to avoid an entire dedication behind the game itself. So you joined a player corp, and probably got wardec'd. Or, you went into low sec. Pirates were there, but there were also a bunch of antipirate and defense corporations. Going into lowsec wasn't a huge deal, because it was just an extension of hisec. I don't remember a distinct 'I'm minding my own business' mentality back then, not like there is now. People want to play a single player game now, or very close to it. It's been perverted, somehow over the last year, from a massive player mentality of fight and survive, to 'i play my game, you play yours'. But we play one game. Every item you sell cuts into my profit. And I'm risking MY life and limb to make that profit, while you have no threats. Being ostensibly a carebear now myself, I understand why you want 'security'. But the truth is, that ain't EvE, despite what you believe. Or, maybe I am wrong. Maybe it's IS EvE, or the new EvE. Being gone for about a year and a half really made the changes from then and now noticable. So, you want to be secure? Well, you should be restricted. Taxes to pay for your invulnerability to wardecs. Employment opportunities limited because you ARE employed with an NPC corporation already. Here's a thought: Give each agent a limited number of missions. Either provide a first-come-first-serve approach, or one where your standings with the empire and corporation are taken into account. That way, even missioners have to compete in high-sec for the good missions. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Somealt Ofmine When was it that you were required to be available for PvP in Eve (i.e. required to join a player corporation or some other entity that could become a war target)? It doesn't look to me like this will make them 100% safe either. However, it does look like it will make suiciding far less economically viable than it is, and not something you can do as a career, which it was never (as far as I know) intended to be. The mechanic in place from the git-go has been if you are a criminal you fairly quickly get pushed out of high-sec. They're just fixing it so that happens as intended, and it isn't so quick and easy to get back in once you're out. Yes, there has always been unconsensual PvP in high sec in EvE, but nothing like it has been the last year. When I first started playing it was rare to see a "Concorde Convention" at a gate because someone just suicided there. Now, I can't go three jumps in any direction without seeing one. It needed addressing. I'm glad they did. Never, but that's not the point. At no time in the development of Eve have people been safe from PvP in High Sec. They don't have to be in a deccable corp. Unconsensual PvP is one of the defining trademarks of Eve. If you either don't like it OR you can't learn to accept it (and I use the term "you" as a reference to everyone), then congratulations, you're the person that the term "gb2 WoW" was invented for. This post started before the new dev blog. We haven't even been talking about the security fix. It's a different issue altogether. It is more concerned with the mentality that EvE is two games, one PvP, and one solely PvE. That mentality is false, at least it was, and the belief is that there needs to be some ways to rectify it so that PvP is not cast aside as the foundation of the game. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.

Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 17:58:00 - [11] PvP is incorrectly associated to many newcomers as nothing but griefers and gankers. This is NOT the founding principle of EvE. Player vs. player, be it combat, money or influence, IS the founding principle of EvE. Being completely, utterly immune to any of these should require significant losses to compensate. EvE is about competition and survival. It's as much a bias to lump every pvper into a class of twelve-year-old, e-peen waving, sadistic wannabe killer tough-guys, as it is to lump every carebear into the class of 40-year-old, crying, can't leave their mothers house, cowardly, insecure LARPers. So, put your groupism or whatever you want to call it aside for the sake of this argument. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:25:00 - [12] Who do you think you sell your loot too? Who do you buy your ships from? If all players were removed from the server tomorrow, you would get SOME modules through loot, but otherwise, everything else is provided by players. You would have the bigginer frigate to fly around in. Guiness book of World Records. EvE has the largest player-driven economy or somesuch award. Very little is made by NPC's. Heck, even shuttles aren't made by NPC's anymore, or so I've heard. You can't loot everything. This isn't WoW, where everything can function perfectly well off of NPC drops. In EvE, things HAVE to be made. That's part of your PvP you experience, right there. Unless you want to admit that you only use a noob frigate. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 18:45:00 - [13] And there we come to my true concern: Why are you more valuable than me? Because of money. It's like how the American government works, to be honest. We don't take bribes in America ... we do it out in the open, and call it lobying. You and those who want to have no combat interaction with other players are MORE IMPORTANT than those who first came to the game, because there are simply more players who enjoy that style. Don't get me wrong, I'll play EvE until it's no fun anymore, then I'll leave. If I'm morally opposed to the changes, I'll say so, but that's because we have been given the method for expressing our disapproval, or our approval, no? But there are plenty of MMO's in the world that do exactly what your wanting. Now there's another, and your happy. Good for you. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 19:35:00 - [14] Edited by: Ruze on 07/08/2008 19:36:48 Your point of view, Cassandra, seems to focus on the fact that people use the term 'PvP' to talk about combat between player vs. player. Our point is that there is more to PvP than just what the one use of the term defines. Here's some other assumptions about 'PvP': - All PvPers are griefers and bullies, not wanting a fair fight but just an easy kill. - War decs are just so griefers can target carebears, and have no real purpose. - Suicide attacks are nothing but griefer alts destroying ships that they don't care about to cause someone to cry. - FW is a perfect example of PvP. It's consensual, it's organized, and it has a point. - All pirates are nothing but griefers. But when we argue that EvE is a player vs. player game, we are showing that there is a very BASIC NPC structure laid down, and everything on top of that is provided by players. Interaction. Modules and ships. Markets. Minerals. Blueprints. Piracy (as in, actually killing another player for profit). Corporation wars (where one corp is invading territory claimed by another, including asteroid belts, market resources, sell points or anti-pirate vs. pirate squabbles). Then you get into Faction Warfare, which is much like battlegrounds from PvE games like WoW. And then there's 0.0, which includes issues of soverienty and security. Every 'profession' in EvE takes part in PvP, from miniscule ammounts to major battles. If your mining, your buying mining ships, or selling minerals, or selling reprocessed goods. If you producing, you buying minerals, or selling products, or using factory slots that other players also need. Even if your missioning, your probably selling all that loot you get to someone, and buying things from others. So what I'm discussing, is that missioning should have more conflict between players working for an agent, so that they don't FORGET that EvE is about competition. You can dismiss our arguments, that's fine. Hopefully others won't. So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.07 19:55:00 - [15] Yeah, EvE has a very cutthroat nature about it. The way I was raised, your supposed to fight fair. But my generation doesn't care about fairness, it's all about winning. I've spent most of my short life, so far, trying to figure out why everyone was so mean. Truth is, people are cruel. They'll do anything to protect themselves, and those that they associate with. If there is no law, they will even go so far as to rob, ****, and kill to ensure their success in life. I think that's human nature. EvE represents that. Other games water it down, and convince you that there's always someone upstairs to protect you. Oh, some cop will come along when gunshots are fired. Some policeman will keep the badguys away. I'm not doing anything, why would anyone attack me?!? That's naivety, right there, and it's proliferated by so many other MMO's. Life is worse than that. The legal system doesn't care whether your really good or innocent, as long as it protects it's reputation and keeps the 'guilty' verdicts up high. Your neighbor doesn't care a damn cent if something goes on in your house, unless it affects him. And when they DO care, it's usually some old woman who spends all her time judging you for your weird behavior. I don't pirate, but I'm no longer surprised by it. EvE makes sense to me now, because I'm no longer trying to figure out why SOME people are cruel. Do what you can, survive how you survive, but if you always expecting someone to make the world safe for you, your asking to get hurt. Sad theology, ain't it? God helps those who helps themselves, as many a preacher will quote you. Well, in game as it is in life, if you want to be really secure, you need to take it upon yourself, no? So you want security? That's perfectly alright. But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security.

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