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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.07 01:18:00 -
[1]
Here's an idea to tone down the profit margin and it's huge difference between high and low-sec.
- Mining in high-sec has to be done in frigates, cruisers or industrials. No barges or exhumers (these need toughened up, too, but that's a different post). RP Reasoning: Empire corporations only allow 'recreational' mining in high-sec, because they also have miners who mine those minerals for the Empires navy, etc. Real reasoning: High-sec mining will have a much smaller yield, and while it will be perfect for new pilots to get their mining done, it's only the first step. And with the price of veld as it is now, just shifting minerals would be folly and useless, I believe.
- High-sec agents only deliver missions that require a battlecruiser or smaller. No battleship-level missions, including some level 3's and all level 4's. RP Reasoning: While capsuleers are entitled to fly nearly any class of ship through an Empires most secure space, bringing a battleship into missions might lead to having too many powerful ships in that space, threatening the Empire. Real reasoning: High-sec missions are for newer pilots, and should be geared towards helping pilots focus on smaller ships, and being better with them, before they move into more dangerous waters.
- High-sec loot, both from rats and from mission spawns, only drop unnamed and named meta 1 and 2 modules. Named meta 3 and 4 modules, as well as faction modules, can be looted in low-sec, and officer and tech 2 modules can be looted in 0.0. RP reasoning: *don't have one off the top of my head*. Real reasoning: Players selling meta 3 and 4 modules are competing directly with industrialists producing T2 modules. This PvP cannot be allowed without combat as a possible recourse.
- High-sec industry, including factory and research jobs, are limited to only a few jobs per user (maybe two or three) across the entire Empire high-sec, and cannot produce or research T2 BPO's or items. T2 items CAN be produced in low-sec, and there is no factory or science limitation in low-sec. RP reasoning: Fair use laws in high-sec work to allow every manufacturer the right to compete for a slot. Real reasoning: Industry will have more necessity to use low-sec operations.
- High-sec war dec's are not null and void. NPC corporations are invulnerable to war-dec's, and player corporations can 'rent' invulnerability from war dec's, at a hefty fee per month (roughly the cost of a war dec). While this makes them invulnerable from attacks in high-sec, the war dec is still active, and has no restrictions to low-sec. RP Reasoning: if NPC corps an do it, player corps can too. Real reasoning: Players must spend isk to be protected, but they should never be completely free.
TL:DR Version: Move crucial elements of the game into low-sec, allowing high-sec to be as secure as needed. This includes named module loot, high level/reward missions, and mass production industry slots.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Captain Roberts
Caldari
Universal Star
Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 01:48:00 -
[2]
Hello,
The game currently allows players to enjoy themselves entirely in high sec, never entering low sec or zero space and being forced into PVP. This is a brilliant idea, as it allows two types of players to play the game: Those who do not want pvp, and those that do.
By forcing aspects of the game into lowsec or zero space, you are now forcing players who would prefer not to pvp into pvp regions in order to accomplish desirable missions or to construct desirable technologies.
This handicaps the game's ability to appeal to the maximum number of players, and hence is illogical.
--Captain Roberts
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Artemis Rose
Odd End of the Universe
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Posted - 2008.08.07 01:55:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Captain Roberts
This handicaps the game's ability to appeal to the maximum number of players, and hence is illogical.
I think the best part of this game happens to be the fact that is not mainstream, and it offers a different gameplay experience than grinding, PvE fanatsy MMOs.
This is supposed to be a cold harsh universe. I mean, I signed up, I love it for being a cold harsh universe.
Of EVE players, I don't think I'm a minority, thus I think its a sad day when the game direction compromises what makes EVE so unique in the name of mass appeal.
__________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 01:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Captain Roberts
Hello,
The game currently allows players to enjoy themselves entirely in high sec, never entering low sec or zero space and being forced into PVP. This is a brilliant idea, as it allows two types of players to play the game: Those who do not want pvp, and those that do.
By forcing aspects of the game into lowsec or zero space, you are now forcing players who would prefer not to pvp into pvp regions in order to accomplish desirable missions or to construct desirable technologies.
This handicaps the game's ability to appeal to the maximum number of players, and hence is illogical.
--Captain Roberts
That's exactly the point. While the game appealing to two audiences is nice, they conveniently overlap in many locations. Players who stay in high-sec, performing level 4 missions over and over and selling off those modules, compete with low-sec and 0.0 industrialists who are trying to do the same, but with more risk.
I say, if you want a COMPLETELY secure space to play in, then you need to sacrifice for it. You should have to go out of your way to get good gear and components.
The concept is not for a player to sit in high-sec for his entire life-time. I'm sure CCP can recognize that farming missions and mining veldspar is boring enough that most players wouldn't last three months before cancelling. But if you make a natural progression of both value and risk, from high-sec into 0.0, you can string players from one part of the game into the other.
You can NOT balance a PvE game with a PvP game. This is failed multiple times in multiple games. PvP and PvE functions work differently. So the further along the game goes towards a PvE, WoW-in-space game, the more issues the devs are going to have with each side arguing for content and being nerfed/buffed due to a game misuse by the other party.
EvE is NOT two games. It is one. And along it all, is player-vs-player. Market, Industry, Mining or Combat, it is still you against all the other capsuleers. Unless high-sec is restricted from only selling to high-sec, and can't buy from low-sec, etc, etc, this 'separation' won't work.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Lui Kai
Better Than You
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:01:00 -
[5]
Lowsec does need some type of added appeal. ******edly gimping highsec life, and false mechanics like this won't convince the high-sec folks to move to lowsec. It'll just cause them to quit.
This kind of suggestion gets thrown out about once every 2 months, and thankfully is never listened to.
----------------
Ambulation Answers
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Banana Torres
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Of EVE players, I don't think I'm a minority
You think wrong.
Go read some of Dr. EyjoG excellent Economic Newsletters and appraise yourself of the truth.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:14:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 02:15:02
Originally by: Captain Roberts
Hello,
The game currently allows players to enjoy themselves entirely in high sec, never entering low sec or zero space and being forced into PVP. This is a brilliant idea, as it allows two types of players to play the game: Those who do not want pvp, and those that do.
By forcing aspects of the game into lowsec or zero space, you are now forcing players who would prefer not to pvp into pvp regions in order to accomplish desirable missions or to construct desirable technologies.
Hello.
Players racking ISK in high-sec are participating in PvP, and high-sec operations are very often used to, in fact, fund PvP. PvP isn't just blowing up ships. It's economic in nature as well.
Example: If, for instance, all the ice belts were in low-sec&0.0, then alliance X could attempt to disrupt alliance Y's pos chain by attacking/holding these belts. Currently, miners (or alts) can support alliance Y's operations (read: PvP) by virtually 100% safe means. That's good game balance, isn't it?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ruze
Players who stay in high-sec, performing level 4 missions over and over and selling off those modules, compete with low-sec and 0.0 industrialists who are trying to do the same, but with more risk.
I say, if you want a COMPLETELY secure space to play in, then you need to sacrifice for it. You should have to go out of your way to get good gear and components.
The concept is not for a player to sit in high-sec for his entire life-time. I'm sure CCP can recognize that farming missions and mining veldspar is boring enough that most players wouldn't last three months before cancelling. But if you make a natural progression of both value and risk, from high-sec into 0.0, you can string players from one part of the game into the other.
You can NOT balance a PvE game with a PvP game. This is failed multiple times in multiple games. PvP and PvE functions work differently. So the further along the game goes towards a PvE, WoW-in-space game, the more issues the devs are going to have with each side arguing for content and being nerfed/buffed due to a game misuse by the other party.
EvE is NOT two games. It is one. And along it all, is player-vs-player. Market, Industry, Mining or Combat, it is still you against all the other capsuleers. Unless high-sec is restricted from only selling to high-sec, and can't buy from low-sec, etc, etc, this 'separation' won't work.
This, basically.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Captain Roberts
Caldari
Universal Star
Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:19:00 -
[9]
Hello,
Having spent time in both highsec and lowsec, I find your perception of a fault to be flawed. This game is many things to many people, and I frankly would like to keep it that way. Eve isn't just two games, it is many. If someone wants to run a corp exec who spends his life in the Jita system, and that makes him happy, then that's just fine.
There is a lot of money to be made in lowsec and zero space, where every location is brimming with danger. Even ordinary ships and modules tend to sell for more money there, because transporting goods in from elsewhere is dangerous. It is also dangerous to go on long shopping trips unescorted in lowsec or zero space, so many players prefer to buy local, even if they have to pay more for their gear.
As for RP reasoning, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Saying that the best technology should be available only in zero space is like saying that Africa and Iraq should have the most advanced technology anywhere. After all, they're not well regulated, right? Truth is, dangerous undeveloped regions tend to have to cope with inferior native goods, other nation's castoffs, and high priced smuggled goods. High tech products are manufactured in stable regions with strong government presence.
There are enough good reasons to go to lowsec, including setting up your own stations, mining moons, finding high value asteroids, and killing million-dollar rats. There is no need to manufacture artificial reasons to go lowsec. The game provides enough incentive.
If your premise is that lowsec dwellers can't compete with highsec dwellers in their cushy safe systems... I disagree. Lowsec seems suspiciously well populated for a region that theoretically lacks money making potential, and has no ability to compete with highsec players and corps. It's not broken. Don't fix it.
--Captain Roberts
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.07 02:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Captain Roberts
Having spent time in both highsec and lowsec, I find your perception of a fault to be flawed. This game is many things to many people, and I frankly would like to keep it that way. Eve isn't just two games, it is many. If someone wants to run a corp exec who spends his life in the Jita system, and that makes him happy, then that's just fine.
Make him unable to:
(a) trade on the market
(b) send his ISK to anyone, including his PvP alt
(c) hire mercs/etc
(e) use his funds gotten in high-sec to go out and fight in low-sec
and then it's fine and balanced, because he's not affecting anyone else. Otherwise, no.
Furthermore, if someone wants to fund his PvP main with 4 AFK mining hulks (or mission runner dominixes, or w/e), is that still fine too? Is that still not affecting anyone else? It's a strangely common situation, you know. Will you openly say that someone funding PvP from perfectly safe and un-attackable means is fine?
Originally by: Captain Roberts
finding high value asteroids
Veldspar is in high-sec too. And it is the mineral you're after, you know. Check tritanium prices.
Originally by: Captain Roberts
, and killing million-dollar rats.
Biggest non-faction (which are very rare) rat in low-sec is 300K ISK roughly. Have you in fact been to low-sec? Even those are rare.
Originally by: Captain Roberts
Lowsec seems suspiciously well populated for a region that theoretically lacks money making potential, and has no ability to compete with highsec players and corps. It's not broken. Don't fix it.
Yeah, because 90% of low-sec PvPers have L4 mission farming alts, so they compete OK.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
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Captain Roberts
Caldari
Universal Star
Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.07 03:02:00 -
[11]
Hello,
I have some comments on your responses.
First of all. No one is safe. Highsec is just 'safer.'
Kind of like how operating out of silicon valley is safer than operating out of Bosnia. People do still get mugged and assassinated. It's just harder to do it and get away with it.
Million dollar rat kills are not uncommon in lowsec (have you been there?) when you combine the bounty on the rat with the value of its gear. I had an alt who used to fly with a corp called REDEI, protecting our mining operations in zero space. The rats who patrolled the belts on our space were quite profitable.
Farming will occur in any game that has fields of acquirable goods. Be it asteroids or mission complexes. It's no revelation or even a problem that people farm complexes or rocks.
Now, I don't condone macro mining, or macro ratting, or any unmanned/unattended playing method. But that's not what you're talking about. That kind of behavior can occur even in zero space, so it's not applicable to our conversation.
Preventing highsec from trading, sending funds, or doing any other activity is rediculous. There is no logical reason to restrict these operations, and every reason to encourage them. You WANT people to earn money in highsec in order to fund lowsec operations, that way you can BLOW THEM UP AND STEAL THEIR STUFF. You WANT people to manufacture high tech goods in highsec and then deliver them to lowsec, as that way you can STEAL THEIR SH*T. You want lowsec players to make trips to Highsec for the best gear, because as they pass through narrow passages you can CAMP the passages and TAKE THEIR COOL FITTINGS! The existence of entire communities of wealthy people living in relative safety is what makes piracy profitable. Why desire to nerf it?
I really think you are inventing a problem where none exists. People who use highsec's advantages are your bread and butter if you want a life as a lowsec scumsucking pirate, thief, or crook.
--Captain Roberts
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.08.07 03:18:00 -
[12]
I'm a veteran player. I've been in game for years.
I've lived in 0.0 for years (with a couple of breaks, but about 80% of my game life has been 0.0).
I don't own a single officer module. Not one. I've never fitted an officer module to any of my ships, as I can't afford them. (I do fit some limited faction gear now then however....)
If someone wants to carebear in high sec, so he can buy a bunch of officer modules for his ship, my attitude is: "SWEET!!! Please fly out to Delve once you get your ship fitted!!!"
I DON'T CARE if the empire carebears grind out vast isk and are richer than me.
I DON'T CARE if my enemies are doing Lv 4s in complete safety in empire. If they spend all their time there, I LAUGH at them. Their Lv4 Mission isk has no meaning if none of their ships ever reach NOL-M9 for a dinner reservation.
I care VASTLY LESS about the genuine high sec carebears. I have ZERO bitterness about their existance, and even LESS bitterness about them making isk.
I do, however, get annoyed with folks who insist THEIR play style is the only valid one.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.07 03:31:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 07/08/2008 03:33:56
Quote:
Why desire to nerf it?
Ever consider that not everyone who wants to nerf hisec is not a ****ing pirate? Why the assumptions? Why do you think that people in lowsec are all pirates? They're not. Maybe we're PVEers in lowsec/0.0 who want to be adequately compensated for our risk, or maybe we're hisec players who want a reason to move into lowsec)?
If hisec is for money making and lowsec is for PVP then EVE is dead and Lowsec/nullsec is nothing but a glorified WoW battleground. Really, that's exactly what it is. Thankfully, that's not true.
The regions are not for different activities. Here's the way it's supposed to work (and should work to keep EVE to its core design philosophy).
Hisec: relatively safe unless you're wardecced or have a LOT of shit on a weak ship. Little ISK
Lowsec: Unsafe, gate guns/station guns help to some extent. MUCH greater rewards.
0.0: Safety is in the hands of the alliances that run the area, greatest rewards due to the effort required to maintain presence there.
Here's the way some people would have it:
Hisec: Where people go to farm ISK
Lowsec/0.0: where people go to pewpew other people.
That's stupid, lowsec/0.0 is not supposed to be a WoW-esque battleground, there's a reason hisec rats < lowsec rats < 0.0 rats, there's a reason there are more ores available in lower sec space. People are supposed to be mining in lowsec/0.0, people are supposed to be missioning in lowsec/0.0, people are supposed to be ratting in lowsec/0.0. NOT because they can, but because it's profitable.
The way it is now, the only way to make more ISK than a hisec level 4 runner is lowsec/0.0 runnning (marginally more profit, a metric ****load more risk) or 0.0 ratting (makes about the same). That's about it. Hisec ISK opportunities (at least mining/Mission wise, trading is fine as there's market risk) should pale in comparison to lowsec/0.0 opportunities, and that's just not so right now.
No one is trying to "Force" anyone to do anything, I don't care if not one of the missionrunners moves out of hisec. However, people should be appropriately rewarded for their risk, which is NOT happening right now. And people WOULD move out of hisec. Not the afraid-of-loss people, the people who are looking for a reason to venture out and have found none.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.07 03:38:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 03:38:34
Originally by: Captain Roberts
Million dollar rat kills are not uncommon in lowsec (have you been there?)
Do your homework. It's not complicated. Basically, I have been living exclusively in low-sec for the last year.
The biggest non-faction rats in low-sec are battlecruiser-sized rats which yield about 300K ISK. These are fairly rare. The generic rat drop from such a rat is about 200K worth of total trash. Occasionally you get lucky and they drop meta 4 stuff which is worth something, but it's fairly rare.
I used to do low-sec ratting as a noob before I got into piracy, it's not really profitable.
Originally by: Captain Roberts
The rats who patrolled the belts on our space were quite profitable.
In 0.0, yes, and still less profitable then farming L4s.
Originally by: Captain Roberts
Preventing highsec from trading, sending funds, or doing any other activity is rediculous. There is no logical reason to restrict these operations, and every reason to encourage them.
Well, then you can throw the 'they don't affect you' argument out of the window.
Originally by: Captain Roberts
You WANT people to earn money in highsec in order to fund lowsec operations, that way you can BLOW THEM UP AND STEAL THEIR STUFF.
I don't want people to have to earn money in high-sec to fund their lowsec operations efficently, because then low-sec operations are preety damn pointless. Also, if I'm fighting someone, I certainly as hell don't consider it remotely balanced he can afford to throw more and more expensive ships at me merely because his no-risk space provides better ISK making opportunities. Is that so hard to comprehend?
Originally by: Captain Roberts
People who use highsec's advantages are your bread and butter if you want a life as a lowsec scumsucking pirate, thief, or crook.
(a) If highsec has all the advantages, including profits, it kindof makes people not go to low-sec to conduct business.
(b) No, they are not. My bread and butter are, simply put, stupid/careless people (and people who misjudge their capabilities). It has nothing to do with them being based in low-sec/high-sec/0.0.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Artemis Rose
Odd End of the Universe
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Posted - 2008.08.07 03:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Of EVE players, I don't think I'm a minority
You think wrong.
Go read some of Dr. EyjoG excellent Economic Newsletters and appraise yourself of the truth.
Whatever the statistic on pilots residing in high sec (88% maybe), you have nothing to link them to having a desire for a minimized risk and a safer universe. A safety pin internet spaceship experience if you will.
Thanks for trying.
__________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.08.07 04:03:00 -
[16]
I just can't see a non-selfish reason for a 0.0 pvper to want more "risk/reward balance" (READ: More easy targets in 0.0). You like pvping in 0.0, isn't that enough?
While I'm impressed that you've provided RP reasons for everything, I don't really think they're all that relevant. CCP should make decisions consistent with design goals and then can back into any arbitrary RP reason it wants.
While I agree that there should be some more incentives to go to lowsec, they shouldn't be as draconian as the ones you propose (limits on factory slots, further limits on ship use in hisec). I think CCP wanted hisec to be a place where you can do something productive, not something analogous to lowbie zones in other MMOs, where you can't do anything productive as a veteran.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.07 04:09:00 -
[17]
Hisec is not supposed to be "where you go to get something productive done", nor is it a newbie zone. It's not supposed to be nearly as lucrative as other sec statuses, though.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:23:00 -
[18]
So let me give a few of ya'll an understanding as to what I am.
I'm a carebear. A level 4 running, hisec staying carebear. I'm waiting for ambulation, and I like to roleplay in channel.
Yes, over two years ago I did a brief stint in 0.0, and before that I lived in and out of low-sec. But the founding principle is that for a long while now, I've done nothing but stay in high-sec.
So why am I suggesting this? Because 50% of the games population spends all it's time in 25% of the games space. You see changes like this as doing nothing more than trying to FORCE you to PvP. I don't. I see changes like this as expanding the nature of EvE ... which is PvP ... so that us high-sec carebears don't FORGET it.
What we're quickly steamrolling towards is that everyone who wants to make money resides in hisec, grinds missions, then goes into low-sec on 'adventures'. This should NOT be about a no-pvp and a pvp zone.
In the end, the more carebears who enter lowsec, the better opportunities there are for players to group, defend one another and protect each others backs.
I'm bringing these things up because if you boost losec and 0.0, your going to end up raising the economic bar to a high degree. But if you remove only the things from high-sec that require a three-month old account to do, you appeal to the audience that NEEDS to be moving out of high-sec and making way. Guys like me. Players who have moved up far enough in the world, have enough SP, that they have an inkling of what they are doing and the ships to back it up. And hopefully have made a few contacts.
This is not about taking away the secure space for carebears. I believe you CANT, because of new players. And if old players want those same securities, by all means. But hisec should NOT be a place that is either profitable or can even make life interesting for a 90-day character.
Make hisec reflect what it is ... the beginners safety net. Allow losec to become the place where people can and NEED to migrate to in order to progress in game.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Shanur
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:32:00 -
[19]
The only way that more people will move from high sec to low sec is when there are more ways to fly in low sec than pirate and food. At present too many people are already the former and no body likes to be the latter. As long as the only way to avoid being prey while still staying solvent is to lean heavily on CONCORD, people will continue to do so. Upping the rewards of low sec, even lowering those of high sec will prove to be futile because they do not solve the root cause.
People do not stay in high sec because of its profitability, but because it's the only place they won't get constantly massacred.
Instead of thinking of ways to force people to become food, try thinking of ways that make it easier to avoid or eliminate pirates. Once the predators are thinned out enough, the food will come back by itself.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:35:00 -
[20]
If you think there is a problem with people being in high sec, then wtf are you doing carebearing in high sec? Go to low sec and go mission running there if you prefer that, but if others want to just do missions in high sec, let them.
The BOB post was excellent and summarizes exactly my opinion.
The idea behind eve is not non consensual pvp. The idea behind eve is internet spaceships.
Yep i got a billion isk ship somewhere in high sec to do lvl 4 missions. Havent used it in quite a while since i am mostly in 0.0 and low sec.
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Tippia
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ruze
- High-sec agents only deliver missions that require a battlecruiser or smaller. No battleship-level missions, including some level 3's and all level 4's.
L3s and L4 aren't exactly "battleship level", though – they can all be done easily in battlecruisers. The only reason to do them in a BS is because it's faster.
Quote:
High-sec loot, both from rats and from mission spawns, only drop unnamed and named meta 1 and 2 modules.
Sure, except for the unnamed part. Standard meta 0/T1 modules should only come from manufacturing.
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Myz Toyou
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:38:00 -
[22]
This can`t be serious cos after all the whine the carebears invested to get speed/suicide nerfed and own safety buffed.
Imagine all the tears filling up these forums if you take them away Hello Kitty Empire Online 
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[gold]Your signature image exceeds the maximum allo |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.07 11:38:00 -
[23]
That is the other issue. Putting more missions in line with PvP builds. The type of ship modules you have to use are so remarkably different! Three mission runners in pimped out ships will get owned by two pirates.
The upcoming speed nerf addresses ONE of those weaknesses; the afterburner. Now to just make active tanking profitable in PvP ...
The key is to get players to move in groups, and maybe offer a little Empire defense. The more mission runners running in a system, the more Empire fleet ships start warping around or something.
The pirates and prey issue is a real one. I can't argue that. But I also believe that hisec should be as secure as everyone wants it, to the point of allowing players to 'bribe' their way out of a war, or at least to become invulnerable to it in hisec. At the same time, hisec should also NOT be profitable for a character over three-months old. Secure, but no profit. Mining in barges, massive factory slots and level 4 missions make living in hisec the most secure and ranks it highly with the most profit you can make.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Victor Forge
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:25:00 -
[24]
I think this is thread no 796 or is it no 806? about starving High-sec to force players out to low-sec.
Give it up already.
Starving High-sec will only make the game a grind worthy Lineage 2 for those that like the PvE aspect of EvE and hate being ganked. They will quit when they feel the grind takes the fun out of the game.
And even those that already now once in a while pay low-sec a visit will be less tempted to do it since it will take a much longer time to recover from a ship loss.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwaMHJzruDU&feature=related |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Victor Forge
I think this is thread no 796 or is it no 806? about starving High-sec to force players out to low-sec.
Give it up already.
Starving High-sec will only make the game a grind worthy Lineage 2 for those that like the PvE aspect of EvE and hate being ganked. They will quit when they feel the grind takes the fun out of the game.
And even those that already now once in a while pay low-sec a visit will be less tempted to do it since it will take a much longer time to recover from a ship loss.
I think you might be right. And I don't think these changes will ever be seen, really. I do think hisec will be the death of itself, though.
Hisec will continue to grow as new customers come in. Already the mission hubs are getting overcroweded. All CCP has to do is continue to let players lag themselves out. So many players prefer to play in only 25% of the space, so something is going to have to change.
Will CONCORD extend into low-sec? Will more hisec systems be added? Or will CCP simply shard the server so that one is the 'traditional' server, and one is for consensual PvP only.
Players refuse to participate in non-consensual PvP, but they want more. I personally hope CCP sticks to their guns and says 'If you want more, go out and get it'. But I don't think that's going to end up being the case.
"The greatest offense is no defense."
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.08.07 12:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
I'm a veteran player. I've been in game for years.
I've lived in 0.0 for years (with a couple of breaks, but about 80% of my game life has been 0.0).
I don't own a single officer module. Not one. I've never fitted an officer module to any of my ships, as I can't afford them. (I do fit some limited faction gear now then however....)
If someone wants to carebear in high sec, so he can buy a bunch of officer modules for his ship, my attitude is: "SWEET!!! Please fly out to Delve once you get your ship fitted!!!"
I DON'T CARE if the empire carebears grind out vast isk and are richer than me.
I DON'T CARE if my enemies are doing Lv 4s in complete safety in empire. If they spend all their time there, I LAUGH at them. Their Lv4 Mission isk has no meaning if none of their ships ever reach NOL-M9 for a dinner reservation.
I care VASTLY LESS about the genuine high sec carebears. I have ZERO bitterness about their existance, and even LESS bitterness about them making isk.
I do, however, get annoyed with folks who insist THEIR play style is the only valid one.
This.
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Count Triton
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Posted - 2008.08.07 13:40:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
I'm a veteran player. I've been in game for years.
I've lived in 0.0 for years (with a couple of breaks, but about 80% of my game life has been 0.0).
I don't own a single officer module. Not one. I've never fitted an officer module to any of my ships, as I can't afford them. (I do fit some limited faction gear now then however....)
If someone wants to carebear in high sec, so he can buy a bunch of officer modules for his ship, my attitude is: "SWEET!!! Please fly out to Delve once you get your ship fitted!!!"
I DON'T CARE if the empire carebears grind out vast isk and are richer than me.
I DON'T CARE if my enemies are doing Lv 4s in complete safety in empire. If they spend all their time there, I LAUGH at them. Their Lv4 Mission isk has no meaning if none of their ships ever reach NOL-M9 for a dinner reservation.
I care VASTLY LESS about the genuine high sec carebears. I have ZERO bitterness about their existance, and even LESS bitterness about them making isk.
I do, however, get annoyed with folks who insist THEIR play style is the only valid one.
This.
I disagree with the OP's suggestions, and I feel if someone wants to earn a good living in high sec, they should be able to if they apply themself to it. I do agree that industry and the risk/reward system could benefit from some attention though.
Originally by: Ruze
Mining in high-sec has to be done in frigates, cruisers or industrials.
An easier way to achieve this might be to change the ore distribution system, decreasing the frequency with which standard ores appear in low sec, and replacing them low yield variants (e.g. Porous Scordite, Fractured Hedbergite).
Perhaps high sec mining rights could also be auctioned by the empires, in line with your RP reasoning and similar to the way in which Starbase Charters are required to operate a high sec POS.
These rights could only be granted to corporations, which would mean mining corporations wouldn't have to compete with randomly appearing, effectively invulnerable miners in NPC corps, and could engage in meaningful territorial conflicts with their corporate competitors.
Ore distribution could be reworked by introducing new types of mineral, some of which could only be produced from ores available in certain areas of 0.0, replacing the current system which has some ore variety, but very little mineral variety meaningful to industry. It could be possible to introduce these minerals by using the current invention system to produce T1 blueprints of existing items but with different mineral requirements.
Originally by: Ruze
High-sec loot, both from rats and from mission spawns, only drop unnamed and named meta 1 and 2 modules.
I agree in part with this, but I think the major problem with mission loot drops is not the high Meta items, but the low meta items which are usually reprocessed and provide access to bulk quantities of minerals which can normally only be mined in low sec or 0.0. Instead, T1 loot drops should be removed entirely, and named items should be made to refine into very little (RP reasoning: Named items are manufactured using more sophisticated techniques than T1; these techniques are expensive which is why named items are rarer, but they are also more efficient and require fewer materials.)
There are enough people killing enough NPCs, producing enough loot, that missioning and ratting has become a substitute for industry in some cases, without the cooperation, specialisation and investment in logistics and infrastructure which can make this part of the game challenging and fun. Killing NPCs is the only means of "manufacturing" the mid level items between T1 and T2, and, because of cost, effectiveness and skill requirements, these items are what many, maybe most people use.
I like the idea which has been proposed before: that named items that drop from NPCs should be damaged, and require material input to repair and market. |
MidnightMatriarch
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Posted - 2008.08.07 13:56:00 -
[28]
These ideas are stupid. Though i support nudging people into lowsec, giving people such a big ass shove would be a bad idea. Some people enjoy high sec, and not everyone likes PVP.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.07 14:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MidnightMatriarch
These ideas are stupid. Though i support nudging people into lowsec, giving people such a big ass shove would be a bad idea. Some people enjoy high sec, and not everyone likes PVP.
Very true. So you wish to remain in hisec, and compete with other players who live in losec and nulsec, but without the possibility of losing ships or equipment?
You introduce a massive influx of isk into the market, along with gear, while you have no material loss yourself. Yes, you prefer to play without COMBAT with another player, but you would probably not be as interested without being able to TRADE with other players.
So while the ideas may not be valid in themselves, the real issue is that players in hisec refuse to participate in the forms of the game that they don't like, but in turn are kept out of much of that content. That's what I'm suggesting. If you want the content, be it profit or simply harder missions, you should be willing to go get it.
Security is fine. But security should be traded for freedom. The freedom to have as much, the freedom to achieve as much, and the freedom to profit as much, as those who are willing to sacrifice safety to achieve it.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Johann Jeneau
Gallente
Cricas Portuguese Korp
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Posted - 2008.08.07 14:28:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Johann Jeneau on 07/08/2008 14:28:41
I agree with most of what Ruze says, i also thought that moving L4 missions to low-sec was a good ideia, now i dont think that way because i guess is nice to have some BS to shoot in High-sec so:
Improve ALOT the missions available, make them resemble more the PvP of EvE.
Reduce ALOT the isk/loot/LP gains from L3 and L4 high-sec missions, keep them alot more profitible in low-sec, i mean alot, like a L4 high-sec mission gives you less ISK/LOOT/LP then a L3 low-sec mission.
Take away most of the belts ore from high-sec, so if you are in a barge (exhummers out of High-sec) you will have to keep moving for different systems to have some ore(low quality/quantity) or scan some mining complexes (more complexes available but with reduce income to keep inline with the rest of high-sec).
This way ppl will still have Safe High-Sec and will actually have much better missions (CCP has to give way more different missions then they do now)
better missions = FUN right?
variety = FUN right?
but the so called PvPers and tuff guys will have to start making money in low-sec/0.0 instead of abusing high-sec alts
The money income will still be enough to any main that wishes to stay in empire, and will still be able to do everything they do there right now, probably even more.
The Industry and NPC corp stuff, i'm all with Ruze
PS: Is kinda sad that a game so called harsh blablabla is possible to PvP without caring for losses thanks to high-sec isk thru alts.
I like my steaks bloody as hell |
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