Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Your plan is greatly flawed.

A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.
B.) No one is gonna mission 23 hours a day.
C.) You can't build a titan in 14 hours, Therefore I don't believe that.

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Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Your plan is greatly flawed.

A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.
B.) No one is gonna mission 23 hours a day.
C.) You can't build a titan in 14 hours, Therefore I don't believe that.

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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25mil an hour just in an agent's reward payout? I highly doubt that.

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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25mil an hour just in an agent's reward payout? I highly doubt that.

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Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Originally by: Ruze

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Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Your plan is greatly flawed.

A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.
B.) No one is gonna mission 23 hours a day.
C.) You can't build a titan in 14 hours, Therefore I don't believe that.

---

For a, you are correct.

For b, you are wrong. Many players, be they through macro's or maybe just plain persistance, mission for 23 hours a day straight.

For c, I think he meant the COST of building a titan. Let him make it clear, but I think that his intent was that you could pay the overarching cost of having one built every 14 hours. I'm sure he felt that this little fact was obvious, but I guess it's not.

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A Normal person isn't gonna mission 23 hours a day.

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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25mil an hour just in an agent's reward payout? I highly doubt that.

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So do I. You see you get ISK for killing the mission rats as well. Maybe you weren't aware. Also the LP have value, as does the salvage, the loot, the minerals.

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i'm aware, but just because I can collect loots, salvage, refine... that in no way is related to the agent who hired me for a specific job. His value is what he rewards per mission... not what I acquire myself from doing the mission.

If you want to make it relevant as to how much that agent is really handing out... that's the only true form to show.

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Originally by: Stinky Mc****yPants

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Originally by: Ruze

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Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Your plan is greatly flawed.

A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.
B.) No one is gonna mission 23 hours a day.
C.) You can't build a titan in 14 hours, Therefore I don't believe that.

---

For a, you are correct.

For b, you are wrong. Many players, be they through macro's or maybe just plain persistance, mission for 23 hours a day straight.

For c, I think he meant the COST of building a titan. Let him make it clear, but I think that his intent was that you could pay the overarching cost of having one built every 14 hours. I'm sure he felt that this little fact was obvious, but I guess it's not.

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A Normal person isn't gonna mission 23 hours a day.

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What part of "at any one time" was difficult for you to understand?

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how can you run 175 clients on one pc?

how much ram does your computer have? i can only run 2 or 3 max at time

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Seriously, are you actually putting this forward as an argument?

OK in that case, all player sov systems are worth zero ISK, in which case even a -Q20 level 1 agent is worth infinitely more than the whole of player 0.0.

So do you want to produce any more laughable nit-picky points, or do you want to address the issue I have raised?

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No, I proved my point your idea is flawed. And quite frankly, I have no idea what a player sov system is doing in the argument, and how it relates to what an agent pays out.

you're off the path my friend. get back on track with me... here.

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Originally by: Slaver Hatastus

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Originally by: Malcanis

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[So do you want to produce any more laughable nit-picky points, or do you want to address the issue I have raised?

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wait...what IS your "issue"?

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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Originally by: Ruze

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The point he's bringing up is that profit made in hisec space, with no threat to you, is far higher than any player can make in losec or 0.0, just by averaging the income from level 4 missions.

At least how I see it.

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No, he's stretching to find reason to compare NPC play to 0.0 player based play. Compare the roids, the moons, the rats, all from one 0.0 system... and yes... it gets complicated.

So in other words... he's a noob looking to debate a pointless issue.

But hey, whatever... maybe an agent is just worth his quality to you? simple... move on and play your game.

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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Originally by: Farrqua

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And btw if you can't muster 25mil per hour running lvl4's you are doing it wrong.

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show me a lvl 4 agent that will reward you 25mil an hour? I'll be waiting at your sister's house to tell me.

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)

Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.

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Uhhhh... yeah. I run level 4s a couple of times a week. I have a fairly nicely set up Golem and know all the missions like the back of my hand. Don't come anywhere close to 25m an hour.

Now, if I was like some of the mission maniacs who post here who know every single angle about keeping missions open with multiple agents so that they respawn and farm Angel Extra over an over while boxing two accounts, yeah, I could probably make that much or more. I don't. I just play the game.

Where you logic is flawed bud is that in an alliance of 500 members in a region like fountain you could easily have 175 miners grinding out roids with their hulks and another 100 farming rat bounties and faction loots.

I do know from experience that 0.0 mining ABC ores will net you quite a bit more than level 4 missioning. Double, maybe even triple wouldn't be out of the question. Likewise spawn-chaining and faction spawn farming up in Venal. I've done both. Both are far more profitable than high-sec level 4s.

The sky is not falling. Things are pretty much as they should be.

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Originally by: Ghoest

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Each player can earn 25M an hour


wtf makes up these numbers?

Im sure that has happened. And maybe there are ever a few players that consistantly pull it off, noraml people probably average half that if they have high skill including social skills.

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Originally by: Atlas Oracle

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Originally by: Ruze

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Oi, trading is a completely different matter.

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oh?
lol

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Originally by: Concorduck

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now think about 175 ppl mission running that are in the same corp, using the same agent, and using a lvl 4 q20 (or even lvl3 q20, easily)...but in NPC 0.0

now, that's some issue we have here.

if you can make 25m/run in high sec missioning lvl 4 q20, imagine the reward that a single blockade in 0.0 (wich allows carriers, remember that) in term of isks, salvage materials, tags and LP (LP rewards from empire are different from NPC 0.0, where you can buy halo/slave/snake/whatever implant sets with LPs). not to get into account ppl with awesome social skills.

isn't that another issue?

so, let's remove agents

oh, wait...

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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Originally by: Malcanis

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It's a shame to see a nice ship like a golem wasted.

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Yeah, dunno what to tell you bud. I pretty much sleepwalk through any L4. Kill stuff as fast as Navy Torps will kill it. Salvage and loot. I probaby missioned for 4 hours last week and netted maybe 80 mill total. Part of the difference may be that I'm grinding standings for an alt at the same time, so I'm not turning anything down. *Shrugs*.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Malcanis

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This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.

Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)

Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.

175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.

That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.

1 titan every 14 hours.

A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.



For a



single



agent.

---

As all statistics, worth nothing when you manipulate the results to your ends.

1) "175 players Observed in Isinokka" Naturally you arent adding "at peak hours" as it will not suit your purposes. Average for the day? probably 100-110. Let's say 110.

2) "25 millions an hour as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum." naturally for players with high social skills and high skills in the combat skills. Again you are discounting the high number of players new to level 4 missions that will spend a lot of time and reduce the average. Let's again take a credible average of 20 millions.

3) "175x25x24". But the server is up 23 hours/day, not 24. And if you start a mission in the last hour you will not salvage it. But let's keep the 23 hours.

4) and all that without considering combats against ship where you have the wrong damage kind as they can't change it (not all people use raven, you know. Well probably not, you are Caldari).

So, a more credible 110x20x23=50,6 billions
Still high but less than half of your pumped up values.

But the most important part you are missing:

it require an average of 110 people, in the same system, for 23 hours day

It is not something that 1 person or 1 alliance is doing.

If you find that it is so wonderful and want a piece of the pie, bring your alliance there and start running missions like mad.

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Originally by: mishkof

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I think most people that compare resources of 0.0/lo-sec and empire really do not take into account moons.

What is a dysp moon up to these days? 4-5 bil a month? 100 mil on fuel, 8-10 man hours a month for maintenance, and a one time cost of 1.5-8 bil(pimped faction ?) for the tower and it starts to make senss to me anyway.

I really dont care if a farming carebear makes 15-25 mil an hour making his eyes bleed.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Your plan is greatly flawed.

A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.

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A.) That changes the figure by less than 4%

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24/23=0.04347, i.e. more than 4%.

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Originally by: mishkof

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Cool beans. Point me to the region that has a dysprosium moon available for everyone who wants one, without fighting for it, and with no chance of losing the profits to gankers on the way to empire.

IIRC, the total number of dyspro moons is considerable less than the number of players that the single agent is able to serve.

For the lucky single individual player who owns outright a dyspro moon, sure, he's better off than a mission runner. For the other 99.998% of the eve population, that's not really relevant though.

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My point is that that kind of money is the reason people fight, because 0.0/losec is the only place you can get that kind of cash.

If your alliance has enough of them you can subsidize caps to protect them.

There is a reason the 0.0 alliances are so strong and it is difficult to unseat them from their resources...because they have the resources in the first place...

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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Originally by: Granmethedon III

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You're missing the point; 175 miners will show up as a damn big "check me out" blob soon enough.

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Well, little risk of that anyhow. Most alliances have trouble scaring up 75 people to mine, much less 175.

Here's the deal. There's a difference between profit, and profit potential. Yep, you have lots of folks lining up to do L4s in Empire. It's what they want to do.

They could be earning more (A Lot More) running plexes or chaining rat spawns or mining ABCs in 0.0, and, given the current state of 0.0, probably just as safely if they had any smarts about them at all. They don't want to. Why? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

There are no alliance politics, back-biting, and BS in Empire.

There is no losing your 1B ship without even being able to activate a module in empire.

Nobody but you is getting rich from your efforts in Empire, and nobody will walk off with the crap that you earned either.

You're your own boss in Empire.

Oddly enough, some of us find that attractive, and we'll earn less per hour played for the privledge. Nerfing empire isn't going to make 0.0 more attractive. It might make EvE less so, though.

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Originally by: Granmethedon III

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Edited by: Granmethedon III on 07/08/2008 22:50:44

Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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Originally by: Granmethedon III

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You're missing the point; 175 miners will show up as a damn big "check me out" blob soon enough.

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Well, little risk of that anyhow. Most alliances have trouble scaring up 75 people to mine, much less 175.

Here's the deal. There's a difference between profit, and profit potential. Yep, you have lots of folks lining up to do L4s in Empire. It's what they want to do.

They could be earning more (A Lot More) running plexes or chaining rat spawns or mining ABCs in 0.0, and, given the current state of 0.0, probably just as safely if they had any smarts about them at all. They don't want to. Why? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

There are no alliance politics, back-biting, and BS in Empire.

There is no losing your 1B ship without even being able to activate a module in empire.

Nobody but you is getting rich from your efforts in Empire, and nobody will walk off with the crap that you earned either.

You're your own boss in Empire.

Oddly enough, some of us find that attractive, and we'll earn less per hour played for the privledge. Nerfing empire isn't going to make 0.0 more attractive. It might make EvE less so, though.

---

Seriously, you have a very misguided interpretation of what you can earn, as an individual, in 0.0.

You're also missing out on the fact that CCP, by calling 0.0 the "eng game", wants their players to go there. No shit.

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Originally by: Graalem

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Originally by: Malcanis

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This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.

Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)

Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.

175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.

That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.

1 titan every 14 hours.

A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.



For a



single



agent.

---

25m an hour? i guess you never did any lvl 4 missions.... Damn i wish i got 25mil maybe at WC but 1hr? lol keep dreaming fool.

you play eve 24hrs a day? damn thought it was 23......

Before crying try out some lv4s and do some calculations...

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Originally by: mishkof

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Originally by: Malcanis

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And my point is that 0.0 alliances are fighting for a resource that's trivial compared to the value found in high-sec.

Whether that's right or wrong is for you to decide, but if you think it's right, then I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

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It isnt trivial. you are crazy if you think that. Look at how many prom and dysp moons are in delve alone. The earnings per man hour spent is so much higher it isnt even funny.

It is all a zero sum game. If you make 25 mil an hour in empire with no risk, and you make 60 mil in 0.0 an hour, but you lose 50% of that protecting it(lol KOS anyone), you are still making 5 mil more an hour then the empire dweller...

That is a more reaslistic way to look at the balance then your OP IMO.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Granmethedon III

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Originally by: Concorduck

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now think about 175 ppl mission running that are in the same corp, using the same agent, and using a lvl 4 q20 (or even lvl3 q20, easily)...but in NPC 0.0

now, that's some issue we have here.

if you can make 25m/run in high sec missioning lvl 4 q20, imagine the reward that a single blockade in 0.0 (wich allows carriers, remember that) in term of isks, salvage materials, tags and LP (LP rewards from empire are different from NPC 0.0, where you can buy halo/slave/snake/whatever implant sets with LPs). not to get into account ppl with awesome social skills.

isn't that another issue?

so, let's remove agents

oh, wait...

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Let me station camp empire level 4 sites, and sure, I see your point.

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Station camp a system with 175 people running missions.

I would like to salvage what is left of your ship.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Serra Hershey

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Your plan is greatly flawed.

A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.

---

A.) That changes the figure by less than 4%

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24/23=0.04347, i.e. more than 4%.

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Thank you for posting precisely how insignificant your point was.

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You base your whole post on math, but then when it is pointed that your math is wrong, it is "insignificant".

Very weak, Malc.

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Originally by: Arrs Grazznic

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Edited by: Arrs Grazznic on 07/08/2008 23:16:49

I read this thread. All of it. I laughed all the way.

But to the OP's original point... 175 people in a mission hub can make 105b per day.

So... theoretically... I recall that with maxed out mining skills it is just about possible to make 100m per hour mining. following on from this, if you mined for 24 hours you could make 2.4b. Multiply this by 175 people mining you make over 400 billion isk per day.

I know, I know, limited resources, etc., but if you're going to throw random figures around so can anyone else.

TBH, I'm still not really sure what the OP is whining about. Are you saying that an alliance running missions 24/7 in high-sec can make more cash than an alliance holding swathes of 0.0? If so, shouldn't you have a word with RA and let them in on the secret?

Drunk and tired o7
Arrs

Edit: spelling. Damn fingers. And Beer. Bad combo.

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Originally by: Somealt Ofmine

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Originally by: hedfunk

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Having shamefully participated in 0.0 mining, with 4hulks, 3 haulers, and a gang alt giving some nice mining bonuses, we got 60m/hr. Between 5 guys. That's not including the hauling it back down to empire. And the risk of getting blown to pieces.

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Uh... stop mining the hemo? A maxed out hulk mining ABCs can do 80m/hr. without breaking a sweat. I know prices have changed some since I was out there, but not THAT much.

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Originally by: Sylper Illysten

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I love how every person who wants to force mission runner to be their unwilling targets brings up the, well agent level (x) peays ammount (y) and if you miultiply that by number of players in system (z) and the hours in the day then every mission runner is making (total) because they're all flying pimped out ships and speed running missions and, and, and....

Here's a clue, not all mission runners can afford faction fits, not all mission runners play 23/7, not all mission runners have billions of isk.

all these nerf misisons/move missions to low sec whines boil down to people who want easy targets in low sec. Risk free gankers, the true care bears of EVE.

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Originally by: mishkof

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: mishkof

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I have made 60 mil an hour ratting in OSHT. look it up on the map, in one of the busiest corridors in eve. Sorry that you suck at cloaking, and hitting f1,f2,f3.

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Can you do that together with 175 other people in system doing the same? Or just 50? Or just 10, for that matter? If not, thank you for proving the OP's point.

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Yes and there is an unlimited number of agents that you can make 25 mil an hour with in empire amirght?

Because I am sure if there was there would be 175 people in one system doing them.

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Originally by: Sylper Illysten

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Originally by: Malcanis

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This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.

Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)

Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.

175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.

That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.

1 titan every 14 hours.

A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.



For a



single



agent.

---

I think your assumptions are fairly visible, I run missions in the limited play time I have and never have I approached the mythical 25 million isk an hour average you expose.

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Originally by: Arrs Grazznic

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Originally by: Malcanis

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400B/day - until the ore runs out.

How long would it take those 175 maxed out hulk miners (who I assume are getting their hauling done for free..?) to exhaust the best ore?

Rather less than a day, I'm guessing.

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Yes! Exactly! The same as mission runners or T2 BPO holders or market traders... These figures are all theoretical and not sustainable.

My rhetorical question remains: if it is more profitable for an alliance to run missions in high sec than hold 0.0 space, why are they not doing so?

Or, to go all CAOD for a minute, is this just ground work for when eXceed. fail cascade you can claim high sec is better? oj

Cheers,
Arrs

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 23:08:36

Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You base your whole post on math, but then when it is pointed that your math is wrong, it is "insignificant".

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Do you realize that the amount is still, after the 4.xxx% correction you made, stupidly high compared to the ISK printing ability of any 0.0 resource?

Or are you playing the "Oh, hai, your math is wrong, I don't make 100% more ISK then you but only 96%, so you have no pont to stand on." card? It's not very much of a counter-argument, you know.

Naturally, when challenged to find a 0.0 system which can support anywhere remotely close to the ISK printing possibilities of a single L4 high-sec agent, the best way to reply is to nitpick on minor points. Because you damn well know it's totally broken.

---

There are several point, but the most importants:

Malcais count is based on 110 persons farming 1 resource.

Put 110 persons strip mining in adjacent systems (yes, the belts in 1 system will not support them) and even with the time needed to haul the minerals to the station or pos for refining, you will get the same return for hour or even more. Even more as the miners will be killing fat rats while mining.

The point is that you will not get 110 players farming like that in 0.0 as they are there mostly for the PvP.

Then there is the not little point that the 110 average players in one of the busiest high sec systems aren't working for the same alliance. The resources aren't shared, the resources don't pile up to build titans and the resources are based on the important fact that there will be those numbers of people in that kind of system.

0.0 resources need to be scaled up in numbers so you can have 110 players in a system farming some resource? Maybe, but then the "frontier" area lose his meaning. it would be Manhattan, not the gold rush in Alaska.

Oh, BTW, as already pointed out, for NPC 0.0 the isk printing ability is even more. Yes, Malc has said that is not pertinent to the discussion. As that kind of data would weaken his arguments is is very careful saying they aren't important.

Last but not least, those resources are available to you and Malc too. No way to negate them to you. So if they are so good and interesting, why aren't you farming them with your whole alliance?

It is not what you like to do? But it will net you a Titan every day, no alliance can produce that.

You can't block other people from doing that so it is not fun?

Or you want all EVE to be limited to 5 players for system each day as that will make the earning potential of ratting much more than what a high sec agent will give out?

Malc whole argument is flawed from the start.

The comparison is between:

Unlimited resource created for a large number of players indifferent organizations VS limited resourced created to be the sole property of a single organization with a limited number of players

So what is the meaning of comparing the two?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Ruze

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Lumping us all into one category with the worst players in EvE as a means of trivilising or disarming the argument won't work. The profit for the average person in high-sec, versus the average person in low-sec, is just too high, especially considering when you add losses and risk into that equation.

---

But it is exactly what you and Malc do.

All high sec players are in faction fitted CNR
All high sec players run mission as the only thing they do
All high sec players run mission 12 hours a day, farming the best missions and never doing the others

So why people that disagree with you cand make the same kind of generalizations?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Ruze

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Meanwhile, as the op has PROVEN, hisec mission running is a instantly renewable, reliable, and open resource to nearly all players, and includes little room for losing a ship and high profit-per-hour.

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The OP has demonstrated that 175 players, doing the same thing, 23 hours day, earn a lot of isk. Full stop. Nothing more.

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Originally by: Arrs Grazznic

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Perhaps you arent aware, but missions don't run out. The agent can provide an unlimited number of them, 23 hours per day. The only limit is in fact the number of players the node can support.

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Yes, I'm very aware that missions do not run out, but in response please point me to an alliance that strips all the belts in all their systems on a daily basis. It doesn't happen. Neither does 175 characters running (best paying) L4 missions 23/7. Yes, the potential to earn vast sums is present in both scenarios, but, again, these figures are theoretical.

I still can't see what point you are trying to make.

Originally by: Malcanis

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As for the remark about eXceed, I can't answer you. I've only been in that alliance for 2 days so I'm not really in a position to tell you whether we're about to failcascade or not.

Still, if we do, it'll give me the chance to grind up the ISK for the Thanatos and Moros I'll want for the capital alts I'm training. Should take about 2-3 weeks going on past experience, depending on how fancy a fit I want.

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Um, humour bypass detected? It was meant to be a joke to break the rabid comments in the thread, but I guess you're taking all this a bit too seriously.

Cheers,
Arrs

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