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What is a hi-sec level 4 agent worth

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Author	Topic
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.08 00:38:00 - [1] Originally by: Hieronimus Rex I don't get it. What's the point of this thread? For the OP to demonstrate his ability to multiply numbers? Read the second post. He's just pointing out that the risk vs reward for level 4 missions in highsec is imbalanced, especially compared to the risk vs reward for 0.0. Really, risk is a huge factor here. If you think that 0.0 is less dangerous than using a CNR in a level 4 mission, you need a reality check. If you sit in highsec and mission all day, you're probably going to ignore that part.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.08 04:06:00 - [2] Originally by: Amateratsu Edited by: Amateratsu on 08/08/2008 04:02:47 Name me 1 level 4 mission that pays out 25m per hour? The average level 4 mission pays between 5 - 10m in reward and bountys. You cannot include loot, salvage, lp as they do not inject new isk into the game, the isk comes from other players trading in those resources. So where the hell are all you pvp's getting this 25m + per hoyr from? Not even the Extravaganza's pay much above 10 - 15m... Unless your running them in a group or pimped out officer fitted faction ship that can turn over 3 - 4 level 4s an hour.... Your figure of 25+m an hour is highly over exageratted So, loot, salvage, and lp are worth nothing? Yes, you can include them. He, nor anyone else in this thread has mentioned new isk being injected into the economy. The injection of isk does not mean anything, the fact is that you still get all the isk from the loot, salvage, and lp in the end. You just blew him away on a totally irrelevant point.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.08 18:50:00 - [3] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Somealt Ofmine I'm not sure how, but you've managed to partly or completely isinterpret everything I posted. You're either very new to these forums and haven't been following the discussions, or else a very good troll. To pick the most outstanding example; I'm not talking about making "trash item" mission loot unrefinable. I'm talking about removing it altogether. Well, I said it wasn't clear to me which you meant. As I said, if you remove it altogether you are removing a substantial materials "faucet" from the game. Prices will rise. The implied assumption is that people will mine more to compensate. If they don't, CCP would just have to introduce some other materials "faucet", most likely by boosting mining yields or introducing more powerful mining equipment. Then, instead of people griping about L4 mission runners getting rich, they'd gripe about miners getting rich. I don't smell any "win" coming off of that scenario. First, you are new to these forums. This has been discussed time and time again, and CCP has pitched in, with saying that they may do this in the future. Second, you are saying that if mining becomes the main way to get minerals (which, by design, it should) then people will not mine for those minerals. Apparently, trit prices will reach over a million isk a unit, and people will still refuse to mine. I'm sorry, but I don't see any logic in that scenario. Mining SHOULD be the main, best, and almost only way of getting minerals (With a few other secondary ways on the side, like alloys). Also, people would mine to fill the gap. If mining becomes even remotely as profitable as mission running, people will do it. I don't see why you should get something you are not devoted to getting (minerals) while you are doing something that is not the normal way of getting it (mining). Regardless, there are more reasons that I'm too lazy to post. Go look at the forums, then come back after you've read some other topics on the subject.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.08 18:56:00 - [4] Originally by: Mika Meroko I still couldnt break the 10 mill (on average) an hour limit.. from empire level 4s.... unless I get some REALLY REALLY good missions... which is random.... random is bad for calculaing this okay? but yeah, I, and alot of runners I know, are consistently, around 10 mill from bounty and reward....(and no, before you add in loot and salvage = more time, = LOWER the isk per hour limit unless you have alt accounts that loot/salvage as you go....and yes, my other accounts are in 0.0....) so yeah, OP... I would like to see how he does it... =P and no, I am already using a T2 fitted CNR with every skill possible trained =P You must be an awful missioner, if you can't even break 10 mil an hour. I have not seen anyone else in this thread post a figure so low, not even close.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.09 00:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine Originally by: Morcam I don't see why you should get something you are not devoted to getting (minerals) while you are doing something that is not the normal way of getting it (mining). I understand that you don't understand. First off, some folks who like to run missions hate to mine. There is no guarantee, or even liklihood that one would offset the other if loot reprocessing were removed. The net effect would likely be inflationary unless the rate at which materials leave the game (PvP, mostly) slowed down. Think about it for a minute. It's not that hard. Second, the ability to reprocess things provides an important economic check-and-balance. If the price of something gets gets significantly under its it's "melt" value (it has been over-produced relative to demand for it), you buy it and convert it to mins. This has an important balancing effect on the economy and a check against irrational price competition. <Snip for char limit> If there was something structurally and fundamentally flawed or broken with the eve economy, such as runaway inflation, excessive cartelling and manipulation, deflation, or anything of the kind I'd say yeah, something is busted and needs fixing. Bottom line, we don't have those kinds of problems in Eve. You can argue this from the point of view of "fairness" or "realism" or it impacting your game-play somehow, but there isn't anything wrong with the economics. There are already ways to get bigger rewards in the game for taking bigger risks. If the folks running level 4s right now were inclined, they'd be out there gunning for them, instead of running level 4s. They aren't. They are risk-averse. Moving level 4s out of high-sec isn't going to magically make them risk-takers. We are talking about play-money afterall. It's not like they're ACTUALLY getting rich here, and it's not like they're going to be able to achieve much in game without taking any risks beyond driving around in a pimped out ship that they never PvP in anyhow. So, what's the BFD?. There isn't anything broken here that needs fixing. As far as I can tell, this thread is just part of the knee-jerk reaction to making suicide ganks harder. That has nothing to do with the economics of the game, and just about everything to do with people in empire not being gank-targets. So, people don't like to mine, so you shouldn't have to do it to get minerals? You don't think that's biased? Yes, the market will inflate breifly, before people realize that mining is, suddenly, actually a reasonably profitable profession. Not to mention easier than anything else in the game (Highsec mining, at least). Once again, you are being "obtuse" in saying that ALL mission runners would hate to mine. For your second point, reread my post. Reading comprehension FTW. And yes, the market IS broken. If you think that T1 production being unprofitable 90% of the time isn't broken, please leave now. And yes, there are ways to get more isk than missioning, sure. However, the amounts of isk that you get in 0.0 and especially lowsec are not even close in the risk/reward catagory to level 4 missions. THAT is the complaint that many of the people have here. Quite simply, even 15 million an hour with absoultely NO risk is messed up. People have pointed out that you can make more than that. I can, however, see the point (I'm not sure if you were trying to point it out) that many of the mission runners don't use their isk very effectively. I still don't think that they should have so much isk, since they will probably want to pvp in the future, but I CAN see that they don't have that much to spend the isk on that is related to mission running, once they have their faction fitted CNR. Also, I don't even care about the suicide gank nerf, but nice try.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.09 01:51:00 - [6] Edited by: Morcam on 09/08/2008 01:54:09 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine And shortly after people realize that it got more profitable, more people will realize that they don't like how profitable it is, and we'll have a thread titled "The value of a High-Sec Veldspar System". Round and round we go. Didn't say all mission runners wouldn't mine. Said that many of them would find it boring and probably wouldn't do it just for the isk. Probably why the devs, in their wisdom, put a PvE oriented activity in the game where you can shoot at stuff and generate mats. At any rate, if you remove it, it will have an effect that isn't entirely forseeable, whereas if you leave it alone you'll have what you see now, an economy happily chugging along. T-1 production is usually unprofitable because new-ish producers price their T-1 products as if the minerals that they mined or looted were "free", or they build things without having done any research into whether there is actually some demand for those things or whether they are profitable to produce. CCP can't fix that through game mechanics, and shouldn't try. I'm curious though, how is it that you think making mins more expensive will fix it? The market does have a "safety valve" though. If things get too cheap traders will start snapping them up and melting them for the mins. The market is self-balancing like that. You were arguing for taking that safety valve away. Ok, why, exactly, is it messed up? Is it messed up because these high-sec carebears are in danger of "winning eve" with their ill-gotten fortunes without the threat of PvP holding them back? Is it messed up because they gots a better ship than you and it cheezes you off? Why? Exactly bud. Doesn't really matter how much isk they pile up, if they're never going to get out and experience the PvP, there's only so far they're going to go in game. If they do decide they want to PvP in the future, they'll suck, and get a lot of their ships blown up, and probably be back where they started until they learn how. Ok, what, exactly, are you caring about? How are these mission grinders impinging on your game? I'll go in order. Yes, the amount of minerals that are produced by L4 missions are not enormous. However, it IS large enough to produce an impact on the highsec market, particularly the high-end section of it. Also, removing T1 loot would not make L4's less profitable than mining. It would move the market towards a bit more pricey minerals, but not extremely so. It would make the mining profession more profitable, sure, but not enough that anyone would have a reason to whine about it. As long as they're not a troll. T1 production is messed up because there are many T1 products you can get for cheaper than they cost to produce, sure. However, that's not because of new players underpricing their modules. Regardless, I'm not going to argue on this topic. If you want to whine about that, go to THIS thread. Also, nice selective quote to save your E-peen. I never said that, you did. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. On the third part, I'm in danger of going offtrack of the point of this topic. To sum up my thoughts on the topic... It can't be argued that regardless of the specific amount, a LOT of isk comes from L4 missions. For the amount of risk the users take, I think that the amount that comes out is too much. EvE SHOULD be a dangerous game, and it is by design. Risk versus reward should be a part of the game. However, It seems to me that if you theoretically put EvE on a factor of risk/reward, you'll find that L4 missions don't fit. 1/10,000,000 2/20,000,000 10/100,000,000 Missions are more like 0/15,000,000 I am fine with the reward, I just don't like the risk. So, after that rant... why do I care? I just said it. They don't fit in. (Oh, and I also agree with the infinite resource bit too.)
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.09 17:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Somealt Ofmine That's wise of you, because you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. I don't mean that as a slight, but you're clearly ignorant of how eve's market works. Ok, cool, so at the end of the day, your answer comes all the way back to "I don't like it". You don't want anyone in eve to make good money while not risking gettting shot at. Hate to break it to you bud, but I make far more building stuff and in the market than I do running L4 missions. Should we nerf empire manufacturing and trading too? I mean, afterall, I don't even have to undock to make money trading. Barely even have to undock to make money building. Where does that fall on the Morcam approved risk/reward scale? Your argument, taken to its logical conclusion, leads all the way back to basically getting rid of Empire altogether, and making it a noob "starter island" like other games have that nobody stays in past their first couple of weeks in the game. You have an interesting game in mind there, but that game isn't Eve. There isn't any point arguing this with you any further. I think we've pretty much hashed it out. First off, the selective quoting here gets even better. Now you select quoted me to make it seem like I'm saying the exact opposite of what I am saying. Fail. If you can't respond to the whole post, don't respond at all. Since I'm going to answer your entire post, and not just part of it... And yes, I don't want anyone to make good isk while not being shot at. However, making money on the market is entirely different from missions. Making money on the market relies on other people being, in a sense, stupid. Other people have to sell lower, and you have to buy your items lower. As a trader, none of your isk comes from NPC's, it all comes from other players. The same with building stuff, unless you mine your own minerals. You get the minerals from other players, manufacture them, then sell them to other players. The other point I made about the mission runners having nothing to spend their isk on is also much higher when it comes to a trader. He can't fly ships, even though he DOES have the isk. Highsec IS a "newbie island" but it is a newbie island that no one apparently wants to leave. Why not? It gives more than enough isk to buy everything you need. And I laughed at the part of "taken to its logical conclusion." What convoluted logic are you using there? And I want to play the EvE that the developers wanted to play, not the one the carebears want. Regardless, since you don't respond to my posts, there is not a point in carrying this further. Thanks for the laughs, though.

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