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Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
    |
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:34:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Malcanis
It's a shame to see a nice ship like a golem wasted.
Yeah, dunno what to tell you bud. I pretty much sleepwalk through any L4. Kill stuff as fast as Navy Torps will kill it. Salvage and loot. I probaby missioned for 4 hours last week and netted maybe 80 mill total. Part of the difference may be that I'm grinding standings for an alt at the same time, so I'm not turning anything down. *Shrugs*.
Man, I don't know what you're doing wrong. What kind of missions? Are your missile support skills maxed out? 3xCN BCS? Are you being lazy and using the same kind of ammo/drones?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:34:00 -
[62]
I think most people that compare resources of 0.0/lo-sec and empire really do not take into account moons.
What is a dysp moon up to these days? 4-5 bil a month? 100 mil on fuel, 8-10 man hours a month for maintenance, and a one time cost of 1.5-8 bil(pimped faction ?) for the tower and it starts to make senss to me anyway.
I really dont care if a farming carebear makes 15-25 mil an hour making his eyes bleed.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:35:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Malcanis
This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.
Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)
Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.
175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.
That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.
1 titan every 14 hours.
A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.
For a
single
agent.
As all statistics, worth nothing when you manipulate the results to your ends.
1) "175 players Observed in Isinokka" Naturally you arent adding "at peak hours" as it will not suit your purposes. Average for the day? probably 100-110. Let's say 110.
2) "25 millions an hour as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum." naturally for players with high social skills and high skills in the combat skills. Again you are discounting the high number of players new to level 4 missions that will spend a lot of time and reduce the average. Let's again take a credible average of 20 millions.
3) "175x25x24". But the server is up 23 hours/day, not 24. And if you start a mission in the last hour you will not salvage it. But let's keep the 23 hours.
4) and all that without considering combats against ship where you have the wrong damage kind as they can't change it (not all people use raven, you know. Well probably not, you are Caldari).
So, a more credible 110x20x23=50,6 billions
Still high but less than half of your pumped up values.
But the most important part you are missing:
it require an average of 110 people, in the same system, for 23 hours day
It is not something that 1 person or 1 alliance is doing.
If you find that it is so wonderful and want a piece of the pie, bring your alliance there and start running missions like mad.
That's a devastating rebuttal to a point I didn't make. Here's your cookie.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:40:00 -
[64]
Originally by: mishkof
I think most people that compare resources of 0.0/lo-sec and empire really do not take into account moons.
What is a dysp moon up to these days? 4-5 bil a month? 100 mil on fuel, 8-10 man hours a month for maintenance, and a one time cost of 1.5-8 bil(pimped faction ?) for the tower and it starts to make senss to me anyway.
I really dont care if a farming carebear makes 15-25 mil an hour making his eyes bleed.
Cool beans. Point me to the region that has a dysprosium moon available for everyone who wants one, without fighting for it, and with no chance of losing the profits to gankers on the way to empire.
IIRC, the total number of dyspro moons is considerable less than the number of players that the single agent is able to serve.
For the lucky single individual player who owns outright a dyspro moon, sure, he's better off than a mission runner. For the other 99.998% of the eve population, that's not really relevant though.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:41:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Serra Hershey
Your plan is greatly flawed.
A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.
A.) That changes the figure by less than 4%
24/23=0.04347, i.e. more than 4%.
Thank you for posting precisely how insignificant your point was.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:44:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Malcanis
Cool beans. Point me to the region that has a dysprosium moon available for everyone who wants one, without fighting for it, and with no chance of losing the profits to gankers on the way to empire.
IIRC, the total number of dyspro moons is considerable less than the number of players that the single agent is able to serve.
For the lucky single individual player who owns outright a dyspro moon, sure, he's better off than a mission runner. For the other 99.998% of the eve population, that's not really relevant though.
My point is that that kind of money is the reason people fight, because 0.0/losec is the only place you can get that kind of cash.
If your alliance has enough of them you can subsidize caps to protect them.
There is a reason the 0.0 alliances are so strong and it is difficult to unseat them from their resources...because they have the resources in the first place...
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Somealt Ofmine
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:46:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Granmethedon III
You're missing the point; 175 miners will show up as a damn big "check me out" blob soon enough.
Well, little risk of that anyhow. Most alliances have trouble scaring up 75 people to mine, much less 175.
Here's the deal. There's a difference between profit, and profit potential. Yep, you have lots of folks lining up to do L4s in Empire. It's what they want to do.
They could be earning more (A Lot More) running plexes or chaining rat spawns or mining ABCs in 0.0, and, given the current state of 0.0, probably just as safely if they had any smarts about them at all. They don't want to. Why? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.
There are no alliance politics, back-biting, and BS in Empire.
There is no losing your 1B ship without even being able to activate a module in empire.
Nobody but you is getting rich from your efforts in Empire, and nobody will walk off with the crap that you earned either.
You're your own boss in Empire.
Oddly enough, some of us find that attractive, and we'll earn less per hour played for the privledge. Nerfing empire isn't going to make 0.0 more attractive. It might make EvE less so, though.
|
hedfunk
Caldari
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:47:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Granmethedon III
LOL. I double dare you to take 175 miners out in fountain.
Haven't been there in a long time bud. No idea what it's like now. I was just using an example of a region with some nice ore. Substitute big-power-block-napathon-region of your choice, but you needn't bother telling me it's not possible. I've mined Ark for days in a region that was supposed to be a "war zone" and wasn't bothered by a soul. I probably run a bigger risk taking a Golem out in Motsu with a 1.5B fit. Well, until the fall, I will, anyway. 
Motsu has a high security rating, it would take a substantial amount of ravens to take your Golem, for only 1.5bill, it aint worth it. I think you know that you're perfectly safe. And come Autumn, you can sit afk in your little Golem almost immune to any sort of danger.
 |
Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:48:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Farrqua
And btw if you can't muster 25mil per hour running lvl4's you are doing it wrong.
show me a lvl 4 agent that will reward you 25mil an hour? I'll be waiting at your sister's house to tell me.
LOL. You are truly clueless. I can knock down between 25 and 30 an hour flying a simple little Raven and cracking the "Easter eggs" now and then. If you can't figure it out like the rest of us ....well then your just fu..uc..ked.
 |
Granmethedon III
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:49:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Granmethedon III on 07/08/2008 22:50:44
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Granmethedon III
You're missing the point; 175 miners will show up as a damn big "check me out" blob soon enough.
Well, little risk of that anyhow. Most alliances have trouble scaring up 75 people to mine, much less 175.
Here's the deal. There's a difference between profit, and profit potential. Yep, you have lots of folks lining up to do L4s in Empire. It's what they want to do.
They could be earning more (A Lot More) running plexes or chaining rat spawns or mining ABCs in 0.0, and, given the current state of 0.0, probably just as safely if they had any smarts about them at all. They don't want to. Why? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.
There are no alliance politics, back-biting, and BS in Empire.
There is no losing your 1B ship without even being able to activate a module in empire.
Nobody but you is getting rich from your efforts in Empire, and nobody will walk off with the crap that you earned either.
You're your own boss in Empire.
Oddly enough, some of us find that attractive, and we'll earn less per hour played for the privledge. Nerfing empire isn't going to make 0.0 more attractive. It might make EvE less so, though.
Seriously, you have a very misguided interpretation of what you can earn, as an individual, in 0.0.
You're also missing out on the fact that CCP, by calling 0.0 the "eng game", wants their players to go there. No shit.
|
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:49:00 -
[71]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Malcanis
Cool beans. Point me to the region that has a dysprosium moon available for everyone who wants one, without fighting for it, and with no chance of losing the profits to gankers on the way to empire.
IIRC, the total number of dyspro moons is considerable less than the number of players that the single agent is able to serve.
For the lucky single individual player who owns outright a dyspro moon, sure, he's better off than a mission runner. For the other 99.998% of the eve population, that's not really relevant though.
My point is that that kind of money is the reason people fight, because 0.0/losec is the only place you can get that kind of cash.
If your alliance has enough of them you can subsidize caps to protect them.
There is a reason the 0.0 alliances are so strong and it is difficult to unseat them from their resources...because they have the resources in the first place...
And my point is that 0.0 alliances are fighting for a resource that's trivial compared to the value found in high-sec.
Whether that's right or wrong is for you to decide, but if you think it's right, then I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:51:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Granmethedon III
You're missing the point; 175 miners will show up as a damn big "check me out" blob soon enough.
Well, little risk of that anyhow. Most alliances have trouble scaring up 75 people to mine, much less 175.
Here's the deal. There's a difference between profit, and profit potential. Yep, you have lots of folks lining up to do L4s in Empire. It's what they want to do.
They could be earning more (A Lot More) running plexes or chaining rat spawns or mining ABCs in 0.0, and, given the current state of 0.0, probably just as safely if they had any smarts about them at all. They don't want to. Why? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.
There are no alliance politics, back-biting, and BS in Empire.
There is no losing your 1B ship without even being able to activate a module in empire.
Nobody but you is getting rich from your efforts in Empire, and nobody will walk off with the crap that you earned either.
You're your own boss in Empire.
Oddly enough, some of us find that attractive, and we'll earn less per hour played for the privledge. Nerfing empire isn't going to make 0.0 more attractive. It might make EvE less so, though.
Here's a question: if you have zero interest in 0.0, then why would it matter to you if you made relatively much less than 0.0 players?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Graalem
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:51:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Malcanis
This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.
Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)
Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.
175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.
That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.
1 titan every 14 hours.
A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.
For a
single
agent.
25m an hour? i guess you never did any lvl 4 missions.... Damn i wish i got 25mil maybe at WC but 1hr? lol keep dreaming fool.
you play eve 24hrs a day? damn thought it was 23......
Before crying try out some lv4s and do some calculations... |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:52:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Granmethedon III
Edited by: Granmethedon III on 07/08/2008 22:50:44
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Granmethedon III
You're missing the point; 175 miners will show up as a damn big "check me out" blob soon enough.
Well, little risk of that anyhow. Most alliances have trouble scaring up 75 people to mine, much less 175.
Here's the deal. There's a difference between profit, and profit potential. Yep, you have lots of folks lining up to do L4s in Empire. It's what they want to do.
They could be earning more (A Lot More) running plexes or chaining rat spawns or mining ABCs in 0.0, and, given the current state of 0.0, probably just as safely if they had any smarts about them at all. They don't want to. Why? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.
There are no alliance politics, back-biting, and BS in Empire.
There is no losing your 1B ship without even being able to activate a module in empire.
Nobody but you is getting rich from your efforts in Empire, and nobody will walk off with the crap that you earned either.
You're your own boss in Empire.
Oddly enough, some of us find that attractive, and we'll earn less per hour played for the privledge. Nerfing empire isn't going to make 0.0 more attractive. It might make EvE less so, though.
Seriously, you have a very misguided interpretation of what you can earn, as an individual, in 0.0.
You're also missing out on the fact that CCP, by calling 0.0 the "eng game", wants their players to go there. No shit.
All 0.0 systems have 300 belts, each with triple 1.85M spawns.
true story!
(I read it on the forums)
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:53:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Malcanis
And my point is that 0.0 alliances are fighting for a resource that's trivial compared to the value found in high-sec.
Whether that's right or wrong is for you to decide, but if you think it's right, then I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
It isnt trivial. you are crazy if you think that. Look at how many prom and dysp moons are in delve alone. The earnings per man hour spent is so much higher it isnt even funny.
It is all a zero sum game. If you make 25 mil an hour in empire with no risk, and you make 60 mil in 0.0 an hour, but you lose 50% of that protecting it(lol KOS anyone), you are still making 5 mil more an hour then the empire dweller...
That is a more reaslistic way to look at the balance then your OP IMO.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:55:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
The OP didn't post an idea, he just posted some facts, that simply a single high sec system with a q20 level 4 agents gives out vastly more rewards than the best 0.0 sec system.
CCP has said that players are supposed to be ENCOURAGED, not FORCED to go to 0.0. But in light of recent and future changes and current level 4 missions, players are not encouraged to go to 0.0. This is a problem that requires fixing a LONG, LONG time ago. It is one of the most requested features and I see no reason why risk vs reward which is one of the founding princples of EVE is constantly ignored.
1) he posted some manipulated fact;
2) l4 q20 agents don't exist in high sec. I have explained it to you several times. Try to remember it.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
|
hedfunk
Caldari
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:56:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Graalem
25m an hour? i guess you never did any lvl 4 missions.... Damn i wish i got 25mil maybe at WC but 1hr? lol keep dreaming fool.
you play eve 24hrs a day? damn thought it was 23......
Before crying try out some lv4s and do some calculations...
You fail pretty badly. As some one said before, if you aren't getting at least 25m/hr, you're doing it very, very wrong. Read the other posts, you ****ing tit.
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:56:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Graalem
Originally by: Malcanis
This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.
Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)
Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.
175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.
That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.
1 titan every 14 hours.
A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.
For a
single
agent.
25m an hour? i guess you never did any lvl 4 missions.... Damn i wish i got 25mil maybe at WC but 1hr? lol keep dreaming fool.
you play eve 24hrs a day? damn thought it was 23......
Before crying try out some lv4s and do some calculations...
It's no secret that I make my ISK doing level 4s, and have done so for over a year.
I have in the past made over 300M ISK in a single day, not counting LP, salvage, loot or implants. That was an exceptional day, I grant you - I spent my whole saturday missioning because I wanted to get that CNR before I went back to 0.0 - but that's still hugely more than I've ever made in 0.0 in a day.
Of course, my 0.0 earnings reflect the fact that I'll x up to defend space.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Granmethedon III
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:57:00 -
[79]
I think this thread is proving that mission runners really do suck. Jesus, why are you all ridiculing the idea of 25 mill an hour? It's ****ing peanuts from a lvl4!
|
Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:58:00 -
[80]
I think it's pretty important to note that the key factor that makes the OP's argument work is also the key factor in arguing against it. That is, that 'agents are infinitely scalable' (or at least limited only by players' tolerance to lag). What this means is that the 'resource value' of the agent is not consumed, and is limited only by the number of players choosing to exploit it. But at the same time, access to that resource is unlimited, as well. This is a key difference between agents as a resource in empire space vs. nullsec resources which can, if necessary, be controlled completely by one group. Such resources must be limited for balance reasons, whereas resources that everyone has access to need not be.
In any case, whether you claim the agent 'hands out' 5 million per day or 10 trillion per day, the only statistic that matters is the earnings per character-hour of play time expended. If you are relying on dual accounts to make that earning amount, with two ships fighting the NPCs, or a ship fighting and another looting, then you need to divide that in half. Then compare that to nullsec earnings: ratting (15m to billions per hour), high-end mining (up to 50m or so per hour), moon mining (could be literally billions per hour invested in maintenance of POSes), or PvP (depending on luck, potentially billions in minutes).
The whole argument is silly; if you think mission-runners in a particular system are making more money than you are, you have an easy solution to the problem. Join 'em. Run missions, too, then you will get a shore of the proceeds.
--
Becq Starforged
Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
|
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:58:00 -
[81]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Malcanis
And my point is that 0.0 alliances are fighting for a resource that's trivial compared to the value found in high-sec.
Whether that's right or wrong is for you to decide, but if you think it's right, then I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
It isnt trivial. you are crazy if you think that. Look at how many prom and dysp moons are in delve alone. The earnings per man hour spent is so much higher it isnt even funny.
It is all a zero sum game. If you make 25 mil an hour in empire with no risk, and you make 60 mil in 0.0 an hour, but you lose 50% of that protecting it(lol KOS anyone), you are still making 5 mil more an hour then the empire dweller...
That is a more reaslistic way to look at the balance then your OP IMO.
How much is the average player in that corporation making off of those moons? What are they risking? What are their losses per month? How much does it cost to fuel capitals in defense of the system? Seems to me that a) 0.0 has a higher 'cost of living', so to speak, and b) the rare exception reap the rewards from those amazingly profitable moons.
The op could have pointed out that there are traders who make billions per week playing the market. That is FAR and ABOVE the profit margin of even level 4's. But in hisec, what is your cost of living? Ammo?
The two don't balance out. And let's not get into losec, which has both poor profit margins AND generally is less secure than even nulsec. Losec loses out no matter which way you look at it.
It's about time CCP made losec just like hisec, to be honest. Let the PvPers play in 0.0, let the PvErs play in Empire. Set it up so that the two don't even have to interact. Maybe even go so far as the heavily tax anything going into Empire, like a trade tax, and anything coming out from Empire can be decided on my the soverignity of that particular system.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Somealt Ofmine
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 22:58:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Malcanis
Here's a question: if you have zero interest in 0.0, then why would it matter to you if you made relatively much less than 0.0 players?
Well, point is, I already do. Substantially less. As I said, probably half. Maybe a third on a per-hour-played basis. How much less would you like me to earn?
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:00:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Granmethedon III
Originally by: Concorduck
now think about 175 ppl mission running that are in the same corp, using the same agent, and using a lvl 4 q20 (or even lvl3 q20, easily)...but in NPC 0.0
now, that's some issue we have here.
if you can make 25m/run in high sec missioning lvl 4 q20, imagine the reward that a single blockade in 0.0 (wich allows carriers, remember that) in term of isks, salvage materials, tags and LP (LP rewards from empire are different from NPC 0.0, where you can buy halo/slave/snake/whatever implant sets with LPs). not to get into account ppl with awesome social skills.
isn't that another issue?
so, let's remove agents
oh, wait...
Let me station camp empire level 4 sites, and sure, I see your point.
Station camp a system with 175 people running missions. 
I would like to salvage what is left of your ship.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:03:00 -
[84]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Malcanis
And my point is that 0.0 alliances are fighting for a resource that's trivial compared to the value found in high-sec.
Whether that's right or wrong is for you to decide, but if you think it's right, then I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
It isnt trivial. you are crazy if you think that. Look at how many prom and dysp moons are in delve alone. The earnings per man hour spent is so much higher it isnt even funny.
It is all a zero sum game. If you make 25 mil an hour in empire with no risk, and you make 60 mil in 0.0 an hour, but you lose 50% of that protecting it(lol KOS anyone), you are still making 5 mil more an hour then the empire dweller...
That is a more reaslistic way to look at the balance then your OP IMO.
60M an hour... 
OK, let's look at that sum. That's the kind of ISK/hr that you can get if you spend the time to chain up a high quality 0.0 system with at least 10 or so belts, and you aren't earning 60M/hr till you get your chains working. Believe it or not, systems like that aren't so common. Truesec maps aren't hard to obtain, and people will come and check them out - either friendlies looking for a slice of the pie, or unfriendlies looking for ganks. Both types of visitor will trash your ISK/hr.
If you care to actually read the posts I've made (I realise that doing this puts you at risk of a forum ban) then you'll see that the point I've been consistently making is not that a few lucky individuals can't make more in 0.0 than by high-sec missioning, but that the total (and probably the average) value is far less.
WTB: a system that can support 175 concurrent ratters. WTB a region that can, in fact. Most 0.0 systems struggle to provide 10M/hr tbh.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:04:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Serra Hershey
Your plan is greatly flawed.
A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.
A.) That changes the figure by less than 4%
24/23=0.04347, i.e. more than 4%.
Thank you for posting precisely how insignificant your point was.
You base your whole post on math, but then when it is pointed that your math is wrong, it is "insignificant".
Very weak, Malc.
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:04:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Granmethedon III
Originally by: Concorduck
now think about 175 ppl mission running that are in the same corp, using the same agent, and using a lvl 4 q20 (or even lvl3 q20, easily)...but in NPC 0.0
now, that's some issue we have here.
if you can make 25m/run in high sec missioning lvl 4 q20, imagine the reward that a single blockade in 0.0 (wich allows carriers, remember that) in term of isks, salvage materials, tags and LP (LP rewards from empire are different from NPC 0.0, where you can buy halo/slave/snake/whatever implant sets with LPs). not to get into account ppl with awesome social skills.
isn't that another issue?
so, let's remove agents
oh, wait...
Let me station camp empire level 4 sites, and sure, I see your point.
Station camp a system with 175 people running missions.
I would like to salvage what is left of your ship.
Try it one day. I think you'll be shocked at the results.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:06:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 23:08:36
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You base your whole post on math, but then when it is pointed that your math is wrong, it is "insignificant".
Do you realize that the amount is still, after the 4.xxx% correction you made, stupidly high compared to the ISK printing ability of any 0.0 resource?
Or are you playing the "Oh, hai, your math is wrong, I don't make 100% more ISK then you but only 96%, so you have no pont to stand on." card? It's not very much of a counter-argument, you know.
Naturally, when challenged to find a 0.0 system which can support anywhere remotely close to the ISK printing possibilities of a single L4 high-sec agent, the best way to reply is to nitpick on minor points. Because you damn well know it's totally broken.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:08:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Serra Hershey
Your plan is greatly flawed.
A.) The server is only up 23 hours a day.
A.) That changes the figure by less than 4%
24/23=0.04347, i.e. more than 4%.
Thank you for posting precisely how insignificant your point was.
You base your whole post on math, but then when it is pointed that your math is wrong, it is "insignificant".
Very weak, Malc.
*sigh*
Candidly, what difference does it make if the agent is worth 101Bn/day or 105Bn/day?
You're introducing false precision. Are you not familiar with the phrase "back of an envelope calculation"? You're picking at hairs to try and evade the obvious conclusions inferred from simple facts. Very, very weak, Venkul.
For bonus points: what's the difference between precision and accuracy?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:11:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Malcanis
And my point is that 0.0 alliances are fighting for a resource that's trivial compared to the value found in high-sec.
Whether that's right or wrong is for you to decide, but if you think it's right, then I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.
It isnt trivial. you are crazy if you think that. Look at how many prom and dysp moons are in delve alone. The earnings per man hour spent is so much higher it isnt even funny.
It is all a zero sum game. If you make 25 mil an hour in empire with no risk, and you make 60 mil in 0.0 an hour, but you lose 50% of that protecting it(lol KOS anyone), you are still making 5 mil more an hour then the empire dweller...
That is a more reaslistic way to look at the balance then your OP IMO.
60M an hour...
OK, let's look at that sum. That's the kind of ISK/hr that you can get if you spend the time to chain up a high quality 0.0 system with at least 10 or so belts, and you aren't earning 60M/hr till you get your chains working. Believe it or not, systems like that aren't so common. Truesec maps aren't hard to obtain, and people will come and check them out - either friendlies looking for a slice of the pie, or unfriendlies looking for ganks. Both types of visitor will trash your ISK/hr.
If you care to actually read the posts I've made (I realise that doing this puts you at risk of a forum ban) then you'll see that the point I've been consistently making is not that a few lucky individuals can't make more in 0.0 than by high-sec missioning, but that the total (and probably the average) value is far less.
WTB: a system that can support 175 concurrent ratters. WTB a region that can, in fact. Most 0.0 systems struggle to provide 10M/hr tbh.
You are absoutely crazy, although the portion of stain that exceed did/does reside in is in fact pretty crappy.
10 mil an hour? lol cmon man. You arent even interested in debating the issue.
I have made 60 mil an hour ratting in OSHT. look it up on the map, in one of the busiest corridors in eve. Sorry that you suck at cloaking, and hitting f1,f2,f3.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:13:00 -
[90]
Originally by: mishkof
I have made 60 mil an hour ratting in OSHT. look it up on the map, in one of the busiest corridors in eve. Sorry that you suck at cloaking, and hitting f1,f2,f3.
Can you do that together with 175 other people in system doing the same? Or just 50? Or just 10, for that matter? If not, thank you for proving the OP's point.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
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