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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:13:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Granmethedon III
Seriously, you have a very misguided interpretation of what you can earn, as an individual, in 0.0.
You're also missing out on the fact that CCP, by calling 0.0 the "eng game", wants their players to go there. No shit.
Uh... no I don't. This isn't my main (obviously) but I've been playing quite a while bud.
Pruning and chaining rat spawns and mining ABCs (if you are skilled and equipped for it) in 0.0 both put level 4s to shame, by a wide margin, especially if you are in an area where faction and officer spawns are fairly regular.
Most players don't earn very well in 0.0, but that's just because they lack the initiative and/or the smarts, or because of how their alliance is run and dictates how they spend their time, or because they'd rather be camping a gate, not because it ain't possible.
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Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:15:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Malcanis
(1) I specified player sov.
(2) 0.0 missions are, well, risky. So it's OK for them to have lots of reward, because there's a good helping of risk too. Oh, and they're in 0.0 too. Endgame and all that, I guess.
1) i specified Mrs. White, in the Kitchen, with the rope
2) tell me WHERE for the love of god is "risky" to mission run in great 0.0 player hubs is "risky" to mission.
if you missionrun in 0.0, you can pretty much hop in safespots and wait for bubble to go off from station and dock there (if there's only one station, else, you just use scanner and some common sense).
HELL there are loads of rat-farmers in 0.0, and most times you can't even probe them down.
is probably more "risky" to jump your industrial into jita with 10m worth of stuff in your cargo than mission running in 0.0
and there's no "endgame" and such in this game.
ALSO:
HOLY COW-ON-A-GARMON-POWERED-STICK
are you taking the risk of aggressing a 0.0 mission runner while there are 174 other BS ready to get fleet and warp on him? if so, good luck 
you see, if you get in a 0.0 hub with "at least" 30 players (not so uncommon) while they're in a strict NBSI policy, you'll probably be hunted, instead of hunting...
even if 27 of them are missionrunning, there is at least 1/9 player in 0.0 that is wiping the blood out of their weapons with their (or someone else's) tounge, and will undock with a faction-fitted BS at the sole intent of rage into your hull.
and pod, if necessary to satiate their blood thrist.
-----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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Arrs Grazznic
Consolidated HyperSpatial Logistics
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:16:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Arrs Grazznic on 07/08/2008 23:16:49
I read this thread. All of it. I laughed all the way.
But to the OP's original point... 175 people in a mission hub can make 105b per day.
So... theoretically... I recall that with maxed out mining skills it is just about possible to make 100m per hour mining. following on from this, if you mined for 24 hours you could make 2.4b. Multiply this by 175 people mining you make over 400 billion isk per day.
I know, I know, limited resources, etc., but if you're going to throw random figures around so can anyone else.
TBH, I'm still not really sure what the OP is whining about. Are you saying that an alliance running missions 24/7 in high-sec can make more cash than an alliance holding swathes of 0.0? If so, shouldn't you have a word with RA and let them in on the secret?
Drunk and tired o7
Arrs
Edit: spelling. Damn fingers. And Beer. Bad combo.
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hedfunk
Caldari
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:19:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: Granmethedon III
Seriously, you have a very misguided interpretation of what you can earn, as an individual, in 0.0.
You're also missing out on the fact that CCP, by calling 0.0 the "eng game", wants their players to go there. No shit.
Uh... no I don't. This isn't my main (obviously) but I've been playing quite a while bud.
Pruning and chaining rat spawns and mining ABCs (if you are skilled and equipped for it) in 0.0 both put level 4s to shame, by a wide margin, especially if you are in an area where faction and officer spawns are fairly regular.
Most players don't earn very well in 0.0, but that's just because they lack the initiative and/or the smarts, or because of how their alliance is run and dictates how they spend their time, or because they'd rather be camping a gate, not because it ain't possible.
Having shamefully participated in 0.0 mining, with 4hulks, 3 haulers, and a gang alt giving some nice mining bonuses, we got 60m/hr. Between 5 guys. That's not including the hauling it back down to empire. And the risk of getting blown to pieces.
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Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:20:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Malcanis
(1) I specified player sov.
(2) 0.0 missions are, well, risky. So it's OK for them to have lots of reward, because there's a good helping of risk too. Oh, and they're in 0.0 too. Endgame and all that, I guess.
1) i specified Mrs. Scarlet, in the Kitchen, with the Rope
2) tell me WHERE for the love of god is "risky" to mission run in great 0.0 player hubs is "risky" to mission.
if you missionrun in 0.0, you can pretty much hop in safespots and wait for bubble to go off from station and dock there (if there's only one station, else, you just use scanner and some common sense).
HELL there are loads of rat-farmers in 0.0, and most times you can't even probe them down.
is probably more "risky" to jump your industrial into jita with 10m worth of stuff in your cargo than mission running in 0.0
and there's no "endgame" and such in this game.
ALSO:
HOLY COW-ON-A-GARMON-POWERED-STICK
are you taking the risk of aggressing a 0.0 mission runner while there are 174 other BS ready to get fleet and warp on him? if so, good luck
you see, if you get in a 0.0 hub with "at least" 30 players (not so uncommon) while they're in a strict NBSI policy, you'll probably be hunted, instead of hunting...
even if 27 of them are missionrunning, there is at least 1/10 player in 0.0 that is wiping the blood off their weapons with their (or someone else's) tounge, and will undock with a faction-fitted BS at the sole intent of raging into your hull.
and pod, if necessary to satiate their blood thrist.
and corpse, if really bored.
-----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:21:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Can you do that together with 175 other people in system doing the same? Or just 50? Or just 10, for that matter? If not, thank you for proving the OP's point.
That doesn't really matter. Would you like to put the collective wealth of say, any 175 members of BoB up against the collective wealth of any 175 missioners in Motsu on a Saturday night? The per-capita profit potential in Delve is higher than the per-capita profit potential in Motsu. Hands down.
The only difference is that deriving that potential in Delve requires a lot more organization and cooperation than it does in Motsu, where players can play independantly. They do pay for that privledge in the form of slimmer earnings, though. No doubt.
Now, some alliances make jack-all from their regions, or maybe even lose money on a per-capita basis. That's called sucking, and they probably should move to Motsu. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the relative profit potential of their space compared to empire.
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mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:22:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: mishkof
I have made 60 mil an hour ratting in OSHT. look it up on the map, in one of the busiest corridors in eve. Sorry that you suck at cloaking, and hitting f1,f2,f3.
Can you do that together with 175 other people in system doing the same? Or just 50? Or just 10, for that matter? If not, thank you for proving the OP's point.
Yes and there is an unlimited number of agents that you can make 25 mil an hour with in empire amirght?
Because I am sure if there was there would be 175 people in one system doing them.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:25:00 -
[98]
Originally by: hedfunk
Do you consistently make 60m an hour though? Are you (come Autumn) 99% safe in this region? Does it take you 2mins to dock and undock in a salvage ship then insta sell it on the market? Same with the mins when you reprocess it, can u insta sell that too?
Or do you have to go a few jumps to the nearest friendly outpost, then have to haul your mins out into empire?
Sure, sometimes 6 bil an hour when ole tobias shows up.
I use the mins/reprocessed loot to make megas, that I use in PVP and I collect the insurance money like any self respecing 0.0 resident does.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:27:00 -
[99]
Originally by: hedfunk
Having shamefully participated in 0.0 mining, with 4hulks, 3 haulers, and a gang alt giving some nice mining bonuses, we got 60m/hr. Between 5 guys. That's not including the hauling it back down to empire. And the risk of getting blown to pieces.
Uh... stop mining the hemo? A maxed out hulk mining ABCs can do 80m/hr. without breaking a sweat. I know prices have changed some since I was out there, but not THAT much.
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Sylper Illysten
Caldari
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:29:00 -
[100]
I love how every person who wants to force mission runner to be their unwilling targets brings up the, well agent level (x) peays ammount (y) and if you miultiply that by number of players in system (z) and the hours in the day then every mission runner is making (total) because they're all flying pimped out ships and speed running missions and, and, and....
Here's a clue, not all mission runners can afford faction fits, not all mission runners play 23/7, not all mission runners have billions of isk.
all these nerf misisons/move missions to low sec whines boil down to people who want easy targets in low sec. Risk free gankers, the true care bears of EVE.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:32:00 -
[101]
Quote:
all these nerf misisons/move missions to low sec whines boil down to people who want easy targets in low sec. Risk free gankers, the true care bears of EVE.
1) Moons are distributed between many people, like single agents. That's the point.
2) I'm not nor really ever have been a pirate. You fail
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Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:39:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
Edited by: Arrs Grazznic on 07/08/2008 23:16:49
I read this thread. All of it. I laughed all the way.
But to the OP's original point... 175 people in a mission hub can make 105b per day.
So... theoretically... I recall that with maxed out mining skills it is just about possible to make 100m per hour mining. following on from this, if you mined for 24 hours you could make 2.4b. Multiply this by 175 people mining you make over 400 billion isk per day.
I know, I know, limited resources, etc., but if you're going to throw random figures around so can anyone else.
TBH, I'm still not really sure what the OP is whining about. Are you saying that an alliance running missions 24/7 in high-sec can make more cash than an alliance holding swathes of 0.0? If so, shouldn't you have a word with RA and let them in on the secret?
Drunk and tired o7
Arrs
Edit: spelling. Damn fingers. And Beer. Bad combo.
400B/day - until the ore runs out.
How long would it take those 175 maxed out hulk miners (who I assume are getting their hauling done for free..?) to exhaust the best ore?
Rather less than a day, I'm guessing.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:40:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Originally by: hedfunk
Having shamefully participated in 0.0 mining, with 4hulks, 3 haulers, and a gang alt giving some nice mining bonuses, we got 60m/hr. Between 5 guys. That's not including the hauling it back down to empire. And the risk of getting blown to pieces.
Uh... stop mining the hemo? A maxed out hulk mining ABCs can do 80m/hr. without breaking a sweat. I know prices have changed some since I was out there, but not THAT much.
80M hour? Really?
Post maths please. Don't forget to add in the fact that to get empire prices, you have to haul to empire.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:42:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Sylper Illysten
I love how every person who wants to force mission runner to be their unwilling targets brings up the, well agent level (x) peays ammount (y) and if you miultiply that by number of players in system (z) and the hours in the day then every mission runner is making (total) because they're all flying pimped out ships and speed running missions and, and, and....
Here's a clue, not all mission runners can afford faction fits, not all mission runners play 23/7, not all mission runners have billions of isk.
all these nerf misisons/move missions to low sec whines boil down to people who want easy targets in low sec. Risk free gankers, the true care bears of EVE.
Please indicate where I said any of those things.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:43:00 -
[105]
Nor am I a pirate. In fact, I'm a level 4 mission running carebear. But having been to 0.0 way back when, and done a stint in losec, I can see perfectly clearly that missions in hisec is 'just too good', in a classic quote from 'Buddy' in the Incredibles.
Lumping us all into one category with the worst players in EvE as a means of trivilising or disarming the argument won't work. The profit for the average person in high-sec, versus the average person in low-sec, is just too high, especially considering when you add losses and risk into that equation.
Moon mining is comparable to trading. They are the extremes of both ... well, extremes.
Mining veldspar is extremely profitable, and entirely safe, in hisec, and you can sell it instantly in the system you are working in. Mining other ores may yield slightly better profit (I'm told 'no' from channel, but I can't see how that's possible) in nulsec, but you also have to figure risk and transportation.
Ratting in 0.0 is hit or miss. Sometimes it's amazingly profitable (officer modules, by chance), usually it's not. Meanwhile, as the op has PROVEN, hisec mission running is a instantly renewable, reliable, and open resource to nearly all players, and includes little room for losing a ship and high profit-per-hour.
If you don't think somethings wrong with that, or you think I'm just looking at it wrong, fine. But that's the way I see it, and to me, that's not right. And again, I'm a carebear, not some pirate with an ulterior motive.
So you want security? That's perfectly alright.
But you should be willing to trade freedom and profit for that security. |
Sylper Illysten
Caldari
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:44:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Malcanis
This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.
Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)
Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.
175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.
That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.
1 titan every 14 hours.
A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.
For a
single
agent.
I think your assumptions are fairly visible, I run missions in the limited play time I have and never have I approached the mythical 25 million isk an hour average you expose.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:44:00 -
[107]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: mishkof
I have made 60 mil an hour ratting in OSHT. look it up on the map, in one of the busiest corridors in eve. Sorry that you suck at cloaking, and hitting f1,f2,f3.
Can you do that together with 175 other people in system doing the same? Or just 50? Or just 10, for that matter? If not, thank you for proving the OP's point.
Yes and there is an unlimited number of agents that you can make 25 mil an hour with in empire amirght?
Because I am sure if there was there would be 175 people in one system doing them.
The earning potential of hi-sec agents isn't infinite, and no-one's claimed that it is. In fact my OP implicitly states the limit: 175/agent.
It is, however, hugely larger than that of 0.0
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Viqtoria
Caldari
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:46:00 -
[108]
i mission at 100% efficiency 23 hours a day because i am a mission runner.
nah srsly most of that isk ends up in the hands of 0.0 alliances t2 industry, no?
Please keep your signature on-topic.
 |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:47:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Sylper Illysten
Originally by: Malcanis
This question came up in another thread, and I started to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.
Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. (Observed in Isinokka recently... a bit laggy, but perfectly managable)
Each player can earn 25M an hour - some more, some less, but lets take that as a kind of average of the figures generally cited on the forum.
175x25x24 = 105 BILLION ISK PER DAY.
That's 3.2 trillion ISK per month.
1 titan every 14 hours.
A fully T2 fitted battleship every 130 seconds.
For a
single
agent.
I think your assumptions are fairly visible, I run missions in the limited play time I have and never have I approached the mythical 25 million isk an hour average you expose.
I took the 25M/hr from my personal experience, is all I can say. The fact they you can't make that much doesn't mean that it's not possible to do it. In fact I can make more when I'm really working at it.
When I first went to 0.0, I struggled to make 10M/hr in a good system because I had hardly any SP, couldn't fly a battleship and didn't know what I was doing. That doesn't invalidate the possibility of making 60M/hr from ratting though, and I don't claim it does.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Arrs Grazznic
Consolidated HyperSpatial Logistics
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:50:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Malcanis
400B/day - until the ore runs out.
How long would it take those 175 maxed out hulk miners (who I assume are getting their hauling done for free..?) to exhaust the best ore?
Rather less than a day, I'm guessing.
Yes! Exactly! The same as mission runners or T2 BPO holders or market traders... These figures are all theoretical and not sustainable.
My rhetorical question remains: if it is more profitable for an alliance to run missions in high sec than hold 0.0 space, why are they not doing so?
Or, to go all CAOD for a minute, is this just ground work for when eXceed. fail cascade you can claim high sec is better? oj 
Cheers,
Arrs
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.07 23:56:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 23:08:36
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You base your whole post on math, but then when it is pointed that your math is wrong, it is "insignificant".
Do you realize that the amount is still, after the 4.xxx% correction you made, stupidly high compared to the ISK printing ability of any 0.0 resource?
Or are you playing the "Oh, hai, your math is wrong, I don't make 100% more ISK then you but only 96%, so you have no pont to stand on." card? It's not very much of a counter-argument, you know.
Naturally, when challenged to find a 0.0 system which can support anywhere remotely close to the ISK printing possibilities of a single L4 high-sec agent, the best way to reply is to nitpick on minor points. Because you damn well know it's totally broken.
There are several point, but the most importants:
Malcais count is based on 110 persons farming 1 resource.
Put 110 persons strip mining in adjacent systems (yes, the belts in 1 system will not support them) and even with the time needed to haul the minerals to the station or pos for refining, you will get the same return for hour or even more. Even more as the miners will be killing fat rats while mining.
The point is that you will not get 110 players farming like that in 0.0 as they are there mostly for the PvP.
Then there is the not little point that the 110 average players in one of the busiest high sec systems aren't working for the same alliance. The resources aren't shared, the resources don't pile up to build titans and the resources are based on the important fact that there will be those numbers of people in that kind of system.
0.0 resources need to be scaled up in numbers so you can have 110 players in a system farming some resource? Maybe, but then the "frontier" area lose his meaning. it would be Manhattan, not the gold rush in Alaska.
Oh, BTW, as already pointed out, for NPC 0.0 the isk printing ability is even more. Yes, Malc has said that is not pertinent to the discussion. As that kind of data would weaken his arguments is is very careful saying they aren't important.
Last but not least, those resources are available to you and Malc too. No way to negate them to you. So if they are so good and interesting, why aren't you farming them with your whole alliance?
It is not what you like to do? But it will net you a Titan every day, no alliance can produce that.
You can't block other people from doing that so it is not fun?
Or you want all EVE to be limited to 5 players for system each day as that will make the earning potential of ratting much more than what a high sec agent will give out?
Malc whole argument is flawed from the start.
The comparison is between:
Unlimited resource created for a large number of players indifferent organizations VS limited resourced created to be the sole property of a single organization with a limited number of players
So what is the meaning of comparing the two?
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:58:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
Originally by: Malcanis
400B/day - until the ore runs out.
How long would it take those 175 maxed out hulk miners (who I assume are getting their hauling done for free..?) to exhaust the best ore?
Rather less than a day, I'm guessing.
Yes! Exactly! The same as mission runners or T2 BPO holders or market traders... These figures are all theoretical and not sustainable.
My rhetorical question remains: if it is more profitable for an alliance to run missions in high sec than hold 0.0 space, why are they not doing so?
Or, to go all CAOD for a minute, is this just ground work for when eXceed. fail cascade you can claim high sec is better? oj
Cheers,
Arrs
Perhaps you arent aware, but missions don't run out. The agent can provide an unlimited number of them, 23 hours per day. The only limit is in fact the number of players the node can support.
As for the remark about eXceed, I can't answer you. I've only been in that alliance for 2 days so I'm not really in a position to tell you whether we're about to failcascade or not.
Still, if we do, it'll give me the chance to grind up the ISK for the Thanatos and Moros I'll want for the capital alts I'm training. Should take about 2-3 weeks going on past experience, depending on how fancy a fit I want.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.07 23:58:00 -
[113]
Edited by: mishkof on 08/08/2008 00:00:13
Originally by: Malcanis
The earning potential of hi-sec agents isn't infinite, and no-one's claimed that it is. In fact my OP implicitly states the limit: 175/agent.
It is, however, hugely larger than that of 0.0
Listen I understand your point. I may even agree with it to a certain extent. Doing missions is easy, risk free, I just dont put the same emphasis on the amount of money being made. I however think that anyone saying that making over 25 mil an hour doing missions is "easy" is full of crap.
My stance on the matter is that vast stretches of 0.0 are hardly ever utilised because carebears actually believe the stories of getting ganked at every corner.
I am surprised by the number of people on this forum that talk about 0.0 money making that have never even been there, let alone use it to its full potential.
I also love how people talk about "with my officer fitted CNR I make blah blah" in high sec, when if they put that amount of money, and gained the knowledge to utilise 0.0 they would make 10 times more.
The fact of the matter is IMO most people are to afraid of losing their stuff. They wouldnt be willing to lose a 2 billion rorq if it meant they made 4 bil a month in 0.0 as opposed to 1 in empire.
That is why orginisations like RA and bob are so successful. It isnt a coincidence that not only are they the best at PVP pound for pound, but they are also the richest, and hold a crap load of 0.0 territory.
If all it took was running missions to dominate eve then I would be the first one to quit.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.08 00:00:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Malcanis
*sigh*
Candidly, what difference does it make if the agent is worth 101Bn/day or 105Bn/day?
You're introducing false precision. Are you not familiar with the phrase "back of an envelope calculation"? You're picking at hairs to try and evade the obvious conclusions inferred from simple facts. Very, very weak, Venkul.
For bonus points: what's the difference between precision and accuracy?
Between other things, I am an accountant and the difference between "less than 4%" and "4,4%" can break a firm.
Even more as the total difference is more like 105 billions (your value) to 60 billions ( a more credible value, one that you used later on in the thread).
Originally by: Gamesguy
the suicide ganking is merely an isk farming activity.
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Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:04:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/08/2008 23:08:36
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You base your whole post on math, but then when it is pointed that your math is wrong, it is "insignificant".
Do you realize that the amount is still, after the 4.xxx% correction you made, stupidly high compared to the ISK printing ability of any 0.0 resource?
Or are you playing the "Oh, hai, your math is wrong, I don't make 100% more ISK then you but only 96%, so you have no pont to stand on." card? It's not very much of a counter-argument, you know.
Naturally, when challenged to find a 0.0 system which can support anywhere remotely close to the ISK printing possibilities of a single L4 high-sec agent, the best way to reply is to nitpick on minor points. Because you damn well know it's totally broken.
There are several point, but the most importants:
Malcais count is based on 110 persons farming 1 resource.
Put 110 persons strip mining in adjacent systems (yes, the belts in 1 system will not support them) and even with the time needed to haul the minerals to the station or pos for refining, you will get the same return for hour or even more. Even more as the miners will be killing fat rats while mining.
The point is that you will not get 110 players farming like that in 0.0 as they are there mostly for the PvP.
Then there is the not little point that the 110 average players in one of the busiest high sec systems aren't working for the same alliance. The resources aren't shared, the resources don't pile up to build titans and the resources are based on the important fact that there will be those numbers of people in that kind of system.
0.0 resources need to be scaled up in numbers so you can have 110 players in a system farming some resource? Maybe, but then the "frontier" area lose his meaning. it would be Manhattan, not the gold rush in Alaska.
Oh, BTW, as already pointed out, for NPC 0.0 the isk printing ability is even more. Yes, Malc has said that is not pertinent to the discussion. As that kind of data would weaken his arguments is is very careful saying they aren't important.
Last but not least, those resources are available to you and Malc too. No way to negate them to you. So if they are so good and interesting, why aren't you farming them with your whole alliance?
It is not what you like to do? But it will net you a Titan every day, no alliance can produce that.
You can't block other people from doing that so it is not fun?
Or you want all EVE to be limited to 5 players for system each day as that will make the earning potential of ratting much more than what a high sec agent will give out?
Malc whole argument is flawed from the start.
The comparison is between:
Unlimited resource created for a large number of players indifferent organizations VS limited resourced created to be the sole property of a single organization with a limited number of players
So what is the meaning of comparing the two?
Tell me why G-0Q86, a system which has IIRC seven +20 level 4 combat agents, 3 or 4 +20 level 3s and a level 1 (can't recall quality) doesn't have 175 people in it? It should be a vastly more lucrative system than Motsu or Dodoxie, but has less than a 10th the population. In fact it's frequently deserted when I pass through.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:14:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Ruze
Lumping us all into one category with the worst players in EvE as a means of trivilising or disarming the argument won't work. The profit for the average person in high-sec, versus the average person in low-sec, is just too high, especially considering when you add losses and risk into that equation.
But it is exactly what you and Malc do.
All high sec players are in faction fitted CNR
All high sec players run mission as the only thing they do
All high sec players run mission 12 hours a day, farming the best missions and never doing the others
So why people that disagree with you cand make the same kind of generalizations?
OK you're repeating strawman objections I've already answered at least once. Stop it now.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
mishkof
Caldari
Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:16:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Malcanis
Listen I understand your point. I may even agree with it to a certain extent. Doing missions is easy, risk free, I just dont put the same emphasis on the amount of money being made. I however think that anyone saying that making over 25 mil an hour doing missions is "easy" is full of crap.
It's at least as "easy" as making 60M/hr ratting...
No seriously, probably easier. It requires almost no attention. My skills aren't exceptional either; Caldari BS 4, Cruise 4. The CNR is nice, but they're laughably easy to acquire. You can get one in a couple of weeks after you start missioning with a standard raven, and get the CN launchers/BCS a couple of weeks after that. The DPS is the limiting factor - all the fancy tank mods do is decrease the amount of attention required to avoid losing your ship if you mess up the spawn patterns.
Accept mission, swap out 1-2 hardeners and ammo, undock, complete mission in 5-30 minutes, redock, get paid, accept mission, swap out hardeners/ammo, undock.... 2-4 missions an hour at 5-20M/mission (while foruming/web surfing / watching DvDs / chatting) = 25M/hr. Where's the difficulty?
Making 60 mil an hour is just as easy as making 25 mil an hours missioning. I never said I was good at ratting.....
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response.
[]hate me
[]troll me
[]smack me |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
NIght's Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:17:00 -
[118]
Originally by: mishkof
Making 60 mil an hour is just as easy as making 25 mil an hours missioning. I never said I was good at ratting.....
And the system can support how many players ratting simultaneously now?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Arrs Grazznic
Consolidated HyperSpatial Logistics
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:18:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Malcanis
Perhaps you arent aware, but missions don't run out. The agent can provide an unlimited number of them, 23 hours per day. The only limit is in fact the number of players the node can support.
Yes, I'm very aware that missions do not run out, but in response please point me to an alliance that strips all the belts in all their systems on a daily basis. It doesn't happen. Neither does 175 characters running (best paying) L4 missions 23/7. Yes, the potential to earn vast sums is present in both scenarios, but, again, these figures are theoretical.
I still can't see what point you are trying to make.
Originally by: Malcanis
As for the remark about eXceed, I can't answer you. I've only been in that alliance for 2 days so I'm not really in a position to tell you whether we're about to failcascade or not.
Still, if we do, it'll give me the chance to grind up the ISK for the Thanatos and Moros I'll want for the capital alts I'm training. Should take about 2-3 weeks going on past experience, depending on how fancy a fit I want.
Um, humour bypass detected? It was meant to be a joke to break the rabid comments in the thread, but I guess you're taking all this a bit too seriously.
Cheers,
Arrs
|
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 00:18:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Ruze
Meanwhile, as the op has PROVEN, hisec mission running is a instantly renewable, reliable, and open resource to nearly all players, and includes little room for losing a ship and high profit-per-hour.
The OP has demonstrated that 175 players, doing the same thing, 23 hours day, earn a lot of isk. Full stop. Nothing more.
You've demonstrated that you simply aren't interested in an actual debate, you're just trolling.
For the last time, this is what I actually said:
"Let's say that an agent can serve 175 players at any one time. "
Can you, Mr Pedantic Accountant see the logical difference between that and what you claimed I said?
Can you point to the part where I said "175 players, doing the same thing, 23 hours day". No, you can't, because I didn't say it. It's something you made up, a false characterisation of my argument. What is informally known as a "strawman" argument - a technique much favoured by Creationists.
For someone who claims to be so concerned with accuracy, you're rather deficient in providing it yourself.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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