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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:45:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Mu Yaling
personally.. i believe that suicide ganking was not a "totally painless exercise"
for example.. it isnt EVERY DAY that some random noob comes to your gate afk with a badger full to the brim with 500m.
from my point of view, suicide ganking required a lot of patience, you have to actually BE AT YOUR COMPUTER to make isk.. unlike the r3tarded miners and afk haulers, you have to make very fast decisions on whether its worth it, you need a trustworthy partnet to gather your loot..
then you've got 15 minutes in the station that you just have to sit and wait..
AND OF COURSE DONT FORGET KILLRIGHTS
why the shit have you all forgotten that these clueless afk tards are not just victims, they can EASILY locate the ganker, and finish them off at a convenient time for them.
i know killrights have been a big enough pain in the arse to deter me from ganking a few targets..
All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.
15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.
Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.
Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:46:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 04:34:49
CCP made a game where you can be a ****, they never promised to make it easy. End of story.
It isn't easy as it is. The changes they are envisioning, especially the war-dec changes, will make it almost impossible to effectively harm someone in Empire.
Have you ever run a war? I doubt it.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:48:00 -
[63]
Oh stop being a melodramatic girl.
Having to pick and choose valuable targets is not removing the suicide ganker way of life. Especially with Mulais crap about having to wait and look for the right blah blah, if you're already picking your targets, theres no change. You might make a bit less of a profit, but so will all the haulers and miners now because they have to be damn careful about what they transport. The pickings are slimmer for gankings so the real big hauls are going to be spaced out or hauled very carefully because everyone will be looking for the good kills.
The only thing that got nerfed is picking on newbies for fun. Yeah, it's a ***** that you can't get off on killing new people without eating some isk loss. Get over it.You can still grief, you just have to be willing to pay for it, or work harder at picking your targets.
As for the war-dec changes, they havnt even said exactly what if anything they are planning on doing yet so stop bring that up. They might not change anything, they might remove the cost of decs and put some victory limits on. it might limit you a bit. Deal with it then, but stop trying to piggyback it on to this issue to make yourself look like the victem.
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:50:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.
15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.
Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.
Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!
Again, the problem isn't that CCP is adding the insurance penalty. That was fine, or the sec status penalties were fine. The problem is that they are consistently eroding the ability of players to engage in non-consensual PvP.
They are planning to nerf wars. They are over-nerfing suicide ganks. They are writing articles on the dubious legality of can-flipping and ninja-salvaging.
It was only a couple of months ago that they were writing about suicide ganking.
Anyone can see where this trend is going.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:50:00 -
[65]
OP i feel just like you. I think you are 100% spot on. cba to say much more as i've voiced my opinion here and here.
You are right that all good things must come to an end but lately i get this feeling it'll come sooner than expected. It's kind of an agony and most of my friends in eve start to feel the same. 
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Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:51:00 -
[66]
Removed - please don't flame. -Taera
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:54:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Originally by: Mu Yaling
personally.. i believe that suicide ganking was not a "totally painless exercise"
for example.. it isnt EVERY DAY that some random noob comes to your gate afk with a badger full to the brim with 500m.
from my point of view, suicide ganking required a lot of patience, you have to actually BE AT YOUR COMPUTER to make isk.. unlike the r3tarded miners and afk haulers, you have to make very fast decisions on whether its worth it, you need a trustworthy partnet to gather your loot..
then you've got 15 minutes in the station that you just have to sit and wait..
AND OF COURSE DONT FORGET KILLRIGHTS
why the shit have you all forgotten that these clueless afk tards are not just victims, they can EASILY locate the ganker, and finish them off at a convenient time for them.
i know killrights have been a big enough pain in the arse to deter me from ganking a few targets..
All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.
15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.
Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.
Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!
the big boys are in freighters unfortunately.. the t1 hauler crowd often only has 1 big movement at a time.. no schedule.. just when/if they get lucky..
Also, i am not opposed to the insurance Nerf.
ALSO, who the **** shoots at everbody? did you not read the part where people have to actively scan, evaluate and commit to the gank?
i tell you what sounds like an amazing game though, the eve we have currently, with a UI that doesnt jump about, and a pve community that respects the fact that highsec isnt safe, and that AFK hauling is terrible,
lets be honest is it really required to nerf suicide ganking to prevent afk people from dieing.. come on AFK players..
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:55:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.
15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.
Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.
Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!
Again, the problem isn't that CCP is adding the insurance penalty. That was fine, or the sec status penalties were fine. The problem is that they are consistently eroding the ability of players to engage in non-consensual PvP.
They are planning to nerf wars. They are over-nerfing suicide ganks. They are writing articles on the dubious legality of can-flipping and ninja-salvaging.
It was only a couple of months ago that they were writing about suicide ganking.
Anyone can see where this trend is going.
If you didn't notice, this thread is not solely about suicide ganking, nor has it ever been. This thread is about the way CCP is/has ignored their promises and statements about having a PvP-oriented, unsafe, dangerous universe.
Every time one of these nerfs comes along, people like you start talking about how it won't make any difference, how it will just make things slightly harder, etc.
Well, yeah. Duh. The problem is that CCP KEEPS DOING IT! Hi-sec gets safer and safer, and more and more profitable. There's no reason to take any substantive risk, none whatsoever. And when some of us take it upon ourselves to inject some risk into hi-sec, we get nerfed. Repeatedly.
Even though CCP has continually affirmed that risk/reward is supposed to be an integral part of the game, and proportionately delivered.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:57:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
All that changes in your first example is now you have to figure out on your own which random noobs have tons of stuff in their hauler instead of just blasting everything you can. Get someone's name, figure out what they do, learn which types of people pass through jita with garbage every day and which ones are hauling 3 months worth of faction loot. Gank the ones that MATTER instead of ALL of them. Your profitability won't even change if you get intelligence ahead of time.
15 minutes to sit and wait is A.) not a big deal and B.) who cares, you chose to gank. Go outside or something.
Killrights gives someone the ability to track you down when you are weak and kill you. This relates to my first point, which is that if you do your homework on which people are carrying tons of stuff around, then you'll have a hefty list of targets. Both of these activities require planning and intel gathering, followed by a burst of PVP action.
Sounds like a pretty amazing game to me!
Again, the problem isn't that CCP is adding the insurance penalty. That was fine, or the sec status penalties were fine. The problem is that they are consistently eroding the ability of players to engage in non-consensual PvP.
They are planning to nerf wars. They are over-nerfing suicide ganks. They are writing articles on the dubious legality of can-flipping and ninja-salvaging.
It was only a couple of months ago that they were writing about suicide ganking.
Anyone can see where this trend is going.
I'd say that players in any MMO are clever at coming up with clever new ways to make other people miserable. (note: I like doing this to people!) In time these changes, just like any other EVE development, are going to be long forgotten as people exploit the new war mechanics or whatever else is newly available. I remember a very similar outcry happening when the privateer nerf hit... and yet nonconsensual pvp survives.
As long as CCP allows weapons to shoot player characters' ships in highsec, nonconsensual PVP is not dead. The new mechanics and upcoming nerfs may make things harder, but only until the latest method is found. And then we adapt.
I see no issue with these current changes, and i'm unwilling to concede that it implies a trend towards phasing out nonconsensual pvp in its entirety.
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 04:57:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Originally by: Mu Yaling
Edited by: Mu Yaling on 08/08/2008 04:44:42
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 04:34:49
CCP made a game where you can be a ****, they never promised to make it easy. End of story.
Edit: And theres a subtle different being being aggressive or being a ****, and whining like a teenage girl who got dumped on prom night.
and to you, im not whining, i simply have better ideas than you, that dont end up with this Pvp game turning into Wowinspace.. this has always been "our game" not yours... i'll get you a list of 100+ mmo's that you can safely make money and upgrade your ***** jewelry untill you get bored.. but for us.. this is a haven of adrenaline fueled encounters, logistcal problemsolving, intelligent trading, and ruthlessly efficient money making
but you go enjoy your victory points.. cash them in for some smug feelings.. just remember the people who make this game what it is.. its typically not the 6 month CNR pve crowd..
Oh your being such a whiney little punkass. Your not scared of losing your adreniline, if you were worried about that you wouldnt be suicide ganking haulers. There's no adreniline in that, you shoot, they pop, you pop. You know exactly what'll happen. I make my living stealing so don't try to pull your self rightous bullshit in here.
You want CCP to make it easy for you to do what you want. Grow the **** up.
you've clearly never ganked rofl
you ever seen 700m in cargo get destroyed, only to be left with the random t1 junk?
once you've had that.. your sec status.. those killrights.. it becomes a very exciting and adrenaline fueled event.. i mean. what if i **** som1 off who really has the resources to screw me over AND none of the loot drops..
you see, i have experience on both sides of the fence, you seem to only have the afk hauler perspective.
P.S AFK HAULERS WITH 500m+ ARE NOT NEW PLAYERS
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Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:00:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:02:02
The universe is still unsafe. It's just unsafe for them and you. They are making it harder and less rewarding to attack targets that try to minimize risk. Someone hauling in freighters actively chose a *less* risky profession to make money. There is still risk because of someone wants you bad enough, they are going to pop you, but that doesn't mean you should have to worry about a gatecamp in every system you go thru. Theres a difference between expecting empire to be unsafe, and expecting anarchy
Edit: So what Mu? You're big PvPing is hard and exciting story is sometimes you pop a ship and don't get all the loot they want, or they are an alt for a REAL PvPer who's going to come and kick your ass? If only I led such an exciting life, the space equivilent of attacking the elderly and hoping for a pension check.
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:02:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Mu Yaling
ALSO, who the **** shoots at everbody? did you not read the part where people have to actively scan, evaluate and commit to the gank?
This is the point I was trying to make- That if you still scan, evaluate, and commit to your ganks, then why does this nerf do ANYTHING to you? Profitable ganks are still out there, easily! The ONLY people that should be affected by this nerf are the ones the indiscriminately kill targets, the ones that weren't profitable. The sec status lost WAS too easy to get back from both a RP and a gameplay perspective. If, as you say, you actively assess the risk/reward on each freighter you go after, then you should be able to do so post nerf as well.
If that means more freighters get away, well that's just how it is.
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:02:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
I'd say that players in any MMO are clever at coming up with clever new ways to make other people miserable. (note: I like doing this to people!) In time these changes, just like any other EVE development, are going to be long forgotten as people exploit the new war mechanics or whatever else is newly available. I remember a very similar outcry happening when the privateer nerf hit... and yet nonconsensual pvp survives.
As long as CCP allows weapons to shoot player characters' ships in highsec, nonconsensual PVP is not dead. The new mechanics and upcoming nerfs may make things harder, but only until the latest method is found. And then we adapt.
I see no issue with these current changes, and i'm unwilling to concede that it implies a trend towards phasing out nonconsensual pvp in its entirety.
Let's see...
-WTZ nerf - Badly damaged low-sec piracy
-War-dec nerf - badly hurt privateers, and most mercs/pirates with the new corp-hopping ability
-Lofty removed - no more killing mission runners without 20+ buddies in battleships
That's just a few. In every case, non-consensual PvP was reduced by a large chunk.
These nerfs won't kill it either. It will just tighten the noose, and eventually it's going to kill it.
There's something called "pattern recognition" that a lot of people seem to lack these days.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:04:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
This is the point I was trying to make- That if you still scan, evaluate, and commit to your ganks, then why does this nerf do ANYTHING to you? Profitable ganks are still out there, easily! The ONLY people that should be affected by this nerf are the ones the indiscriminately kill targets, the ones that weren't profitable. The sec status lost WAS too easy to get back from both a RP and a gameplay perspective. If, as you say, you actively assess the risk/reward on each freighter you go after, then you should be able to do so post nerf as well.
If that means more freighters get away, well that's just how it is.
Because it reduces the profit/time margin on suicide ganking to the point where ANYTHING else is much better.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:04:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sean Forrest
The universe is still unsafe. It's just unsafe for them and you. They are making it harder and less rewarding to attack targets that try to minimize risk. Someone hauling in freighters actively chose a *less* risky profession to make money. There is still risk because of someone wants you bad enough, they are going to pop you, but that doesn't mean you should have to worry about a gatecamp in every system you go thru. Theres a difference between expecting empire to be unsafe, and expecting anarchy
for said uber rich freighter pilot, whats wrong with hiring somebody to RR you, whats wrong with WARP TO ZERO.
if you want to transport 5b isk around in your freighter expect to get ganked if u go afk and hit autopilot.. well no after the patch.. if say 50% of that 5b drops.. the gankers may break even (just)
there is a multitude of ways to prevent ganks, i mean **** me, when i shift my stuff im moving a MULTITUDE of expensive ships, mods, ammo.. but i havent been ganked yet.. guess why? i warp to zero i fit agaility enhancing modules, i do 2 trips and survive.
its the lazy scrubs with their 7 expander 2's and billions of isk that cant even be bothered to play the game that deserve to get caught out..
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Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:04:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
I'd say that players in any MMO are clever at coming up with clever new ways to make other people miserable. (note: I like doing this to people!) In time these changes, just like any other EVE development, are going to be long forgotten as people exploit the new war mechanics or whatever else is newly available. I remember a very similar outcry happening when the privateer nerf hit... and yet nonconsensual pvp survives.
As long as CCP allows weapons to shoot player characters' ships in highsec, nonconsensual PVP is not dead. The new mechanics and upcoming nerfs may make things harder, but only until the latest method is found. And then we adapt.
I see no issue with these current changes, and i'm unwilling to concede that it implies a trend towards phasing out nonconsensual pvp in its entirety.
Let's see...
-WTZ nerf - Badly damaged low-sec piracy
-War-dec nerf - badly hurt privateers, and most mercs/pirates with the new corp-hopping ability
-Lofty removed - no more killing mission runners without 20+ buddies in battleships
That's just a few. In every case, non-consensual PvP was reduced by a large chunk.
These nerfs won't kill it either. It will just tighten the noose, and eventually it's going to kill it.
There's something called "pattern recognition" that a lot of people seem to lack these days.
Yeah, and the previous *pattern* was "Whoever has the most SP and ISK can do whatever they want. And thats bad for both business, and a game world.
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:06:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:02:02
The universe is still unsafe. It's just unsafe for them and you. They are making it harder and less rewarding to attack targets that try to minimize risk. Someone hauling in freighters actively chose a *less* risky profession to make money. There is still risk because of someone wants you bad enough, they are going to pop you, but that doesn't mean you should have to worry about a gatecamp in every system you go thru. Theres a difference between expecting empire to be unsafe, and expecting anarchy
Exactly how is it anarchic right now? There's what, maybe 10 major suicide ganks a day? (At least by the Concord concentrations I see.) So what? There are thousands of players not getting ganked. Hi-sec is already safe enough.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:07:00 -
[78]
Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"
The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.
The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.
If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:08:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
This is the point I was trying to make- That if you still scan, evaluate, and commit to your ganks, then why does this nerf do ANYTHING to you? Profitable ganks are still out there, easily! The ONLY people that should be affected by this nerf are the ones the indiscriminately kill targets, the ones that weren't profitable. The sec status lost WAS too easy to get back from both a RP and a gameplay perspective. If, as you say, you actively assess the risk/reward on each freighter you go after, then you should be able to do so post nerf as well.
If that means more freighters get away, well that's just how it is.
have you ever seen a freighter gank? do you understand how much it costs to gank a Freighter in highsec? do you understand how much MORE its going to cost. to the point where even the juiciest targets in the world become meager "break even" targets.
Also, this isnt about suicid ganking, its about the arbitrary limits ccp is putting on PvP at the moment.
"congratulations you capped the enemy corps headquaters, heres 10 victory points, when you reach 100 victory points you can trade it in for a new scarf of +1 fail"
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:08:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Yeah, and the previous *pattern* was "Whoever has the most SP and ISK can do whatever they want. And thats bad for both business, and a game world.
No, because no one could train enough skills to dominate like that.
But even if they could, why the hell should people be penalized for training skills and working hard? Why should we bend backwards to make life easy for those who should learn to do the same things we did?
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Where I got my great sig... |
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El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:10:00 -
[81]
I believe the speed and security changes are needed. I think they will improve the game.
I even believe some war goals are appropriate, I'd like to see what choices they give before wondering if it is to far or not, not enough data yet to determine that.
The speed changes look common sense to me based on size, mass and relative inertia of each of the ship classes. It makes a lot more sense than the system we have today. Will it change how we play, yes it will. However I think the change will be better we'll see a wider variety of ships being employed. More diversity is good. There are so many things that affect everything in this game that it is hard to revamp anything without making as many changes as this does.
I do not think it will be the end of the HAC age, they will still serve a vital function in fleets, and probably still serve well as raiding ships.
Interceptors and Assault Ships should see a comeback, as they are not used as much because other larger ships fit their roles better currently. I see the speed changes as reemphasizing the roles of the various ships as envisioned by CCP.
The security changes make more sense. It makes sense that the security level of the system you do a crime in affects the punishment you recieve. This is much how it works in the real world. I see no problems with the change.
The loss of insurance to deaths from Concord is reasonable. Most insurances today have clauses where you forfeit your insurance if criminal action was involved. I do not think it will end hi sec ganking. I do believe it will shift the ganking to high value targets, or we might see an increase in war declarations.
Changes to war declarations are mostly speculative at the moment. However having a goal in the war is good I think. I mean if the goal is kill the enemy CEO the war generally won't end if the CEO never undocks. I hope they do not include a cool down timer between wars, that is if the war ends the person should be able to declare war again with a new goal if they desire.
I do not believe they have yet revealed all the changes coming, and I think there are some coming that PKers will like. We see only bare glimpses of the whole right now, and sometimes its best to wait til the act is done until we judge.
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Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:11:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:14:08
I'd say it's slightly more rediculous and arbitrary to have thrown "Police related suicide" into the Accept bin for insurance claims. Suicide ganking should never have been profitable because its amazing that anyone could believe that Insurance would pay out for that, let alone that the police would just let your friends loot the ship.
Heres a thought for you. People use freighters and haulers in 0.0 to move goods around, why arn't you and your crew out waiting for those? Is it because they have escorts and scouts that would pop you in a heartbeat? Yeah.
And Vik, People shouldnt be penalized for working hard, but they also shouldnt be penalized for having heard about the game 2 years late. And you can't deny most of the changes coming down are to protect newer players. They may have some effect on the actual pirate-for-profit crowd, but thats not the intention.
Something had to be done because in the end, a 30mil SP char will always dominate a 3mil SP character, just because he joined first. Pair that up with an old PvPers vs a new industry player, and they have no chance.
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:12:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Yeah, and the previous *pattern* was "Whoever has the most SP and ISK can do whatever they want. And thats bad for both business, and a game world.
No, because no one could train enough skills to dominate like that.
But even if they could, why the hell should people be penalized for training skills and working hard? Why should we bend backwards to make life easy for those who should learn to do the same things we did?
quite and to be very honest with you all, i find it EASIER to "grief" on low sp alts than it is on higher sp characters.
i mean.. have you seen the damage a new character can create in a week?
ive known people to cause billions of damage to industrial corps over the course of a week, in just a few frigates.
it is not all about SP and Isk, its about proactive people being (RIGHTFULLY) more succesful than lazy people
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:13:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"
The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.
The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.
If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.
Most suicide ganks have nothing to do with the person being an "enemy". They have to do with making money.
Frankly, how much someone else can lose should never even enter the equation - otherwise, corp thieves should be banned, along with scammers.
The problem is that all of these nerfs are one giant trend that will end almost all non-consensual PvP, by slowly strangling it. And this is not what I was promised when I subscribed almost a year ago.
As to suicide ganking, one or the other of the proposed penalties would have been fine. The problem is that together they make it almost insane to try to suicide gank anyone.
I've been on both sides of that kind of encounter. I know what I'm talking about.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:16:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Heres a thought for you. People use freighters and haulers in 0.0 to move goods around, why arn't you and your crew out waiting for those? Is it because they have escorts and scouts that would pop you in a heartbeat? Yeah.
actually, BTDT. but also, whats gotten into your head since you started eve thats making you believe that Pew Pew HAS to be in 0.0 or lowsec? what if i prefer highsec, maybe the corp i run for my friends operates in highsec, and its easier to enjoy the game with my current group up here, perhaps i like to mine in my spare time, and then WARP TO ZERO haul it to jita for a profit,
perhaps im simply more flexible than you and do not solely believe that pvp = 0.0 and stupid mistakes = highsec.
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Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:16:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"
The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.
The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.
If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.
Most suicide ganks have nothing to do with the person being an "enemy". They have to do with making money.
Frankly, how much someone else can lose should never even enter the equation - otherwise, corp thieves should be banned, along with scammers.
The problem is that all of these nerfs are one giant trend that will end almost all non-consensual PvP, by slowly strangling it. And this is not what I was promised when I subscribed almost a year ago.
As to suicide ganking, one or the other of the proposed penalties would have been fine. The problem is that together they make it almost insane to try to suicide gank anyone.
I've been on both sides of that kind of encounter. I know what I'm talking about.
Most *major* suicide ganks are for money. But they are still the vast majority. I've had around a dozen attempted suicide ganks this week in my theft hauler from angry miners in dessies or kessies. Most suicide ganks are for fun, or angry people who know they dont lose anything for trying.
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Vikarion
Caldari
Onyx Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:17:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Sean Forrest
And Vik, People shouldnt be penalized for working hard, but they also shouldnt be penalized for having heard about the game 2 years late. And you can't deny most of the changes coming down are to protect newer players. They may have some effect on the actual pirate-for-profit crowd, but thats not the intention.
Something had to be done because in the end, a 30mil SP char will always dominate a 3mil SP character, just because he joined first. Pair that up with an old PvPers vs a new industry player, and they have no chance.
If you aren't penalizing the new player for joining late, then you are penalizing the older player. Which makes more sense - hurting the loyal customer, or the one you know nothing about?
And a combat-specialized pilot SHOULD always own an indy player. That's the whole POINT of being a combat pilot. That's also why we have mercs, and corps, and numberless other devices to protect indy pilots, including the NPC corps.
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Where I got my great sig... |
Sean Forrest
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:19:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Sean Forrest on 08/08/2008 05:20:24
Originally by: Mu Yaling
Originally by: Sean Forrest
Heres a thought for you. People use freighters and haulers in 0.0 to move goods around, why arn't you and your crew out waiting for those? Is it because they have escorts and scouts that would pop you in a heartbeat? Yeah.
actually, BTDT. but also, whats gotten into your head since you started eve thats making you believe that Pew Pew HAS to be in 0.0 or lowsec? what if i prefer highsec, maybe the corp i run for my friends operates in highsec, and its easier to enjoy the game with my current group up here, perhaps i like to mine in my spare time, and then WARP TO ZERO haul it to jita for a profit,
perhaps im simply more flexible than you and do not solely believe that pvp = 0.0 and stupid mistakes = highsec.
Pew Pew doesnt *have* to be in low sec, but i you CHOOSE to do it in high sec, you have to accept the penalties. Thats why it is HIGH sec and now LOW sec. Sec stands for Security, or have you forgotten?
And Vik, The combat pilot should own the indy pilot, but it doesnt mean he should own him all the time, whenever he wants for minimal cost. Being older means your stronger, it doesnt mean the new players ar your doormats.
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.08.08 05:19:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"
The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.
The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.
If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.
Most suicide ganks have nothing to do with the person being an "enemy". They have to do with making money.
Frankly, how much someone else can lose should never even enter the equation - otherwise, corp thieves should be banned, along with scammers.
The problem is that all of these nerfs are one giant trend that will end almost all non-consensual PvP, by slowly strangling it. And this is not what I was promised when I subscribed almost a year ago.
As to suicide ganking, one or the other of the proposed penalties would have been fine. The problem is that together they make it almost insane to try to suicide gank anyone.
I've been on both sides of that kind of encounter. I know what I'm talking about.
Why? Corp theivery has arguably the highest punishment you can get in this game, which is to have the character in question shunned by anyone that doesn't want their things stolen. Becoming a pariah in a single sharded game isn't something to consider lightly.
I know you're doing it just to make money, but that doesn't mean you ARENT taking it from someone else. The other forms of moneymaking are taking isk from NPCs, which is entirely different.
Again, let me reiterate. Profiting from someone's loss is fine. Profiting from someone's loss to the same degree -or more!- that you could profit doing something else is also fine. Doing so with no penalties is not. Don't try to pretend that the insurance or the sec status hit weren't needed.
Once again, I don't believe nonconsensual pvp is being strangled out of the game, I believe it's CHANGING, which is different.
To quote jurassic park... Life will find a way.
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Mu Yaling
Greatly Reducing Inflation Every Fight
|
Posted - 2008.08.08 05:26:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Khandara Seraphim
Just because I disagree with your conclusions doesn't mean I'm an idiot, or that I lack "pattern recognition"
The profit/time ratio isnt the only thing to look at when it comes to ganking, you have to think of the isk/time LOST by the other party. The destructive power you're wielding over someone's playtime is a pretty important aspect of the gank. Even if you're just doing it for business, you've still ruined someone's day...or month.
The point is, killing haulers is a tactic to disrupt the enemy as much as it is to gain you profit, and if you combine those two aspects I think that the isk/hour ratio SHOULD be lower for ganking.
If i were able to wreck someone's logistics while ratting, then I'd probably do that for a living too. It's about more than money.
Most suicide ganks have nothing to do with the person being an "enemy". They have to do with making money.
Frankly, how much someone else can lose should never even enter the equation - otherwise, corp thieves should be banned, along with scammers.
The problem is that all of these nerfs are one giant trend that will end almost all non-consensual PvP, by slowly strangling it. And this is not what I was promised when I subscribed almost a year ago.
As to suicide ganking, one or the other of the proposed penalties would have been fine. The problem is that together they make it almost insane to try to suicide gank anyone.
I've been on both sides of that kind of encounter. I know what I'm talking about.
Why? Corp theivery has arguably the highest punishment you can get in this game, which is to have the character in question shunned by anyone that doesn't want their things stolen. Becoming a pariah in a single sharded game isn't something to consider lightly.
I know you're doing it just to make money, but that doesn't mean you ARENT taking it from someone else. The other forms of moneymaking are taking isk from NPCs, which is entirely different.
Again, let me reiterate. Profiting from someone's loss is fine. Profiting from someone's loss to the same degree -or more!- that you could profit doing something else is also fine. Doing so with no penalties is not. Don't try to pretend that the insurance or the sec status hit weren't needed.
Once again, I don't believe nonconsensual pvp is being strangled out of the game, I believe it's CHANGING, which is different.
To quote jurassic park... Life will find a way.
guess how 90% of corp thefts come about?
idiot CEO's who let anyone into their pants on the first date.
again, the safety of your items is determined by your actions, we "griefers" can only exploit stupidity. we are not the problem, we are the solution, and the filter.
dont want to get ganked? WTZ, do it in 2 trips
dont want corp thefts? carefully evaluate EVERYONE you allow access to your hangars, create seperate hangar for expensive stuff..
if the fools wont at least match our proactive exploitation of stupidity, with their own countermeasures, they will lose, whats wrong with that?
tbh, there shouldnt be a sec hit for ganking somebody who thinks hauling 500m in 2000ehp is a good idea..
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