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Author	Topic
thoth rothschild Krupp-Stahl	Posted - 2008.08.08 21:26:00 - [1] Edited by: thoth rothschild on 08/08/2008 21:33:11 Well, currently speed reduction is tested on Sissi and most of the Players complain that there is no more chance in small "Gangwars" and the game gets more boring. Most of the players would say a cov. Ops would be to powerfull on the Black Ops ships but for me this is a chance to keep some aspects of the game exiting. For me this ships role is to be a mobile cloaked portal. It needs no combat utility beside that. I like it to do it¦s currently not existing role perfect. make the ships - more vulnerable - less slots - less boni but + cov ops cloaking + much bigger cargo bay + increased jump range and you will keep the Gang war alive :D
Kaahles Jion Keanturi	Posted - 2008.08.08 22:23:00 - [2] The Black Ops are a powerfull ship class. You don't fly them solo. You fly them in gangs with recons ect. You got tons of ew + dmg + jump portal. God damn it that's just an awsome tool with only one problem. Fuel Consumption / Cargo Bay (choose one ;) ) If this problem gis getting fixed they will be good as they are. They got two weak spots, the sensor strength and the fact, that they can not use cov ops cloaking devices. So why screw the ships up with fixing stuff that is not broken again?
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.09 04:32:00 - [3] Originally by: Kaahles The Black Ops are a powerfull ship class. You don't fly them solo. You fly them in gangs with recons ect. You got tons of ew + dmg + jump portal. God damn it that's just an awsome tool with only one problem. Fuel Consumption / Cargo Bay (choose one ;) ) If this problem gis getting fixed they will be good as they are. They got two weak spots, the sensor strength and the fact, that they can not use cov ops cloaking devices. So why screw the ships up with fixing stuff that is not broken again? /signed
thoth rothschild Krupp-Stahl	Posted - 2008.08.09 06:44:00 - [4] seems once more you did not read my post. I did not ask to make them stronger for solo ability. i asked for making them weaker in combat. I¦d like to see the number of slots reduced. It is not made for combat in my point of view it is made for gang assist to provide a mobile portal.
Grath Telkin Amarr The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.09 07:40:00 - [5] Originally by: thoth rothschild in my point of view found your problem right here
Kaahles Jion Keanturi Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.09 12:24:00 - [6] Edited by: Kaahles on 09/08/2008 12:24:22 Hrm... Well. They are made for Combat. Phase 1: get in superior EW power and use the effect of suprise (portal in recons) Phase 2: get in with the BO itself and do the dmg (since recons don't do very much dmg and stealth bombers are much too vulnerable for larger engagements the BO is the only ship fitting the dmg-dealer role in this situation) As I said, the BO's are good as they are except the fuel/cargo issue. And I won't consider them to be overpowered due tha fact, that they have 2 massive weak spots. If you are not very rich you can also add the price to the list. If you make them even more vulnarable and remove some slots nobody would use this ship anymore. Why spend 500+ million on a ship that's more like a cruiser than a battleship? If you don't like a ship class, don't fly it
The Economist Logically Consistent	Posted - 2008.08.09 14:09:00 - [7] Originally by: Kaahles The Black Ops are a powerfull ship class. CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes) Who the hell are they going to represent???
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.09 15:48:00 - [8] Originally by: The Economist Originally by: Kaahles The Black Ops are a powerfull ship class. it sounded like dev reply. Who cares about underpowered bs that cost 1b.
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.09 16:48:00 - [9] Edited by: Kil''Roy on 09/08/2008 16:49:15 Originally by: The Economist Originally by: Kaahles The Black Ops are a powerfull ship class. That is because some are able to find a way to use it's strengths, while minimizing it's weaknesses, but others try to force it into a role it wasn't designed for... They refuse to use it as it was designed, since they don't agree with the playstyle, but either have forgotten or never read this paraphrased quote from Oveur... "This is not the T2 BS you were looking for" Another words, it's not for everyone, but some fail to accept that. But, yes, it does need to be tweaked, just not reworked, as suggested.
Kaahles Jion Keanturi Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.10 13:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Kil'Roy That is because some are able to find a way to use it's strengths, while minimizing it's weaknesses, but others try to force it into a role it wasn't designed for... They refuse to use it as it was designed, since they don't agree with the playstyle, but either have forgotten or never read this paraphrased quote from Oveur... "This is not the T2 BS you were looking for" Another words, it's not for everyone, but some fail to accept that. But, yes, it does need to be tweaked, just not reworked, as suggested. /signed finally someone who understands what I am trying to say ;)

Vladameir Harkenin	Posted - 2008.08.10 13:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Kaahles Originally by: Kil'Roy That is because some are able to find a way to use it's strengths, while minimizing it's weaknesses, but others try to force it into a role it wasn't designed for... They refuse to use it as it was designed, since they don't agree with the playstyle, but either have forgotten or never read this paraphrased quote from Oveur... "This is not the T2 BS you were looking for" Another words, it's not for everyone, but some fail to accept that. But, yes, it does need to be tweaked, just not reworked, as suggested. /signed finally someone who understands what I am trying to say ;) Some may fail to accept that but I'm not willing to pay over 500mil for something that is completely useless like this guys wants. They need to be tweaked aka made better. I still want a heavy assault bs, I also want a drone controller domi bs, but I don't forsee that happening. Last thing I want is for someone to make a suggestion in killing the (one of the only) t2 bs's. BTW from what I gathered from that quote from ovenur was I wasn't getting my heavy assault battleship, not "we're giving you something that can only open a cov jump portal and sit there cloaked." I think you'd have alot of torqued off bs pilots if something like this even happened, we've waited for our t2 and know you suggest taking it away, words cannot describe what I want to say right now. I might be mistaken by saying this but don't you (when outfitting a ship) improve upon its strengths while trying to minimize it's weaknesses. Thats not using it against it's intended role, that's improving upon it's role.
Car Wars Shinra	Posted - 2008.08.10 20:47:00 - [12] stick a eccm on a marauder and you have your "heavy assault battleship"
LoveKebab coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.10 21:37:00 - [13] Edited by: LoveKebab on 10/08/2008 21:38:30 pft! u just nano the panther and get 55km/s as i do :d but really, black ops are broken as they are now - need to get cargo just for fuel, make their jump range higher (10ly or something closer to carrier)
Xordan Caldari Meridian Dynamics Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.11 00:58:00 - [14] Double jump range or half the amount of fuel they need. Then I think I'd be pretty happy (an extra low slot would be good too, in my dreams).
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.11 07:23:00 - [15] I would be happy even with just a bit longer jump range. Say approx 6 ly with max skills as current 4.5 is not quite enough to reach some odd not-cyno-jammed system beyond the initial gate camp cascade in 0.0 entry pipes. 8 to 9 ly would be outright awesome. Or ability to jump into cyno jammed systems. As far as fuel consumtion and cargo bay go it would be good to have a bit more room as even with lows full of cargo expanders it's damn tight to jump in (and out afterwards) more than 3 recons. Especially as nanos after the upcoming change will no longer lower the ship mass. OP has afterall good point in that regard that jumping is one of this ship unique abilities. Everything else some other ship can do better or cheaper (usually both).
Pippi Fax	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:17:00 - [16] I like the Black Ops as they are, except for the short jump range and to not being able to fit a cov ops cloaking device. The damage output of this BS is not the best (compared with normal Battleships), so why not make a Recon class ship being able to cloak? I see their strength of course in being able to let other recons/cov ops jump with it but they are weak Battleships at all. If they will be able to fit cov ops cloakings and jump a little bit longer (and maybe nerf the local would be fine ), i will be really happy
Xordan Caldari Meridian Dynamics Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.11 22:33:00 - [17] Now that I do some comparing, the T1 BS is actually better than the Black Ops when it comes to doing anything pretty much. For a Widow, it's slightly better than the scorp in sneak ewar situations due to the extra high slot.. but it's actually a weaker ship. Plus I can fit something like 8 T1 versions and have good insurance cover for the same price as 1 Black Ops with really bad insurance. :p
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.12 09:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Xordan Now that I do some comparing, the T1 BS is actually better than the Black Ops when it comes to doing anything pretty much. For a Widow, it's slightly better than the scorp in sneak ewar situations due to the extra high slot.. but it's actually a weaker ship. Plus I can fit something like 8 T1 versions and have good insurance cover for the same price as 1 Black Ops with really bad insurance. :p Wow, you might think that was done on purpose.
reg keeper 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.17 12:04:00 - [19] I have and do use a redeemer. After months of testing iev come to a point where i except its weakness. The jump range is limited but very handy to get recons in to suprise strike positions, The cargo bay is small so the fuel needs to be carried by the recon squad to off set this. The non covert cloak makes the use of stargates a risky buissness. As for fire power its not to bad but is no ganker geddon. On the up side it can snip from afar with aplumb. For fixing this class of ship I would suggest just 2 things. Decrease the fuel needs for jump portals usage and increase its range. Allow covert cloak's to be fitted. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com - Mitnal
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.08.17 12:46:00 - [20] How about a rig that allows any sub cap to use the portal? It would cost you isk and some of the maximum potential of your ship to do it, but you could do it.

reg keeper 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.17 12:53:00 - [21] With onll 2 rig slots on B-Ops the chances of using one of these up for another module that would cost you even more fuela dn gimp your set up even more defies logic. It not cheap to lob a falcon thru the portal at the moment, I dred to think of the cost of say a megatron or somthing of that size. Keep there out line as it is. Just tweak the fuel / cargo hold issue and look hard at the covert cloak. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com - Mitnal
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.17 14:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Gimpb How about a rig that allows any sub cap to use the portal? It would cost you isk and some of the maximum potential of your ship to do it, but you could do it. If sutch rig would be allowed it should be mounted on the ship using that portal, not on black op one, as for black op it would be default pick.
DrThresher	Posted - 2008.08.18 08:44:00 - [23] With Black OPS ships. Could have an extra skill to use "Black Ops Jump Fuel" 110+ octane , which is compressed fuel made from ice mining istopes with a reaction with atmospheric gas on moons, when used allow for the extra couple of light year from the current ly range on normal fuel isotope fuel. However can still use the normal isotope fuel 93 octane with current limits imposed, when special black ops jump fuel is not around. It would add more depth to the playing ok in the end everyone be using the black ops fuel, it not a nerf more of enhancement. ;) Create a player base industry background to create the fuel, player driven so prices could be alot higher than normal isotope fuel. So those deep incursions costs alot more thought and ISK's to succeed.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:22:00 - [24] Edited by: Amy Wang on 18/08/2008 17:23:21 what black ops class needs is very simple: - ability to bypass cyno jammers with a covert cyno generator - ability to jump more ships with one fuel filling (either massively reduce fuel consumption or give it a large seperate isotope holding fuel bay) what it can use as well, but not as urgent: - longer jump/bridge range what it does not need: - covert cloak - changes in combat abilities or layout (neither nerf nor buff) what the panther needs: - a useful bonus instead of the silly speed one
Waxau Infusion.	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:32:00 - [25] Jesus...people sometimes have no clue, eh? Black ops are NOT FINE at the moment. They ARE good for solo work. They ARENT good for group work. Pray tell, if you have a group of 8 vs 8....do you think you're going to live, or die? The Widow (I fly it, and do this. So shush your unknowledgable mouths) can jam its targets for the majority of any fight, point them, jam them, and dish out a considerable amount of dps to kill them. However, a scorp with a similar fit, can do likewise, with less risk, less cost, and less vulnerability. With the only downside being a loss in 'slight' stealth and less dps. The rest of the black ops suck in any scenario, bar from the redeemer, which can have some SLIGHT use in a gatecamp. Other than that, the ship class is highly pointless. The SIMPLE way around it, is reworking the entire class, and making them BS sized Force Recons, with some dps. By doing so, it allows a boost to the ship class, allows current specialisation to continue on, allow the ships to become solo vessels, which in turn will give capital pilots an extra tree in which their skills can continue into. And the best part of all, will be that they'll be able to move around cloaked. A designated fuel bay, and increased jump range, and theyre fixed. It removes the scan res penalty that makes the class somewhat flawed atm, aswell as allowing them some more survivability. The downsides are present in themselves, by having weak tanks, huge issues with fitting (full fit on a widow for example, means you cant have an onlined jump portal), and that of an increase in people flying the ships. Which in turn gives them a greater death rate. Those who think the only 'downside' is the jump range/fuel issues....Dont for a second try and have a say on the topic, when you yourselves dont know about the ships.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Waxau Jesus...people sometimes have no clue, eh? Black ops are NOT FINE at the moment. They ARE good for solo work. They ARENT good for group work. Pray tell, if you have a group of 8 vs 8....do you think you're going to live, or die? The Widow (I fly it, and do this. So shush your unknowledgable mouths) can jam its targets for the majority of any fight, point them, jam them, and dish out a considerable amount of dps to kill them. However, a scorp with a similar fit, can do likewise, with less risk, less cost, and less vulnerability. With the only downside being a loss in 'slight' stealth and less dps. The rest of the black ops suck in any scenario, bar from the redeemer, which can have some SLIGHT use in a gatecamp. Other than that, the ship class is highly pointless. The SIMPLE way around it, is reworking the entire class, and making them BS sized Force Recons, with some dps. By doing so, it allows a boost to the ship class, allows current specialisation to continue on, allow the ships to become solo vessels, which in turn will give capital pilots an extra tree in which their skills can continue into. And the best part of all, will be that they'll be able to move around cloaked. A designated fuel bay, and increased jump range, and theyre fixed. It removes the scan res penalty that makes the class somewhat flawed atm, aswell as allowing them some more survivability. The downsides are present in themselves, by having weak tanks, huge issues with fitting (full fit on a widow for example, means you cant have an onlined jump portal), and that of an increase in people flying the ships. Which in turn gives them a greater death rate. Those who think the only 'downside' is the jump range/fuel issues....Dont for a second try and have a say on the topic, when you yourselves dont know about the ships. Pretty much this ^, though as well as this, I have argued in other threads for a change from force and combat into ewar (ewar bonuses and then damage bonus) and combat (damage bonuses and then ewar bonus) pairs would be more fun, as it would be a different form of diversity, both ofc having covops cloak (its a huge cloaky ship, why wouldn't it fit covops cloak, not like it hasn't got the cpu/room, if a frig has...)
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:19:00 - [27] Black ops are pretty cool as they are. at least widow and panther dunno about others. Making them less powerful in combat would BREAK them for me. Because I have found pretty good uses for them. Having a bit dps while not suffering cloaking delay is VERY good thing, added with ability to go around 200m/s (or much more) while cloaked! Don't spoil a very good ship class with complaints about covert ops cloak, which was very apparenly NOT meant to be used with them. They can do perfectly without one. Only bad thing is very little amount of space in cargo for fuel and ammo (widow can barely carry enough missiles to shoot now where you put the fuel then?) + jump drive distance which is pretty limited.
Waxau Infusion.	Posted - 2008.08.18 20:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Black ops are pretty cool as they are. at least widow and panther dunno about others. Making them less powerful in combat would BREAK them for me. Because I have found pretty good uses for them. Having a bit dps while not suffering cloaking delay is VERY good thing, added with ability to go around 200m/s (or much more) while cloaked! Don't spoil a very good ship class with complaints about covert ops cloak, which was very apparenly NOT meant to be used with them. They can do perfectly without one. Only bad thing is very little amount of space in cargo for fuel and ammo (widow can barely carry enough missiles to shoot now where you put the fuel then?) + jump drive distance which is pretty limited. The dps isnt really that great for a t2 BS. Although acceptable. As for the cloak....200ms is hardly useful. With a covert ops, you can warp onto people, rather than fly towards them. And how the heck is an improved cloak 'perfect'? Its meant to be stealthy...so how does it help, when your target SEES you cloak? And you say 'very apparently NOT meant to be used with them'. Sorry....where did you hear this from? And a final note - Doesnt suffer from cloaking delay? Yeah..lol...sure. You tell that to my carrier-style scan resolution, due to fitting an Improved Cloak. Awesome, yeah?
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2008.08.19 04:31:00 - [29] If you can't figure how to make them work for ya, don't fly 'em. And, as other "Recon" type ships, they aren't meant to have much more DPS than their T1 counterparts. Some things need to be looked at, but a CovOps Cloak is not one of them.
Waxau Infusion.	Posted - 2008.08.19 10:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Kil'Roy If you can't figure how to make them work for ya, don't fly 'em. And, as other "Recon" type ships, they aren't meant to have much more DPS than their T1 counterparts. Some things need to be looked at, but a CovOps Cloak is not one of them. Unlike some mate, i try to make them work in their current condition. Doesnt alter the fact that they suck in any scenario. Heck, im frightened of engaging a vexor in my Widow in some cases. Because thats all it would take most of the time. And if you have a look....whilst they dont have more dps....they also dont have jump portals, or jump drives. Im not comparing the two ships in any way, other than the role of being covert. Who cares if a bomber cant warp cloaked...they cost 10 mil, and are easy to skill for. A Black Ops is not.

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