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Arazu Needs Some TLC

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Vladameir Harkenin	Posted - 2008.08.12 16:17:00 - [31] Edited by: Vladameir Harkenin on 12/08/2008 16:19:12 Originally by: Dzajic Arazu isnt the Combat Recon, Lachesis is. If you want to have a ship to pwn nubs by scrambling them and damping them, use Lachesis, cry for CCP to boost its combat abilities, whatever. Arazu should be a ewar boat primary. And with damps ugly range, it cant do that any good. I mean, it can be nice, but ECM boats are way too better. I agree with the first and mostly the second. The only problem I have with the second part is range for damps. I'd have no problem with damps at there current range, but it would be nice if the arazu had a 7.5% bonus to damp effectiveness. Another idea I was having. Swapping the low/mids of the arazu/lach, this way the lach has more lows for a armor tank while the zu would have more mids for ewar but less lows for tanking(maybe do something with grid/cpu if needed). Lach having 50m3 drone bandwidth and 100m3 drone bay would be more combatish imo as well leaving the zu with it's current bay. I was also thinking dropping the 5% damage to med turrets in exchange for 10% drone damage on the lach. As much as I would like to see the celestis family alive again that idea is probably reaching a little far as it would be stepping into the curses territory. Some say it's getting boosted with this patch, I say no, taking a lach/zu that close to combat is basically like asking a falcon/rook pilot to warp in 50km from the fight (suicidal). Me personally I always see the warp disrupter as a huggins target painter, it was just there (if the target has 3-4 points on him is it really gonna hurt him to add another...he probably won't care). I don't think it really matters though, there was a thread a long time ago about the arazu/lach and never had a dev responce and no changes have happened yet. Who knows, maybe a year from now we can finally say "omg, the celestis familiy works again", but until then I'll be in my falcon.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors.	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:17:00 - [32] Instead of talking about how this system will never get fixed and variations there-of, I want to see some logical idea's on making the Arazu/Lachesis effective once again. Please contribute by helping this thread along in that general direction. If CSM (who are bringing this up at their next meeting I think to begin with) have a good thread to review (same with the Dev's), we're more like to get some changes going to these two ships. A couple of good idea's I've read so far: Quote: Swap the Arazu/Lachesis slot layouts. +more dampening power for the Arazu +more combat prowess for the Lachesis Drone Bay Increase: +10 to drone bandwidth +60m3 to drone-bay RSD Role Bonus: Arazu: Standard 50% bonus to all RSD Effects Lachesis: Standard 50% bonus to all RSD Effects Arazu: 50% longer range to RSD optimal Lachesis: 50% longer range to RSD optimal Sensor Dampening Drones: Make them non-stacking nerfed. They will be in line with eWAR drones. Ok. Discuss. Would they become over-powered? If so... would this be a good start? And would baby steps be an appropriate way to bring the Arazu/Lachesis in line with other Recon's? Do you have any other idea's? ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO)
Asno Malo	Posted - 2008.08.12 19:59:00 - [33] Greetings, Originally by: Solomon XI Presently the Arazu is the most ineffective of all Recon's. The original intent of the RSD nerf was to bring RSD's more into line with ECM, meaning that non specialized ships would no longer be as effective as specialized ships. In theory this should have been a good thing, however something that CCP appears to have forgoton prior to implementing it was that the RSD specialized ships did not get the 20% per level effectiveness bonus that ECM specialized ships got. Prior to the nerf there was only about a 3% difference in effectiveness between an Arazu with RSDs and a Falcon with RSDs for example, assuming equal skills of course. After the nerf, the difference between that same Arazu and Falcon is about 4%. To be honest a Falcon can actually damp more effectively than an Arazu due to the extra two mid slots, but that is a different story. Quote: Sensor dampening on the Arazu needs a significant increase to be in-line with the other force recons. Perhaps this: +50% bonus to the effectiveness of sensor dampeners +25% bonus per level to warp-disruptor range. I don't know that I would go that high, instead I would with something more like 15% effectiveness per level on the RSDs versus the current 5% and leave the warp disruptors as is. As a semi fair comparison, we will use the Falcon as ECM and the Arazu as RSD. Assuming L4 in all EWar skills and L4 in Recon, the Falcon can eliminate the targeting of 2 Ishtars 100% of the time up to roughly 150KM using Multispec ECM II, or 4 Isthars with Magnetometric ECM II compared to the Arazu, using RSD II, which can reduce the targeting range of 1 Ishtar down to 18KM 100% of the time up to roughly 42KM or 3 Isthar down to 62KM 100% of the time up to roughly 42KM. No rigs, implants or enhancement modules were used in these calculations only range reduction scripts for the RSD II, skill bonuses and ship bonuses. To make matters worse, the changes being introduce in the speed nerf are such that the many FC's are going to be demanding Arazu's to kill MWD, but due to the current effectiveness of RSDs, the Arazu has to get in so close to use the new MWD scram that it's damps are no longer effective.
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors.	Posted - 2008.08.12 20:15:00 - [34] @ Asno: Very good read. A lot of good points are made. ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO)
Kira Novia	Posted - 2008.08.12 23:59:00 - [35] Double the Celestis bonus? Might be a viable boost to both the Arazu and Lachesis...
Rassad Point-Zero R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.08.13 02:45:00 - [36] Train Recons to 5 and train the extra sensor damp skills, i feel that it can jam quiet nicely. It does need to be able to use 5 drones tho.
here'n'there	Posted - 2008.08.13 09:30:00 - [37] Originally by: Rassad Train Recons to 5 and train the extra sensor damp skills, i feel that it can jam quiet nicely. It does need to be able to use 5 drones tho. jam you say? i'm not sure, but something tells me, that arazu/lachesis wont jam quiet nicely ever well, i know, you mean damp enemy sensors. first, recon skill doesnt affect dampeners on these ships (+5% to effectiveness per cruiser level), so recon 5 or recon 1 - doesnt matter. second, i made some testing: arazu with 3 RSD (sensor damps scripts), no rigs, all skills affecting damps level 4 - and target still has 19-20% of it's original sensor lock range. about drones.. lachesis maybe needs to be able to field 5 drones. arazu - not quite sure.. better boost bonus from +5% to +10% (maybe better, but it may become to overpowered) to RSD.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.13 12:34:00 - [38] Yeah. Lachesis is somewhat worthless now and I don't think I've ever seen one actually flown nor can I imagine why you'd want to fly one. It can't fit a non-nano tank and the Celestis line can only affect 1 target at a time unlike the rest of the recon boats that can neutralize 2-3. I think some of these suggestions might be a bit 'too good' though. I think it'd make a world of difference to up the effectiveness to 10-15% and maybe up the range bonus a bit on the disruptor style weapons so that it can scram out to about 25km without fielding a faction scram. On the Lachesis give it a 100m3 drone bay so it can field potentially 4 heavies and an additional low slot with slightly better powergrid so it can comfortably fit a tank. With the Lachesis its DPS is in line with other ships of its type but its tanking is way off (assuming non-nano fit) and the whole thing about damps is in their current state they can only reasonable affect 1 target at a time whereas other recon ships can affect 2-3. So they need an improvement to effectiveness and the Lachesis specifically needs to tank a bit better.
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 15:40:00 - [39] Originally by: Malena Panic Originally by: Kalintos Tyl did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think. It's a short range tackle boat that can't maneuver, tank or DPS, but will (briefly) enjoy infamy at the top of every primary list. Enjoy your suicide ship. Short Range?!?!? With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used. .
Asno Malo	Posted - 2008.08.13 15:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Malena Panic Originally by: Kalintos Tyl did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think. It's a short range tackle boat that can't maneuver, tank or DPS, but will (briefly) enjoy infamy at the top of every primary list. Enjoy your suicide ship. Short Range?!?!? With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used. While you caught that she was referring to scramblers, you may not realize why. One of the things the Devs are looking at doing is making scramblers disable MWD. As such, they now have to be looked at on Arazu's as a tactical weapon.

voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:09:00 - [41] Edited by: voogru on 13/08/2008 16:10:19 What are you guys talking about? The Arazu is a great ship. I buy them off the market from silly people who sell them for less than the mineral cost, then I reprocess them and turn their parts into Falcons. Free money. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:22:00 - [42] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 13/08/2008 16:26:11 Originally by: Asno Malo Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Malena Panic Originally by: Kalintos Tyl did you try new arazu with warp scramblers? Heated cheap factions have near 30km range,it wil lbe narfed soon i think. It's a short range tackle boat that can't maneuver, tank or DPS, but will (briefly) enjoy infamy at the top of every primary list. Enjoy your suicide ship. Short Range?!?!? With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used. While you caught that she was referring to scramblers, you may not realize why. One of the things the Devs are looking at doing is making scramblers disable MWD. As such, they now have to be looked at on Arazu's as a tactical weapon. No, they don't. The Arazu isn't a short range tackler. People need to stop trying to jam square pegs into round holes. The Arazu/Lachesis are long range tacklers that work in gangs, not solo. Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers (though they can) and there's nothing saying you can't combine them with a command ship running skirmish warfare links and get scramblers out to 40km+ ranges. Combine that with a falcon in the group to handle JAMMING (which is NOT what the lach/arazu are supposed to do) and they are absolutely fine. Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships. They're not the best solo boats in the world (though with the speed nerfs they'll be MUCH better at it) but they are very useful. And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you? There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used). .
Asno Malo	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:54:00 - [43] Originally by: Taram Caldar No, they don't. The Arazu isn't a short range tackler. People need to stop trying to jam square pegs into round holes. The Arazu/Lachesis are long range tacklers that work in gangs, not solo. Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers (though they can) and there's nothing saying you can't combine them with a command ship running skirmish warfare links and get scramblers out to 40km+ ranges. Again, with the Dev's proposed nano nerfs, it will be the FC's demanding that the Arazu's carry the scrams due to the MWD disabling abilities. Quote: 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. At one time perhaps this was true, however, as of last December's danmp nerf, a single Arazu, Celestis, or Lachesis requires 3 RSD IIs to damp a single target down to roughly 20% of it's normal targeting range, and that is assuming that all 3 RSDs are using the range script, the pilot has Recon IV, and all EWar at IV, and that the pilot can get within 42KM of the sniper. Quote: Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Not even close, please read my first post above. With equal skills the Falcon's jamming far exceeds the Arazu's ability to damp and if the Falcon is using race specific jammers, they are near 100%. Additionally, if by giving up my drones, my Arazu became as effective at damping as the Falcon is at Jamming, I would jump on it in a heartbeat, why? Because the Falcon is just as efficient at 140KM as it is at 50KM, 10KM, and 5KM. Not so with the Arazu. The Arazu is *ONLY* effective between 20KM and 43KM, and that is against ships with max targeting ranges under 100KM. Once their max range exceeds 100KM, then the range of the Arazu's effectiveness begins to shrink. Quote: There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used). Again, prior to the December nerf, this may have been true, but that nerf hammered the Arazu, Celestis, and Lachesis. Additionally, as I stated above, the Falcon is still within 4% of the effectiveness with damps as the Arazu, though the Arazu is less than 5% of the effectiveness of the Falcon with jams. And no, the vast majority of people that I talk to simply want their damp effectiveness back to what it was prior to December for the Arazu and Lachesis only. Hmmm, sounds just like the Falcon pilots prior to getting their ECM effectiveness back. ;)
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance	Posted - 2008.08.13 16:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 13/08/2008 16:26:11 Short Range?!?!? With standard T2 disruptors the damn thing can tackle out to 60km... how in hell is that a short range tackle ship? Stop putting scramblers on it and use it like it was meant to be used. While you caught that she was referring to scramblers, you may not realize why. One of the things the Devs are looking at doing is making scramblers disable MWD. As such, they now have to be looked at on Arazu's as a tactical weapon. No, they don't. The Arazu isn't a short range tackler. People need to stop trying to jam square pegs into round holes. The Arazu/Lachesis are long range tacklers that work in gangs, not solo. Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers (though they can) and there's nothing saying you can't combine them with a command ship running skirmish warfare links and get scramblers out to 40km+ ranges. Combine that with a falcon in the group to handle JAMMING (which is NOT what the lach/arazu are supposed to do) and they are absolutely fine. Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships. They're not the best solo boats in the world (though with the speed nerfs they'll be MUCH better at it) but they are very useful. And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you? There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used). You overlook the difference on the range of ecm on a falcon and the range of damps on an arazu, that arazu will be jammed before he even gets in range to damp a falcon. And, that falcon will all the while be jamming 2, 3, or 4 other ships as well. Have you flown an Arazu since the damp nerf? Damps are now the suck even on an Arazu. I might even place them below tracking disruptors and target painters. A falcon can neuter multiple ships with it's mids, an arazu has to use all it's ew available mids to take maybe one ship out of the fight or protect itself. As for the tackle ability that the Arazu has and the Falcon lacks, have you seen any pvp gangs with multiple Arazus? I haven't but i've seen plenty with multiple Falcons and they are very effective. Other ships frankly do a better job tackling even without the range bonus, and ceptors now get good range on warp disrupt. Not sure if that situation will change with the patch. It may. Regardless, there needs to be some boost to the damp abilities on dedicated damping ships. They are subpar without it, and will continue to be subpar even with the changes to tackling mods.
here'n'there	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:02:00 - [45] Edited by: here''n''there on 13/08/2008 17:04:46 Originally by: Taram Caldar Nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp scramblers (though they can) nowhere did the Devs state that the Arazu/Lachesis were supposed to be used with warp disruptors Originally by: Taram Caldar Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships. i cant imagine situation where you prefer to use arazu/lachesis instead of falcons.. can you? Originally by: Taram Caldar And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. falcons can do the same, except their ECM range is much longer Originally by: Taram Caldar They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. they cant. because 1st: ECM has far more optimal then damps. so, to damp falcons, you must be much closer to falcon. falcon can just jam you, while you are trying to fly to falcon. 2nd: 1 RSD will reduse falcon's lock range to 70-80kms. not to effective. you need at least 3 RSD to neutralize 1 falcon. and if falcon is using sensor booster, arazu/lachesis is just useless against it. Originally by: Taram Caldar They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. 3 RSD and target still has 19-20% of it's original lock range. that means - close range ships dont even notice RSD. snipers with sensor boosters will treat you like a minor nuisance. Originally by: Taram Caldar If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you? so, you say that arazu/lachesis is not a short range ship. must operate at 30-40 kms range, right? how can i effective use drones at this range? or deal some dps to target? to do so, you must operate at 10-20 kms. and i willignly give up arazu's drone pay to be as effective as falcon. hell, turrets slots too. Originally by: Taram Caldar There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used). nonsence.. people want them to be at least usable, worth flying. and how do you know, how each ship must be used? divine knowledge? p.s. sorry for my english
Podruski Violent Fury	Posted - 2008.08.13 17:21:00 - [46] There is a problem with the arazu.... lets start by comparing it to the falcon. The Falcon is horribly imbalanced at the moment, and unless this is the desired effect of all recons, it needs to be leveled or nerfed. Falcon vs Arazu: -ECM Rigs give 10% boost to jammer strength where as dampener rigs get only 5%. -There is a signal dispertion amplifier, jammers are the only ew which gets this boost module. -The falcon gets a 20% bonus to the strength of ECM where Arazu gets 5% boost. -With skills and mods, jammers are like 8 times as effective as the base module where an arazu with skills mods and scripts is less than 4x. Now to complain and say that this makes the arazu useless and bad would be ill-advised, as the ship is still effective. Although this doesnt mean that it is in line with the effectiveness of a falcon. I think that a balancing of the recons needs to take place. All other recons are forced to deal with 2 different EW bonus while the falcon has one specific purpose. Ok sure, the falcon is not as versatile, but its not like recons are useful in terms of dps anyway.... So either all recons need to be boosted or falcon needs a nerf but as it stands right now, they are horribly imbalanced in terms of effectiveness. TLC towards arazu or Hate to falcons... either would make me happy. ____________________________________________ Pirating sucks.
Asno Malo	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:03:00 - [47] Originally by: Podruski TLC towards arazu or Hate to falcons... either would make me happy. Nahh, the Falcon is just about perfect where it is. Now, if you were instead referring to the Scorpion, then I would be right there with you. But yes, the Arazu does need some love and I am not asking much. Simply change the 5% effectiveness to 15% effectiveness and I would be a happy camper.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.13 18:04:00 - [48] Originally by: Taram Caldar Use ships the way they are meant to be used. The Arazu (and the Lachesis) are both excellent gang warfare ships. They're not the best solo boats in the world (though with the speed nerfs they'll be MUCH better at it) but they are very useful. And those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? They are able to right now. They can web 2+ ships down by 90% speed quite easily. Pilgrim can split neuts likewise rather effectively. Originally by: Taram Caldar 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. They can damp up to 3 falcons to the point where they have to warp in much closer in order to get locks to jam. They can use all 3 damps to nullify any single ship to incredibly low lock ranges unless they're using stacks of sensor boosters to counter the damps. Against ships that don't have sensor boosters fitted they are almost as powerful as a falcon, but have 0 chance of failure. If you want it's damps to be as effective as jammers are on a Falcon? Sounds great to me, but give up your drone bay in the process. Remember: Falcons have no drones... they have TWO launcher slots and ONE turret slot. Somehow I don't see pilots wanting to give up their drone bays. Do you? This whole bit here is you proving you've never flown the damn things. If you think you can damp 3 targets down enough then you're obviously blissfully unaware that a single damp on a target is worthless. Originally by: Taram Caldar There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers (which is not how they were intended to be used). No, I'd like it to be at least marginally useful against more than one enemy, which it currently isn't.
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 00:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Originally by: Taram Caldar Those stating that they need to be able to 'neutralize 2-3 enemy ships "like the other recons"' are delusional. When exactly was the Rapier or the Pilgrim able to 'neutralize' more than 1 ship at a time effectively? They are able to right now. They can web 2+ ships down by 90% speed quite easily. Pilgrim can split neuts likewise rather effectively. Ever tried that? If you try to web two ships both will get away. Period. Also, the whole time you are webbing those two ships they are pounding you into sawdust. A Pilgrim can't split it's neuts either... they're only 12km range. It's also very easy for those ships to move out of range... or just attack the pilgrim from outside it's range... and it's very vulnerable to both drone and missiles. Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited to add: This will likely change with the speed nerf but even then they can always double up webbers for the same effect and still get 2 targets slowed compared to 1 with the Arazu/Lachesis. Have you even been on sisi? You're wrong. Currently on SISI two webs is LESS effective than 1 web is on Tranq... significantly less actually. Split webs? Hardly. Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Originally by: Taram Caldar 1 Arazu or 1 Lachesis, used properly, can damp up to 3 snipers to a point where they can't engage. This whole bit here is you proving you've never flown the damn things. If you think you can damp 3 targets down enough then you're obviously blissfully unaware that a single damp on a target is worthless. No, but I fly with pilots who do... Arazu does just fine.. Arazu for the 50km+ warp disruption & reduced targeting range on the target(s) and/or Falcon for the jams so we can close in to get points/webs/neuts on safely. Against 90% of targets we don't even need the falcon. If we don't have a falcon I love the arazu because he can get points from 60k away while I put webs on from 40k away, keeping both of us safe from almost any target we decide to tackle. We've taken MANY targets down with just the two of us... Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Originally by: Taram Caldar There's nothing wrong with the lach/arazu... except that people are trying to get it boosted to give it a HUGE advantage when using scramblers. No, I'd like it to be at least marginally useful against more than one enemy, which it currently isn't. It is. If you have two snipers sitting out at 150km targetting you 1 Arazu can make both of them worthless. Because all the sudden their lock range is 75km and they can't hit us unless they close the distance. Sure it's not going to completely shut down multiple targets but that's not what it does. The Arazu has 3 roles (whereas a Falcon only has 1).... 1) Long range tackle.... Arazu/Lach is the only ship in the game that can tackle as far as it does. This is it's PRIMARY role. At the same time it is immune from any response at that range against any single target... and often against multiple targets... till they close the range. 2) Sensor Dampening.... Against any single target the Arazu/Lach is VERY effective. Sure it's not going to completely incapacitate an enemy but no other ship besides the ECM birds comes close. 3) Damage... Arazu's put out pretty decent damage for a Force Recon... they outdamage both the Rapier and the Falcon.... The Rapier by a little the Falcon by a lot.... (Falcon also has no tank and is slow... Arazu can mount a tank or be nano'd) If you want to JAM your enemy then fly a falcon. If you want long range tackle with some significant ewar built in, fly a lach/arazu. Speed nerf is going to significantly boost the Arazu/Lach as well... harder to close with them to get under their damp range. .
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.14 00:16:00 - [50] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 14/08/2008 00:18:24 Note: I'm not against boosting the Arazu's Damp strength... But we need to make sure we keep it balanced. If you make it too good at dampening you eliminate the role of the Falcon/Rook. As I said... in small gangs that's often already the case... I will fly in a small gang with either an arazu or a falcon... and often I will prefer the arazu because it brings so much more to the table. (overheated warp disruptor to 70km anyone???) .

Solomon XI Hoist The Colors.	Posted - 2008.08.14 05:38:00 - [51] Friendly poke to thread. ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO)
Arana Tellen Gallente Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.08.14 06:00:00 - [52] My suggested ships: Arazu: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Role Bonus: 80% reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. Lachesis: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 5% bonus to Heavy Missile Launcher and Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire per level. TBH with a small damp bonus increase these ships become VERY nasty again. --------------------------------- Oh noes! Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Flawliss Gallente Pilots of True Potential	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:17:00 - [53] Edited by: Flawliss on 14/08/2008 08:18:14 OK i'll take a stab and putout my Ship bonus/Stats i'd like to see: Lachesis: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 10% Bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener range per level. 100m3 drone bay, 50MBit drone control Arazu: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Role Bonus: 200-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. My reasoning. This gives a bonus in effectiveness to both Boats, but gives the range bonus to the Non cloaking ship. This allows the Lachesis to operate at longer ranges, but still be counterable from long range or tackle since it is unable to cloak, forcing it to either stay on the field and deal with tackle or warp out, and thus relinquish its EWAR to the fight. It also removes the split bonus system (could always change the Hyrbid to missile if preferable) The arazu gets a Strength bonus to dampeners, but sacrifices the range bonus since it has the option to cloak and has the option of surprise, i thought this would be a better idea then sacrificeing its disrupt range, as it would lower its dual Ewar use, which i kinda like EDIT: Asfar as slots, which i forgot to discuss, i would like to see the Lach get better low slots even if you had to sack a mid, though i think sacking a Hi slot for a low would be a fair change aswell
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:25:00 - [54] Everyone keeps talking about 60km+ disruptor range with max skilled Arazus/Lachs. Just how many Arazu/Lach pilots fly around with one or more best in game faction disruptors fit on their ships? Damn few I'd imagine. In order for the Arazu to be as effective as a Falcon, it would have to damp a battleship down to 4-5km lock range with one damp, while doing so from 230km away in order to be somewhat comparable to the Falcon. Not that I'm advocating that the Arazu needs to be that powerful, it just demonstrates how broken Falcons are at the moment. The other day I fit a BS with 3x best named ECCM (Dominix, mids were point, injector, 3x Conjunctive Mag. ECCM) and was still jammed solid by a Falcon sitting at 235km from me. That's broken. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.08.14 08:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Flawliss Edited by: Flawliss on 14/08/2008 08:18:14 OK i'll take a stab and putout my Ship bonus/Stats i'd like to see: Lachesis: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and 10% Bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener range per level. 100m3 drone bay, 50MBit drone control Arazu: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to warp disruptor range and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Role Bonus: 200-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. My reasoning. This gives a bonus in effectiveness to both Boats, but gives the range bonus to the Non cloaking ship. This allows the Lachesis to operate at longer ranges, but still be counterable from long range or tackle since it is unable to cloak, forcing it to either stay on the field and deal with tackle or warp out, and thus relinquish its EWAR to the fight. It also removes the split bonus system (could always change the Hyrbid to missile if preferable) The arazu gets a Strength bonus to dampeners, but sacrifices the range bonus since it has the option to cloak and has the option of surprise, i thought this would be a better idea then sacrificeing its disrupt range, as it would lower its dual Ewar use, which i kinda like EDIT: Asfar as slots, which i forgot to discuss, i would like to see the Lach get better low slots even if you had to sack a mid, though i think sacking a Hi slot for a low would be a fair change aswell Removing the Lach's missile bonus? I don't think so. The answer here is to triple the damps base optimal range, dont' worry about optimal bonuses on Gallente recons, and buff the damp strength bonuses for the recons. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Solomon XI Hoist The Colors.	Posted - 2008.08.14 11:11:00 - [56] I agree. The main issue here is the overall dampening strength on the Arazu and Lachesis in comparison to the Celestis and other, non-specialized ships. The dedicated RSD Recons need a buff to dampening ability more than anything else. Otherwise, presently, they're fine as they are. Dampening just needs a 50%-75% boost to strength while fitted on the Recon ships. The Gallente ewAF and Black-Op's also need to have their RSD bonuses adjusted appropriately. So a boost to RSD optimal while fitted on a Recon plus an additional bonus to the strength of RSD's while fitted on a Recon would go a long way to making this ship viable in PvP once again. ~Solo Hoist The Colors. (CEO)
AshtarDJ Filthy Scum	Posted - 2008.08.14 14:23:00 - [57] I've been reading the posts on this thread because I'm very curious to know what's gonna happen to the gallente recons, but reading your posts I realizes that most (not all) of you are forgetting about 2 very important details: 1. The new scramber change will kick some life into the arazus/lache's making them VERY important. Specially in smaller gang engagements. That change alone I think will be enough for these ships. 2. Most of you are comparing the gallente recons with falcons and their ECM capabilities. One very important fact here is that the caldari recons only have 1 role, and because of that they get double bonuses for the same role (range and strength). The other 3 race's recons have 2 roles with bonuses for both. If you guys are so keen on getting more range or strength to your RSD's, you should consider giving up the scrambling/disrupting bonus then. Side note: After CCP nerfed ECM for all ships, ECM was pretty useless on ALL ships, including the caldari ECM boats (appart from the rook). Almost an year after that, CCP booster the ECM ships to what they are today (gave falcons the same bonuses as the rooks, and gave rooks an extra low for more DPS)
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2008.08.14 19:03:00 - [58] Originally by: AshtarDJ One very important fact here is that the caldari recons only have 1 role, and because of that they get double bonuses for the same role (range and strength). The other 3 race's recons have 2 roles with bonuses for both. If you guys are so keen on getting more range or strength to your RSD's, you should consider giving up the scrambling/disrupting bonus then. Well the phrase "Jack of all trades and master of none" springs to mind, so yes it might be a logical step to split bonus. Arazu gets damp bonus and Lache gets scram/disrupt bonus.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.14 20:57:00 - [59] Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 14/08/2008 21:03:32 Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 14/08/2008 21:03:00 Originally by: Taram Caldar ...If you have two snipers sitting out at 150km... Regarding the first bit, if you're solo then the rapier isn't for you but that's true of all recons. They can do solo work but they don't excel at it (nor do many ships really, Eve isn't a game that caters to solo pvp). Point is they can do their job (webbing) on multiple targets very well. Probably with sniper example above is that you can't reach anywhere close to 150km. So how are you going to do that without getting popped while trying to close the distance or expecting them to wait there while you slow boat cloaked over to them? Just isn't really viable. Lets put it this way, if they had the range to do that @ 150km, they'd be very useful for exactly that but they don't because they need to get into range. So either the damps need to be more effective or have longer range so that you can hit people far enough away that the damp is useful. Edited to add: So the basic problem is that at the range that you can damp people at, people who are fighting you in that range aren't going to have any issues targeting you with one damp on them. You need all three to make them not able to attack you. The sniper thing is pointless because its useless at doing that, the range isn't long enough to hit snipers. So unless you're against solo people where you can dedicate all your damps to one target they aren't useful at all. Even with the scramming boost they're not incredibly useful since even with the bonus scramming range isn't very far (with faction stuff you're talking bubble distance, making it a very expensive tackler).
Malena Panic Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.08.15 02:39:00 - [60] Originally by: AshtarDJ 1. The new scramber change will kick some life into the arazus/lache's making them VERY important. The thread is only two pages long, man, try to keep up :D An Arazu or Lachesis inside 20km is a dead Arazu or Lachesis. It can't defend itself, can't tank, can't maneuver quickly and can't trade DPS. Nobody's going to want to fly a ship that turns off one MWD at the start of the engagement and then dies. I mean it looks all exciting and potent but it's not, really. ...

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