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Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
215
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Posted - 2012.03.21 17:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everyone. As a recent entry into market-dabbling and an economics minor, I've noticed something that is lacking in the current market system: the ability to "price discriminate". Specifically, the ability to price discrimination in the third degree: by identity of the person buying the good. Allow me to explain how this could possibly benefit the game at large.
I have been in Faction Warfare and its space for a cumulative year or so, and have also lived in 0.0 (mostly NPC, though some sov whiel Sodalitas XX was still around). These areas tend to lack certain goods because of high demand (ships, especially, since they're always being blown up!), or if they are available are at incredibly high prices (I saw Rifters for one million ISK in Stain). As not only a producer selling Thrashers in FW space, but also as a member of the Minmatar militia, I would certainly like to be able to charge very fair prices and get a one-up on competitors while also supporting my militia. The issue here is when the enemy militia buys up my goods. Certainly, I am gaining ISK and this is a voluntary transaction, but as the producer I value the enemy lacking ships to fight with at a higher level than the one million ISK I gain from selling the war target a Thrasher. It would be disastrous if the enemy militia decided to clear market and buy up all the ships I'm selling and use them against me and my friends later I imagine this issue also crops up in "freeported" 0.0: a gang red to the station-holders could theoretically dock up, buy ships and their respective fits in the station, and undock in ships able to take down the very people producing and selling the ships in the first place. So what I propose is this: a skill that lets you permit standings-based markups on one sell order per level, up to a maximum of 1000% of base sale price.
------------------------- Strategic Pricing:
Proficiency at making price markups based on the reputation of the buyer. Allows the standings-based modification of one sell order's price based on standings per level, up to a markup of 1000% base price -------------------------
Of course later skills could be implemented as "Advanced" versions so people with Tycoon trained could possibly markup most or all of their sell orders
Thoughts? |
Blatant Forum Alt
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2012.03.21 17:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pointless. No one who produces goods on a large scale would do this, as it decreases their profit margins. There is a hard limit to how low the price goes, as no one is going to want to sell stuff below mineral value, so the actual benefit from this is minimal at best. There is also nothing to stop a fellow FW or corp member buying up your cheap stuff and melting it all down for a profit, plus having a variable sell price will completely screw with peoples trading spreadsheets... in short, no real gain, all it will do is cause headaches and misery. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
215
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Posted - 2012.03.21 17:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:Pointless. No one who produces goods on a large scale would do this, as it decreases their profit margins. There is a hard limit to how low the price goes, as no one is going to want to sell stuff below mineral value, so the actual benefit from this is minimal at best. There is also nothing to stop a fellow FW or corp member buying up your cheap stuff and melting it all down for a profit, plus having a variable sell price will completely screw with peoples trading spreadsheets... in short, no real gain, all it will do is cause headaches and misery.
It would help the start-up industrialist, however. For example, just now all of my Thrashers were cleared in a certain market that was lacking them, and have been put back up on the market at a higher price. While I do appreciate the ISK, I also want to offer these ships at a fair cost that is well below regional average price to build up a good reputation. So why shouldn't I be allowed to go into my Transactions, see who is buying me out, and set them red to mark up the prices to them to prevent me being bought out? Certainly, a fellow FW or corp member could try to buy me out, but a further parameter in the skill could be personal standings. As the issuer of the sell order I should be allowed to use my own personal standings list to determine the markup, and if a supposed friendly is trying to screw me over I should be allowed to set them red on my personal standings list to keep them from doing so. The EVE Market as it is now is far too limited in options. In the real world, a firm can choose to sell capital to certain other firms while declining the sale to others (all as the selling firm sees in their best interests). In the EVE world, you simply throw up a sale order and it can be taken by anyone. The contracting system is limited too, as you cannot base those on standings either.
In short, allow sellers to choose who they sell to without having to make a contract each and every single time. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
128
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Posted - 2012.03.21 18:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
I really like this idea. No one wants to sell goods to their enemy OR their industrial competitors.
While hard to implement, I think this is the groundings of an interesting new game play concept. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
66
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Posted - 2012.03.21 20:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
This would definitely add a new dimension to market PvP. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
347
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Posted - 2012.03.21 20:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nice idea, currently I sell ships via alliance contracts for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Being able to seed market, and simultaneously provide slight mark ups for alliance members whilst ripping off reds/neuts would be awesome.
And to the guy who claims no one would use it, and goes on about selling below mineral costs, I don't think you quite understood the proposal. -áhttp://i.imgur.com/aWNfM.jpg |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
108
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Posted - 2012.03.21 20:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Anything that improves market dynamics is a plus to me. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window! |
Bai'xao Meiyi
Aurea Litai Industries
3
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Posted - 2012.03.22 13:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
*Le Bump!* Awesome idea, Id love this to happen
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10410
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Posted - 2012.03.22 16:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
I personally love this idea, and you can bet that it would be copiously abused during null sec territorial wars; though, I think a better implementation could simply be to modify the existing market interface and functionality rather than making it skill dependent. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Tidurious
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
193
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Posted - 2012.03.22 19:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
A much better idea would be to show names attached to each buy and sell order. Just a new column that reads "Seller" or "Buyer", or even more generic - "Placed By"
There, go market PvP to your heart's content
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Leto Aramaus
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
37
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Posted - 2012.03.22 19:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tidurious wrote:A much better idea would be to show names attached to each buy and sell order. Just a new column that reads "Seller" or "Buyer", or even more generic - "Placed By"
There, go market PvP to your heart's content
This should also be done, but its not a "much better idea" than the OP.
OP's idea should definitely be done. Guy who writes "pointless" is just wrong.
the OP clearly stated the "point"... to allow marketeers to not supply their enemies, or at least ridiculously overcharge them, both awesome ideas. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
352
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 20:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tidurious wrote:A much better idea would be to show names attached to each buy and sell order. Just a new column that reads "Seller" or "Buyer", or even more generic - "Placed By"
There, go market PvP to your heart's content
That allows you to not buy from a red, assuming you go to the effort of looking them up or they aren't using a market alt, but it doesn't allow you to automatically charge more for neuts/reds. And it doesn't stop reds buying all your stock. -áhttp://i.imgur.com/aWNfM.jpg |
Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
154
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Posted - 2012.03.22 20:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Leto Aramaus wrote:Tidurious wrote:A much better idea would be to show names attached to each buy and sell order. Just a new column that reads "Seller" or "Buyer", or even more generic - "Placed By"
There, go market PvP to your heart's content
This should also be done, but its not a "much better idea" than the OP. OP's idea should definitely be done. Guy who writes "pointless" is just wrong. the OP clearly stated the "point"... to allow marketeers to not supply their enemies, or at least ridiculously overcharge them, both awesome ideas. seller and buyer woudl be terrible to add, then all you ahve to do is look on amrket every few daysa dn see common occuring anmes in the expensive item-lists adn just camp jita with tornados for those players.
like lets say jimmy sells technetium, you implement this... now every day you check amrket and see enw roders from jimmy selling his tech, you realize that jimmy must haul tech into jita everyday, now all you have to do is camp jita until you see jimmy enter grid, and is now dead. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
221
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Posted - 2012.03.22 20:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
As it stands now you can already find out the owner of a buy/sell order by selling/buying one unit of the good and going to your Transactions journal. While it would be nice to see the owners in a new column in the Market details, what I am proposing is far larger in scope. I want sellers to be able to determine who they want to sell t. Of course the flip side of this is buyers who are set red will receive advance warning of the hiked-up price before they press the "Buy" button, which would help alert them to when they're being set red by competitors. In short, I want the market to be more transparent. If I am a company selling goods and you're a competing or enemy company I SHOULD be able to deny sales to you. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
253
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Posted - 2012.03.22 20:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think this would be an interesting addtion to placing buy/sell orders.
Unfortunately, I don't know how easily standings can be brought into the market system. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1163
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 21:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
It's all fine and good until the Goons use such a system to wreck the market for everyone.
No, too exploitable. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
223
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Posted - 2012.03.22 21:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
How would the Goons "wreck the market"? Set everyone else red and never sell a single thing again? Great! That means others can swoop in and make a tidy profit off the resulting spike in demand. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
352
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 21:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:It's all fine and good until the Goons use such a system to wreck the market for everyone.
No, too exploitable. How, exactly?
Unless you convince everyone in Eve to set negative standings on a group, and they don't have any alts, you aren't really going to achieve much. Set higher prices for all neutrals in empire... People can just undercut you :/ -áhttp://i.imgur.com/aWNfM.jpg |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10418
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Posted - 2012.03.22 21:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rek Jaiga wrote:How would the Goons "wreck the market"? Set everyone else red and never sell a single thing again? Great! That means others can swoop in and make a tidy profit off the resulting spike in demand. We wouldn't do this in Jita. We would buy out the entirety of a null sec market with a neutral alt, or a spy in a blue corp, and then we would in the same sell order offer goods to goons to cheaply resupply (Jita +10%) while gouging the local inhabitants (Jita+170%) enough that it hurts them without making them flat-out refuse to buy it.
e: I should emphasize that Jita+10% is pretty par for the course and considered a "good deal" in null sec markets, since it's somewhat dangerous to ship things in for oneself unless one has a jump freighter and a cyno alt, and that Jita+50% is not at all uncommon even in well-regulated hubs like VFK-IV. The simple fact of the matter is that a line grunt isn't going to make a trek to Jita and back to pick up a new ship and fittings when it's time for an op; he's going to buy what's on the local market, even if it's at horribly marked up prices. Sky Captain of Your Heart Vote Lyris Nairn for CSM8 |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
227
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 23:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote: We wouldn't do this in Jita. We would buy out the entirety of a null sec market with a neutral alt, or a spy in a blue corp, and then we would in the same sell order offer goods to goons to cheaply resupply (Jita +10%) while gouging the local inhabitants (Jita+170%) enough that it hurts them without making them flat-out refuse to buy it.
Which is entirely fair and realistic! Such things can happen in a real-life market, and such tactics are countered with further tactics. I want to see market PvP be just that: brutal, EVE-style PvP where wits and skill will be your saviour.
Appeals to pathos aside, locals should still be paranoid enough to use the contract system to ensure at least an adequate supply of goods. Additionally, if you did make this entire system skill-based as I originally proposed you wouldn't be able to use a throwaway alt to perform such a maneuver, and once you've used your trained alt just a single time the savvy alliance will red them as well to keep it from happening again. In fact, if I were sitting in a station and saw a so-called neutral dock up and then bump up prices to Jita+170% I would immediately conclude they're a market-flip alt and red them. |
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Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 02:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
The more I think about this idea the more I like it. I like the OP's vision best. It needs to be far more dynamic then some extra info in the market screen.
Although I also agree with what someone else said. It doesn't need to be a skill, it should just be part of how the market works. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Undistinguished Gray Suit
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.23 02:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
A simpler solution that would achieve most of the OPs goal would be to simply add corporation and alliance market tabs. You wouldn't be able to list the same thing for different prices, but you could list one stack on your corp market at a reduced rate and another on the public market at a higher rate. Perhaps people involved in faction war could have a separate faction market.
Of course, this doesn't fix the spy problem Lyris raised, but nothing really will without making funamental and game wrecking changes to EVE. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
231
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 02:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
That would also work, Gray Suit. You are correct though: nothing will ever solve the issue of neutral alts wrecking havoc and getting around certain mechanics. That's just a part of EVE, and one reason I enjoy living in low and null sec so much.
Share this thread with your friends! I hope we can get a lot of discusssion from the player base at large and refine this concept. Maybe CCP will take notice? |
Potato Jim
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.03.23 11:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
to the OP
What stops me, your enemy, from creating an alt and getting him into your militia, and buying all your cheap stuff.
what stops me, your good old friend in the militia(not an alt of your enemy) to buy out all your cheap stuff and melt it, either myself or with my alt.
you *assume* that everyone blue to you is your friend. it might be the "general" case, but that makes spies even more uber dangerous.
an alliance has a stockpile of ready-to-use cheap mods and fits for anyone with standing 10. all the spy has to do is get comfy enough and get that standing, BAM, you clean up ALL the market orders, make a HUGE markup profit to fund your ongoing(or future to-be) war.
So now you need roles - the ability to buy from market orders done by your corp. and to limit the amounts of transactions you can do at a cheap price. either limited by volume of isk or items.
for example- you might want to sell only to individual users, not to bulk buyers - so you can now think about limiting the amount a pilot can buy to 4 per day(that's a HUGE hassle, impractical and broken).
this is all fun and games on the meta level of jita, but on smaller alliances/corporation wars it can be a mess. The amount of micro-manage on said orders would have to be insane to make sure no one "accidently" gets the standing to do so.
And again to the OP - you're playing the market game all wrong, the enemy keeps buying all your stock? good, dump loads and loads of ships into said station with various alts at various prices, you MUST BE ABOVE MINERAL PRICE, or anyone and i mean anyone would just buy and melt it. if the enemy wants to drive your ship prices over 50% of their regional average, that's fine. you're still making money. it would be much simpler to just give isk to the people who buy ONE thrasher from your alliance at the inflated price as compensation. when your enemy is stuck with 1000 overpriced ships he can't sell, you won the market pvp.
*unless you think all your militia members are one big happy family - in which case. meh.* |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
234
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 13:56:00 -
[25] - Quote
Again, the issue of alts and spies is brought. As I sit here and watch the Fanfest stream, it's become clear to me that CCP is abundantly aware of alts/spies and how they can be used to bypass mechanics. The simple answer is: there is nothing anyone can do to counter alts or spies. As I mentioned with alts, I'd observe their flipping and set them red. I'm the sort of player that actually uses the "notes" section of the "Show Info" window, and I WILL know it's a market-flipping alt. Same goes with spies or inter-alliance/militia competition.
And that's why I think this should be a skill-based thing. Have prereqs so that it takes longer than two weeks to acquire this skill. Then you can no longer use a throw-away trial account alt to screw over the market. In other words you force someone to spend time and real-life money or ISK for PLEX just to undercut you (which would discourage the activities you mentioned because it would lower their profits considerably! Imagine shelling out $14.95 or ISK for a PLEX every time you need to make a market-flipping alt)
"How do you promote trust, especially in a sandbox known for players stabbing each other in the back?" |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
234
|
Posted - 2012.03.23 14:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
And I've no clue why you keep rambling about selling above mineral price. I am doing so. So stop bringing that up.
I do not think you understand the proposal. We should be allowed to deny sales to certain individuals or entities as we see fit. As it currently stands, you just throw something up on the market and only find out who's buying from you after the fact. Let us use the anecdote of a lemonade stand. If I am selling cups of lemonade for $1.00 and you buy five units, I gain by $5.00. Excellent, great. But say I only had five units to begin with, so I'm now out of stock. Next you set up your own stand and resell at $1.50. You suddenly profit by $2.50, and you weren't the producer of the product! Now, this is a smart move on your part. However, now that I have observed this activity I would logically no longer sell to you so I can secure my place in the market.
In EVE, you can't do that. You cannot choose who to sell to, or rather you can't decline a sale to a competitor/enemy. |
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
240
|
Posted - 2012.04.08 19:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
A bit of an update. I warned about the behaviour that would result if industrialists and traders aren't allowed to price discriminate or choose who to sell to.
And it is happening.
The Rens "trader" known as Miilla has been toying around with prices of all sorts of items for ages now, able to manipulate prices at will. I watched as she toyed with Maelstrom prices yesterday, on a whim. Why is she able to do this? Simple: she can buy competitors out because they cannot deny sale to her.
I do hope CCP notices how bad this can be for the economy and lets us have some discretion in who we sell to. If the problems persists I could simply see people turning to word-of-mouth trading or bartering. Gone will be the days when we can trust the market system at all, and instead the industrialist who builds, say, a Maelstrom will ship it to Rens and sit in local saying "Selling Maelstrom for X" and wait for a buyer (because if a public contract is made they can still be bought out).
PLEASE implement a way for us to deny sales to our competitors and enemies! If one person wants to crash the market system the rest of the market participants should simply be allowed to ignore them and cut off all business ties. |
Bai'xao Meiyi
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 13:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Today the Rens manipulator miilla bumped Hurricane prices up to 65 million isk. She has also manipulated the drake, stabber, tornado and hulk prices. Again, this is a needed feature for a free and fluid market. This is a common sense solution to the problem of total market control of the ridiculously rich. |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1469
|
Posted - 2012.04.09 16:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bai'xao Meiyi wrote:Today the Rens manipulator miilla bumped Hurricane prices up to 65 million isk. She has also manipulated the drake, stabber, tornado and hulk prices. Again, this is a needed feature for a free and fluid market. This is a common sense solution to the problem of total market control of the ridiculously rich. i can confirm this. he even admitted it in local. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
100
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Posted - 2012.04.09 16:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sounds like a good week to ship 'canes to Rens for a profit, but I still like the OP. |
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