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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Propmod
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2012.03.22 01:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Would your sentries target someone who came in and stole from one of your wrecks? It'd be a great way for someone to get aggression on you if it can work that way |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
615
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Posted - 2012.03.22 01:45:00 -
[62] - Quote
Propmod wrote:Would your sentries target someone who came in and stole from one of your wrecks? It'd be a great way for someone to get aggression on you if it can work that way No, drones are smart enough to not do that now, unless something was messed up in 1.5. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
400
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 02:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
Postradamus wrote:
I totally agree. But the GMs are supposed to have EVIDENCE before the ban is handed down. I KNOW these guys aren't using macros. The whole point was to NOT use macros!
No, they don't need evidence. Maybe they should but they don't need it to ban somebody.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Lady Naween
Good Vs. Neutral Stop Exploding You Cowards
4
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Posted - 2012.03.22 02:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Propmod wrote:Would your sentries target someone who came in and stole from one of your wrecks? It'd be a great way for someone to get aggression on you if it can work that way No, drones are smart enough to not do that now, unless something was messed up in 1.5.
nope no change in 1.5. already tested
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
888
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 02:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sirinda wrote:If - IF - that happened exactly the way you described it, I can't see a ToS violation.
There is no ToS violation if it's exactly what happened. Simplistic or broken game rules/mechanics leads to this kind of silly situation: yes you can but no you can't
Take a ride to trade hubs like Jita undock and watch all the exploits being done by the same char/corps and are completely ignored. |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 09:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
the important question to answer here that so far has been ignored completelly:
Has any character previously had received warnings for previous actions or has been temporarely banned in the past?
If so, then you should have walked a fine line since then..... |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
122
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Posted - 2012.03.22 10:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
I am wondering how long you, i mean 'your brother and his friend' were doing this for?
I would hazard a guess that 'they' were leaving this setup running over night, every night or something like that. In which case, if I was CCP, I would ban you. oops, I mean 'your brother and his friend'.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
JeanMichel Bizarre
Natural Progression
22
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Posted - 2012.03.22 10:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote:I am wondering how long you, i mean 'your brother and his friend' were doing this for?
I would hazard a guess that 'they' were leaving this setup running over night, every night or something like that. In which case, if I was CCP, I would ban you. oops, I mean 'your brother and his friend'.
Why? It's not against any rules? omniscient omnipotent omnipresent without judgement |
Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 10:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
One big clue in this would be, how long did they run this for and where they by the computer all that time doing other stuff. Like looking at the market, or chatting with other people ingame.
Now I don't know how long they did this, or what other activity they did. But if they did this in, for excample, 12 - 16 hours, and nothing else. Then I can see this as a violation. They gain something and don't need to play actively.
If this was the first and only offence, then a straight up ban might be a bit harsh, a warning is usually more common. thought they might have gotten it, where not home and thus did not reply, and as a result got a ban. |
Katrina D'Neese
First Star Industries Rolling Thunder.
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 10:34:00 -
[70] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Postradamus wrote:Henry Haphorn wrote:Mai Khumm wrote:I don't see how this is a banable offense...
You either indirectly pissed off a dev or 2. Or someone reported you and thought you were macroing. This might be the case. After all, leaving a ship to RR sentries sitting there killing any npc rat that comes along will seem like automation to those passing by the belts. I totally agree. But the GMs are supposed to have EVIDENCE before the ban is handed down. I KNOW these guys aren't using macros. The whole point was to NOT use macros! Either this was a lazy GM, or there is a policy that is not being articulated. If it's the latter, all I'm asking for is a clear ruling. If it's the former, I'd like my mates' bans overturned. Or the GM does not believe you and/or you are leaving something out
THIS, as has already been said on here that its a 3 times and you're out affair so they either brought the accounts with strikes on them which is also a bannable offence or you're friends never did tell you about the ones they already had. Either way I think there is more to this story than OP leads on but CCP aren't going to discuss it so we'll never know |
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Prince Kobol
255
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Posted - 2012.03.22 10:45:00 -
[71] - Quote
Herold Oldtimer wrote:One big clue in this would be, how long did they run this for and where they by the computer all that time doing other stuff. Like looking at the market, or chatting with other people ingame.
Now I don't know how long they did this, or what other activity they did. But if they did this in, for excample, 12 - 16 hours, and nothing else. Then I can see this as a violation. They gain something and don't need to play actively.
If this was the first and only offence, then a straight up ban might be a bit harsh, a warning is usually more common. thought they might have gotten it, where not home and thus did not reply, and as a result got a ban.
What does the length of time they were doing it for matter?
The act of killing NPC's with drones whilst repping them is either allowed or not.
You can not say yeah its fine so log as you only do it for a few hours a day.
As for whether they had any previous infractions on their account, again this does not matter if what they were doing was not an exploit.
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Prince Kobol
255
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 10:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:the important question to answer here that so far has been ignored completelly:
Has any character previously had received warnings for previous actions or has been temporarely banned in the past?
If so, then you should have walked a fine line since then.....
This is only of any relevance if the act of sitting in space killing NPC's with your drones whilst repping them is deemed to be an exploit. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
561
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 10:49:00 -
[73] - Quote
GMs in any game have the authority to ban you for being overly rude to the GM staff, just like and customer service position is allowed to end communication with you for verbal attacks on their person, and CCP GMs are not very heavily policed by the company, so i would expect the petition challenging the banning was of the insulting and obscene variety, which resulted in the GMs closing it out as 'We don't need more of that in EVE anyway'.
Be polite, and do your best to work with them, and they are likely to look for ways to use policy to cut you some slack, but if you are a prick about it, expect them to block every effort you make.
As the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 10:54:00 -
[74] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Herold Oldtimer wrote:One big clue in this would be, how long did they run this for and where they by the computer all that time doing other stuff. Like looking at the market, or chatting with other people ingame.
Now I don't know how long they did this, or what other activity they did. But if they did this in, for excample, 12 - 16 hours, and nothing else. Then I can see this as a violation. They gain something and don't need to play actively.
If this was the first and only offence, then a straight up ban might be a bit harsh, a warning is usually more common. thought they might have gotten it, where not home and thus did not reply, and as a result got a ban. What does the length of time they were doing it for matter? The act of killing NPC's with drones whilst repping them is either allowed or not. You can not say yeah its fine so log as you only do it for a few hours a day. As for whether they had any previous infractions on their account, again this does not matter if what they were doing was not an exploit.
Because that is what the gm's usually have to go on in cases sutch as this. How long did they do it? And what other activity did they do during that time?
If that was the only thing that was being done for I don't know how long, then yes, I can see this as a violation. A bannable? No. But again, it might be that they did get a warning, werent home, and thus got sactioned for it accordingly. It is the same issue with botters.
Is botting fine? |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
91
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 11:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
Plainly not automation.
Game mechanics should not allow for this tactic to be used to passively generate income though. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
889
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 11:55:00 -
[76] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:What does the length of time they were doing it for matter?
Let me put it this way:
From how many dead people can we consider someone a murderer? -1? -10? -100 When you start not liking someone? Just because you woke up in the morning with bad mood? Maybe just because it's your monthly bad moment?
So, where and when or from witch point something is considered game exploit, and who can or can not a single moment consider that even if you're doing it right well you are still doing it wrong.
Chaos methods can't work RL and can't work neither in a game, whatever you will ever do to try to keep those methods functioning, will invariably lead to it's end, it's just a matter of time but it always leads to radical solutions.
Learning skills and Tiericide are just 2 examples that would in any given time without prevent and for whatever reason lead to their own end just because they have no sense, they brought a whole lot of problems impossible to regulate/solve in a decent way, and that is what chaos is about, non sense rules non sense mechanics non sense laws that always finish quite badly.
Edit: now, another step of that chaos methods is also over ruling everything leading to something that whatever you do you always infringe some rule, and the only one capable to figure out when is...? |
Prince Kobol
255
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 12:01:00 -
[77] - Quote
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
Because that is what the gm's usually have to go on in cases sutch as this. How long did they do it? And what other activity did they do during that time?
If that was the only thing that was being done for I don't know how long, then yes, I can see this as a violation. A bannable? No. But again, it might be that they did get a warning, werent home, and thus got sactioned for it accordingly. It is the same issue with botters.
Is botting fine?
No it isn't, you are confusing 2 different issues here.
What the OP has described does not require any automation of any kind. It is simply using existing game mechanics.
You can not compare something which requires no automation or input from the player past the initial launching of drones and reppers to something which does require constant input from a player like mining or missioning which are what bots are used for.
So again saying something only becomes an exploit because you have been doing after x amount time is just plain wrong.
Whether you should be able to do something this is a separate argument, the fact is you can and many people do in missions.
Unless CCP has stated that using drones to kill NPC's whilst having a stable tank and ability to RR your drones is a exploit, there they have done nothing wrong.
Now if its a case of a GM has repeatedly tried to convo them and has received no reply and has then presumed they must be using some sort of automation tool then that just shows an alarming lack of in game knowledge on behalf of the GM.
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gfldex
390
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 12:01:00 -
[78] - Quote
Arec Bardwin wrote:I saw variations on this years ago in certain COSMOS plexes. Does this mean leaving a Domi afk in a mission room is a bannable offense now?
If you do it from DT to DT. (That's my guess why the ban happened.) The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Sanphesta
Stargazer Exploration Company Transmission Lost
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 12:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
Lady Spank wrote:Perhaps if CCP do not want people to be able to make ISK passively in this manner then they should code their game correctly rather than claiming that non-activity = automation.
By this logic anyone logged in and doing nothing is also using automation, which is clearly a stupid conclusion.
/walks in- finds the thread funny, but not quite funny enough...
Points out that afk cloakys are also logged in and not doing anything
There, that should help a bit
fake edit to point out that even if this was done dt to dt- its still not automation. it is not playing, granted, but its using the ingame (long) existing mechanics in a way they are intended to be used (and if you dont like it ccp then change the code)
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Xpaulusx
V I R I I Ineluctable.
25
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 12:39:00 -
[80] - Quote
Postradamus wrote:My brother and a friend were banned a few days ago. The explanatory mail accused them of "Macroing".
They weren't macroing.
Here's what they were actually doing:
1. Find area in HIGHSEC where rats spawn 2. Turn on local tank 3. Launch a few sentry drones 4. Target each drone and apply remote reps to drones 5. Sit back and watch as wave after wave of rats attack the ship and/or the drones, and are blown up
As you can clearly see, this setup requires NO CLICKING OF ANY KIND, much less automated clicking.
Both players asked for an in-depth explanation of their bans, and received identical copypasta responses claiming that GMs had investigated and found evidence of "automation", and stating that further petitions would be ignored.
YOU'D THINK LAUNCHING SENTRY DRONES AND REMOTE REPAIRING THEM IS OK, but I guess I need to get a Dev ruling on the acceptability of this practice.
(If any dev actually reads this, please PM me with some advice on how I can help my associates get un-banned.)
If this is true, this litterly opens up a can of worms, there are perhaps hundreds if not thousands of players, that afk their Rattlesnakes in missions plexs,anoms etc while there drones do the work, are they at risk of being banned now because of a possible mis-interpitation by a GM? Umm CCP you better clarify how you draw your conclusions
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Ghoest
278
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 12:49:00 -
[81] - Quote
Generally I dont believe "we were banned" posters.
But I do know about the CCP staff and this is exactly the type of stupidity I expect from them. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Herold Oldtimer
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
46
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 12:58:00 -
[82] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:No it isn't, you are confusing 2 different issues here.
What the OP has described does not require any automation of any kind. It is simply using existing game mechanics.
You can not compare something which requires no automation or input from the player past the initial launching of drones and reppers to something which does require constant input from a player like mining or missioning which are what bots are used for.
So again saying something only becomes an exploit because you have been doing after x amount time is just plain wrong.
Whether you should be able to do something this is a separate argument, the fact is you can and many people do in missions.
Unless CCP has stated that using drones to kill NPC's whilst having a stable tank and ability to RR your drones is a exploit, there they have done nothing wrong.
Now if its a case of a GM has repeatedly tried to convo them and has received no reply and has then presumed they must be using some sort of automation tool then that just shows an alarming lack of in game knowledge on behalf of the GM.
I'm not confusing anything since I don't have anything to confuse this with. I'm going by assumtion that they did this for far longer than what is "normal" and including a supposed scenario where they are not at their computer either.
They are then generating income by not doing anything. The game is doing it for them. Same as with bots. The player is not doing anything himself, but are having a program do it for him.
If they did other stuff aswell. Like checking market for stuff to buy or to sell, chatting with others ingame, or using the ingame browser while it is going on in the background then it is fine, they are leaving proof that the activity with the ratting is not the only thing that is going on. They are playing.
If they sert this up, then let this go for a whole day, then it is beginning to become a problem. They are not playing but are still generating income.
Cloaks are different because you are not generating any income then.
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Xpaulusx
V I R I I Ineluctable.
25
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 13:04:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'm not to get overly critical of CCP, in general they have put the game in the right direction but with incidents like this, it puts doubt into alot of minds as to what the ground rules are, therefore the need for clarification. same sitiuation with the triple webbing of freighters which up till now, there was no problem and was an accepted game mechanic. Closing the barn door after the horses left |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 14:06:00 -
[84] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:the important question to answer here that so far has been ignored completelly:
Has any character previously had received warnings for previous actions or has been temporarely banned in the past?
If so, then you should have walked a fine line since then..... This is only of any relevance if the act of sitting in space killing NPC's with your drones whilst repping them is deemed to be an exploit.
to answer your question. well it does matter if you can do this endlessly without any effort. Its basically a loop hole! a loop hole is an exploit and its no different from the recent web exploit.
you cant just make endless isk without doing anything whats so ever. Imagine if there was no down time....you could do this for months. Its wrong! If you moved around and salvagd mean while then its great cos you are actually doing something. Its the same like mining and jetting into can. You are doing something. - This part is crutial.
if you had previously had a warning, then do the above its just inviting a ban cos you went from a warning to a loop hole...i do expect you should get banned. Dont try to pass this loop hole as JUST remote repping! Cos its not |
OmniBeton
OmniBeton Metatech
5
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Posted - 2012.03.22 14:38:00 -
[85] - Quote
Herold Oldtimer wrote: They are then generating income by not doing anything. The game is doing it for them. Same as with bots. The player is not doing anything himself, but are having a program do it for him.
LOL ...
Buy tons of any item, cheap. Set up 1-month sell order with attractive, yet higher that you bought for, price. Log out and wait a month. You are not playing. You are doing nothing. Game is making isk for you. Return after a month. Get banned ? Don't think so.
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Signal11th
439
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Posted - 2012.03.22 14:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:the important question to answer here that so far has been ignored completelly:
Has any character previously had received warnings for previous actions or has been temporarely banned in the past?
If so, then you should have walked a fine line since then..... This is only of any relevance if the act of sitting in space killing NPC's with your drones whilst repping them is deemed to be an exploit. to answer your question. well it does matter if you can do this endlessly without any effort. Its basically a loop hole! a loop hole is an exploit and its no different from the recent web exploit. you cant just make endless isk without doing anything whats so ever. Imagine if there was no down time....you could do this for months. Its wrong! If you moved around and salvagd mean while then its great cos you are actually doing something. Its the same like mining and jetting into can. You are doing something. - This part is crutial. if you had previously had a warning, then do the above its just inviting a ban cos you went from a warning to a loop hole...i do expect you should get banned. Dont try to pass this loop hole as JUST remote repping! Cos its not
Personally I don;t see the problem? Yet again (OB if the OP is being honest) it's just another example of someone thinking outside the box and getting screwed for it. Imagine what EVE would really be like if nobody ever tried to do something different. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Prince Kobol
255
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 14:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
Herold Oldtimer wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:No it isn't, you are confusing 2 different issues here.
What the OP has described does not require any automation of any kind. It is simply using existing game mechanics.
You can not compare something which requires no automation or input from the player past the initial launching of drones and reppers to something which does require constant input from a player like mining or missioning which are what bots are used for.
So again saying something only becomes an exploit because you have been doing after x amount time is just plain wrong.
Whether you should be able to do something this is a separate argument, the fact is you can and many people do in missions.
Unless CCP has stated that using drones to kill NPC's whilst having a stable tank and ability to RR your drones is a exploit, there they have done nothing wrong.
Now if its a case of a GM has repeatedly tried to convo them and has received no reply and has then presumed they must be using some sort of automation tool then that just shows an alarming lack of in game knowledge on behalf of the GM.
I'm not confusing anything since I don't have anything to confuse this with. I'm going by assumtion that they did this for far longer than what is "normal" and including a supposed scenario where they are not at their computer either. They are then generating income by not doing anything. The game is doing it for them. Same as with bots. The player is not doing anything himself, but are having a program do it for him. If they did other stuff aswell. Like checking market for stuff to buy or to sell, chatting with others ingame, or using the ingame browser while it is going on in the background then it is fine, they are leaving proof that the activity with the ratting is not the only thing that is going on. They are playing. If they sert this up, then let this go for a whole day, then it is beginning to become a problem. They are not playing but are still generating income. Cloaks are different because you are not generating any income then.
You are because a bot replicates human actions, in the OP's case no actions are being replicated because no action is required, there for nothing like a bot.
I am not saying that this is a good game mechanic or that it does not need changing but the fact is that for years people have been doing the exactly same thing with missions and there has never been an issue.
You can not allow people to use this method during missions but then ban them for using the same game mechanic killing NPC's |
Prince Kobol
255
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 14:45:00 -
[88] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Andrea Roche wrote:the important question to answer here that so far has been ignored completelly:
Has any character previously had received warnings for previous actions or has been temporarely banned in the past?
If so, then you should have walked a fine line since then..... This is only of any relevance if the act of sitting in space killing NPC's with your drones whilst repping them is deemed to be an exploit. to answer your question. well it does matter if you can do this endlessly without any effort. Its basically a loop hole! a loop hole is an exploit and its no different from the recent web exploit. you cant just make endless isk without doing anything whats so ever. Imagine if there was no down time....you could do this for months. Its wrong! If you moved around and salvagd mean while then its great cos you are actually doing something. Its the same like mining and jetting into can. You are doing something. - This part is crutial. if you had previously had a warning, then do the above its just inviting a ban cos you went from a warning to a loop hole...i do expect you should get banned. Dont try to pass this loop hole as JUST remote repping! Cos its not
Where does it say anywhere in the EULA/TOS that you can not make is passively?
Over the last couple of month due to RL I have only been able to log into the game to update my skills and that is it and yet I have made hundreds of millions of isk, why, because I set multiple sell orders.
Should I be banned because I made my isk when I was sitting in front of my PC for hours on end?
This is not a loop hole, its a game mechanic, unless you are saying that all those mission runners should also be banned for doing the very same thing
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Postradamus
Asstronauts
14
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Posted - 2012.03.22 14:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
5 pages, 1 email to CCP internal affairs, 1 PM to CCP Guard, no response of any kind |
OfBalance
Caldari State
208
|
Posted - 2012.03.22 15:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
OmniBeton wrote: LOL ...
Buy tons of any item, cheap. Set up 1-month sell order with attractive, yet higher that you bought for, price. Log out and wait a month. You are not playing. You are doing nothing. Game is making isk for you. Return after a month. Get banned ? Don't think so.
LOL ...
Buy tons of any item, without a clue. Set up 1-month sell order instead of 3 because lol :smug: Log out and wait a month. Someone else lists the same items 0.01 isk lower than your order. You are not playing. You are doing nothing. You are not making isk. No return after a month. Get bent? Yes.
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