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Sermon on the Horrors of Heresy Part 1

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RhajKa	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:04:00 - [1] 1
RhajKa	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:10:00 - [2] Today, the largest body of the faithful of God is under siege by damnable heresies from the faith once delivered. The three great heresies of our time can be difined as thus: One - Anti-Reclaimation - the gradual drift from the Missionary work of teh Holy Reclaiming - having bcome more prevalent in recent years as the faithful have come across more technolodgy advanced peoples but yet unenlightened - many of the faithful have wavered but perserverence must be our by word here. Two - Anti-Slavery - A false belief that enlightenment can just be given and accepted and not earned - this has led to many great Ammar Capsuleers to question there faith when they see the power and strength, but not the truth, of other civilisations. Slavery is also twisted by the heretic as a cruel, materialistic inforcement, but the heretic refuses to discuss the wonderful benefits to the sould and how, once enlightened the the slave becomes the master of their holy destiny. Three - Arguments against The Emperor representing the Holiness of God here in the Universe - this has manifested itself in the questioning of the most recent Emperor ascending her rightful place on the throne and confusing Tradition with Dogma. Ammarians have always been warned of destructive and blasphemous doctrines being brought into the religion : But there were always false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you nowe, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. The true prophets have always warned us, down the ages, that the heretic will exploit you with deceptive words. "The Lord gave our Emperor the power to harness the Good and punish the Evil. Ever since, the Emperor has lived the lives of his subjects and breathed the air of authority." -The Scriptures, Book I. and again "Here we are. This is the world of God. We are his chosen ones. This place, this planet of peace and abundance, he made for us. It's ours for the taking. There will be obstacles and difficulties. That's his test. We must make his gift deserving. This beginning. This birth of life. This dawn of greatness. We can not fail, for we have the Emperor to lead us and destiny to follow. -The Scriptures. Second Letter of St. Junip of Aerui. It is important for us to study our scriptures closely because they show us in a general way that traitors will come from within and subvert many in following their evil ways. These traitors to the faith are not led by their intention for the good of the Empire as were those God inspired to be prophets. The prophets warn that these "false teachers" will come from within the faith The implication is that "forewarned is forearmed"! Therefore, be on guard! These heresies will seem to provide something we consider very desirable for our well-being. But all the while the liberties they promise in their false teachings will be so destructive that they only serve to deny enlightenment. We find that the false teachers are themselves driven by covetousness. They desire to get something for themselvesùpower over people, possibly the perception of being a scholar, maybe popularity or money. With that motivation, they prove that God does not lead them. Why are false teachings so deserving of condemnation? False teaching perverts the direction and outcome of our lives, unless we reject or repent of it, if we had once accepted it. On the other hand, possessing true doctrines and beliefs is of exceeding importance because what a person believes determines their attitude and conduct. Right thoughts precede right actions. Thus, a heretic is a man who believes what he wishes to believe instead of accepting the truth of God that he ought to believe. The Real Source of Heresy From the Scriptures point of view is that a heresy is a lie. No matter how attractively it may be
RhajKa	Posted - 2008.08.10 04:10:00 - [3] Part 3 Heresy is not always easily detected because the Heretic usually camouflages the lie with a large measure of truth. He is a master of deceit. Because the universe is so ignorant of God, the Heretic can tell them virtually anything, and they will believe it. But with the Ammar Faithful he generally does not directly challenge or obviously and blatantly misquote Scripture. He subtly twists the intent of a scripture to bend it into a wrong application or understanding. At other times, he will appeal to our vanity to get us to react to his suggestions without thinking. However, do not be fooled that so few doctrines are directly mentioned with the word "heresy" attached. The heretic will attack the people of God in any spiritual area. Heresy and Apostasy Some think that, when someone accepts heresy, he will "leave the church." That may occur on some occasions, but this confuses hairesis with apostasia. Apostasia means, "to depart from truth"! One can remain in an organization and be departing from truth all along. This is vitally important to us living the Reclaiming When the heretic detects they were wavering, the key to the heretic is getting a faithful person to doubt. It removes conviction and replaces it with uncertainty. Doubt stifles courage and promotes fear. This is why the liberal mind of man is not subject to the law of God. Through his ministers' false teaching, the heretic will make every effort to deceive people to break God's laws. From what has occurred within the church of God, we can see how the heretic has attacked and continues to attack through heresy. First, the heretic inspires a steady stream of small changes called "adjustments," "clarifications" or "refinements" to revealed and established doctrines. Several of these may slip by without notice, but the overall effect will be to begin to cast doubt on what was previously believed. Careful and disciplined submission to God will begin to slacken as people become uncertain about what is right. For a member who is becoming aware of the threatening nature of the "refinements," this is a critical juncture. He may either opt to scrutinize the changes more closely or to ignore them. At this point the heretic's ministers may "adjust" a fairly important doctrine to test the reaction of the membership. The doctrine may not be critical to salvation, but may nonetheless shed important light on the process. Second, he inspires his ministers to make a "refinement" to the overall message of God. Second, he moves to obscure the nature of God. This, combined with altering God's purpose, will cast a member into deep confusion about how he is supposed to conduct his life. When they are made at the end of an extremely long, rapid-fire sermon. In the cold light of reality, these changes would make God look bad. Some members would question why these doctrines had never been adequately explained before. Others would wonder why God had not been powerful enough or cared enough to institute them before. Instead, they would reason, He had allowed His church to suffer for generations without these wonderful teachings. But the Heretic lays the blame on the shoulders of the former administration, which was not nearly as "scholarly" or "understanding" as the present one. I leave you with the words of Scripture: "For forty millenniums we struggled in the desert. Time of infinity to grief our misgivings. Time of eternity to stray without God's guidance. One can repent and pray for forgiveness. But true meekness is one that has penetrated and laid its roots in the very heart of a man. The stars above will not weep for us parting. The air we breathe won't notice our disappearance. The dirt of the earth will embrace our decadence. Only in God can we thrive and grow. Only God." -The Scriptures. Kuria 4:23. Your most humble and lowly of servants Rahj Ka
Vlad Cetes Caldari Heretic Militia	Posted - 2008.08.10 06:45:00 - [4] Edited by: Vlad Cetes on 10/08/2008 06:45:02 You must be newly graduated. Here are the facts of life that your instructors never taught you: Your believe in non-existant powers matters none. They will not protect you from me or other people who will shoot you merely for target practice, or for a killmail. The only thing that matters in this universe are guns, power and money. I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.08.10 07:42:00 - [5] Well-written, considered, and informative. No matter what you follow, the lessons here are valuable. Kudos for posting this. Warp Speed skill needed!
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.08.10 09:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Vlad Cetes Edited by: Vlad Cetes on 10/08/2008 06:45:02 You must be newly graduated. Here are the facts of life that your instructors never taught you: Your believe in non-existant powers matters none. They will not protect you from me or other people who will shoot you merely for target practice, or for a killmail. The only thing that matters in this universe are guns, power and money. Hell, I'm not even an adherent to the Amarr faith, and I can tell you right now that you're wrong. There are other things that matter - things like reputation, intelligence and faith. That latter one's especially powerful. Faith - whether it be faith in Amarr, in Achura, something secular or in something else altogether - is the most powerful motivator of humans whatsoever. The Gallente are motivated by their faith in Democracy, for example. Deny faith and you deny a true seat of power - a power that can drive armies of men with guns, that can grip people in an almighty powerful fist, and which can amass great stores of wealth. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Bast's Cleric Amarr 24th Imperial Reserves	Posted - 2008.08.10 12:07:00 - [7] This is an Excellent Sermon., and to Follow up on Sticher's post. Faith above all else will guide you through life. Faith is a powerful tool, a loyal companion, and a strong weapon. -
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2008.08.10 15:47:00 - [8] More "worship me properly otherwise face eternal damnation" talk. Your ideal of a God is a supremely arrogant one and therefore is an evil one. I can help you simplify your lives here. Know that there is no God, therefore there is no heresy to be concerned of.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:20:00 - [9] Edited by: Veron Daerth on 10/08/2008 18:22:42 Pilot Kazzzi, your words are saddening. God does exist, and looks down upon you even now. Whether or not you believe in Him is irrelevant. He believes in you, and that is all that matters. (to a point at least) God does not desire slavish devotion and worship to Him without thought. What God desires is here <Veron Daerth points to his head> and here <Veron Daerth points to his heart> and whether each day, you choose to do good, <Veron Daerth begins to turn away, but stops and looks over his shoulder, a faint smile on his lips> or not. <He begins to walk down a hallway, the camera drone follows> I think that you and others that decry God and His Works, in whatever form they take, are actually simply afraid. You know you do things that He would not approve, and you dont know if or what awaits you in the end as payment for your actions. You cannot imagine ever being forgiven for those actions and so you despair. In your despair, you become angry and hateful and shout like a child at the sky, shaking your fist. "You are not real, you cannot hurt me, you cannot make me be or do anything I dont want to!" What you do not realize is that the forgiveness of God is infinite. Should you, even today, even now, accept and repent of your sins, He will welcome you into His arms. <Veron Daerth stops in front of a door, presses a keypad. The door opens soundlessly, and he pokes his head into the room. He nods to himself. A little girl is glimpsed sleeping on a messy bed behind him, before the door shuts and he moves on.> Lesharu sometimes misbehaves, and cannot imagine, in her childlike understanding of the world, being forgiven for this. There are of course other considerations to take into account, but she cannot fathom how much I love her, and how it prides me to see her take responsibility for her actions. When she told me she had broken the sculpture in my viewing room, I was of course, angry (she wasnt supposed to be there), and disappointed. But she also told me before I had to find out for myself. She will probably never know of my pride in her and her sense of responsibility. She was spanked, of course, because she had done wrong, and she was made to clean it up. But I also made sure she knew that I was glad she had told me herself and hadnt lied about it. You see, as a father, we have to watch our children stumble and fall sometimes. They make mistakes, and we have to correct them. We pick them up, dust them off, sometimes punish their transgressions. But at the end of the day, so long as they continue to try their hardest to do good, to behave, to succeed, they are rewarded. And as their parents, we love them. God is not so different, you know. <Veron Daerth turns and smiles at the camera> We are all His children, Pilot Kazzzi, even you. God will forgive you, should you repent. You dont have to be Amarrian, you dont even have to have ever been of the Faith. Do you truly think God cares about what race you are? Where you were born? No, though others may tell you so. You are a child of God, and are worthy of His Love. All you have to do is accept it. May the Light of God's Wisdom shine upon you all. <End Communication>
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.08.10 18:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Veron Daerth Pilot Kazzzi, your words are saddening. God does exist, and looks down upon you even now. Offer me a single shred of proof that God exists. One single shred. Originally by: Veron Daerth Whether or not you believe in Him is irrelevant. He believes in you, and that is all that matters. I have heard this said before, and allow me to say that it is one of the most insipid things that I have ever heard a believer say, and does nothing to convince me to believe in the demon you worship. Originally by: Veron Daerth I think that you and others that decry God and His Works, in whatever form they take, are actually simply afraid. You know you do things that He would not approve, and you dont know if or what awaits you in the end as payment for your actions. You cannot imagine ever being forgiven for those actions and so you despair. In your despair, you become angry and hateful and shout like a child at the sky, shaking your fist. "You are not real, you cannot hurt me, you cannot make me be or do anything I dont want to!" This is a very common argument used by believers - "non-believers don't really disbelieve, they're simply angry that they have to follow <insert name of deity here>'s dictates". No. This is piggishly arrogant, incredibly presumptuous and patently untrue. I really don't believe in your demon god. I really don't. I believe in an entirely different religion - the Intaki religion, a religion that does not neccessitate genocide and slavery in the name of an unverifiable concept. We do not need your demon, and we do not need your Empire. You have no right to force either on us, and that is why we fight - that is why we'll tear down your entire civilization if we have to. It seems, now, that it's the only way we can divest you of the illusion of your divinely-appointed superiority. Your society has arrogance and superiority complexes built right into it - nothing less than an incredible social upheaval will ever remove them. And because you make these presumptions, because you treat the world with such arrogance, that is why you and your Empire need to fall. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.

Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:27:00 - [11] Ahh, Pilot Ixiris, you turn your words to me. I am truly honored. Hmm, but how to respond. Let me ask you a few questions. What encompasses the Intaki religion in which you believe? To whom or what do you pray? Do you pray at all? What proofs do you have that whatever you pray (assuming you pray) to exists? Now, I could also be very petty and ask you to show me proof that God DOESNT exist. But it unlikely that any proof you brought me would sway me, just as any proofs I brought you would be discarded just as equally. We both believe what we believe, and its damned unlikely that either of us will sway the other. Frankly, you religion is as unverifiable as mine. Thats part of it being about faith. Actually, to an atheist, both of us are superstitious fools shouting into the darkness. Welcome to the club, fees arent necessary, but always appreciated. Have I ever advocated genocide and slavery? Well, I suppose you could say that I advocate slavery simply by owning slaves, but I believe that Pilot Subaka would disagree with you there. She has a completely different point of view concerning slavery than I do. The slaves of the Angel Cartel and the sex-slaves of the Serpentis Syndicate would also tell you that their masters look at it differently than I do. And I can assure you that I look at slavery very differently than most Amarrians do. You dont need Amarrian religion to foster slavery, the rest of you seem to be doing that quite well without us. Now, you and I could trade barbs and witticisms about how and why Amarrian slavery is terrible and inhumane and bad. For the most part, I would probably even agree with you in principle. Really, I would like to disassociate the Faith from slavery, but that is highly unlikely in my lifetime, long as it will be. So where does genocide come in? Amarrians have never practiced genocide as part of the Faith. In reality, genocide would be something excessively bad from the standpoint of the faith. You cant convert the dead, you cant Redeem what isnt there to hear your words. You certainly cant save their souls if you have already sent them on to the next life. I am truly insipid? I am bland and dull? Interesting. To me, the thought that God is always there, always watching us, always hoping, expecting me to do my best is... well, lets just say that it isnt dull. I have great interest in Him, and so should you. Perhaps you already do, I dont know. Really though, I am not here to convince you to do anything. I simply tell others of what I believe, what they do with that is up to them. You have free will, God's gift to you. You seem to be using it, congratulations. I must admit that you are very often as far from insipid as one can get. Perhaps I am arrogant. I have been told that this is so, and have been working on that. Alas, in my culture, I am a person of worth, with wealth and power to command. These things tend to make people a bit, self important let us say, at times. As a pod pilot, in many ways, you do too. I would also point out that you too, sir, can come across as arrogant and a bit elitist at times. That aside, I have no wish to engage you in a debate of the merits of our respective faiths. We each disagree, and will probably never come to an accord on faith. The Faith sees you as a unbeliever, fit for Reclaiming (slavery), I see you as misguided, and fit to be enlightened (no, not enslaved) if you so wish (and you probably dont care anyway). How you see me, is well... I am not sure. I probably dont care either. <Veron Daerth turns away, then turns back> Oh, I am interested in your faith though. Its something of a hobby of mine, religion in general. If you have time and the inclination, send me something about it. I am sure you can reach my Neocom mailbox if I am not available. God go with you, Pilots.
MirrorGod Heretic Militia	Posted - 2008.08.10 19:31:00 - [12] Bad mouth my fine organization, will you? So be it. But do me the honor of meeting me on the field, pilot Rhajka, lest all your words be for nothing more than fear and cowardice of the enemy you clearly do not understand. And sir, I am your enemy. Save Small Gang Warfare
Red Katherine Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.10 20:01:00 - [13] Originally by: RhajKa Three - Arguments against The Emperor representing the Holiness of God here in the Universe - this has manifested itself in the questioning of the most recent Emperor ascending her rightful place on the throne and confusing Tradition with Dogma. Thank you for your enlightening sermon, sir. I highlighted a particularly important and interesting distinction you make between "Tradition" and "Dogma". Perhaps you could further explain these two concepts and how they relate to each other. I feel that understanding this distinction is crucial to healing the rift which has occurred with the ascension of Jamyl Sarum to the golden throne.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.08.10 20:50:00 - [14] Allow me to raise a hand of placation here for a second. Disbelief - or indeed adherence to an alternative - are no grounds whatsoever for denying outright the possible truth of a faith, or to demand evidence. The entire point of a religion is that it is an article of faith, belief in the unprovable. Religion, in other words, is not a science, and to demand "proof" that the Amarr god exists is not merely an attack on the Amarr religion, but on all religions. The Intaki are fortunate - modern technology has allowed you to translate one of your religious traditions into secular reality. This does not constitute proof that your beliefs are accurate however. After all, if we can read the neuroarchitectural changes brought about by the Rebirth ceremony and understand precisely what is going on, then it takes some of the faith out of the process and replaces it with cold, unfeeling science. Do we need proof that the spirits of the universe are around us? Do we need proof of God? Do we need to prove the cycles of rebirth? No; these are matters of belief, not of science, and best left that way. To all of you who vehemently deny the existence of God, therefore, I offer this rebuttal - prove that He does NOT exist. You cannot. Your denial of God is every bit as much an article of faith as the conviction in His existence, founded upon the exact same amount of admissible scientific evidence - absolutely none. You are free to your opinions, gentlemen, but I want to see an end right now to this "God does not exist" crap. I don't believe in Him either, but I have no way of proving that the Amarr are wrong, nor the desire to. To demand proof of one faith is to deny the foundation of all faiths, including atheism. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Kazzzi Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services	Posted - 2008.08.10 22:40:00 - [15] Even if your God were real, I would not kneel to him. I do not need a divine power to tell me how to be a good person, not that I find much "good" to be said of your God in any of the scriptures. Your priests are mere purveyors of lies and hate, your cathedrals are bastions of propeganda. It gladdens me to have caused the death and destruction of many of both.
MirrorGod Heretic Militia	Posted - 2008.08.10 23:40:00 - [16] Edited by: MirrorGod on 10/08/2008 23:40:36 Originally by: Stitcher Allow me to raise a hand of placation here for a second. Disbelief - or indeed adherence to an alternative - are no grounds whatsoever for denying outright the possible truth of a faith, or to demand evidence. The entire point of a religion is that it is an article of faith, belief in the unprovable. Religion, in other words, is not a science, and to demand "proof" that the Amarr god exists is not merely an attack on the Amarr religion, but on all religions. The Intaki are fortunate - modern technology has allowed you to translate one of your religious traditions into secular reality. This does not constitute proof that your beliefs are accurate however. After all, if we can read the neuroarchitectural changes brought about by the Rebirth ceremony and understand precisely what is going on, then it takes some of the faith out of the process and replaces it with cold, unfeeling science. Do we need proof that the spirits of the universe are around us? Do we need proof of God? Do we need to prove the cycles of rebirth? No; these are matters of belief, not of science, and best left that way. To all of you who vehemently deny the existence of God, therefore, I offer this rebuttal - prove that He does NOT exist. You cannot. Your denial of God is every bit as much an article of faith as the conviction in His existence, founded upon the exact same amount of admissible scientific evidence - absolutely none. You are free to your opinions, gentlemen, but I want to see an end right now to this "God does not exist" crap. I don't believe in Him either, but I have no way of proving that the Amarr are wrong, nor the desire to. To demand proof of one faith is to deny the foundation of all faiths, including atheism. Allow me to retort. Faith is fine, nothing is wrong with believing in a higher power, be that higher power a force of nature or a "man in the skies". What is a sin is organized religion. When one believes that his higher power wants him to crusade upon another man with a different view of higher power. When a group of people use that higher power as a tool to manipulate their masses. When politicians ***** out their god to push thier agendas. When a race decides they war and enslave all others who do not believe in their higher power. I've said upon the founding upon my organization: "It doesn't matter if god does or doesn't exist, because they have used him as a tool to drive their politics. That is reality, and so God is real, evil as ever, in the Amarr Kingdom" In this case, and in many others throughout history, God is real, an idea created by man to suit man's needs and agenda. Man is evil, man is power-hungry, man is self-destructing. Man is God, in the amarr kingdom, self-worshiping through a thin veil of convenient self-righteous scripture and ritual. That is my purpose in killing "god", but really, I'm not killing god at all, my purpose is not against a higher-power, it is against corrupt men who insult the idea of faith through manipulation of just that, justifying and denying their manipulation through, again, scripture written by men, and ritual designed by men. I can't imagine any higher power wishing death and destruction on his creations by his creations in his name. Save Small Gang Warfare
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.08.11 01:07:00 - [17] To some extent I agree with you, MirrorGod. But I believe you're confusing the religion with the monsters who have used it to disguise their monstrosity. The abuse of God's name to cause evil in the world does not make God inherently evil. If that were true then even the mysticism and ascetic contemplation of Achur would be inherently evil - there are plenty of monstrous Achura pilots out there. A faith is not by any definition automatically "good" or "evil" - only the actions of men may define those things, and many times the galaxy's greatest atrocities have been committed by men and women who believed they were doing good. Just look at Alexander Noir's last transmission. All I'm saying is, you're free to deny the religion, and even to fight it. A religion is a worldly, secular construct formed around the core idea of the faith. Don't attack the faith itself, however. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.11 02:17:00 - [18] I do agree with Pilot Tarn-Hakatain's words, and wish to point out one other thing. Attacking someone's faith is a very very very good way to get them to fight to the death to resist you, often leaving the winner as the guy that is barely able to stand. Just look at the Minmatar, they have been fighting for centuries, as a people. Also Pilot MirrorGod, a question. I may have misunderstood you, so please correct me if I am wrong. But do you yourself believe in God as defined by a higher power that watches us and seeks to guide us to enlightenment/betterment? I dont ask about the merits of the organization His followers have taken, or their rituals and ideals, wrong or right. I simply wish to know if you believe in God (or Gods, or Something) Again, this is for my personal understanding, and is not an attack upon your morals or ideals. God go with you all.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.08.11 02:48:00 - [19] Verin, I don't think it's necessary to be a monster, or even to abuse a faith, to produce the sort of atrocities the Amarr are capable of. I don't think MirrorGod has quite the right idea, either, of course, but I will say this: If I were a God of Light and Love, the rules I created would be clear to everyone-- they might have the choice to break them, but I certainly wouldn't leave any doubt about which were mine. Even if the world I created were a harsh one, a training ground for their souls, I would, at the least, leave no doubt of this. If I were otherwise, however ... I would create a broad array of peoples in a world of scarcity, and I would hardwire the majority of all of them with certain moral impulses, so that they wouldn't kill themselves off too quickly. I would appear to them wearing a thousand faces: to one, as a pantheon, to another, as a single being, but to all I would distribute different ideas, and maybe some of them would be partly true, about the way the universe works. I'd keep these ideas functional, so that their societies would continue and develop. And I'd watch them fight, watch them fight each other and themselves, the desire for advantage and success warring with the "better nature" I'd endowed them with. Only, there would be a few of these peoples I'd inspire with the idea that I was there for everyone, but that I had chosen them to spread my Word, that it was their duty to unite everyone in My worship. I'd tell them all were doomed who did not come to Me and My Holy Way, and come up with some clever excuses for why I hadn't told these other, unhappy people what I was telling My chosen. I'd tell them they were destined to rule-- not only for their own sakes, but for everyone's. It would be like winding up a clockwork toy. I'd watch them rampage across My creation, those of good will and profound morality joining in the vigorous conquering with full hearts and clear consciences, slaughtering armies and taking entire civilizations into captivity in the profound conviction that they were doing The Right Thing. And the reason I would do this would be that it would be funny. Once, I thought the name of the Angel Cartel was intentionally ironic. Now, I think that if this universe has a single God, we Angels would be fitting messengers for Him. I would prefer, however, that the universe not think of us at all. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.08.11 03:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Aria Jenneth And the reason I would do this would be that it would be funny. Once, I thought the name of the Angel Cartel was intentionally ironic. Now, I think that if this universe has a single God, we Angels would be fitting messengers for Him. I would prefer, however, that the universe not think of us at all. There are actually two more options available. 1. It's a part of the plan. All the suffering, the misery, the wars and the deaths are a part of a plan, the best plan in fact. God (being omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving. And thus outside time, since the universe, per the all-loving clause, can not be deterministic as he would not put us through suffering if it made no difference. So clearly there is choice. And since there is choice he must be outside time so that he can see the end result anyway) has chosen the best plan, with the best possible results. Maybe the goal can not be achieved or be worth it any other way. A man who doesn't suffer learns nothing, because a man who is not suffering in any way is content. And those who are content have no wish to change (even if it's a change for the better). 2. That God is utterly indifferent to suffering. Why avoid it if it doesn't matter to him. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.

Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.08.11 03:39:00 - [21] To the first, Mr. Delateriel, I'd be quicker to believe that if I saw any evidence of human society (any of them) going "up" as opposed to "forward." You offer a possible explanation, but it's one that strikes me as requiring ... well, absolute, unshakable faith of the sort that defies all knowledge and experience outside itself. ... So, I suppose, exactly what the Amarrian faith seems based in. To the second? I have little to say to that: the difference between an uncaring god and a non-existent (or non-sentient) one seems to come down to whether anything outside of creation can, in fact, change it-- whether the source of all events lies within, or whether some are caused by an entity on the outside. So I suppose the main effect of that would be whether essential truth can ever be grasped (to the extent that it's possible to grasp a universe), or whether it must remain forever beyond our reach. The latter strikes me as rather sad. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Kimochi Rendar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.08.11 10:22:00 - [22] Originally by: Veron Daerth God does not desire slavish devotion and worship to Him without thought. What God desires is here <Veron Daerth points to his head> and here <Veron Daerth points to his heart> and whether each day, you choose to do good, <Veron Daerth begins to turn away, but stops and looks over his shoulder, a faint smile on his lips> or not. Veron Daerth... You remind me so much of the Administrator of the Imperial Academy station where I was taught how to be a pilot. If there was one man who ever had a chance of helping me retain my faith, it was him. He was like a grandfather... Probably the closest thing to family I've ever experienced. Originally by: Andreus Ixiris We do not need your demon, and we do not need your Empire. You have no right to force either on us, and that is why we fight - that is why we'll tear down your entire civilization if we have to. It seems, now, that it's the only way we can divest you of the illusion of your divinely-appointed superiority. Your society has arrogance and superiority complexes built right into it - nothing less than an incredible social upheaval will ever remove them. Pilot Ixiris I hope you appreciate the irony of your words. You sound just like the Caldari right before the Federation bombed Caldari Prime to oblivion. Ghost Festival is now recruiting!
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2008.08.11 16:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Veron Daerth Ahh, Pilot Ixiris, you turn your words to me. I am truly honored. Let me ask you a few questions. What encompasses the Intaki religion in which you believe? To whom or what do you pray? Do you pray at all? What proofs do you have that whatever you pray (assuming you pray) to exists? I'm not Andraeus but I will try to adress some of your questions as this subject is personal to me. Ida, the name of the Intaki faith, is a word that means in the native language "to consider". There is no God or similar figure to whom we devote worship. I like the way my teacher would explain the difference: Amarr is a faith of the devine and the godly, Ida is faith in the mundane and the self. The original basis of Ida is that the soul is a seperate entity from the mind and body and by living a diciplined and virtuious life the soul may be Reborn into another person. The individuals who are Reborn over many lifetimes (without technology, I'll get to that later) are known as Idama ("most holy") and take vows to serve as teachers and guides to others and to aid in reducing miseries in the world. Ida is not dogmatic in the way the Amarr faith is. Differences of opinion are accepted, even encouraged, with the belief that the rightness of wrongness of thoughts and actions will be borne out in their concequences. Ida however is a moral code, one that advocates peace, wisdom, tollerence, kindness and a continuing quest for understanding of the self and the world. (It may interest you to know that when I went to Intaki to study Ida, we also had to study religious writings of the Amarr, the Achura, Jin-Mei, Minmatar and so on.) For the particuarly devout this includes practices such as meditation (though I think that even an athiest can derive benifits from meditation practice). As Sitcher mentioned, we now have technology that allows anyone who wishes it to go through the Rebirth process. (I did a paper on this as my senior thesis at Caille which is partly what got me intersted in Ida in the first place). Neurology is still an expanding field (such is the complexity of the human brain) so a lot of the particularls of why Rebirth technology works are still being debated, however there is no scientific measure of anything we would think of as a "soul". There are several ways to interperit this depending on your point of view. The view of the fervent believer is to accept the soul as an article of faith, the athiestic view is to reject it because the soul is an article of faith. The moderate view and the one I lean torward is that whether or not this thing called a soul exists, the practice and tennents of Ida are benevolent, benificial and therefore still worth embracing. So, there is some of what I know of Ida. However I cannot truly claim that I understand Ida. There are many conflicts that trouble me...the one most obvious to people here would be that I affiliate myself with Ida and yet I left Intaki and took up the capsule again to fight in a war. But that's a different subject...
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.12 04:47:00 - [24] A most worthy and enlightening response, Pilot Brightman. I would also therefore add a few other questions. Without an incorruptible deity figure, what or who decides upon the nature of what constitutes "moral, good, or beneficial" behavior. With a deistic religion (one with a God / Gods / Supreme Force / etc) a moral code is handed down and is adhered to (with varying degrees of adherence) by the communicants. There are usually a set of very general rules or guidelines, and punishments, both secular and temporal, for failure to "be good" as defined by the moral code. Societies also do this, but social law and religious law are sometimes very much different. So I will leave social "morals" and "ethics" aside for now, and focus on the religious. Your religious beliefs would seem to have a bit of the basic structure (you be "good" and get Reborn, essentially a form of limited immortality) but what/who determines "Virtue". You mention that those that have already been Reborn act as guides to those that wish to be. Is this guidance authoritative or benign? Anything that you might have to offer in the way of insight is appreciated. God bless you with His Wisdom.
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2008.08.12 06:55:00 - [25] This will take two posts, I'll start with the easier question. Quote: You mention that those that have already been Reborn act as guides to those that wish to be. Is this guidance authoritative or benign? Generaly benign. I should clarify here, not all Idama are formal teachers. We call a teacher of the faith "Apaka", when they are an Idama we call them by the title "Idama-Apaka". Of the 500-odd recognized Idama, the greater precentage of them are engaged in other professions: outreach and chairity work, diplomacy, even political advocates to name a few examples. Of fairly recent note, Vremaja Idama (whom you can look up in news archives) was a lecturer at U. of Caille (at the same time I was in the humanities department on my Extended Studies grant, another confluence of events that got me interested in the Intaki faith). I think one or two work or have worked with the Sisters of Eve at times. Sometimes the best teachers are simply those that lead by example. Anyhow, Apaka often have their own style. Some perscribe strict regimins (simple labor, exercise, meditation, etc) to help train the student in self-dicipline, for example. Some prefer to focus more on mental exercise, on discussion, on broadening of knowledge, of outreach. To claim that one methood is better than any other is considered both ignorant and arrogent; the student must find what best suits them. Students are free to come and free to leave, they may disagree with things but they are expected to be respectfull in their disagreement. If they decide Ida is not for them, they have only themselves to answer to. There are a very few things that will earn a person formal condemnation from the community, the most extreme punishment being banishment from all the faith's gathering places and holy sites. Falsely claiming to be an Idama and leading people based on that claim would be such a thing, though it's extremely rare. Serious crimes of the more mundane sort (theft, murder, etc) may result in a person being barred on a local level (it's case-by-case depending on circomstances), but they are not truly banished in the sense that they might redeem themselves and be welcome back.
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2008.08.12 07:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Veron Daerth Without an incorruptible deity figure, what or who decides upon the nature of what constitutes "moral, good, or beneficial" behavior. (...)what/who determines "Virtue"? This is hard to write an answer for so bear with me. At the simplest level there are two core concepts from which moral beliefs radiate. "Mayak kamin mai" is a phrase which translates to "see with eyes unclouded". This is the First Law. One who looks at the world while putting asside the things that prevent him from seeing clearly...fear, hatred, supersition and so on...may see the true nature of things. It is not quite what Amarr might think of as "devine inspiration"; the later is often attributed to intense passion in their devotion and passion is a thing that can cloud judgement as well. Quote: There are usually a set of very general rules or guidelines, and punishments, both secular and temporal, for failure to "be good" as defined by the moral code. "Karman" means "concequences". "Know karman is born of every action", that is the Second Law. The correlary is that karman may illustrate the right or wrong of an action; it is even believed by some that karman, good or bad, may follow you through Rebirth. Here is a easy example: If one looks clearly at one who acts with wisdom and one who acts without, one can see plainly the folly that can come of acting without wisdom. So wisdom is deemed a virtue. It's believed that one one person can have clear vision on everything that concearns them, so the experiences of lives and past lives are continualy handed down, adding to our understanding: by Apaka, by elders, by students, by ordinary people. The Idama are holy because they have the experiences of many lifetimes to draw upon; they are a link between the past and the present, as far back as before the Intaki met the Gallente. Normal Rebirth only transmits the personality (and "soul") of the person, but with practice an Idama can recal memories. With their knowledge, they take on tasks of doing good in the world as a responsability. Quote: Your religious beliefs would seem to have a bit of the basic structure (you be "good" and get Reborn, essentially a form of limited immortality) I think this is an oversimplification. Anyone can live a good, virtuous life without being Reborn as a result. Likewise one could live a life that was flawed in some way but by praciting the diciplines of Ida they may still achieve Rebirth. There is honor in being Reborn but no inherent shame in not being so (I'm not). To be Reborn entails an extra level of commitment, so to speek, largely the mental and spiritul self-dicipline, which as a concequence lead to understanding of the moral side of Ida. A concequence of the technological Rebirth process is that Rebirth can now follow with signifigantly less dedication...is has some benifits but it's not a fact enjoyed by many traditionalists. It's become more and more neccessicary for believers to focus on Ida as a tool for improving one's current life than Rebirth into the next in order to keep the faith alive. There are a small number of people however who strive for the ideal of being Reborn the old-fashioned way. A parting note that may interest you. Some neurologists from the Utopian Scholar Foundation (sadly defunct) did a study where they did brainscans of an Apaka and his students in meditation and some Amarrian monks in deep prayer. The scans showed near-identical phenomenon in regions of the frontal lobe at the times the subjects connected with the height of their religious experience. I reject and condemn a lot of things the Amarr religion and its practitioners profess but Ida teaches that we should look for similarities instead of differences to find true understanding. Two years ago I don't think I could have fathomed a calm discussion of religion with an Amarrian like this.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.12 21:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Faraelle Brightman Originally by: Veron Daerth Two years ago I don't think I could have fathomed a calm discussion of religion with an Amarrian like this. <Veron Daerth laughs> Indeed Pilot, the wonders of the universe are truly infinite. Alas that more cannot see that logical, calm discussion can address much. Not that there isnt a time for vehement and raucous debate, mind you. I just find that in matters of religion, it is wise to, well... to keep an open mind. God is infinitely complex, and as such, is beyond our total understanding. I do try to keep that in mind too. At any rate, I will bother you no longer about the intricacies of your religion (I assume it is yours) and draw your time and attention away from other matters. You have given me much to meditate upon. God light your path, Pilots.
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn	Posted - 2008.08.12 22:23:00 - [28] On the contrary, ask away. My "other maters" at this time tend to mostly involve the war and so are not alltogether plesant. Being able to wax academic on a subject not directly related to current politics is a welcome respite. Two years out of Caille and I still count years by papers I've written. These days it's safe to call Ida "my religion" in all the ways that mater I suppose. You could say I'm something of a wayward pupil. I try to meditate daily and it brings me some peace and I try to embrace the core precepts, but nothing is really simple.
Soo Me	Posted - 2008.08.13 05:38:00 - [29] Edited by: Soo Me on 13/08/2008 05:38:49 deleted
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.08.13 06:12:00 - [30] Pilot Brightman, I am pleased that you find continued discourse desirable. Many do not have the patience for that. Very well then, I am curious about the process of being Reborn. Is this process natal? Say (hypothetically) I am Reborn. Am I actually born, as an infant, and then age and grow like any other person? Or can my "soul" (for lack of a better term) be Reborn into an adult or already extant person? How does the process of being Reborn work? By this I refer to the "natural" form. That aside, how does the "technological" form work? If you dont know, do you know anyone that might? In my faith, we are taught that God created our bodies to house our souls, and that those souls are born perfect, though the vessel that houses it is not. The soul is indivisible and is born without sin. Our actions in life determine the nature of our souls, and should we so choose, we can twist and warp them, but not destroy them. When we die, God will sit in Judgement of our soul, and depending on our actions in life, will reward us accordingly. The point of this process is to attain a greater understanding of God and His Creation. Those that live lives of virtue and goodness come to know of God's bounty in the afterlife, and when their souls are Redeemed, they come to know of His Wisdom and Knowledge. The glory of all Creation is spread before them, and the wonder of the infinite universe is opened to them. <Veron Daerth laughs. The holo pickup zooms out slightly. The viewer can see part of a bar in the background. It appears to be a bit rowdy and noisy. A Jin-Mei female is sitting next to Veron Daerth> There I go again. My friend here barely saved you from a torrent of sermonizing that I seem to be so good at. At any rate, I await your response Pilot. "Do not despair, for I say unto you, the smallest light shines ever brighter in the deepest darkness." Translation from an ancient Amarrian religious text

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