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DJ Geist
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Posted - 2008.08.11 07:53:00 -
[1]
I was reading the wikipedia article on warhammer because I know nothing of the game but I'm curious about the AOR launch. Then I came across this, which reminded me very much of the setup, in eve-online lore, for how the various races within the world came to be pitted against each other:
"Chaos was introduced into the Warhammer World by the "Old Ones"; star-travelling gods responsible for the creation of most of the setting's sentient races. These Old Ones were brought low by the daemonic forces inadvertently unleashed by the collapse of their Warp Gates (one at either pole), leaving their creations to fend for themselves. This backstory also provides an easy explanation for the variety of familiar fantasy races, and provides a logical framework for them to fit in. Ogres and Halflings, for example, are closely related. Both are resistant to the mutating effects of Chaos energies (fuelled by hearty appetites and efficient metabolisms), but have opposite physical templates."
So which came first? The warhammer franchise has been around for many years, and if detail about its backstory was part of its literature early enough in the inception, then it seems that warhammer should get credit.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.11 08:52:00 -
[2]
What are you talking about?
EVE backstory has nothing to do with warhammer. There are not even similarities, for which I am glad. Because the Warhammer is universe is really crap.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.08.11 10:37:00 -
[3]
Well, they are both background stories. The similarities end there.
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Ideas for: Mining
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.08.11 10:50:00 -
[4]
nope, sorry. Don't see the connection.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.11 11:49:00 -
[5]
Now I get it. You are lawyer that is looking for an opportunity to sue CCP because of alleged copyright infringement.
I am glad I can disappoint you. The story of EVE online is very unique. 
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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.08.11 12:40:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dex Nederland on 11/08/2008 12:40:20
 Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Now I get it. You are lawyer that is looking for an opportunity to sue CCP because of alleged copyright infringement.
I am glad I can disappoint you. The story of EVE online is very unique.
Which would fail, the Warhammer Fantasy background is from the 1970s-80s. It has a bit of lead time on Eve. Don't give the guys over at Games-Workshop ideas for suing people over IP infringement, they'll do it in a heart beat.
 Founder Heiian Society |
Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Shadow Company
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.08.11 13:06:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Which would fail, the Warhammer Fantasy background is from the 1970s-80s. It has a bit of lead time on Eve. Don't give the guys over at Games-Workshop ideas for suing people over IP infringement, they'll do it in a heart beat.
Hah. If that was the case then Blizzard would have been embroiled in one major lawsuit.
As pointed out by a certain Penny Arcade comic there are more similarities between world of warcraft and warhammer than EVE.
If anything EVEs backstory is the mishmash hybrid between old-school post-post-apocalyptic science fiction and "generic videogame background blurb why these guys are fighting each other".
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-You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary. |
DJ Geist
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Posted - 2008.08.11 16:42:00 -
[8]
No, I'm not a lawyer looking to initiate or incite a lawsuit. I was just sharing what you might call my slight disillusionment over what I first thought was a very interesting and dramatic feature of the eve backstory: the idea that different races travelling far away become stranded due to the collapse/failure of some warp gate, and are now stuck in that far away area to fight each other over resources. I thought that connection would be obvious enough from the portion of wikipedia that I quoted above. Do you even read posts Abrazzar, or do you just skim them and then react to them? I would suggest getting "reading comprehension" to at least level 4, after which you can train "understanding the implied", "principles of charity in rhetoric" to either 2 or 3. After that you can fit your posts with devastating T2 "glibs" and "barbs" with some effectiveness.
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DJ Geist
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Posted - 2008.08.11 16:47:00 -
[9]
Same goes for you, stitcher! Every day I'm on this forum, it just amazes me how many smug and foolishly righteous personalities exist behind all the serene sci-fi avatars. Do any of you ever even have conversations anymore, or is it just "I have x-million skill points, I will sit on my throne and wait for someone to say something so that I can have a chance to shoot them down!" all the way?
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Tishlin Veredici
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 00:56:00 -
[10]
This is silly.
Warhammer Backstory: Posits interstellar beings created the world, brought about their own demise through whatever and were KILL BY DEMONS. The demons then BLAH BLAH BLAH MUTATIONS LETS FIT IN ALL THE TOLKIEN RACES, K?
EVE-O Backstory: Humanity had stretched its empire across the Milky Way, but the government stagnated fot a lack of resources and internal population pressures. A pressure valve for this was found in the form of the EVE gate, a stable wormhole discovered on the fringes of the humand empire. This gate conected the Milky Way to the EVE galaxy we inhabit. The human empire began to set up colonies in this new galaxy, but the wormhole collapsed before they could become self-sufficient, and the scattered colonies degraded into strife and famine before laboriously bootstrapping themselves back up the technological tree over the course of many centuries. The colonies had been sufficiently seperated for their bloodlines to diverge and become unique, resulting in the bloodlines and races we know today.
Darn, I see so many similarities there, Geist. You'd better alert CCP that they owe Games Workshop some royalty payments post-haste. 
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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.08.12 01:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Which would fail, the Warhammer Fantasy background is from the 1970s-80s. It has a bit of lead time on Eve. Don't give the guys over at Games-Workshop ideas for suing people over IP infringement, they'll do it in a heart beat.
Hah. If that was the case then Blizzard would have been embroiled in one major lawsuit.
As pointed out by a certain Penny Arcade comic there are more similarities between world of warcraft and warhammer than EVE.
If anything EVEs backstory is the mishmash hybrid between old-school post-post-apocalyptic science fiction and "generic videogame background blurb why these guys are fighting each other".
True; I fail...
Founder Heiian Society |
DJ Geist
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Posted - 2008.08.12 03:27:00 -
[12]
Hey easy there, killer. You're in such haste to establish that the comparison is dissimilar, that you actually don't address the original way in which I suggested there might be a similarity. You also bulldozed through the warhammer backstory with such -disgust?- that you managed to explain next to nothing about warhammer and confused it all with bad grammar and a run-on sentence. I wouldn't have minded if you actually did explain something more about the warhammer story, since I don't know much about it at all.
Suggesting that something shares something similar with something else does not mean that it is identical with that something else. In fact, the very notion of similarity also has difference structured within it, for otherwise we would just say that the two things are identical, and there probably wouldn't be any interesting reason to compare them. So it's already a given that warhammer and eve-online are different. Really, I get it, ok? My original post pointed out that one feature or property of the warhammer backstory is nevertheless similar to that in eve-online, and it is the major plot element about warpgates being the explanation for how certain nonhuman races exist very far away, yet those warpgates failed for one reason or another, and now those races are left to fend for themselves and fight with each other for resources.
Again, I'm not interested in royalties or who should sue who. I'm not interested in what would hold up in court. The motif of the collapsed warp gate previously seemed unique to eve-online for symbolizing a kind of connection that many races have to a past, where agonizingly that past cannot be retreived or recovered. Something idyllic cannot be pined after, and instead the dramatic event of 'no warp gate' establishes the need for self-subsistence, industry, and a new order in some distant world, with newly stratified communities.
For an aspect of the forum that presumably includes people who read, the immediate hostility and vitrol with which some of you have reacted so far is laughable. Have you forgotten what it means to compare different stories? To find tantalizing similarities, while yet there are also differences, and then teasing out the implications of such comparisons? I mean if in a freshman literature class an instructor gave you an essay question where you had to compare Raskolnikov in the Brothers Karamazov to Alex in the Clockwork Orange, I suppose that you could avoid the critical activity and just write
"Rawrrr that's ridiculous there's no similarity at all. One charachter is living in RUSSIA where they have like vodka and horses k? and the other charachter lives like in some dystopian weird world where they drink MILK and talk in a totally different language. DUH. Pwnt"
but that wouldn't really be engaging the activity, and you would justifiably get a failing grade.
But yes, I should have known better. This isn't really any kind of community that wants to think of its lore too deeply, and it feels threatened when the mention of any other mmo/game gets brought to the table. Carry on folks - blow other ships up, and spend the rest of your time being righteously dismissive while at the same time rather oblivious, talking either past or over each other in the forums.
eve-online forums, for the brief time I've been here, you really amaze me. As the first and only mmorpg I have ever played, and that was just recently and relatively later in my life, I see such bullheaded hostility in this community, and I shudder to think about the real-life events that have made you all so hasty to dismiss others, and so hasty to shun discussion.
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Tishlin Veredici
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2008.08.12 03:58:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Tishlin Veredici on 12/08/2008 03:58:02
Fine, if you want to get pedantic about it than lets go back and find the first story with a motif of a group or civilization being cut off and stranded than lets do that. I can think of Lost In Space, but I'm sure we can go back farther. How about Robinson Crusoe? Should Daniel Defoe get "Credit" for Eve Online's backstory?
And to be frank, grow some skin. You come into a forum dedicated to the EVE backstory and literature, trying to say that Warhammer deserves "Credit" for the backstory of this game? Either you're an extremely clever troll or you had no idea that your post would generate justifiably agressive responses.
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DJ Geist
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Posted - 2008.08.12 04:54:00 -
[14]
Robinson Crusoe shares some similarity I suppose, but it is even more distant than the similarity that warhammer apparently shares with eve, because in Robinson Crusoe he is stranded but mostly at odds with the forces of nature and the fact that he is (at least initially) very alone, wheareas warhammer and eve both set up the isolation as a reason for a realignment of races at odds with each other over resources (plus in both games it has to do with the breakdown of some warp gate, although I don't know anything about the warhammer warp gate).
I don't really know anything about "Lost in space", but sure, there's probably more than just warhammer that originates (or continues, from further and even earlier sources) some of the kinds of conflicts and motifs set up in the eve-online story. In fact, there certainly is, and I'm sure there are better examples! The very nature of literature and lore is to draw on what is around it or prior to it, and an interesting and important part of critically engaging literature is to draw out those connections as a reader (instead of just a 'consumer'). If you don't care to do this I suppose it seems pedantic to you, but for others it might be edifying and enlightening! I'm reading the Empyrean Age novel right now and there's plenty to be said about Tibus' initial ideals and its similarities to a naive kind of Marxism. I don't think it's any kind of insult to Tony G. that his fiction has aspects that are inspired or influenced, consciously or unconsciously, from the writings that exist before "The Empyrean Age". Suggesting those kinds of connections is part of what it means to read a book or story and treat it like a further extension, in an admixture of old and new, of deeper human concerns filtered through the imagination.
It would be quite naive, this many centuries into a human world we have cross-pollinated stories and myths between cultures, to presume that an entire story (in mmorpg language, I guess this is "backstory") is ever original. If this is a statement you have difficulty disagreeing with, then it should also be harder to presume that I was trolling (by which I suppose you mean that I'm just trying to wind others up). In a world where nothing is original, I was initiating some of the 'connect-the-dots' in lore, this time between the stories of two mmorpg's. I think it would actually be an interesting discussion (fully honest here, no trolling, no hate/anxiety towards random internet others, etc) to tease out some of the even earlier connections. I mean if eve backstory is really worthwile, if it really is literature and not just characters with funny names and mention of technologies that we pair with good feelings because we 'use' those technologies in game, then it would be a good thing to talk about motifs, themes, morals, and their connection with what has concerned all kinds of authors and creative humans. If not, then it's just throwaway fanfic in the worst sense, like a disposable magazine you skim through once while in the checkout line at the supermarket.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.12 06:34:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 12/08/2008 06:35:58
There are similarities, but not the far fetched connection to Warhammer, that you want to draw. But to far older myth of humanity
Collapse of the EVE Gate -> People cast out of Paradise
Amarr Ancestors lead by a prophet to their Homeworld of Athras -> Moses and the Israelites.
Enheduanni -> Nephilim?
I am sure, more can be found. But this is not the point. Every story ever created, was influenced in one way or the other by what the person who wrote it, read and knew.
What is your point. The only connection I see there, is that there is a Warpgate/Stargate/Wormhole in the story. But these things are really common in Sci-Fi.
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DJ Geist
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Posted - 2008.08.12 07:56:00 -
[16]
Deviana, I'm not that familiar with science fiction these days, although I read a lot of it as a teenager. Maybe it is a common kind of theme, and ultimately relates back to biblical references (being cast out from paradise, never to return, etc). I didn't mean for people to get so huffy because I mentioned warhammer. It bears a similarity to warhammer in that one limited respect, but then warhammer and eve bear a similarity to that diaspora/thrown out of paradise theme more broadly.
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DJ Geist
Same goes for you, stitcher! Every day I'm on this forum, it just amazes me how many smug and foolishly righteous personalities exist behind all the serene sci-fi avatars. Do any of you ever even have conversations anymore, or is it just "I have x-million skill points, I will sit on my throne and wait for someone to say something so that I can have a chance to shoot them down!" all the way?
Grow the f*** up, dude. I didn't dismiss your idea because I have more skillpoints than you, I dismissed it because I don't agree with it.
No, seriously, I read the post and I really don't see any connection between the two backstories. Would you have preferred that I take your post apart and demolish it with a three paragraph rebuttal per sentence? How much of a waste of time would THAT have been?
People are allowed to disagree with you, you know. It doesn't make us "righteous" or "foolish" or "smug". If you really believe that everyone who dismisses your pet theories is being superior and arrogant then you are unbelievably childish.
The Warhammer backstory is a tale of magic and alien species, of daemons and doom, of sentient frogs, of elves and dwarves, of gods and men, of steel and sorcery and blood.
The EVE backstory is a tale of money and power, of men and machines, and of the pitfalls of human society. It's a world of corporations, cults and renegades, of control and freedom, of duty and cruelty and lasers.
About the only (tenuous) similarity I see is that at some point, some people went through a gate of some kind, which collapsed. But there are layers upon layers of thematic and intellectual difference there. A backstory is more than just one key event, and I reckon you're fixating on the one similarity and ignoring all the massive, fundamental differences in theme and philosophy that truly make a setting.
So no, I don't see a similarity between EVE and Warhammer. They're too different.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Korthan
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.08.13 21:50:00 -
[18]
Well the problem with Warhammer is they still have a connection to earth, but it's referred to as Terra in the WH40k series. They even mention Mars when talking about tech-marines and servitors etc, so the backgrounds are just way to different aside from big hulking fleets flying around through the warp blowing stuff up (eve stops there until planetary bombardment comes into play if it ever does).
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Ghost Festival - NA Recruiter/Director
-Korthan
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