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khosta
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:22:00 -
[1]
So after the nano/blaster nerf, with no sign of a missile counter in sight, it would seem a good time to train Caldari. They have the best close range high damage BS (and then ludicrously, all the way to 30km), the best EW, and ship bonuses to railguns, which unlike blasters are not going to be nerfed.
I think its the no counter to missiles that make them such an easy and obvious choice. They used to have low damage which helped mitigate the lack of an effective counter, but with the upcoming speed nerf, every shot will hit its target, unless trying to fire a torp at a frigate.
The Amarr khanid ships look good too now, all the advantages of the uncounterable missile, with tackle fitted too.
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white kight
SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:27:00 -
[2]
Basically...............this is yet another whine from someone about the nano nerf. There is nothing more annoying as a caldari pilot than watching all your missiles doing 0.1 damage on something. The Vagabond was overpowered imo since with a reasonably talented pilot it would never be caught. It made being caldari so unbelievably crap. I wish people would stop moaning constantly and use the spare high slots that most ships have to fit defender missiles which DO!!!!!!! stop missiles.
P.S.
Can i have your stuff?
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
khosta
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:36:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: white kight
Basically...............this is yet another whine from someone about the nano nerf.
Fail.
Not a whine, the whining is done elsewhere. This is the 'adapt' part of the adapt or die. The reason you fail so hard is I never flew a nano ship. My character is specialised in close range high damage warfare, and the Raven is simply the best for this role. In fact its the best for damage not just at very short range where the blaster was king, but all the way to 30km. With no chance of the sort of counter that gunnery faces with tracking disruption.
The defender is a ridiculous excuse for a missile counter. Many ships do not have a launcher slot, and they are nowhere near as effective as tracking disruptors which affect every gun on the target ship, and require no manual operation.
Please dont mistake adapting for whining.
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Baleine4Nerver
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Posted - 2008.08.12 13:49:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Baleine4Nerver on 12/08/2008 13:54:47
I could be wrong, but if memory serves were'nt caldari/missiles hit with the bat years ago when the missile changes came in... exploding before they actually hit the target to give damage radius, missile speeds and range..
Before that, Drones got hit.. sort of, drone bays got smaller, the amount you could deploy decreased, although damage went up to compensate. But I personally used to like deployoing 10 ogres from my domi.
Every thing gets hit at one point or other... and its usually because we the players exploit something that wasnt intended to be used the way we use it, or in the case of nanos.. take the mickey out of the game mechanics.
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khosta
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Posted - 2008.08.12 14:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Baleine4Nerver
Edited by: Baleine4Nerver on 12/08/2008 13:54:47
Every thing gets hit at one point or other... and its usually because we the players exploit something that wasnt intended to be used the way we use it, or in the case of nanos.. take the mickey out of the game mechanics.
In my opinion, nanos took the mickey out of lack of effective missile counter. The only way to counter missiles was to go at insane speed.
I guess I have lost faith in balance being sought. The crazy torpedo buff is a case in point. It completely destroyed the idea of the ultra close range high damage blaster ships as the damage was matched by the torpedo, and became the new highest damage weapon all the way out to 30km. But because it could not do highest damage and have best range, the Caldaris whined and considered it a nerf. With the huge numbers of Caldari subscribers, I no longer believe that CCP will nerf them like they do the other races.
I would like to think that the proposed changes have no chance of being final due to the adverse effect they will have on blaster ships. But the exact same thing happened with damps. There was a case for nerfing damps, but everyone knew the Gallente ships with damp bonuses were not overpowered. There were no calls to nerf ships with damp bonuses, not even from Caldaris. It seemed obvious during the proposed change period that if the damps were reduced in strength the ewar ship bonuses would be increased to compensate. It didnt happen. Caldaris just dont get that kind of nerf. The torpedo example shows that if something gets nerfed, they immediately get a counter boost to compensate.
Furthermore EVE appears to be in its twilight phase where pleasing the masses is more important than balance. Again the torpedo example proves this. In the early years of EVE each racial ship within a class had a defined area of operation where it excelled. Now the Raven is master at short and medium range, and so everyone flies them for PVE and close range PVP. There was a time when if a ship became 'over-used' it was a sign of being overpowered and they would rebalance until a better usage ratio was achieved. These days, they keep making an overpowered ship even stronger.
I thought I'd be one of the few to not join the Raven crowds. At this point, it is very hard not to, perhaps this thread was a last ditch attempt to find a reason not to train Caldari.
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Divad Ginleek
Gallente
Gateway Industries
House of Mercury
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:18:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Divad Ginleek on 12/08/2008 16:21:09
Originally by: khosta
...Furthermore EVE appears to be in its twilight phase where pleasing the masses is more important than balance...
Its called making money.
Nanos = invulnerable = broken game mechanic. Torpedos = short range, unguided, and most of the skills that help other missiles hit harder dont affect them. frig, and even cruiser pilots need not fear a torpedo boat. they dont even hit most BS for max damage unless it has a huge sig radius.
also, the MWD "nerf" is only applied by scramblers, and it only turns it off, you still have the speed to close in and blast your target. get your own web and scram on the target and melt faces as much as you want. i don't see the problem. it just makes it where your victim has a *chance* of working free. isn't that what balance is all about?
edit: I do agree that missiles need more of a counter, maybe a defender turret (like on real ships) that only requires a high slot, no specific mount type.
::insert witty signature here:: |
Malcanis
We are Legend
eXceed.
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Posted - 2008.08.12 16:34:00 -
[7]
Originally by: khosta
Originally by: Baleine4Nerver
Edited by: Baleine4Nerver on 12/08/2008 13:54:47
Every thing gets hit at one point or other... and its usually because we the players exploit something that wasnt intended to be used the way we use it, or in the case of nanos.. take the mickey out of the game mechanics.
In my opinion, nanos took the mickey out of lack of effective missile counter. The only way to counter missiles was to go at insane speed.
I guess I have lost faith in balance being sought. The crazy torpedo buff is a case in point. It completely destroyed the idea of the ultra close range high damage blaster ships as the damage was matched by the torpedo, and became the new highest damage weapon all the way out to 30km. But because it could not do highest damage and have best range, the Caldaris whined and considered it a nerf. With the huge numbers of Caldari subscribers, I no longer believe that CCP will nerf them like they do the other races.
I would like to think that the proposed changes have no chance of being final due to the adverse effect they will have on blaster ships. But the exact same thing happened with damps. There was a case for nerfing damps, but everyone knew the Gallente ships with damp bonuses were not overpowered. There were no calls to nerf ships with damp bonuses, not even from Caldaris. It seemed obvious during the proposed change period that if the damps were reduced in strength the ewar ship bonuses would be increased to compensate. It didnt happen. Caldaris just dont get that kind of nerf. The torpedo example shows that if something gets nerfed, they immediately get a counter boost to compensate.
Furthermore EVE appears to be in its twilight phase where pleasing the masses is more important than balance. Again the torpedo example proves this. In the early years of EVE each racial ship within a class had a defined area of operation where it excelled. Now the Raven is master at short and medium range, and so everyone flies them for PVE and close range PVP. There was a time when if a ship became 'over-used' it was a sign of being overpowered and they would rebalance until a better usage ratio was achieved. These days, they keep making an overpowered ship even stronger.
I thought I'd be one of the few to not join the Raven crowds. At this point, it is very hard not to, perhaps this thread was a last ditch attempt to find a reason not to train Caldari.
Yeah yeah missiles are awesome wtfpwnbbsauce.
Try actually fitting a Caldari ship one time. I just trained Amarr Cruiser, and Amarr ships are a dream to fit in comparison.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.12 17:09:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 12/08/2008 17:13:43
Not a whine, the whining is done elsewhere.
This is a whine thread. It is not our fault that you are in denial. Let me quote the dev blog for you.
"Attention! The modifications discussed below are all subject to change, based on player input and testing experience"
Did you miss that!? Maybe you're colorblind, or something I don't know. Your time would be much better spent analyzing the alleged issues with blaster ships and providing graphs and numbers to back up your theories. You've just joined a not so exclusive club of total morons who ***** about everything when they could be getting their way by simply proving their points. To your credit at least you can properly utilize the english language, which puts you at the top of their class.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
khosta
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Posted - 2008.08.12 17:32:00 -
[9]
Thanks for the replies so far. Definitely swung me in favour of training Caldari.
I did think about making graphs showing how a reduction in webifier effectiveness has an adverse effect on tracking, and of DPS graphs showing torps to be king all the way from 0km to 30km once a few gunnery misses had been taken into account, but I think that would be too much work to prove what is intuitively obvious, and I feel no need to prove anything to anyone.
I also thought about the possibility of CCP counter buffing blasters to make up for the webifier nerf, but the example from the damp ships is too fresh in my memory.
We all know Caldari ships are very good with few skillpoints, so it wont take much time to train up the race with no counter to their weapons.
As for the 'making money' point, that again is a reason to train Caldari. One more Raven in space joining that majority that CCP like to please.
I did actually expect the odd reason to not train Caldari, as I was in two minds about it, so thanks once again for making the decision obvious 
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Sarin Adler
Caldari
Saturn Ammo
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Posted - 2008.08.12 18:04:00 -
[10]
Good class but still trolling.
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khosta
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Posted - 2008.08.12 18:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sarin Adler
Good class but still trolling.
Thanks, theres another reason. Any attempt to draw attention to overpowered aspects of the Caldari is considered trolling.
Very interesting that no replies have appeared showing how Caldari are weaker. Except the single mention of fitting problems. Well I have another character who soloed 0.0 exploration sites in a drake with level 4 skills in everything, and had no fitting problems whatsoever. Perhaps the fitting issue is with having max damage, max tank, and tackle all at once? Well I have found that gunnery races have to make tradeoffs too, but nothing that would have allowed solo 0.0 exploration sites with a pure tech 1 fit.
Will continue to monitor this thread for reasons not to train Caldari.
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Jenny' JoJo
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:00:00 -
[12]
Hey Guys!My 1000dps Torp raven does 50DPS to a afterburner hac. WTF?
Refresh to see next real life CCP Sig(25 total) |
Srioghal moDhream
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Posted - 2008.08.12 20:03:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Srioghal moDhream on 12/08/2008 20:05:59
Originally by: khosta
Originally by: Sarin Adler
Good class but still trolling.
Thanks, theres another reason. Any attempt to draw attention to overpowered aspects of the Caldari is considered trolling.
Very interesting that no replies have appeared showing how Caldari are weaker. Except the single mention of fitting problems. Well I have another character who soloed 0.0 exploration sites in a drake with level 4 skills in everything, and had no fitting problems whatsoever. Perhaps the fitting issue is with having max damage, max tank, and tackle all at once? Well I have found that gunnery races have to make tradeoffs too, but nothing that would have allowed solo 0.0 exploration sites with a pure tech 1 fit.
Will continue to monitor this thread for reasons not to train Caldari.
Why would you use nano's or blasters for pve, especially in plexes? First MWD don't work in deadspace plexes, second blasters have too poor of range to use for pve.
but any way a raven with 1 missile velocity rig and missile range rig and MAX skills would fire a torp flying at 3800is m/s for a little over 10 seconds.
Target is 20km away going 2000 m/s. Torp relative velocity is now around 1800m/s giving it an effective range of 19.5 km to hit the target. So no chance to hit it unless you are flying right at the raven. From my experience torps do not make any attempt to predict where a ship might fly it just goes right at the ship (hence the unguided) so ships can still out fly a torp easily, and that does not even bring into question the explosion velocity which unless your are moving extremely slow or your sig is 5,000,000 you are not taking full damage.
Keep in mind I know nothing of which I speak, I just spout off crap and once it a while it is close to being right
(usually it is wrong).
edit: forgot a part of my thought in the there.
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Cyb3r Thr3at
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.08.13 04:41:00 -
[14]
I went the other way around.. sold my Caldari(Raven)char & started fresh with Gallente & could'nt be happier! Guns will alway's rule, & if your prob is with Blasters.. then train for Autocannon's! I did.
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Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.08.13 05:54:00 -
[15]
everyone knows caldari is easy mode in pve, if thats what you want Khosta, yes train for caldari ships.
I doubt CCP would make caldari the 1on1 pvp race ontop of haveing the easiest pve. Even if you dont, it just doesnt seem right, and for that very reason caldari will never be the king of pvp encounters in 1on1 /small gangs.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.13 08:25:00 -
[16]
I would say that if you are not working on Amarr ships right now, you are an idiot.
If you think Missles are gonna be fantastic, the Sac eats Cerbs unless the cerb is 100 kms off. . .which is relativly rare in roamings. . .
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GO BLUE!! |
Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2008.08.13 10:41:00 -
[17]
PvP and Missiles dont mix. 'nuf said.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
khosta
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Posted - 2008.08.13 12:11:00 -
[18]
It looks like CCP has noticed some problems with missiles and are now putting them under scrutiny on test servers. A much better EVE could come from going down this path, with clearly defined roles for the different races. The days of Ravens being the best/only choice from 0km to 30km could be coming to an end. Excellent news.
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Tian Jade
Amarr
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.13 12:22:00 -
[19]
Me and my Pulse Lasers totally agree with the above poster. Please train Caldari and shield tank as much as possible.
Thanks.
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Florio
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.08.13 12:46:00 -
[20]
boost defenders?
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Sarin Adler
Caldari
Saturn Ammo
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Posted - 2008.08.13 13:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Arkadrell
everyone knows caldari is easy mode in pve, if thats what you want Khosta, yes train for caldari ships.
Sure... as armor tanking & drones is not easier... Domi is the best AFK mission runner and you need less skills to do it fine than a Raven (Drake would be to slow). Myths of EVE (I use both Caldari & Gallente).
Missiles have some advantages over guns sure, specially in small gangs warfare, because they become useless at "blob" levels & long range. I agree that torps are very usefull now on PVP, but still are NOT what the OP wants make them to be (the awesomeness), sure blasters got ridiculous optimals & tracking problems, but torps can't hit a cruiser, and not even a BS for full damage (unless you use target painters). Also Caldari ships are the slowest, and you will have problems to cath your enemies (hence the longer range).
It's up to you to train or not Caldari, but please don't troll, Caldari is not the awesomeness and only available option to PVP, not now and not even after the unfinished patch (which probably will change missiles too).
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.08.13 17:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Divad Ginleek
Its called making money.
In the short term yes, but destroy the balance of a game and you loose long term profitability.
For instance, they could make the main server act like singularity (cheap stuff everywhere whee!) and you would have a VERY happy population, for a while, then it would get really boring really quickly and subscriptions would drop off.
If CCP were to move in the dirrection of giving one race all the goodies just because most players play that race then it would long term remove variaty and make things pretty dull for even the caldari players. What is the fun of having a vastly supperior PvP ship if everyone else has it too?
If Caldari became the only viable choice, then people will stop bothering to play.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.08.13 18:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Florio
boost defenders?
Defenders will never be truly effective against missiles.
If we split missiles into close-range and long-range versions, then simple reaction times and the missile flight times mean that Defenders won't really do anything against rockets, HAMs and torps.
So a boost to Defenders will only really affect long-range missiles. But missile sniping is already very niche, so I don't seeing nerfing it with a Defender boost being particularly reasonable. Or useful.
What people probably want is a counter to HAMs and torps, so some sort of anti-missile ewar might be a better idea. But CCP has said that missiles will be changed if the web/speed changes go through, so we'll have to wait and see, really.
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khosta
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Florio
boost defenders?
Cannot be boosted enough and a flawed idea anyway. A real easy solution for CCP which makes use of both script and the missile support skills, would be to introduce a new script for tracking disruptors.
Simple, effective, balanced (affects all launchers and turrets) and very easy to implement.
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.13 19:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: khosta
Originally by: Florio
boost defenders?
Cannot be boosted enough and a flawed idea anyway. A real easy solution for CCP which makes use of both script and the missile support skills, would be to introduce a new script for tracking disruptors.
Simple, effective, balanced (affects all launchers and turrets) and very easy to implement.
There's no balance in your statement when you consider that there are no modules to increase explosion velocity and decrease radius. You would also have to consider the fact that Caldari ships require their mid slots for tanking so fitting such a module would be more costly. I'm not against the idea, I'm actually for it. It just needs careful consideration, and if it is indeed implemented missiles need to be immune to smart bombs.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.08.14 00:32:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 14/08/2008 00:32:37
*hiccup*
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
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