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[MEGA THREAD] The Amarr problem

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Author	Topic
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 15:59:00 - [61] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 15/08/2008 16:00:09 7.5% ROF to minnie ships won't fix anything. Lets say you have a tempest. It does 960 DPS at 3 + 20km with RF EMP (3 Gyros, 800s, max skills). That same tempest does 498 damage at 23km (nearly half of it drones). A raven can do 1200 at 30km. An abaddon or geddon can do 800-900 at 45km. a little "12.5%" means nothing, honestly. Projectiles need a complete rework.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:03:00 - [62] Originally by: AstroPhobic Amarr is borderline overpowered, and you want to make ALL of your ships useful? HA. Dream on. Minmatar boost patch is next. I can't believe you're whining about some useless ships when your other ships are dominating.. Hey, leave our thread alone you minmatar troll! This thread is about fixing broken ships. They are broken independent of the performance of our other ships.
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:04:00 - [63] Originally by: Siddy Geddon needs that 5% rof changed to 7,5% rof bonus, and preferably 20% to cap reduction Abaddon needs Bigger drone bay and more armor HP. Megapulses needs more tracking, its ben issue since day 1. Maybe slight damage boost to tacyons, not worth using at the moment. That whuld fix it, yeah. /thread
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:07:00 - [64] ... There's an Amarr problem?
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:08:00 - [65] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:10:00 - [66] Edited by: Lili Lu on 15/08/2008 16:11:13 ok additionally give projectile a little more optimal. but i'm sick of major nerfs. damps were destroyed, nos was destroyed. Webs may be getting destroyed. CCP needs to take smaller steps not complete reworks until and if those smaller steps prove useless. ALso I edited my post above in response to Astro
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:10:00 - [67] Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 15/08/2008 16:11:11 Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 15/08/2008 16:00:09 7.5% ROF to minnie ships won't fix anything. Lets say you have a tempest. It does 960 DPS at 3 + 20km with RF EMP (3 Gyros, 800s, max skills). That same tempest does 498 damage at 23km (nearly half of it drones). You lost me on your math here. If it does 960 at 3 with a 20km falloff, at 23, only its turret DPS should be halved. You state that "nearly half" of its DPS at that range is coming from drones, which would be static at any range. Since I don't know how much "nearly half" is, I'm going to call it half - 249 damage. So at 3KM its turrets were doing 960-249 = 711 damage. So that's halved at 23KM = 355.5 + 249 drone damage = 604.5.
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:16:00 - [68] Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 15/08/2008 16:16:36 This thread is nothing but a random swing in the dark to blanket boost Amarr. Everything I've read so far suggests that most people don't know what they're talking about. Amarr ships do suffer issues, but on average, aren't any worse than the ships of other races. That's because every ship in the game faces one common problem: another ship can do the same job. As an example, talking about any changes to specific AF is incredibly stupid when the entire class is worthless for the same exact reason. No matter what stats you give them, they will die to ships that are bigger and better. You can boost damage by 50% and it wouldn't matter when a tech 1 cruiser that's cheaper will take you to school. I would say the vast majority of any valid Amarr complaints could be absolved by stretching the signature radius spectrum. Don't know what I'm talking about? Click Here I made that a while ago to demonstrate this point. So go ahead, change all the stats you want. It won't matter because you have FIFTY ships with an average of 40m signature radius (+/- 18). Its tactically insignificant when you take microwarpdrives out of the equation, which is why everything comes down to speed, followed by agility. Fleet battles were somewhat balanced by the need to individually tackle the enemy ships, but now you have Interdictors and HICs. Anyone who brings a Inty/AF/Frigate to the fight is essentially a worthless idiot. The only way you can say they're better off having said ship, is when you compare it to the scenario when the pilot doesn't even show up. And with the size/lag of some huge fights these days, even that much is questionable.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:20:00 - [69] I would love a second mid slot for the retribution. Even if most think cruisers are better I love flying the ship and a second mid will let me do so much more than the 5th high lets me do.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:22:00 - [70] Originally by: Misina Arlath Two major fixes I want for Amarr ships. First off, the "bonus" to cap usage on guns is redicilous. No other races have a bonus added as a crutch to their ships to simply make them able to operate their guns. Do Caldari need CPU bonus to their ships to fit launcher? Does Gallente need Grid bonus to their ship to fit blasters? Why should Amarr need Cap bonus to ship to fire lasers? If the lasers drain so much Cap that a bonus is needed, then the Cap usage bonus to the ship should be a passive bonus to Amarr ships, or the cap usage for lasers should be lowered. Lowering the cap usage on lasers would make it easier to use them on other race ships, but so what? Can't Amarr already fit launchers, blasters, railguns, artillery and autocannons as they please? Lower the Cap usage on lasers, or give ALL Amarr ships a passive bonus to how much cap the lasers drain, and give the ships a useful 2nd ship bonus. Caldari, Gallente and Minamtar ships all have 2 bonuses that are greatly useful, such as extra drone damage, better tracking, improved optimal or falloff ranges, improved damage et.c. Where Amarr gets a crap bonus to Cap usage on guns and a damage bonus, other ships get a bonus to damage AND to track speed or ranges. W.T.F? Also, though perhaps a detail, just like "Reload all" when you right click your weapon modules while in space, please add a "Change all crystals to..." feature in the same menu. As much as I love flying the Amarr ships, the "bonus" to the turret cap usage makes me die a little inside everytime I see it. The reason is lasers WERE (and if you overlook cap still are) so powerful that people were sticking them on EVERY ship in the game regardless of bonuses for them or not. Thus the cap usage of lasers was upped considerably (doubled if I'm not mistaken) and many amarrian ships were given a bonus to either their cap or cap use of lasers. This essentially ammounted for quite some time to 1 bonus and the "Can use lasers" quality. Then we saw the humble Apoc - long looked upon with scorn suddenly become PWNsauce at fleet warfare when the cap bonus was built in (giving it the strongest sub capital capacitor in the game) and being handed a range bonus on a silver platter to boot. Amarr ships are tricky to balance just like caldari. Their weapons of choice are unquestionably powerful - often the best in terms of effective mid to long range dps out there. Their armor is often incredibly thick. Gank and the ability to stand up under withering fire for longer than most are the best racial attributes associated with the Amarrian line. The balance must be carefully watched with Amarr - their damage output is often staggering and their large number of low slots means if the cap problem is resolved natively on the ship, vessels like the abbadon suddenly lose any downsides they have. Sure an abaddon caps out in a minute or two under guns alone without cap mods, but in return you can achieve 35K or more armor with stout resists and deliver absolutely PUNISHING dps. This isn't to say there aren't ships in the Amarrian line that don't need work, but until at least one race can point to their entire linup and and truthfully say they have no glaring weaknesses among any of their ships there isn't much credibility for the "me first because I'm me" argument.

AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:25:00 - [71] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey You lost me on your math here. If it does 960 at 3 with a 20km falloff, at 23, only its turret DPS should be halved. You didn't account for hit quality (EFT doesn't either). I've posted it time and time again, and if you really need me to, I'll post it again. Long story short, it scales linearly with falloff. At optimal + falloff, your hit quality averages .78x. Multiply that by falloff, you get 38.5% effective DPS at optimal + falloff. Drones do a little bit more than 40% of the damage at 23km.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:27:00 - [72] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Hey, leave our thread alone you minmatar troll! I'm outright offended. I can fly and t2 fit any amarr subcap, so don't act like an amarr boost would hurt me. There are other balance issues that need fixing FIRST. Quote: This thread is about fixing broken ships. They are broken independent of the performance of our other ships. K, why don't you start with the broken RACE then? Hint: It starts with an M.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:29:00 - [73] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs. lol. This delivers. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:30:00 - [74] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey You lost me on your math here. If it does 960 at 3 with a 20km falloff, at 23, only its turret DPS should be halved. You state that "nearly half" of its DPS at that range is coming from drones, which would be static at any range. Since I don't know how much "nearly half" is, I'm going to call it half - 249 damage. So at 3KM its turrets were doing 960-249 = 711 damage. So that's halved at 23KM = 355.5 + 249 drone damage = 604.5. The thing is, at optimal+falloff, you don't do 50% damage (which miss change suggests). You do 39.5% damage due to hit quality degrading. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
SurrenderMonkey	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: SurrenderMonkey You lost me on your math here. If it does 960 at 3 with a 20km falloff, at 23, only its turret DPS should be halved. You state that "nearly half" of its DPS at that range is coming from drones, which would be static at any range. Since I don't know how much "nearly half" is, I'm going to call it half - 249 damage. So at 3KM its turrets were doing 960-249 = 711 damage. So that's halved at 23KM = 355.5 + 249 drone damage = 604.5. The thing is, at optimal+falloff, you don't do 50% damage (which miss change suggests). You do 39.5% damage due to hit quality degrading. Fair enough. Is there an equation for HQ degradation with range (and/or tracking, if it happens there too) anywhere?
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:32:00 - [76] Originally by: Lili Lu Edited by: Lili Lu on 15/08/2008 16:11:13 ok additionally give projectile a little more optimal. but i'm sick of major nerfs. damps were destroyed, nos was destroyed. Webs may be getting destroyed. CCP needs to take smaller steps not complete reworks until and if those smaller steps prove useless. ALso I edited my post above in response to Astro Autocannons need an optimal between pulse and blasters. I worked out some pretty nice numbers (before I learned the horror of hit quality - dear god), and I think I put 800mm IIs with a base optimal of 18km. The numbers looked really nice they did - perhaps coupled with 25-30% more falloff and a small DPS increase to separate the tiers (Yes, auto tiers do not scale as well as any other weapon) would go a long way to fixing minnie. Arties need something... alpha seems like the best plan but CCP doesn't like it. A few minnie ships need some fixing (Muninn... phoon shield/armor at the least, 5 launchers would be sex, a second decent t1 frig would be nice), but I assure you, the problem is projectiles.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:33:00 - [77] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Fair enough. Is there an equation for HQ degradation with range (and/or tracking, if it happens there too) anywhere? No HQ degradation as long as you're in optimal regardless of range. Tracking degrades hit quality, naturally, but I don't have the formula at hand. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Megan Maynard Minmatar 7th Cav	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:34:00 - [78] Retribution: Supposed to have 1 mid. Vengeance: Rockets work fine. Omen: Are you kidding? QFT. MALLER?!?!?: NOw you are just whining to whine. Augoror: Just because one race has something doesn't mean you get it too. Curse: Nano nerf hasn't hit, shut up. Pilgrim: Needs fixin. Sentinel: NOT a bad ship, you fail. Prophacy: Again, are you trolling for fun here? Crystals: No one has the ability to change all their ammo at once, pipe down. Maybe the worst troll in a long time.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:35:00 - [79] LoL, minmatar derailing our amarr thread! Buuu! I'll go troll your threads if you dont stop! ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:35:00 - [80] Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Fair enough. Is there an equation for HQ degradation with range (and/or tracking, if it happens there too) anywhere? I think there is at scrapheap. Simply: At optimal: Hit qual ranges from 1.5 to 0.5, with 1% chance of 3x, averaging (1.02)(1.0) 102% DPS. At 1 falloff: Hit qual ranges from 1.0 to 0.5, with 1% chance of 3x, averaging (.78)(.5) 38.5% DPS. At 2 falloff: I'm not postive, but I think it's 1% chance of 3x only, averaging something very small with negligable DPS.

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL, minmatar derailing our amarr thread! Buuu! I'll go troll your threads if you dont stop! You already troll our threads Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:36:00 - [82] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL, minmatar derailing our amarr thread! Buuu! I'll go troll your threads if you dont stop! I'm half amarr. I have the riiiight.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:38:00 - [83] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL, minmatar derailing our amarr thread! Buuu! I'll go troll your threads if you dont stop! I'm half amarr. I have the riiiight. You're a stinking traitor whatever way you look at it. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:38:00 - [84] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL, minmatar derailing our amarr thread! Buuu! I'll go troll your threads if you dont stop! I'm half amarr. I have the riiiight. You're a stinking traitor whatever way you look at it. QFT. also Thread successfully derailed. Seriously. Fix some of those ships. They are the crap. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Boz Well Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:39:00 - [85] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL, minmatar derailing our amarr thread! Buuu! I'll go troll your threads if you dont stop! You don't already? And I know at least a handful of us "Minmatar" have well-skilled Amarr pilots as well, (can't say the same for most of the Amarr/Caldari trolls ), so it's not like we don't understand how laserzpewpew works.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:40:00 - [86] Originally by: Cpt Branko You're a stinking traitor whatever way you look at it. AstroPhobic runs away from the RP hammer Stab Wounds told me to adapt or die... so I adapted.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:40:00 - [87] Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL, minmatar derailing our amarr thread! Buuu! I'll go troll your threads if you dont stop! You don't already? And I know at least a handful of us "Minmatar" have well-skilled Amarr pilots as well, (can't say the same for most of the Amarr/Caldari trolls ), so it's not like we don't understand how laserzpewpew works. Meh, we all know how duct tape - in rust we trust - ships work. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:44:00 - [88] Originally by: AstroPhobic Stab Wounds told me to adapt or die... so I adapted. He was trying to get you to die, geez. I assume you're the sort of person who loves letting people down, huh? Feels good to shatter someone's dreams, eh? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.08.15 16:45:00 - [89] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: AstroPhobic Stab Wounds told me to adapt or die... so I adapted. He was trying to get you to die, geez. I assume you're the sort of person who loves letting people down, huh? Feels good to shatter someone's dreams, eh? Mom always taught me to never listen to strangers.
Elhina Novae Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.08.15 17:00:00 - [90] Edited by: Elhina Novae on 15/08/2008 17:01:56 Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs. Signature worthy EDIT: Ok on a serious note. I buy that retribution is good for small ship gangs for adding the extra pew pew, but th Prophecy is imo outright a joke and its the only ship i have a problem with. Omen is fine. ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.

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