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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 13:38:00 -
[1]
Note: --> This is not yet an actual lottery, it's just to gauge the general interest for an EBank-secured lottery.
Ok, this is an idea I'm playing around with for some time now, and I'd really like to get a feeling for the potential interest in this before I actually start (or just don't because nobody cares). A lottery is nothing new, I know, but I haven't seen one like this yet:
Main differences to other lotteries:
- ISK as prizes, no items or ships --> No hassle to sell unwanted/unneeded prizes.
- Substantially higher ticket prices and prizes for the winners --> I'm thinking of around 10b for the start (value of all tickets of the lottery).
- No risk of losing ISK by me running with your money --> EBank will hold collateral for the full value of the lottery and will be able to refund all ticket buyers if anything goes wrong.
- No risk of the draw being rigged --> I'll use a well-known RL lottery to draw the winning tickets.
So the question is: Would you be interested in playing in a 'high stakes' lottery if the full value was secured by EBank? I guess most of you are looking for solid investments and opportunities to gain ISK in more reliable way though. But I would like to know if at least some of you are willing to gamble with their ISK if the prizes/chances are high enough.
I already spoke to EBank and they are willing to support me with this idea and hold the collateral. Also, I have some pretty detailed plans on how this lottery could work. But before that I'd like to ask you if most of you are just saying "I won't gamble with my money. Period." or if there is enough interest to get this running.
Please let me know if I would have a chance to sell any tickets to the MD community, or if I should just scrap that idea :-)
Also, if there are any concerns/questions you might have that I didn't think about and which would stop you from playing, feel free to just post them here. After all, this would be my first lottery :-)
Thanks!
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.15 13:45:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Shadarle on 15/08/2008 13:45:10
I think the most important part is to know a few things:
1. How much money are you taking. I wouldn't even think of participating in the lottery if you get more than a few % of the total.
2. Why is E-Bank willing to do this, what are you doing to make it worth their while.
3. A follow up to 2, why doesn't E-Bank just do this themselves.
4. Give us more details about your ideas for prizes.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.08.15 13:47:00 -
[3]
If the basis of this lottery is that EBank holds the funds (because of your lack of rep), why do they need YOU?
Secondly, even if EBank hold the funds, how do we know you won't rig the lottery so one of your ALTS wins it? Which again just returns me to, why doesn't EBank just run it?
What is your fee in % terms.
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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 13:57:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Shadarle
1. How much money are you taking. I wouldn't even think of participating in the lottery if you get more than a few % of the total.
It will be in the range of a few %, a good bit below 10% actually. I did some research on other lotteries and most of them are taking a lot more.
Originally by: Shadarle
2. Why is E-Bank willing to do this, what are you doing to make it worth their while.
I'll be paying a fee for them to hold the collateral and act as trusted party. This will be paid with the lotterie's profit, so that cuts it down a bit more.
Originally by: Shadarle
3. A follow up to 2, why doesn't E-Bank just do this themselves.
Well, you'll have to ask them I guess. I approached them with my idea, and if it works out, they will get another revenue stream (a small one in their relations though).
Originally by: Shadarle
4. Give us more details about your ideas for prizes.
Currently I have this setup planned:
- 49 Tickets for 200m each (adding up to 9.8b)
- 6 winning tickets drawn by a RL Lotto, each one will win 1.5b (adding up to 9.0b)
- So my cut of that would be 8.16% minus the fee for EBank
I find it much more appealing to just win ISK, rather than items/ships I don't really need and would have to sell.
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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 13:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: cosmoray
even if EBank hold the funds, how do we know you won't rig the lottery so one of your ALTS wins it?
Well, I'll be using the results of a RL Lotto (probably UK National Lotto). The results are published on their website, so I'd need to rig their results to cheat on my lottery :-)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Vanora Kime
Originally by: cosmoray
even if EBank hold the funds, how do we know you won't rig the lottery so one of your ALTS wins it?
Well, I'll be using the results of a RL Lotto (probably UK National Lotto). The results are published on their website, so I'd need to rig their results to cheat on my lottery :-)
That's a good choice it seems to me to go with a real lotto drawing. First time I've seen that done, though I don't follow lotto's heavily.
Though I'd say I don't see why you deserve 8%+ for what you're doing. If E-Bank was doing it all and charging 8% then sure, but honestly you're doing basically no work, don't see why you should get anywhere near 8%.
I think you gave E-Bank a good idea on a way to make more money... they should take the idea and run with it. Maybe give you a small percent of the first one or two as payment, but frankly I don't see why they'd do all of the work and then take only part of the payment. All you're doing is coming up with the idea basically.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:10:00 -
[7]
Normally we decline these kinds of requests however I don't see any problems occuring if:
1) The ISK is paid to secure the lottery before the lottery begins (rather than EBANK needing to accept the deposits
2) All lottery bids place their numbers in the same thread and edited posts are discounted
3) A National lottery system of some sort is used to stop rigging.
EBANK aren't doing this ourselves simply because we don't have the time. In an environment as above there is no risk on any part, not to the lottery runner, the gamblers or EBANK and there is minimal workload required (hold the isk prior to lottery starting, ensure bids are valid, validate winning number, ensure winner/s recieve their payment). It would take me 10 minutes max to validate the whole thing.
Personally I never liked lotteries or any form of chances based gambling (other than holdem) but I know there is a niche for it. My job isn't to encourage or discourage anyone to choose to gamble, simply to ensure the thing goes off without a hitch 
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:13:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Shadarle
Though I'd say I don't see why you deserve 8%+ for what you're doing. If E-Bank was doing it all and charging 8% then sure, but honestly you're doing basically no work, don't see why you should get anywhere near 8%.
As above we are doing very little work. The OP will be in charge of posting the lottery, the terms, recieving the isk, updating the thread with people's numbers etc, bumping the thread and even paying the winners.
EBANK have offered to charge 20% of the OP's earnings as our fee for participation. This may change for next time depending on how much workload there ends up being but it will do for now to see how we go.
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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shadarle
All you're doing is coming up with the idea basically.
It's not that this would be a new idea at all, if EBank wanted to run a lottery they could have done that already. Also, I'd be running the lottery myself, EBank would not have to do anything if it runs smoothly except in the case that I run with the money (which would be pointless because I wouldn't gain anything). In that case, they'd have to pay back the buyers with the collateral.
Everything else (keeping track of tickets, updating threads, paying back unsold lotteries, paying out prizes etc) will be done by me. As for the percentage I'd get, other lotteries that are running regularly are getting much higher cuts of the value, and people are still playing. I'm taking a smaller percentage because the value of the lottery itself is higher than the other's.
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Shadarles
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Originally by: Shadarle
Though I'd say I don't see why you deserve 8%+ for what you're doing. If E-Bank was doing it all and charging 8% then sure, but honestly you're doing basically no work, don't see why you should get anywhere near 8%.
As above we are doing very little work. The OP will be in charge of posting the lottery, the terms, recieving the isk, updating the thread with people's numbers etc, bumping the thread and even paying the winners.
EBANK have offered to charge 20% of the OP's earnings as our fee for participation. This may change for next time depending on how much workload there ends up being but it will do for now to see how we go.
I am consistently amazed at the poor business sense displayed by E-Bank.
Without you the lotto doesn't work at all. You could have demanded 80% and he'd have to take it, as he'd still be getting pretty much free money.
I notice lots of what E-Bank does is about being nice and "fair", not about making money. Definitely not a business trying to do its up-most to make profit. It's more about being liked it seems to me. I guess everyone else here should be glad about that... I personally like seeing cut-throat ruthlessness.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vanora Kime
Originally by: Shadarle
All you're doing is coming up with the idea basically.
It's not that this would be a new idea at all, if EBank wanted to run a lottery they could have done that already. Also, I'd be running the lottery myself, EBank would not have to do anything if it runs smoothly except in the case that I run with the money (which would be pointless because I wouldn't gain anything). In that case, they'd have to pay back the buyers with the collateral.
Everything else (keeping track of tickets, updating threads, paying back unsold lotteries, paying out prizes etc) will be done by me. As for the percentage I'd get, other lotteries that are running regularly are getting much higher cuts of the value, and people are still playing. I'm taking a smaller percentage because the value of the lottery itself is higher than the other's.
Yes, but you couldn't run this lottery yourself, you'd get 0 people buying tickets. The only reason a ticket will sell is because E-Bank is securing it.
Frankly I've never bought a lotto ticket in the past because people seem to think their entitled to 10%+ profits. I think the person running a lotto deserves 3-4% at most. Any more and I would refuse out of principle. Maybe others disagree. I just don't think you are doing any real amount of work to get 600 mil isk or some such. It's a few hours of work for 500+ mill isk currently.
Without using past lotto's as an excuse, why is what you're doing worth that much money?
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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadarles
Without you the lotto doesn't work at all. You could have demanded 80% and he'd have to take it
That is basically true, but there's a limit on what I'd be willing to pay. I am still 'investing' 10b in this that I can't use anywhere else, and it just wouldn't be worth it for me without a decent return 
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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle
Without using past lotto's as an excuse, why is what you're doing worth that much money?
Frankly, it is worth that much money if people buy the tickets. That is what this thread is for - to see if people are willing to gamble under these conditions. If they are not, then you might be right in the sense that I expected too much for the 'work' I'd be doing. And this goes for most other activities as well, it's worth what people are willing to pay for it. If you invest in shares, you won't be doing any work (besides from the research before investing), and your decision to invest or not eventually sets the price (or interest when talking about shares).
Also, I'm fully aware of that I might not find the most ticket buyers in MD, but if I fail to get people interested in a EBank-secured lotto here, I won't make it in Sell Orders as well.
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Banni Vinda
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:41:00 -
[14]
On the assumption that you yourself would be accepting the entry fees, rather than a third party (EBANK):
How will participants entries be confirmed? If you do it through a forum thread, what is to stop me making a post saying "I'll take number X, have sent my entry fee", but I don't actually send a fee. In other words, I'm trying to scam you.
On the other side, what if I actually did send you my entry fee, but you refused to acknowledge receipt? In this case, you're trying to scam me.
In both cases, it's your word versus mine that I did/didn't send you any money. There must be safeguards in place to protect both of us from such occurrences.
They only way to resolve such a dispute would be for at least one of us to have our API audited. Is this something you would accept?
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shadarles
I am consistently amazed at the poor business sense displayed by E-Bank.
Honestly there is no big deal. I don't have a problem with doing this. I am the actual one who will handle it not other staff. EBANK doesn't need mass financial gain in order to offer this service. As far as I am concerned advertising the EBANK brand is where the real value is.
Plus, I thought I would do something nice for someone. Sue me
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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Banni Vinda
On the assumption that you yourself would be accepting the entry fees, rather than a third party (EBANK):
How will participants entries be confirmed? If you do it through a forum thread, what is to stop me making a post saying "I'll take number X, have sent my entry fee", but I don't actually send a fee. In other words, I'm trying to scam you.
On the other side, what if I actually did send you my entry fee, but you refused to acknowledge receipt? In this case, you're trying to scam me.
In both cases, it's your word versus mine that I did/didn't send you any money. There must be safeguards in place to protect both of us from such occurrences.
They only way to resolve such a dispute would be for at least one of us to have our API audited. Is this something you would accept?
Sure, I have planned with that in mind. I will use a dedicated character for the lottery that will handle all the transactions. I'll provide EBank with the full API key for this char, so in any case of a dispute (as well if someone would claim to not have received his prize) EBank would be able to check and confirm what happened in the thread.
But I don't expect these kind of problems really, seeing that it barely happens in other lotteries at all.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:47:00 -
[17]
Good point Banni, will speak to the OP about the API.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.15 14:49:00 -
[18]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Originally by: Shadarles
I am consistently amazed at the poor business sense displayed by E-Bank.
Honestly there is no big deal. I don't have a problem with doing this. I am the actual one who will handle it not other staff. EBANK doesn't need mass financial gain in order to offer this service. As far as I am concerned advertising the EBANK brand is where the real value is.
Plus, I thought I would do something nice for someone. Sue me
Which was my entire point, you're doing this to be nice, not make money. I guess a lot of people won't mind that. I just think it's devaluing your brand to sell it so cheaply.
Charging more is a way of instilling a sense of value.
Grey Goose vodka for example was a regular vodka that had no rep when they started. They decided to charge a lot for it to make people think it was higher quality. It worked. Goose costs a lot of money and because of that people think it's the best. But I've seen many taste tests that other vodkas outperform it and cost less, but people still think Goose is better because they know they have to pay more for it.
The point? If you charge 20% then that's all you're worth and you're not too important to the process. If you charged 50-75% then you're showing off that you are that important. The reality is you're the crucial part of this entire process. Devaluing a brand is a very bad thing.
You'd have been fine if your % wasn't revealed, then you could have kept the impressions up while still getting all the advertising, etc. But it was revealed, so to me, it's become an issue you should think about. But hey, that's just my view. I'm sure we'll see many other people come along and disagree with me.
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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:13:00 -
[19]
Lotto Lotto Lotto....
EBANK's Board of Directors hear the word lotto and start pealing their faces off with their bare hands. We have had so many "We should do a Lotto Threads" start and end it's like a bad coin that never goes away.
Yes, EBANK could start a lotto, we could run it, we could make it as safe and rig free as possible and we could even program it within the EBANK software it self!
The problem is... management. We don't want to manage a lotto, we'll secure any ISK prior to the event, but we sure don't want to run it. If there is some sort of demand for this it will be voted on if we want to hold the security for this.
One question though to the OP..
What happens if people don't pick any of the numbers of the Lotto? Or does 49 Tickets represent the top number of lotto numbers in which it's more like a raffle ticket and the lotto picks the number of the ticket?
Amarr for Life |
Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SencneS
One question though to the OP..
What happens if people don't pick any of the numbers of the Lotto? Or does 49 Tickets represent the top number of lotto numbers in which it's more like a raffle ticket and the lotto picks the number of the ticket?
There are 49 tickets that would all have to be sold before I announce which RL Lotto draw will be used. I'll set a timeframe for this, and if any ticket remains unsold until that deadline, I'll refund all buyers and start over (or just quit if I really can't get a lottery sold completely).
This makes sure every draw has six winners (as the UK National Lotto draws six out of 49 balls), there will be no draws where 'noone' wins, if you meant that :-)
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:27:00 -
[21]
To the OP, now that you have thrown out the idea, got the RL lotto deal sorted out, checked via API sudit and use EBank as security.....
What is to stop me offering the same deal, but tickets cost 190M and if you pick one of the 6 tickets you still get 1.5B
Plan:
49 tickets at 190M = 9.31B
6 winners @ 1.5B = 9.0B
profit = 310M
split with EBank = 155M per group
Run lotto every week = 620M profit per month for EBank and me
All it takes is 1 sales thread per week. What is difficult about sales thread, backed by API audit!!
Under 1 hour of work per week, really earning that money!
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:33:00 -
[22]
In fact a smart person could launch a bond to raise the 9B security.
With known income of 600M per month, you could give 5% or so interest to investors and all the time money is left on deposit at EBank (doesn't matter if no interest on account).
Wouldn't even have to use your own capital.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: cosmoray
To the OP, now that you have thrown out the idea, got the RL lotto deal sorted out, checked via API sudit and use EBank as security.....
What is to stop me offering the same deal, but tickets cost 190M and if you pick one of the 6 tickets you still get 1.5B
Plan:
49 tickets at 190M = 9.31B
6 winners @ 1.5B = 9.0B
profit = 310M
split with EBank = 155M per group
Run lotto every week = 620M profit per month for EBank and me
All it takes is 1 sales thread per week. What is difficult about sales thread, backed by API audit!!
Under 1 hour of work per week, really earning that money!
If you'd be willing to take this on, more people would play. I know I would 
Originally by: Shadarle
You're a worthless wanna-be scammer who has had absolutely zero success doing anything here... so why should anyone care what you say.
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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: cosmoray
To the OP, now that you have thrown out the idea, got the RL lotto deal sorted out, checked via API sudit and use EBank as security.....
What is to stop me offering the same deal, but tickets cost 190M and if you pick one of the 6 tickets you still get 1.5B
Nothing really. As I said, lotteries are nothing new at all, everyone can basically start one. And if you do, you'll have to reveal your rules/conditions in your sales thread, so the next guy could step up, 'steal' the idea and undercut you again.
But in order to make your calculation happen, you'd need to sell all tickets in a week, which I doubt will happen at start (if at all). I don't expect to run a lottery every week, I guess it will be more like 1-2 times a month.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:41:00 -
[25]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 15/08/2008 15:45:04
Originally by: Vanora Kime
Originally by: cosmoray
To the OP, now that you have thrown out the idea, got the RL lotto deal sorted out, checked via API sudit and use EBank as security.....
What is to stop me offering the same deal, but tickets cost 190M and if you pick one of the 6 tickets you still get 1.5B
Nothing really. As I said, lotteries are nothing new at all, everyone can basically start one. And if you do, you'll have to reveal your rules/conditions in your sales thread, so the next guy could step up, 'steal' the idea and undercut you again.
But in order to make your calculation happen, you'd need to sell all tickets in a week, which I doubt will happen at start (if at all). I don't expect to run a lottery every week, I guess it will be more like 1-2 times a month.
Thanks for the idea pumpkin but like you said it's nothing new, we'll take it from here.
Originally by: Shadarle
You're a worthless wanna-be scammer who has had absolutely zero success doing anything here... so why should anyone care what you say.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.15 16:16:00 -
[26]
Originally by: SencneS
Lotto Lotto Lotto....
EBANK's Board of Directors hear the word lotto and start pealing their faces off with their bare hands. We have had so many "We should do a Lotto Threads" start and end it's like a bad coin that never goes away.
It's not just a bad coin, I'd outright veto (and have done before) any such idea that isn't financial services related.
Of course EBANK can do this, that, the other, and whatever, but all it means is time spent developing diminishing returns, and time spent disallowing other people to do stuff, and subsequently less time spent innovating. It'd basically transforming EBANK from a bank to a faceless conglomerate that's a jack of all trades and master of none.
It just won't happen. EBANK is a bank now. The only modification I could possibly allow beyond it being a bank is an umbrella financial services organisation. Beyond that, sorry, nope.
Re: the thread, I have no problem people securing ISK in EBANK. It's neither here nor there to us. Doing anything beyond that I have a problem with.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.15 16:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Originally by: SencneS
Lotto Lotto Lotto....
EBANK's Board of Directors hear the word lotto and start pealing their faces off with their bare hands. We have had so many "We should do a Lotto Threads" start and end it's like a bad coin that never goes away.
It's not just a bad coin, I'd outright veto (and have done before) any such idea that isn't financial services related.
Of course EBANK can do this, that, the other, and whatever, but all it means is time spent developing diminishing returns, and time spent disallowing other people to do stuff, and subsequently less time spent innovating. It'd basically transforming EBANK from a bank to a faceless conglomerate that's a jack of all trades and master of none.
It just won't happen. EBANK is a bank now. The only modification I could possibly allow beyond it being a bank is an umbrella financial services organisation. Beyond that, sorry, nope.
Re: the thread, I have no problem people securing ISK in EBANK. It's neither here nor there to us. Doing anything beyond that I have a problem with.
So just to see if I understand you, you'll let E-Bank get involved in lotto's, just as long as E-Bank don't make all the profit from it?
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Banni Vinda
Minmatar
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:01:00 -
[28]
No, what he means is we won't develop any features specifically to support it. For example, we are developing an exchange to improve the efficiency of the share market. That is a concept directly in-line with our stated aims. Developing a lottery hosting system is not.
The use of EBANK to secure a lottery in this case is an example of emergent use by customers, not of us wanting to provide a lottery service.
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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Shadarle
So just to see if I understand you, you'll let E-Bank get involved in lotto's, just as long as E-Bank don't make all the profit from it?
Profit would indicate we had some sort of expense to begin with. In this case there was nothing put forth by EBANK. All we're doing is holding the ISK in security. Which is something we charge everyone for. For that we only demand a small fee, because holding the ISK is not what people are playing for. They are playing for a chance to win x amount of ISK. The fact we're holding the ISK simply puts their mind at ease that the host is not going to run off with the full amount.
Like Ricdic said, depending on what is required of EBANK next time we may want 50% of the host's "Profit".
Besides from what I understand if cosmoray, anyone could start up the same thing but with higher stakes and we'll do it for them too. It's not like we are signing over exclusive rights to run a lotto with EBANK security.
Amarr for Life |
Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vanora Kime
I will use a dedicated character for the lottery that will handle all the transactions. I'll provide EBank with the full API key for this char, so in any case of a dispute (as well if someone would claim to not have received his prize) EBank would be able to check and confirm what happened in the thread.
I hope you do this, with the full understanding that limited or full API is for all characters on that account, and not just for a single character.
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