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Vanora Kime
Caldari
Reapage Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:32:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: Vanora Kime
... API key ...
I hope you do this, with the full understanding that limited or full API is for all characters on that account, and not just for a single character.
Yes I do know that, but as Banni Vinda pointed out, this is the only way to ensure EBank can track all of the transactions if there should be a problem. Except creating a new account just for this maybe. Also, this is why I will give that API key only to EBank in case of a dispute, trusting them to keep everything not lottery-related private.
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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.08.15 17:50:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Shadarle
I must say, E-Bank has done an amazing job recruiting a ton of people who are all happy to make 20% instead of 50-75% profit.
You're still looking at it as if we have put something forth which we haven't.. It seems like you're taking the thoughts and feeling for a single person and trying to project them in the same position as an entire organization.
If I had the same rep as EBANK and someone came to me personally and asked me to personally secure the plan. You would bet your bottom dollar I'd ask for a lot more.
EBANK has said plenty of times we're here to help the secondary market grow and become a major part of EVE, something CCP can no longer ignore. EBANK, for most if not all of us, is there because we want to make a change, be part of something bigger, have an impact on EVE, not for turning over massive profit.
Amarr for Life |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.15 18:06:00 -
[33]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Shadarle
I must say, E-Bank has done an amazing job recruiting a ton of people who are all happy to make 20% instead of 50-75% profit.
You're still looking at it as if we have put something forth which we haven't.. It seems like you're taking the thoughts and feeling for a single person and trying to project them in the same position as an entire organization.
I have to say you're wrong on both counts.
On the second, every E-Bank person posting so far has said they are happy to make a mere 20% off of this or some similar statement. So I'm taking the thoughts and comments of a bunch of people, not a single person.
As to the first point, you are completely misunderstanding my point. I know you haven't put forth a single thing, that has nothing to do with anything. I wouldn't matter if you had spent 4 months developing a lotto system, as the lotto system really doesn't matter. All that matters to a successful lottery is a good rep for the person running it and that people find the prizes attractive or find it fun to do. The reputation being the make or break part of the equation. E-Bank brings the rep, which means without E-Bank there is no auction in this case. Yet E-Bank makes a mere 20%?
From the point of the view of someone who would be buying a lotto ticket, why would I want to pay this random guy 80% of the profits? I'd rather pay E-Bank 80% of the profits and this guy 20%. In fact I refuse to pay this guy 80% of 8%. I'd pay him 80% of 3-4% probably, but I'd much rather pay both E-Bank and him 2.5% of the profit, or even 3% and 3% perhaps. The less money he makes the more likely I'd be to buy tickets. This is why I've been raising this point over and over, is because it makes a difference on the number of tickets I'd consider buying.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2008.08.15 18:22:00 -
[34]
The level of work you would have to do, and the fact that you bring absolutely nothing to the table to get this off the ground does not warrant you earning 640M every time there is a draw.
I bet there is no more than an hours work for each lotto.
Document saved in MS Word, change the date. Manage the thread over two days (most people read the threads anyway).
Easy money.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.15 19:56:00 -
[35]
Shad, I appreciate your concerns.
However, EBANK has had a long history already of holding ISK as collateral for others, and we charge only a tiny fee for it. The way we see it, is it's the prerogative of our customer - if he wants to lock ISK away as collateral, we set up a Shared account with a teller/director, revoke withdrawal rights on that account to the customer and it's considered 'locked away'. The conditions for unlocking that means we have to check the forums to see how to go about it, then sobeit. There is no charge beyond that. No interest is charged, no money is lost to EBANK, no nothing other than simply meeting the obligations we have been set out to do: hold the ISK.
So while I appreciate your concerns that EBANK should be charging a fortune for providing security on the ISK, and is willingly only charging a tiny amount of money, we're not in fact underwriting or endorsing the business at all, we're just holding the ISK.
As such you can think of it as a cost of providing the service in some way. EBANK has to be trustworthy to be a bank, anyway, and it's there to allow you to do more with your ISK than you can do in game, and we have tried to achieve it to be as safe a haven for ISK as possible given game mechanics.
But be very clear that EBANK does not take on a single bit of responsibility beyond holding the ISK securely. If this dude decides to scam at payout, and we provide the ISK back to him legitimately and he consequently walks away, that is not EBANK's problem. As such, I'll reiterate, in no way would EBANK be endorsing or underwriting the venture, so it wouldn't actually be totally, 100% secured by EBANK.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
CornerStoner
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Posted - 2008.08.15 23:05:00 -
[36]
Edited by: CornerStoner on 15/08/2008 23:06:57
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
... If this dude decides to scam at payout, and we provide the ISK back to him legitimately and he consequently walks away, that is not EBANK's problem. As such, I'll reiterate, in no way would EBANK be endorsing or underwriting the venture, so it wouldn't actually be totally, 100% secured by EBANK.
So what's the point of EBank being involved at all? I wouldn't say it was secured by EBank in any sense. He can scam before or after the payout.
Like others have said...A lottery has to be secured by someone with a reputation. Something the OP is lacking.
edit:content
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.16 00:27:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Shadarle on 16/08/2008 00:26:57
Originally by: CornerStoner
Edited by: CornerStoner on 15/08/2008 23:06:57
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
... If this dude decides to scam at payout, and we provide the ISK back to him legitimately and he consequently walks away, that is not EBANK's problem. As such, I'll reiterate, in no way would EBANK be endorsing or underwriting the venture, so it wouldn't actually be totally, 100% secured by EBANK.
So what's the point of EBank being involved at all? I wouldn't say it was secured by EBank in any sense. He can scam before or after the payout.
Like others have said...A lottery has to be secured by someone with a reputation. Something the OP is lacking.
edit:content
Agreed! What the hell? Did you actually mean to say that Mr H? You seriously will give the money back to this guy if something goes wrong, just so he can actually scam us? The entire point of it being secured by E-Bank is that E-Bank will be securing it... if there is no security this could turn out VERY ugly for E-Bank.
I was wondering why people from E-Bank kept making it sound like E-Bank would be doing almost nothing. Obviously if you were securing the lottery you would be having to make the payouts to people as well. Otherwise he's getting access to all the money to potentially scam it.
EDIT> Thus my entire point about you guys not getting a high enough percentage.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.16 01:35:00 -
[38]
We are securing the isk. We will make sure the winner gets the isk. We will make sure the winner is correctly determined. By we in all of the above I mean myself as I will be overseeing the operation.
As long as all the listed securities are in place there is no way (that I can see) for a scam to take place.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.08.16 01:43:00 -
[39]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 16/08/2008 01:51:47
Originally by: Mr Horizontal
... If this dude decides to scam at payout, and we provide the ISK back to him legitimately and he consequently walks away, that is not EBANK's problem. As such, I'll reiterate, in no way would EBANK be endorsing or underwriting the venture, so it wouldn't actually be totally, 100% secured by EBANK.
I always knew it that reading his posts would pay off in the end.
Horizontal thinking has its downsides, this is Mr Boredom's second greatest contribution to my compilation of amusing posts.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.08.16 01:47:00 -
[40]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
We are securing the isk. We will make sure the winner gets the isk. We will make sure the winner is correctly determined. By we in all of the above I mean myself as I will be overseeing the operation.
As long as all the listed securities are in place there is no way (that I can see) for a scam to take place.
So what's left for the OP to do? Cash out? hahah
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.16 02:20:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vanora Kime
playing in a 'high stakes' lottery if the full value was secured by EBank?
To answer the question itself: yes, if 1) it's guaranteed to go through before I sent the ISK 2) it somewhat follows RL low-entry high-prize model.
In my opinion the most annoying thing (other than trustability) in common Eve lotteries is that you are supposed to send the ISK, then watch the thread now and then just to see the OP refunded everything because he didn't get enough participants.
So, a suggestion: make it gamble for yourself too.
Allow low-cost entry (say 10M or 50M), offer high jackpot (10B-50B), and promise the lottery will run on given date regardless of the amount of participants.
Just calculate the odds to be such that you'll win something on average, although run low risk to lose much.
-Lasse
who did something similar quite a while ago
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2008.08.16 02:24:00 -
[42]
I might. Losing money is fun, all the time.
miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.16 03:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
We are securing the isk. We will make sure the winner gets the isk. We will make sure the winner is correctly determined. By we in all of the above I mean myself as I will be overseeing the operation.
As long as all the listed securities are in place there is no way (that I can see) for a scam to take place.
Ok, so you're going to get all of the money. You're going to keep an eye on who has which numbers, you're going to watch for the results, and you're going to pay out the winners and give the rest to the person running it.
But you aren't actually running the lotto?  Hmmm... sure sounds like you're basically doing everything to me. Yet I keep hearing all you're doing is securing the money, that's why there is only a minimal fee being charged. But that's obviously not true because securing the money involves a bit more work (read: doing almost everything that running the lotto entails).
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.16 05:02:00 -
[44]
Not sure why it's so concerning to you Shadarle. You know we do have a director position available that you are most welcome to apply for.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.08.16 06:20:00 -
[45]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Not sure why it's so concerning to you Shadarle. You know we do have a director position available that you are most welcome to apply for.
lol
He would refuse to meet the security qualifications....
--
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.16 06:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Not sure why it's so concerning to you Shadarle.
Because I find it very suspicious when a person or organization does anything for free or reduced prices for no apparent reason. There are no free lunches. And frankly I don't buy the given excuse that you're doing this one out of the kindness of your heart. Mostly because it would mean you aren't a very good business person. I've never seen so many people continually try to support a position that they want to be payed far less than they deserved to be. That is just extremely fishy to me.
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
You know we do have a director position available that you are most welcome to apply for.
The main reason I will continue to decline (despite your many offers) is that I don't have the time to devote to it that it would require. But even if I did, it would work, because I'd continue on where Shar left off. I would see myself as a watchdog and frankly that doesn't seem to fit inside E-Bank. If someone as tenacious as Shar was too annoyed to continue then I'd run into the same issues rather quickly. But as I said, I don't have the time so it doesn't really matter.
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.16 07:28:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Shadarle
Because I find it very suspicious when a person or organization does anything for free or reduced prices for no apparent reason.
Well there wasn't really a precedent set. As I said in my first post this is more about giving it a shot and seeing where it goes. We haven't offered a security in something like this before because it often involves EBANK needing to be the ones recieving deposits. In this case we would have the cash on hand before deposits even started so the risk and workload is greatly minimised.
Quote:
And frankly I don't buy the given excuse that you're doing this one out of the kindness of your heart. Mostly because it would mean you aren't a very good business person. I've never seen so many people continually try to support a position that they want to be payed far less than they deserved to be. That is just extremely fishy to me.
Like I said it is an initial attempt to see how things go. I actually expected the OP to be taking something closer to a 10% with us taking about 20% of their earnings (200m for 10-15 minutes work is perfectly fine. The percentage however is a little bit lower but still for the amount of work required on my part the return is quite acceptable.
I'm not sure how you interpret earning over 100m in 10-15 minutes with zero risk to be poor business sense. Sure we could have taken a bigger cut but this is a trial run. Now I should note I offered this to the OP without advising the board. I considered it to be a win/win situation, it would take a small amount of my time to regulate however it would earn both income and advertising for EBANK. You may not value this the same way as I do however that doesn't make it wrong.
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
But even if I did, it would work, because I'd continue on where Shar left off. I would see myself as a watchdog and frankly that doesn't seem to fit inside E-Bank.
It kind of does. Having Shar internally really was helpful in that he did address important issues and did raise alarms when they were needed. Sure we had some heated discussions, and the movement of some of these into MD was probably the main gripe I had. Someone like Shar (not counting the MD portion) is actually the kind of replacement we will be looking for.
Anyway, not trying to force you into a position just claryfing that for our new director we will be looking for someone that isn't afraid to speak their mind rather than an avid EBANK fanboy. (tho we love the fanboys  )
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.16 13:50:00 -
[48]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
I'm not sure how you interpret earning over 100m in 10-15 minutes with zero risk to be poor business sense.
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Sure we could have taken a bigger
That's how.
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Anyway, not trying to force you into a position just claryfing that for our new director we will be looking for someone that isn't afraid to speak their mind rather than an avid EBANK fanboy. (tho we love the fanboys )
The problem is and the point I was trying to make is that you've already shown through what happened with Shar that any such person will end up having to argue with you quite a bit. There will be lots of heated conversations. And in the end you will win and the other person will get fed up and quit.
Really doesn't make it a position any intelligent person would want to get themselves into.
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2008.08.16 14:13:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Vanora Kime
EBank-secured Lottery - Would you play?
No.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.08.16 14:18:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Not sure why it's so concerning to you Shadarle.
Because I find it very suspicious when a person or organization does anything for free or reduced prices for no apparent reason. There are no free lunches. And frankly I don't buy the given excuse that you're doing this one out of the kindness of your heart. Mostly because it would mean you aren't a very good business person. I've never seen so many people continually try to support a position that they want to be payed far less than they deserved to be. That is just extremely fishy to me.
What we have here is an Amish guy by the name of Shadarle that sunk years of his life piling up "wealth" in A GAME and used that a means of bullying the community and gaining peer respect.
Consequently when others rightfully show a lack of consideration towards amassing isk and don't share the same values as he does, he becomes deeply upset. Years of his life down the drain, and for what? No one cares.
Originally by: Shadarle
You're a worthless wanna-be scammer who has had absolutely zero success doing anything here... so why should anyone care what you say. The fact you keep posting doesn't change this.
Slap! Slap!
Success in a game. LOL.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.16 14:24:00 -
[51]
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Slap! Slap!
Success in a game. LOL.
Says the internet troll on the forums of a video game!
When will people who are geeky enough to make countless posts on internet gaming forums learn they aren't cool enough to laugh at others for being geeky?
Yes, I like playing video games.
Yes, I am good at them.
Yes, I've earned way more money in EVE than you have.
Yes, I have a good rep here, unlike you.
Yes, I do brag about it in RL. It's on my resume. It's why I got my last few jobs at McD's, Burger King, Checkers, Wendy's and Sonic. So there!
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Pink Kiwi
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Posted - 2008.08.17 02:35:00 -
[52]
Let's see if I have this correct...
Ebank will confirm the purchase of each ticket and Ebank will confirm the issuing of prize money. Other then making a forum post, what else is there to running a lottery?
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.17 02:56:00 -
[53]
This has already been explained in depth Kiwi. I suggest you read up. This shouldn't be a discussion on my choice to allow EBANK to secure this offering. Instead as the OP has stated in their one only question >
Originally by: Vanora Kime
Would you be interested in playing in a 'high stakes' lottery if the full value was secured by EBank?
Anyone who has a problem with the way I help generate revenue for EBANK should keep it to an EBANK thread. EBANK profit from this in both a small isk injection, zero risk, and advertising benefits. I won't repeat myself again.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.08.17 03:30:00 -
[54]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Anyone who has a problem with the way I help generate revenue for EBANK should keep it to an EBANK thread. EBANK profit from this in both a small isk injection, zero risk, and advertising benefits. I won't repeat myself again.
Several things but I think I'll start here: There should never be any question about how invaluable Ricdic is to the past, and continuing, success at eBank. Any differences we have is all philosophical and procedural. And it isn't always pretty in public but, well, you can't have everything all the time. Still, I was always very negative about lotteries and gambling. In the beginning of eBank I thought it best to avoid any connection with anything "chance" based or considered "risky" like gambling or lotteries. The key factor of our initial growth was about our reliability, stability, and predictability. Connecting ourselves with anything opposite of that was totally counterproductive. That being said, I think that at this point securing a lottery is not much work for eBank itself as long as the lottery is clear, winner selection is via an open methodology, and there is some form of open transparency. (Preferably public but if not via a trusted 3rd party/auditor.) That last bit is where it can blow up in eBank's face... which is why I continued to be against lottery or gambling connection while I was on the board. It is not how much work in involved when everything goes right but how much if it goes wrong. And in Eve, it is likely to go wrong more than it will go right. You'll have some people claiming the lottery was rigged soley for the purpose of drama bombing and making eBank have to drag through double checking things. (It's called griefing - always an inventive never tiring activity for a surprisingly large segment of the community.) I used to be an IT contractor. I commonly told people that 85% of the time I was overpaid, 10% of the time I was paid just right, and the last 5% of the time you could never pay me anywhere near enough for the amount of trouble in that 5%. Lotteries and Gambling is that 5% for eBank. Simply put, I'd vote as if it was the third rail on an electric train system. Stay away or get the shock of your life.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.08.17 06:36:00 -
[55]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
This has already been explained in depth Kiwi. I suggest you read up.
It actually hasn't.
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
Anyone who has a problem with the way I help generate revenue for EBANK should keep it to an EBANK thread. EBANK profit from this in both a small isk injection, zero risk, and advertising benefits. I won't repeat myself again.
The topic of this thread is this lotto. Discussing the person who would be securing it and their motivations for doing so are entirely germane to the discussion.
If I fail to see proper motivation on E-Bank's part of this then I would be hesitant to buy a ticket. And E-Bank's participation seems fishy to me so far.
You've admitted you accepted without asking any other E-Bank people.
But Mr H. said he wouldn't allow E-Bank to run a lotto.
The point being raised is that E-Bank seems to be running this lotto, but you're paying some other guy 80% of the profits to make a post, while you do the rest of the work. It just seems odd. Especially since the person posting this is a nobody. It could be an alt. And with E-Bank so willing to let this person have 80% of the profits it makes me wonder if this isn't a way to get around the problems of a lotto and keeping the benefits.
For example using the alt to run lotto's for E-Bank so you can claim E-Bank doesn't do lottos and so the alt faces issues if things go badly and E-Bank can claim they just handled the money. But E-Bank still makes 100% of the profit.
I frankly doubt this is happening... it would be brilliant business sense if it were though.
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Pink Kiwi
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Posted - 2008.08.17 07:06:00 -
[56]
How would Ebank go about securing this lottery against a scam?
Would it monitor the API daily? Or only after all tickets are sold?
When it comes to paying prize money, will Ebank or Vanora Kime be paying the winners?
What happens if the API key is changed?
Is Ebank only going to monitor things if someone complains?
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:38:00 -
[57]
I explained how EBANK generally handles ISK collateral. I didn't realise that Ricdic was actually making more work for himself and issuing the ISK to everyone. Given this, EBANK would be doing all the work while the OP would only be doing the easy part of choosing the numbers and allocating the winners.
As such, I'd tend to agree with Shad that EBANK should take a significantly larger percentage if it were to go ahead.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:42:00 -
[58]
I am not issuing any isk to anyone unless there is a problem with the lottery. You should catch me on MSN if you need clarification Horizontal 
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:45:00 -
[59]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
I am not issuing any isk to anyone unless there is a problem with the lottery. You should catch me on MSN if you need clarification Horizontal
Now you're gonna get it Mr Boredom. hahah
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.17 09:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic
I am not issuing any isk to anyone unless there is a problem with the lottery. You should catch me on MSN if you need clarification Horizontal
OK. Seems the OP already has 10b, he's just putting in EBANK to hold as collateral for the life of the venture, while the OP collects a further 10b to and runs the lottery with that. We just monitor that everything's hunky dory.
This I have no problem with, since we're just holding the collateral, and we've done before with SYDR.
Overcomplication ftl.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
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