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Redefining the chairman position.

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LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.16 10:56:00 - [1] Redefining the chair We have seen quite a bit of drama revolving around the chairman position lately(Ok, since forever really). It's pretty obvious why(No offense to Jade), but I frankly also think that a lot of the buzz was not called for. One of the main points being made in the arguments, is that Jade is the chairman of the CSM, thus represents the council, or at least so people seem to perceive it. I think this is a bad position to put the whole council in. Thus, I personally think that the chairman position should be reworked in order to avoid such situation as well as giving it a more fitting title. Here is how I could see it working out better: Executor: The job of the executor consists of several things: 1. Acting as a mediator to solve any issues 2. Plan meetings 3. Supervise the meetings as a fall-back moderator Moderation is meant as leading the discussion, just like we have a moving "chairman" right now, the owner of any certain issue will direct the discussion from start to finish. This concept should be brought onto the next CSM, if not as a guideline. This accomplishes that we now take the chairman can not put the council in a bad light, due to the fact all council members are equal. The position should be voted on, unlike the current chair position. What do you guys think? It's basically a way for streamlining the council and lessen the increasing apathy from players.
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.08.16 11:25:00 - [2] The fact that there seems to be a ranking system inside the CSM dependant on how many people voted for a given delegate seems to prove the fact that members of the CSM aren't treat as equals. I'm not going to get into a slagging match, I'm tired of it and I've made my point in the past perfectly clearly and with a lot of support. If I can say anything constructive, I'd say that there needs to be a lot more CCP interaction with the CSM, not just these meetings in Iceland every so often. I'd like to see a member of CCP permanantly devoted to chairing the CSM, with the delegates selected by the community to meet with him, and speak to him on a regular basis in these meetings. What this would do is make sure that all the delegates are treat equally, and that no one has, or is seen to have the "power of veto" (sorry for the pun, not intended although i'll happily use the free plug). The CSM delegates need to be equal in stature, and need to report back to CCP in a manner that gets all their voices heard. At present, look any any of the meeting agendas and you can see who's issues are being pushed forward the most. I'd like to see a CCP chairman who organises and moderates all the meetings, with the CSM there to meet with him and speak to him with all delegates on equal footing. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2008.08.16 11:39:00 - [3] I don't see the bias in the selection and raising of issues. Everyone is free to raise issues, the fact that the chairman coincidentally happens to be the person who raised the most issues is irrelevant as it's not reducing the ability or acceptance of anyone elses issues. IIRC (and would be good to have facts/stats on this) Issues that are raised and not well thought out, don't get voted through. As a result the chairman has more than his fair share of rejects. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store \| eve-maps.com
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Crystal Ship	Posted - 2008.08.16 13:38:00 - [4] Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 16/08/2008 13:37:56 Originally by: Verone If I can say anything constructive, I'd say that there needs to be a lot more CCP interaction with the CSM, not just these meetings in Iceland every so often. I'd like to see a member of CCP permanantly devoted to chairing the CSM, with the delegates selected by the community to meet with him, and speak to him on a regular basis in these meetings. What this would do is make sure that all the delegates are treat equally, and that no one has, or is seen to have the "power of veto" (sorry for the pun, not intended although i'll happily use the free plug). The CSM delegates need to be equal in stature, and need to report back to CCP in a manner that gets all their voices heard. At present, look any any of the meeting agendas and you can see who's issues are being pushed forward the most. I'd like to see a CCP chairman who organises and moderates all the meetings, with the CSM there to meet with him and speak to him with all delegates on equal footing. I'd agree with this, especially now with CCP Taera being brought onto the CCP team. I believe that her job description involves Community Liasion Duties. At the very least, a member of CCP needs to be present at each CSM meeting in order to be able to reply to queries that can be answered with a simple Yes/No. Example: "With the recent Dev Blog on Forum Changes there is a lot of Speculation that CCP doesn't intend to run the Alliance Tournament in Future. Can you clarify whether this is true?" Queries that need a slightly longer answer can be researched and the answer given at the next CSM meeting. Ideally for ongoing issues that CCP have said that they're working on they should be providing progress reports to that the playerbase can beconfident that it truely is being worked on and not being fobbed off with "It's coming Soon" Example: "With regards to the earlier meeting regarding Skill Queue Ideas, the playerbase have requested that an update be provided as to which ideas have been considered, which ideas have been totally ruled out and how far along any acceptable ideas have gotten in the implementation phase" Meanwhile, the really big issues can be collated and hammered out in the face to face meetings, thus satisfying CCP's vision of their Iceland meetings with the CSM being used for dealing with Big Picture Issues / Long Term Vision Ideas. Example: All the various ideas for changes to 0.0
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.16 14:21:00 - [5] Regarding the proposition by LVV, I'm appreciative of the CSM but to be blunt, from day one I've found various organizational aspects detracting from what could genuinely be an asset to both New Eden and the subscriber base. This isn't satisfactory. Therefore I'm generally in favor of what you've written and would like to see it move forward. Though I can't say for sure what immediate impact it would have regarding the apathy (if not outright hostility) that has been expressed recently, perhaps in the long term there will be improvements in perception realized.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.16 14:29:00 - [6] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/08/2008 14:34:09 Originally by: Serenity Steele I don't see the bias in the selection and raising of issues. Everyone is free to raise issues, the fact that the chairman coincidentally happens to be the person who raised the most issues is irrelevant as it's not reducing the ability or acceptance of anyone elses issues. IIRC (and would be good to have facts/stats on this) Issues that are raised and not well thought out, don't get voted through. As a result the chairman has more than his fair share of rejects. I should say that I consider my role as chair to include supporting a share of good issues that don't ordinarily fall into the interest categories of other CSM delegates. When we get to the end of the term I'll post a retrospective account of the session listing the various Issues I advocated alongside my reasons for supporting - people are free to read and assess the decisions. I'll also post a personal voting record so my actions in office are clear as can be. This general charge that I'm supporting nothing but a personal agenda is a common accusation - but its often the case that people look at the early items on agenda tagged with (jade) and jump to the conclusion that these things all come from SF people or my mates but a little examination of the issues involved will quickly disprove this misapprehension of the facts. Just take a look at this week's agenda thread for an example of jumping to conclusions ... the agenda wasn't even complete before people started jumping up and down and yelling "bias bias bias!" - some people are never happy if they don't have something to moan about. Anyway, I think we're doing the best we can in the circumstances and those CSM's that choose to run again for election will be accountable for their actions in office during this term and all is good. Those people who decided not to run in this inaugural council might well throw their hats into the ring in the autumn and perhaps next time round we'll get a council of people who can make us look like amateurs! Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.16 14:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre I'd agree with this, especially now with CCP Taera being brought onto the CCP team. I believe that her job description involves Community Liasion Duties. At the very least, a member of CCP needs to be present at each CSM meeting in order to be able to reply to queries that can be answered with a simple Yes/No. Example: "With the recent Dev Blog on Forum Changes there is a lot of Speculation that CCP doesn't intend to run the Alliance Tournament in Future. Can you clarify whether this is true?" Queries that need a slightly longer answer can be researched and the answer given at the next CSM meeting. Ideally for ongoing issues that CCP have said that they're working on they should be providing progress reports to that the playerbase can beconfident that it truely is being worked on and not being fobbed off with "It's coming Soon" Example: "With regards to the earlier meeting regarding Skill Queue Ideas, the playerbase have requested that an update be provided as to which ideas have been considered, which ideas have been totally ruled out and how far along any acceptable ideas have gotten in the implementation phase" Meanwhile, the really big issues can be collated and hammered out in the face to face meetings, thus satisfying CCP's vision of their Iceland meetings with the CSM being used for dealing with Big Picture Issues / Long Term Vision Ideas. Example: All the various ideas for changes to 0.0 I frankly think this is an excellent idea.
Inanna Zuni	Posted - 2008.08.16 21:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Verone I'd like to see a CCP chairman who organises and moderates all the meetings, with the CSM there to meet with him (sic) and speak to him (sic) with all delegates on equal footing. I'd fairly strongly disagree with this. The CSM is a creature invented by CCP but not of CCP. I don't feel that the practical working relationships which have grown within the CSM would exist with an external chair and, as such, we wouldn't get so much done. The CSM needs a bit of to-and-fro during discussions and to make that way more formal - as would happen with a CCP chair - would quell that. IZ My principles
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.08.17 10:55:00 - [9] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Originally by: Verone I'd like to see a CCP chairman who organises and moderates all the meetings, with the CSM there to meet with him (sic) and speak to him (sic) with all delegates on equal footing. I'd fairly strongly disagree with this. The CSM is a creature invented by CCP but not of CCP. I don't feel that the practical working relationships which have grown within the CSM would exist with an external chair and, as such, we wouldn't get so much done. The CSM needs a bit of to-and-fro during discussions and to make that way more formal - as would happen with a CCP chair - would quell that. IZ While I understand your logic and thinking, I still tend to disagree. If a CCP chairman was put in place and the delegates selected to act as CSM members, then I feel the CSM would run better, purely because it would actually be someone's JOB to organise the meetings, set the agenda from what the delegates brought to him, and make sure that it was kept to. There can still be ideas bounced backwards and forwards between the delegates, with no problem at all. The fact there is a CSM chairman from CCP wouldn't stop that, or stop you from talking to eachother. All it would mean is that there was a more direct level of CCP interaction than a meeting in Iceland every so often, and persistant and unbiased format to the meetings and their agendas. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:15:00 - [10] Hmm, all this talk of guidelines and rules for the next CSM makes me nervous... What the problem really boils down to is a total lack of communication between members, with preconcieved ideas about other members from the start playing a major role in this. Just because the current CSM (or parts of it) 'failed' in adhering to guidelines setout by CCP, or ignored underlying principles of the CSM and its mandate, doesn't mean the next CSM council will. From the outside looking in, it looks like any 'failures' you are implying are simply due to a lack of teamwork- its a pity, because there are members committed to making EVE a better and richer game for players (and players who want to be members with the same desires!). Don't go hamstringing the next CSM with new guidelines and constitutions, just because you couldn't work as a team this time.... Take care, Arithron

GulletSplitter Minmatar Maasai Tribal Products Independent Faction	Posted - 2008.08.19 19:37:00 - [11] Basically you need a Chribba.... A third party non-voting member to run the meetings and organize the flow. I think that the current CSM did a fine job seeing how there was no organization or flow from the first day. All those competing personalities would make it tough on anyone.
Rothrin	Posted - 2008.08.23 14:05:00 - [12] I think CSM are doing ok, i do say i have to admire jade's fight, all those anti jade posts, wich from the casual observer seem to have been an unhanded measure for somebody else to get the chair. Cant say i got any time for ank person i voted for her and her carebear aspect, but she got cought up in the politic and lost her prinicibles. As a mission runnner i think no csm talks for the mission runner and hope they leave it of their chats with ccp. Now the big thing this csm elective have done is opened the idea up that the idea could work, so i expect the next election and body to be a little more diverse next time, now my typing and lazyness will ever rule me out for applying but i do tend to galvanize the mission/pve vote next election and see if it can get 3 people on the board. To sum up...the idea has merits and this current board have done a good job in what are unknown waters, just back off missions csm.
Alannis Gallente The Plantation	Posted - 2008.08.31 03:18:00 - [13] Edited by: Alannis on 31/08/2008 03:19:02 hmm didn't mean to post :)
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.03 17:41:00 - [14] Originally by: GulletSplitter Basically you need a Chribba.... A third party non-voting member to run the meetings and organize the flow. I think that the current CSM did a fine job seeing how there was no organization or flow from the first day. All those competing personalities would make it tough on anyone. Traditionally the chair-persons of meetings like such according to roberts rules of order are 3rd party people with no interest in the meeting aside from it running smoothly.

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