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Torpedoes Max flight time???

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Author	Topic
Kimako Kimura	Posted - 2008.08.17 21:07:00 - [1] 6 seconds at 1500 m/s.. er wait thats like 9km range? Is this correct, because with all the skills and specialization we're shooting at 20km range with our torps when we used to hit 80-90km standard, and farther with PVP gear? Was this changed? Did someone think that these were water based torpedoes? Because whoever and for whatever reason this has happened you need to change them back to the way they were.
Bloemkoolsaus Horizon.Inc	Posted - 2008.08.17 21:14:00 - [2] Yes it was changed. A few patches ago (can't remember wich one.. it's been to long :P) ====================== Horizon.Inc http://www.horizon-inc.nl
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens Tread Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.17 22:43:00 - [3] They were changed because they were WAY out of line with the other missiles. Now they are what they were supposed to be. Long range / low dps: Standard Heavy Cruise Short range / High dps: Rockets Heavy Assaults Torps If you want DPS, you go torps, you want range, you go cruise. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Kimako Kimura	Posted - 2008.08.17 23:19:00 - [4] hmmm, I disagree.. if I remember the reruns well enough The starship enterprise was not within short range when using its torps. If I remember my physics enough then distance is a meaningless phrase in space since the object will continue on its trajectory untill it hits something. This change made torps unplayable. It appears to be the thing to do with games nowadays to screw them up. and I wonder how many complaints it took to make this happen...
Salia WinterDrake Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.18 00:24:00 - [5] Edited by: Salia WinterDrake on 18/08/2008 00:29:40 As I saw someone else say the other day... Your Tears. They am Delicious. Seriously, in my opinion, yes, torps suffered a hell of a nerf but this did bring them back into line with regards to the damage/sec vs range trade-off. It was warranted. However, didn't they get a damage boost at the same time? A number of forum posts have said how it now brings the Raven back as a viable PVP ship (note I said viable, not a 'good' one ), since the dps went up, at the expense of range. The shorter range also makes them less vulnerable to Defender missiles. Yes you must close the distance to target, but you will do more damage once you open fire. ----- VPN-Firewall Guide
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.18 07:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Kimako Kimura This change made torps unplayable. I'd take it you don't pvp much. Torpedoes now deliver high end, blaster dps at 25-30 km. That is brutal. Add to it the Ravens durability to overheat and you have monster dps. Hardly useless. So the change to torpedoes made them useless in missions, where cruise missiles was a very viable tool too, but it made them very useful in pvp. Basically turning the Raven into a viable close range pvp option for Caldari pilots. This is more fun for Caldari pilots who wish to pvp with their Battleships. The Caldari pilots who wish to run missions can continue to do so, unsurpassed, with cruise missiles. Starship Enterprise and real life physics do not equal fun in games.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens Tread Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.18 09:09:00 - [7] Oh, I forgot to add, that in addition to the flight time change, torps also recieved a sick buff to their rate of fire, thus upping their dps a lot. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Cyberus Caldari Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels	Posted - 2008.08.18 15:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Ancy Denaries They were changed because they were WAY out of line with the other missiles. Now they are what they were supposed to be. Long range / low dps: Standard Heavy Cruise Short range / High dps: Rockets Heavy Assaults Torps If you want DPS, you go torps, you want range, you go cruise. Yeah you are so rigth... Ohhhh wait..... let me see Guns-> Long range / low dps: lots power need Guns-> Short range / High dps: less power need Missels launshers-> Long range / low dps: less power need Missels launshers-> High dps: lots power need You see my point dont you? Whiners about missels did forget mention one thing that high dps short range weapons in EVE need less powergrid to fit but that was not bothering them so long torps/missels launshers get nerfed they way they want, and yeah its affective on all sizes of launshers. You see when you fitting mega (for example) with blasters for close combat you spare lost of PG for tank but fitting raven for the same purpose will leave you not much room to play with. Thats i call balanced. Just my 2cents. [/url]

CCP Casqade	Posted - 2008.08.18 17:21:00 - [9] Missile flight time is not "Flight time" times "Velocity". This will only give you a rough estimate, since the missile actually accelerates after being launched.

Ami Nia	Posted - 2008.08.18 19:18:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Casqade Missile flight time is not "Flight time" times "Velocity". This will only give you a rough estimate, since the missile actually accelerates after being launched. Missile flight time is missile flight time. Full stop. But you probably wanted to say that missile range (that is: flight distance) is not flight time times velocity because velocity is not costant (that is: "velocity" is really "Max Velocity").

Kimako Kimura	Posted - 2008.08.18 21:43:00 - [11] I got an answer in game about it which was better, they said it was done so that fights would be more close range. Ok. Don't know anything about Overloading yet, since I just came back after a long absence. Personally if a battleship comes at me with torps Im just going to range them instead of trade shots. I'll stick with cruise missiles now and perfect my range game.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.18 22:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Kimako Kimura they said it was done so that fights would be more close range. They did it so that the Raven would have, like all the other Battleships, a long range and a close range option. This change also made it more viable in pvp since a lot of it occurs around gates and stations, where range is not as beneficial as raw dps. Thanks to this change a Raven can now compete with ships like a blaster fitted Megathron, witch it could not do before.
Hesod Adee Militants of Xen	Posted - 2008.08.20 08:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Kimako Kimura hmmm, I disagree.. if I remember the reruns well enough The starship enterprise was not within short range when using its torps. True. It was just at short range with sucky accuracy when using any of its weapons. Quote: If I remember my physics enough then distance is a meaningless phrase in space since the object will continue on its trajectory untill it hits something. 1 - Eve does not have Newtonian flight. 2 - Even if it did, missiles would still be limited by their fuel because they would have to use it up to deal with ships trying to dodge missiles. 3 - And the missile might have limited battery power. So limited that after a while it either loses sensors (can't track the target), loses thruster control (so it can't change its course) or no longer has enough power to trigger the detonator. Originally by: van Uber Starship Enterprise and real life physics do not equal fun in games. Star Trek 'science' and real life science have no relation to each other.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.20 14:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Hesod Adee Originally by: van Uber Starship Enterprise and real life physics do not equal fun in games. Star Trek 'science' and real life science have no relation to each other. You don't say...
Reithan Caldari Dead 2 Rights TransWarp Ventures	Posted - 2008.08.20 16:50:00 - [15] Originally by: van Uber The Caldari pilots who wish to run missions can continue to do so, unsurpassed, with cruise missiles. Still not sure how the raven with cruises is unsurpassed in missioning. Seems like just about any other battleship I look at can do it better. Apoc, Domi, etc etc. Missile dps is low compared to guns, EVERY NPC packs defender missiles, it takes EVERY low slot and mid slot AND all 3 rigs to effectively tank an L4 in a Raven even with all T2 fittings (and it still won't outtank and Domi or Apoc). It's slow... I just don't get how the Raven is still considered a god-like PvE boat. Maybe patches and patches and patches ago. Not now.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Reithan I just don't get how the Raven is still considered a god-like PvE boat. That would probably be due to the ability to choose damage type. And no, you do not have to fill the lows with tanking mods on a mission Raven. They do fine with BCUs. If you feel the need to over tank the Raven in a mission, you're doing it wrong. I gladly admit that I'm no expert in missions and I do them very seldom, but if I can run a Rokh through all the L4 missions with the lows filled with Magstabs, why would a Raven with even less need for cap fill them with anything else but mods that boost dps? Three BCUs and two PDUs would probably work for most basic Raven setups.
Reithan Caldari Dead 2 Rights TransWarp Ventures	Posted - 2008.08.20 17:29:00 - [17] Originally by: van Uber That would probably be due to the ability to choose damage type. And no, you do not have to fill the lows with tanking mods on a mission Raven. They do fine with BCUs. If you feel the need to over tank the Raven in a mission, you're doing it wrong. I gladly admit that I'm no expert in missions and I do them very seldom, but if I can run a Rokh through all the L4 missions with the lows filled with Magstabs, why would a Raven with even less need for cap fill them with anything else but mods that boost dps? Three BCUs and two PDUs would probably work for most basic Raven setups. 1. Rohk has tanking bonuses. Not so for Raven 2. To get a cap stable tank with an XL booster REQUIRES all Cap Flux in Lows, 1x Cap Recharge in mid (all T2) and 3x CCC1 in rigs. Anything less and it'll just cap out in a couple minutes. And yes, I have all cap & shield skills at 4s and 5s. Oh, and then, even with all that, that tank is still only 5-600dps, whereas my buddy's Domi is closer to 700 with half the modules devoted to tanking. His Apoc is even worse with like 8-900. If I'm doing something wrong here, I'd appreciate it a lot if you'd post some alternative setup here. Hell, even just evemail it to me. If you can improve my setup here, I'll send iskies. (for the record improve = kill faster with same tank, or tank better with same kill rate or tank better AND kill faster [or hell, even just a CHEAPER setup would be great]).
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.20 19:08:00 - [18] Edited by: van Uber on 20/08/2008 19:08:32 Originally by: Reithan If I'm doing something wrong here, I'd appreciate it a lot if you'd post some alternative setup here. Hell, even just evemail it to me. If you can improve my setup here, I'll send iskies. (for the record improve = kill faster with same tank, or tank better with same kill rate or tank better AND kill faster [or hell, even just a CHEAPER setup would be great]). I'd say you problem lies in the fact that you probably try to tank the entire mission at the same time. You do not have to do that. If you avoid aggro from the entire room, pulsing your shield booster will suffice. This means you have room for more BCUs, which means you will kill your NPCs faster, which means you will earn more isk per hour. You should check out http://eve-survival.org to see how to avoid full room aggro in each mission. It's handy, it even works with the in game browser. Regarding the Rokh, while it has a resistance bonus, it also mounts Hybrid Turrets, which means it will never be cap stable as long as it fires its weapons, which means it is forced to pulse its shield booster. Now the Rokh works fine in missions despite of that, but it is clearly way behind the Raven that can tank harder and choose its damage type and thus far out damage the Rokh in all but Guristas missions.
Reithan Caldari Dead 2 Rights TransWarp Ventures	Posted - 2008.08.20 19:42:00 - [19] Originally by: van Uber I'd say you problem lies in the fact that you probably try to tank the entire mission at the same time. You do not have to do that. If you avoid aggro from the entire room, pulsing your shield booster will suffice. This means you have room for more BCUs, which means you will kill your NPCs faster, which means you will earn more isk per hour. You should check out http://eve-survival.org to see how to avoid full room aggro in each mission. It's handy, it even works with the in game browser. Well, in some missions it's fairly unavoidable. Worlds Collide comes to mind. As does the Extravs and that one were you have to go get Quafe... I know about EVE Survival, but it always seems to glitch out on me. Also, that being said, I absolutely despise having to look up every mission I accept, always. Generally, I'm fairly careful and try not to aggro any more than necessary at a time, but sometimes shit happens...or you get that damnable full-room aggro on drone launch bug. What do you do then if you're not fully tanked? Warp out and tell the agent to **** off?
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.20 20:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Reithan What do you do then if you're not fully tanked? Warp out and tell the agent to **** off? While my tank has sufficed almost every time, it has happened that I have been forced to warp out. While that is irritating, it does not mean you have to give up on the mission. It simply means you will have to get back in again, this time with less NPCs than before, since you will have shot down some. So the second time you enter the room, you will stand a better chance than before. Still this is not common, in my experience. So I am very confident that you will make a lot more isk per hour with the added dps as opposed of a perma run tank. On a Raven. Or, if you feel a room is too difficult you could always "blitz" it.

Reithan Caldari Dead 2 Rights TransWarp Ventures	Posted - 2008.08.20 21:44:00 - [21] Originally by: van Uber While my tank has sufficed almost every time, it has happened that I have been forced to warp out. While that is irritating, it does not mean you have to give up on the mission. It simply means you will have to get back in again, this time with less NPCs than before, since you will have shot down some. So the second time you enter the room, you will stand a better chance than before. Still this is not common, in my experience. So I am very confident that you will make a lot more isk per hour with the added dps as opposed of a perma run tank. On a Raven. Or, if you feel a room is too difficult you could always "blitz" it. As it stands as the easiest and most relevant (as far as I know) example, how do you handle something like "Worlds Collide L4" with a non-fully-tanked Raven? Last time I tried that I had to GTFO before I killed even one enemy.
xXxSatsujinxXx Ascent of Ages Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.21 01:23:00 - [22] I run a dcu2, 3 bcu's, and a signal amp in the lows on my raven, and the only lvl4 i need to warp from really is mordus headhunters (sometimes :P). Basically, i think you're doing it wrong. You don't need to permarun an XL booster, with decent resists you only need to pulse it. Yes, you need to fill your mids with a tank, but at least you don't have to give up tanking slots for damage mods. Back to the topic - i think what they did to torps was a good thing, and needed doing for balance. It certainly brought the raven back into play, torp ravens are something to be feared now unless you're in something small/fast. The raven is a short range boat for pvp, and always has been thanks to delayed damage. No-one is gonna sit around waiting for your missiles to get there, and if they are tackled etc, chances are your gang is gonna kill them before your first missile hits. Bottom line - You want damage, go with torps. You want to hit most nano***s or run missions, go with cruise. You want range for pvp, use a rokh ffs.
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.21 04:55:00 - [23] Originally by: Reithan As it stands as the easiest and most relevant (as far as I know) example, how do you handle something like "Worlds Collide L4" with a non-fully-tanked Raven? Last time I tried that I had to GTFO before I killed even one enemy. You do not get full room aggro in Worlds Collide unless you shoot the triggers, so read the missions in EVE-survival. It tells you what you can shoot and what to save for last. Also, you DO use race specific harderners for each mission, right?
Reithan Caldari Dead 2 Rights TransWarp Ventures	Posted - 2008.08.21 04:57:00 - [24] Originally by: xXxSatsujinxXx Edited by: xXxSatsujinxXx on 21/08/2008 01:27:17 I run a dcu2, 3 bcu's, and a signal amp in the lows on my raven, and the only lvl4 i need to warp from really is mordus headhunters (sometimes :P). Basically, i think you're doing it wrong. You don't need to permarun an XL booster, with decent resists you only need to pulse it. 2 of each mission specific hardener (for omni i go 2 invuln, 1 therm, and 1 em hardener), a boost amp, and an XL booster is all you need. Yes, you need to fill your mids with a tank, but at least you don't have to give up tanking slots for damage mods. So, you suggest something like the below? It's damn tight on CPU (need to up my Weapon Upgrades), but the resists are nice. What do you suggest for the rigs & 2 remaining hi-slots? In your opinion is it just shield tanks that should do high resists & pulse, or should that work for armor tanks as well? [Raven, Pulse] Damage Control I Signal Amplifier II Ballistic Control System I Ballistic Control System I Ballistic Control System I Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Photon Scattering Field II X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II 'Malkuth' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Malkuth' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Malkuth' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Malkuth' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Malkuth' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Malkuth' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Hammerhead I x7
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.21 08:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Reithan So, you suggest something like the below? It looks decent. Perhaps loose the signal amplifier for a PDS. But I would definitely loose the two invulnerability fields in favour of two additional race specific hardeners. It makes your tank a lot harder. You will only face two types of damage in the majority of your missions, no need to have hardeners that tank more that those two types, so save the invulnerability fields for the mercenary opponents. I would also prioritize boosting your Weapon Upgrade skill, you loose a lot of dps since you cannot use T2 Ballistic Controls. It requires only level 4, so it would only be a matter of a few days training. Also, while incredibly boring to train, the Weapon Upgrade skill is a prerequisite to Advance Weapon Upgrades, that is an essential skill for fitting your ships later in your career.
xXxSatsujinxXx Ascent of Ages Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.08.21 11:23:00 - [26] Yep, looks good... Though as he said, drop the sig amp for a pdu, and see if you can squeeze a heavy nos in the highs. Weapons upgrades (and advanced) are a huge help. I only switched to a sig amp once i was really confident with the missions and felt like i was overtanking (also after training Adv. weapons upgrades 4 i decided to re-evaluate my fitting, and found i could drop the pdu and still keep all mods including nos). As for rigs - i go with 1 x anti EM screen reinforcer, 1 x cap. control circuit, and 1 x warhead calefaction/rigor. Alot of people don't aggree with my choice of rigs, i guess it just doesn't suit everyones play style... 1) The anti-EM REALLY helps with the merc type missions (all damage types). Without it you'l struggle to get respectable all round resists. 2) Capacitor control circuit for obvious reasons. 3) Finally the warhead rig of your choice, i chose the general damage one over the one that effects the damage against smaller targets, since i spent more time shooting big stuff, and using cruise. Pre-torp changes i probably would've gone with the other one. So there it is... That should get you started on the right path. If you can, use mission specific hardeners (eg, for serpentis use 2 kinetic, and 2 thermal hardeners). Also, while you're still unsure - go for the scramblers first - eg for serpentis, a "guardian somethingorother" would be a scrambler... they're much tougher than their standard counterparts, but if you hit them straight away while they're still MWDing towards you, they'l instapop :) The best tank, is RANGE. The reason this setup works so well is because most stuff gets slaughtered before its in range to shoot you. You'l struggle for a while, until you get a full t2 fit etc, and until you know the missions like the back of your hand... but hey, wheres the fun if theres no risk? :P As for Armor tankers - i have a friend who uses a single rep domi for all level4's.. Permarunning 1 rep doesn't take much, and leaves slots for drone navs/magstabs.. Though he has trained BS5 so gets massive repair from 1 rep... Good Luck!
Reithan Caldari Dead 2 Rights TransWarp Ventures	Posted - 2008.08.21 12:47:00 - [27] Originally by: xXxSatsujinxXx As for Armor tankers - i have a friend who uses a single rep domi for all level4's.. Permarunning 1 rep doesn't take much, and leaves slots for drone navs/magstabs.. Though he has trained BS5 so gets massive repair from 1 rep... Originally by: Dominix Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level. Why would BS5 help his tank? If you go with the same sort of theory, what about just getting a Raven to permarun 1 Large Boost? 1 Large Boost is to 1 LAR as 1 XL is to Dual LAR, ya know? In any case, this all looks a lot different than what I was doing and I'm hopin it works, as I'll probably try it on my next Raven...but again, what do you do about the super-harsh instant-aggro missions like Worlds Collide?
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Reithan but again, what do you do about the super-harsh instant-aggro missions like Worlds Collide? I hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing! "Worlds Collide" is NOT an instant-aggro mission, not in the sense of getting the entire room at you. In the case of "Worlds Collide", there is some rooms where you will get aggro from a specific group, but not the entire room. A Battlecruiser can tank that, so I do not see the issue really. Like most missions, all hell will break loose IF you shot the TRIGGERS. Again, you really should take a look at EVE-survival. If you check out the many different variants of "Worlds Collide" you can easily spot the triggers in each room. Regarding xXxSatsujinxXx comment about BS5, it is an entirely different thing to permarun a repairer on a Dominix than a shield booster on a Raven. You benefit from permarun on a Domi, because you have relatively short range on your weapons, the NPC's often have to come to you, while the Raven can eliminate the NPCs before they can even open fire. Not to mention the difference in armortanking and shieldtanking.
Reithan Caldari Dead 2 Rights TransWarp Ventures	Posted - 2008.08.21 14:45:00 - [29] Originally by: van Uber I hate to break it to you, but there is no such thing! "Worlds Collide" is NOT an instant-aggro mission, not in the sense of getting the entire room at you. In the case of "Worlds Collide", there is some rooms where you will get aggro from a specific group, but not the entire room. A Battlecruiser can tank that, so I do not see the issue really. Like most missions, all hell will break loose IF you shot the TRIGGERS. Again, you really should take a look at EVE-survival. If you check out the many different variants of "Worlds Collide" you can easily spot the triggers in each room. Not to mention the difference in armortanking and shieldtanking. Well, last time I got Worlds Collide I know I didn't kill a trigger...as I didn't even get a chance to kill anything. The stuff that aggro'd on me as soon as I hit the first accel gate was enough that I had to warp immediately, and IIRC it still dented into armor a litte. Though, this was before I finished off all my T2 Tanking skills, so maybe those will make the needed difference. As for triggers, most of them are so blatantly obvious that I seldom trigger one without meaning to ("A BC with a bigger bounty than the BS's here? Better save that one for last!"). And again, I don't know what the issue is, but every time I've tried to pull up EVE-Survival it glitches out or times out on me. Either way, I find the "don't perma-run, just pulse & kill" strategy interesting and I'm gonna try it on the next Raven I build, which I'll be doing just as soon as a couple market buy/sells I'm running finish. If it works out, I'll send ya a few mill for being helpful. :P
van Uber Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.21 15:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Reithan If it works out, I'll send ya a few mill for being helpful. :P Tell you what. If it works out and if you do find it useful, sponsor a beginner with that money instead and pass your new won knowledge that way. Deal?

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