Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:48:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mjabi Again afaik, the account was theirs to access. No hacking etc took place, just plain theft from corp, and that stolen isk passed to Ketch.
So, the guy that was taking the isk owned the account?
Oh, wait, not as you explained it.
So, account hacking.
|
Kirana Si
House of Lubrication
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:51:00 -
[32]
You should call 0900-GM-Gandalf for insta-help, i heard he is very active in the Vale/Geminate area
|
Rudi Storm
SGL
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:55:00 -
[33]
If I get this right...
A large amount of the original titan cost was from an account that was obviously getting the money from ISK farmers. Those same ISK Farmers that sell ISK for RL money on the web which in itself is punishable? Not arguing the way you got the money (corp theft). But the way the original ISK was obtained is the problem.
Lets say I steal a car and then sell it to you for 10$. I doubt the cops will let you keep the car if you get caught with it.
I don't see a reason why CCP should be blamed. You knew where the money came from and you should therefore know what you are getting yourself into.
|
Slobodanka
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:12:00 -
[34]
Here's how I see it: Once upon a time there was an alliance (quite big it seems) that rented their space. Member of this alliance, called Pilot X (BTW I don't think thats his real name o.0) was in charge or rent ISK. This same Pilot X was (apart from his accounting role) also a bit of entrepreneur on the side. From ISK he collected as rent for space he took a cut for himself (called 'corp theft' in eve, very popular and you get extra epeen points for it on CAOD forums). From this not-so-honest ISK (but still not illegal ISK, just immoral) Pilot X (maybe his name should be Steve or something like that, Pilot X is so '80s) a.k.a. Steve gave some of it to pilot called Ketch, member of Daisho. Gov'ment also took Ketch's baby, his titan.
From above we can see that at no point noone accessed account that was not theirs. Steve (formerly known as Pilot X) accessed his account to collect rent, steal from corp and transfer stolen ISK to Ketch. Ketch on the other hand only used his account to recieve stolen ISK and pilot titan.
The only problem I see here could be where did rent money come from: If it was farmed by ISK farmers... I don't see any problems with that as long as it wasn't macroed. I don't know of any part of EULA that prohibits making ISK in eve, except if you use macro or exploit/bug (which we all like and use as much as possible, don't we 'big alliance'? :p). So no problems here. If it wasn't farmed by ISK farmers but was in fact bought for RL money, then the person doing the buying should take the heat.
All that said, I think there might have been something else going on, and not necessarily of sexual nature. Account sharing (which is done with titan pilot on daily basis), macroing (big alliance that rents it's space to 'asdf543' corp/alliance and do their own macro thing) and other possible EULA violations.
I'd say Ketch & Co. ****ed up and took the heat as a result, however only they (and maybe CCP) know the whole story and I don't think they plan on spilling their guts any time soon.
Now where is that raven fleet of mine...
|
Shinigami
Gallente Shinra
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rudi Storm If I get this right...
A large amount of the original titan cost was from an account that was obviously getting the money from ISK farmers. Those same ISK Farmers that sell ISK for RL money on the web which in itself is punishable? Not arguing the way you got the money (corp theft). But the way the original ISK was obtained is the problem.
Lets say I steal a car and then sell it to you for 10$. I doubt the cops will let you keep the car if you get caught with it.
I don't see a reason why CCP should be blamed. You knew where the money came from and you should therefore know what you are getting yourself into.
Agreed. They should unban him, but not return the titan.
|
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:21:00 -
[36]
I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
Moran Trayga
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: KIAEddZ I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
Would Daisho be willing to refund all the logistics/kills/advantages they gained with the ill-gotten titan? - MORAN TRAYGA - |
Narciss Sevar
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: KIAEddZ I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
Perhaps it has something to do with the only two storys we have here is 1. He owned the account so was laundering isk for isk farmers, but took some for himself and bought a titan with it. Or 2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
|
Adeptus mecanicus
The Flaming Sideburn's Blackguard Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:36:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Narciss Sevar Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
i heard that sharing cyno hoe' acounts is allowed......isnt a titan pilot a big ass' cyno hoe' theese days? ]
Grunt's |
Hotshothotshot1
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:44:00 -
[40]
Whahahahaa.
|
|
Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar Office linebackers Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:52:00 -
[41]
To be honest the trust might be out there but it ain't on the forums.
The simple fact is that the whole purchase of the Titan is somewhat dubious and theirfor the decicion to remove it seems more than understandable.
I know the Dashio didn't rent out in their previous space because i was down that way at the same time, but the simple fact is that the Alliance did benefit with a Titan based on an income stream from dubious source, so im not sympathetic.
On the other hand if CCP intends on removing PPL's assets who rent out space to isk farmers, they better give some warning out in advance.
Because there will be more than one Alliance effected at the end of it and clearly the rules should be clarified.
|
Vidtorin
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:59:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:01:38 Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
Please read what has been posted before making, what is considered a false statement.
It has also been disclosed that someone from the big alliance gave ketch the isk, and at no stage has he logged on to that account and took the isk for him self.
As i said, to reiterate, it has also been said the isk was given to him. What you are saying is purely speculation.
But with out CCP posting, in all fairness, this whole thread is speculation.
I'm not posting my opinion here, but i am defending a friend
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
|
Karlvon
Gallente x100x
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:03:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vidtorin Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:01:38 Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
Please read what has been posted before making, what is considered a false statement.
It has also been disclosed that someone from the big alliance gave ketch the isk, and at no stage has he logged on to that account and took the isk for him self.
As i said, to reiterate, it has also been said the isk was given to him. What you are saying is purely speculation.
But with out CCP posting, in all fairness, this whole thread is speculation.
I'm not posting my opinion here, but i am defending a friend
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
If true, than report it please, or STFU. Or you support account sharing in KIA ? Cause account sharing is forbidden and that from very valid reason.
|
Narciss Sevar
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Vidtorin Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:01:38 Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
Please read what has been posted before making, what is considered a false statement.
It has also been disclosed that someone from the big alliance gave ketch the isk, and at no stage has he logged on to that account and took the isk for him self.
As i said, to reiterate, it has also been said the isk was given to him. What you are saying is purely speculation.
But with out CCP posting, in all fairness, this whole thread is speculation.
I'm not posting my opinion here, but i am defending a friend
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
I hope they ban all those leaders of alliances that share accounts then.
|
Mo'Chuisle
Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:42:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mo''Chuisle on 18/08/2008 12:42:28
Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
Which would be pretty stupid as all you need is to have a director level character in the executor corp to be able to run the alliance, so everyone who needs access can just put an alt into the executor corp.
|
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Narciss Sevar I hope they ban all those leaders of alliances that share accounts then.
Indeed.
Vidt isnt a KIA director and I know he isnt talking about KIA, I guess he has intimate knowledge of some other Alliances sops.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
Vidtorin
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:51:00 -
[47]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Originally by: Narciss Sevar I hope they ban all those leaders of alliances that share accounts then.
Indeed.
Vidt isnt a KIA director and I know he isnt talking about KIA, I guess he has intimate knowledge of some other Alliances sops.
Sorry i forgot to say, i was not referring to KIA, or any alliance associated with KIA, IE, DaiSho..i was referring to previous alliances i have been in, which i am not going to name
|
ishkabibble
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:58:00 -
[48]
Something about this story just doesnt feel right....
CCP took a shot on the chin with the T20 garbage almost 2 years ago with all the "you know who" making a big stink about it and outing other people in game.
I seriously doubt they will follow that same path unless they had something solid or valid content for the ban of the titan pilot.
Feels like we are missing a couple of pieces of this puzzle Support Sarmaul's Genius MWD Alternative |
Vecila
Live and Learn Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:01:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg So he took isk from an account that wasnt his?
Sounds like another EULA violation to this pod pilot.
On a purely intelligence argument, did he not realize this might (just a little bit) look like an ISK purchase to ccp?
Well you see this is the problem, ccps system (unlike other mmos that general set stick rules) is at gm discretion, no two player therefore are ever treated equal and the worst is always assumed wihtout proof. In other words, you play the game for 4 years and a gm see something odd, something he cannot prove (and you cannot either usually) you are the one in the wrong.
Doesn't matter how long you've been a customer, you just be banned and told to do away - which, assuming you do buy isk, isn't a problem because you can just get another skilled account - it's only legitimate players the system punishes like this (excluding the withdrawal of isk/negative wallet issue).
Which makes me ask, why is he banned for (assuming the opening post are correct) using legitimate mechanics that happen all the time? Why did they* remove his assets instead of removing the isk from his wallet? Why does ccp still wonder why it's game has never reached the same league as other mmos...
My condolences to KIA, you're good people who always push yourselves to the limit, but i hope this at least opens your eyes to ccps business model. Eve has always had the potential to be huge, but even ccp admits older players usually pack up and leave, idk about you but from almost 3 yeas of observation i haven't seen any attempt to keep them, more often than not the opposite.
|
Revolution Rising
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:07:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Slobodanka Here's how I see it: Once upon a time there was an alliance (quite big it seems) that rented their space. Member of this alliance, called Pilot X (BTW I don't think thats his real name o.0) was in charge or rent ISK. This same Pilot X was (apart from his accounting role) also a bit of entrepreneur on the side. From ISK he collected as rent for space he took a cut for himself (called 'corp theft' in eve, very popular and you get extra epeen points for it on CAOD forums). From this not-so-honest ISK (but still not illegal ISK, just immoral) Pilot X (maybe his name should be Steve or something like that, Pilot X is so '80s) a.k.a. Steve gave some of it to pilot called Ketch, member of Daisho. Gov'ment also took Ketch's baby, his titan.
From above we can see that at no point noone accessed account that was not theirs. Steve (formerly known as Pilot X) accessed his account to collect rent, steal from corp and transfer stolen ISK to Ketch. Ketch on the other hand only used his account to recieve stolen ISK and pilot titan.
The only problem I see here could be where did rent money come from: If it was farmed by ISK farmers... I don't see any problems with that as long as it wasn't macroed. I don't know of any part of EULA that prohibits making ISK in eve, except if you use macro or exploit/bug (which we all like and use as much as possible, don't we 'big alliance'? :p). So no problems here. If it wasn't farmed by ISK farmers but was in fact bought for RL money, then the person doing the buying should take the heat.
All that said, I think there might have been something else going on, and not necessarily of sexual nature. Account sharing (which is done with titan pilot on daily basis), macroing (big alliance that rents it's space to 'asdf543' corp/alliance and do their own macro thing) and other possible EULA violations.
I'd say Ketch & Co. ****ed up and took the heat as a result, however only they (and maybe CCP) know the whole story and I don't think they plan on spilling their guts any time soon.
Now where is that raven fleet of mine...
So stealing isk that was isk from an isk seller is laundered isk? I dont think so...
Perhaps if Pilot X had not performed nefarious act A then Pilot Y and Z who then performed nefarious acts B and C would not have had CCP performed amoral but legal acts F and U on them.
|
|
Saffronique
Epic Hyena Props
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:10:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mjabi
Lesson.. dont skim isk off the top of ISK farmer's rent payments! He got exactly what he deserved.
|
Raukho
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:10:00 -
[52]
So he took ISK that he knew that belonged to or was easily linked to ISK farmers and he is suprised they think he bought ISK? I can't judge if he bought it or not but I'd say he was not thinking very well how it would look if CCP noticed the large sum transactions and would go on an investigation.
|
Saffronique
Epic Hyena Props
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:17:00 -
[53]
Why the **** KIA feels the need to talk for Daisho.. I'll never know.. Last month Eddz was a PURE spokesman.. today hes a Diasho one..
Seriously diaff.
|
Vecila
Live and Learn Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:38:00 -
[54]
So..
1. Kia pilot has 2 accounts, he uses one to infiltrate alliance x, alliance x promote him and he is in charge of alliance funds.
2. Alliance x rent space, Kia alt begins stealing isk using legitimate, in game (proven) means.
3. Kia pilot transfers stolen isk to his main, they purchases titan.
4. Ccp decided those renters were in fact farmers* (what happened to them, are they banned now too?) and remove isk, in Kias case they destroy the asset purchased with the isk.
5. Pilot quits.
*important Ccp use their logs combined with the billing accounts to determine who is indeed legitimate farmers, and it take time not done on a whim, however these details are strictly confidential. They are also, the only true way of telling if another character is a farmer and without them you cannot say 100% either way if a character is a farmer of just a dedicated ratter.
Bout right?
If so, then the problem i see, is that the player is being punished for not having access to the confidential data ccp has, therefore has no true way of knowing the pilots from which he is taking isk are farmers. In other words it's his fault for not knowing, and he is punnished for his ignorance?
If you buy isk it gets removed, if you buy items they get destroyed, fi you rent to farmers you get both (the new one).
So what's the lesson? Simple.
If you are in an alliance, and you are renting space and ccp decide those renters are farmers, the company you have payed for so long will turn against you, remove your isk, destroy your assets, and generally give a big f u. Obviously it ill be you're fault there are people on the other side of the planet farming isk, you're fault for not checking ccp logs or billing details, and your fault for not having access to the information.
Might i also suggest Ed that you start a thread on the "other" forums before this one ultimately gets locked?
|
Izakbar
Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:39:00 -
[55]
cry me a river...
ho ho ho
|
Nastasia Muse
Caldari deii feram
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:51:00 -
[56]
A short play in one act, called "How CCP Could Be ******ed And Not Punish This":
Quote:
Buyer: "Dude, gimme 5 billion what's our paypal?"
Seller: "keke this is numma one gold."
CCP: "Alrighty you're both banned, sunshines. We've been watching these transactions."
Buyer: "Nah, I stole it from him, see? That's not a disposable middleman account I buy ISK on, it's a l33t spyzor."
CCP: "Oh well. Without access to paypal logs there is no way we can prove a consideration was given so I suppose we'll have to let you go."
|
mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 14:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Vecila
1. Kia pilot has 2 accounts, he uses one to infiltrate alliance x, alliance x promote him and he is in charge of alliance funds.
I suggest you reread the OP.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 14:59:00 -
[58]
Isk that ccp traces as bought or stolen through account theft is always taken back, even when that isk has been changed into something else. If a transaction had occured they would probably not have a problem, but it didn't. Eve general often has people moaning cos their carrier or whatever has been repossesed after they "borrowed" some isk from someone who gained it by nefarious means. They are invariably told to stfu, esp if they had an inkling the isk was not cool. There is no reason why a titan should be any different. The ban is something of a different manner i would imagine ccp think things went somewhat deeper.
|
Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 15:35:00 -
[59]
Heres the lesson boyz and girlz stay the F away from isk farmers...as having anything to do with them will get you banned...hope everyone listens...as there are a few big alliances who seem to have some funny blues :)
I say ban away...you take isk from group you know to be scum, then too bad...I hope the others who are doing the same also get his with the ban stick...which is way so many leaders of alliance let others in their alliance "deal with renters" because they dont want to get hit with the ban stick...
|
Brigsby5987
Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 15:50:00 -
[60]
Killing isk farmers in 0,0 is far more profitable tbh. __________________________________________ When Will I be able to post again ? 13 days, 23 hours, 55 minutes, 36 seconds |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |