Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mjabi
KIA Heavy Industries KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 07:42:00 -
[1]
Ketch hasn't very eloquently put what has happened here. Afaik, Dasiho have never rented out space to ISK Farmers. They "skimmed" a large sum of money, around 40 billion I believe from an account that a close friend had access to. That account was, unfortunately for him, a Deposit account for a VERY large alliance that does rent out space to isk farmers. Most of the ISK in that account is from ISK farmers paying this very large allaince for rented space. CCP have assumed that Ketch bought the ISK he received from that account and as such banned his Titan Char and taken the Titan. By his own admission he skimmed the ISK of the top of the account, but claims to have never entered into any cash payment for the ISK. This is the skim story as far as I have understood it, I will not leave my opinion here, just wanted to clear up what has actually happened on behalf of my friends in Daisho, as their Alliance name shouldn't be muddied with accusations of ISK Farmer renting. Losing Ketch from game is a big hit for Daisho and indeed KIA, hes a quality player, a good FC and a inspiring leader for his troops. Hope you change your mind dude, and just for note, I feel you are making the wrong decision.
Will I now get my 1st forum warning?
|
Vasili Z
Pyre of Gods
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 07:43:00 -
[2]
I loooove hockey!! -------
Join POGS! Only Girls allowed. No fattys. I have a Calvin tattoo
|
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 07:54:00 -
[3]
Why was the character banned? Why not just take the Titan that they suspect is bought with farmed ISK, I dont understand why they have banned the account.
Harsh Ketch, feel for you bud, but as Mjabi says, don't give up m8, Daisho needs you.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 07:58:00 -
[4]
maybe has something to do with accessing accounts that don't belong to him and stealing isk from them ?
and that's supposed to be what clears his name ?
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 07:59:00 -
[5]
So he took isk from an account that wasnt his?
Sounds like another EULA violation to this pod pilot.
On a purely intelligence argument, did he not realize this might (just a little bit) look like an ISK purchase to ccp? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mjabi .. Will I now get my 1st forum warning?
NOOB! Real men has dozen of those under their belts.
"The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of goldcrap"
|
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk maybe has something to do with accessing accounts that don't belong to him and stealing isk from them ?
and that's supposed to be what clears his name ?
Since when has stealing isk from your corp been against the EULA Tyrrax, you of all people should know that. My understanding is that his friend stole it and gave it to him.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
7sunami
Evolution Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:09:00 -
[8]
which very large alliance was renting out space to isk farmers? Curious minds like to know :)
|
Ketch Kan
Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:14:00 -
[9]
Thank you for that m8 and I know Daisho needs me but I need a game where I can trust the GMs to do an honest objective job. The simple fact that the burden to prove my innocence is on me not the GMsÆ is just wrong they have all the tools I only have my wallet history and my word.
As you know our entire alliance put in to get that thing I was even willing to transfer Dinorryox to the alliance leader so the alliance didnÆt loose the titan because I got some of the isk from people I knew were a bit dodgy. CCP you can ban all my accounts but my alliance deserve what they worked so hard to get.
That said thanks for the support
|
Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: KIAEddZ Why was the character banned? Why not just take the Titan that they suspect is bought with farmed ISK, I dont understand why they have banned the account.
Harsh Ketch, feel for you bud, but as Mjabi says, don't give up m8, Daisho needs you.
Meh, with all the EULA violations going on involving Nac there will be enough redtape to keep his accounts tied up for years. It's too bad though, he's always been good people.
|
|
Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:16:00 -
[11]
If the guy that got banned isn't the one that did the logging onto the account that was stolen from then that's different..
's still pretty dubious tho since he obviously knew where the ISK was coming from and that his friend was logging onto an account that didn't belong to him to get it
|
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ketch Kan Thank you for that m8 and I know Daisho needs me but I need a game where I can trust the GMs to do an honest objective job. The simple fact that the burden to prove my innocence is on me not the GMsÆ is just wrong they have all the tools I only have my wallet history and my word.
As you know our entire alliance put in to get that thing I was even willing to transfer Dinorryox to the alliance leader so the alliance didnÆt loose the titan because I got some of the isk from people I knew were a bit dodgy. CCP you can ban all my accounts but my alliance deserve what they worked so hard to get.
That said thanks for the support
So the Alliance didn't get refunded for the portion they put in?
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk 's still pretty dubious tho since he obviously knew where the ISK was coming from and that his friend was logging onto an account that didn't belong to him to get it
afaik the account was owned by the person who logged into it Tyrrax.
It was just plain old corp theft.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
Ketch Kan
Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ketch Kan on 18/08/2008 08:20:51 not a bit was given back
and he didn't login to someone else's account it was his he just ran the account to launder the isk
|
Tassi
Infinitus Odium
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 08:49:00 -
[15]
So you took isk that was supposed to be laundered before it was laundered and built a titan with it?
Man how stupid can someone be? Why didn't you launder it and THEN build the titan with it?
|
Labrat7
Caldari Caldari Mining and Manufacturing Company
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 09:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: 7sunami which very large alliance was renting out space to isk farmers? Curious minds like to know :)
It was BoB.
|
Milkman Dani
Gallente RuffRyders Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 09:43:00 -
[17]
Yeah it's bob, sure..
Very large alliance.. that would leave one in particular who lives in the south east, just my opinion anyway.
|
Narciss Sevar
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 09:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ketch Kan Edited by: Ketch Kan on 18/08/2008 08:20:51 not a bit was given back
and he didn't login to someone else's account it was his he just ran the account to launder the isk
So a guy laundering isk for isk farmers gets banned and you are complaining? Good riddance is my thoughts.
|
Angor
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 09:48:00 -
[19]
I dunno what is funnier, CCP taking the titan on a whim not really knowing the full story, or the hissy fit titan pilot quitting cos they took his big pixel toy... awe pricelesss.
Wont take to long to farm another titan eh... _______________________________ [ 2007.06.07 21:07:22 ] FrankyWave > ransom me guys I am joining XElas !!! |
Shinigami
Gallente Shinra
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 09:54:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
|
|
Angor
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
Yes, and I am also sure that LV didn't profit from such isk selling sweatshops in the form of "rent". Or Bob, or RA, or Goons, or "insert alliance here" _______________________________ [ 2007.06.07 21:07:22 ] FrankyWave > ransom me guys I am joining XElas !!! |
Siminuria
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:05:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Siminuria on 18/08/2008 10:05:06
Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
I suspect if you knew anything at all about how an alliance functions in eve you would not be stupid enough to suggest that the countless uninformed frontline pilots lost their accounts because of nefarious dealings on hidden forums made my their ceo/directors.
|
Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:17:00 -
[23]
Wait, so the guy didn't get the isk from isk sellers, he just stole it from someone elses account?
yeah that's a lot better, nice work
|
Shinigami
Gallente Shinra
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Siminuria I suspect if you knew anything at all about how an alliance functions in eve you would not be stupid enough to suggest that the countless uninformed frontline pilots lost their accounts because of nefarious dealings on hidden forums made my their ceo/directors.
I think I would be smart enough to find a new corp/alliance if I saw dozens of blues named like "afsafasf1111" ratting in my alliance's space. It's not hard to spot the isk farmers. It's not like they are hidden from view.
|
Schani Kratnorr
x13
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:36:00 -
[25]
With no official word from CCP we have no way of knowing what happened. I've been playing for five years, so I know quite a few players. The number of "what the ñ#%&!!"-cases is on the rise.
Perhaps Quality Control at GM-headquaters need a swift kick in the nuts?
|
Mjabi
KIA Heavy Industries KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:40:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Mjabi on 18/08/2008 10:43:30
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Wait, so the guy didn't get the isk from isk sellers, he just stole it from someone elses account?
yeah that's a lot better, nice work
This is as I know it to be.
Someone (lets call him Pilot X) from the large Alliance was tasked with managing the isk that influxxed from renters and also the farmers in the Alliances regions.
Pilot X skimmed money of the top of this ISK. He gave a lump of his skimmed cash to Ketch, simply as a gift. Ketch knew it came from Renters to that other Alliance.
This money was added to Daisho Alliance funds and a Titan Purchased.
It was plain corp theft on behalf of Pilot X which as we know is celebrated in Eve and not against the EULA.
|
maarud
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:41:00 -
[27]
From the sounds of things, someone was accessing an account that wasn't theirs and made alot of ISK from it. It also sounds like the titan was partly funded from this ISK.
Is that correct?
Maarud.
|
maarud
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mjabi
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Wait, so the guy didn't get the isk from isk sellers, he just stole it from someone elses account?
yeah that's a lot better, nice work
This is as I know it to be.
Someone from the large Alliance was tasked with managing the isk that influxxed from renters and also the farmers in the Alliances regions.
This person skimmed money of the top of this ISK. He gave a lump of his skimmed cash to Ketch, simply as a gift. Ketch knew it came from Renters to that other Alliance.
This money was added to Alliance funds and a Titan Purchased.
It was plain corp theft which as we know is celebrated in Eve and not against the EULA.
No, it was stolen from someone's account, which goes under hacking, not corp theft.
Difference
Maarud.
|
Mjabi
KIA Heavy Industries KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:45:00 -
[29]
Originally by: maarud From the sounds of things, someone was accessing an account that wasn't theirs and made alot of ISK from it. It also sounds like the titan was partly funded from this ISK.
Is that correct?
Again afaik, the account was theirs to access. No hacking etc took place, just plain theft from corp, and that stolen isk passed to Ketch.
|
Shikome Alluin
Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: 7sunami which very large alliance was renting out space to isk farmers? Curious minds like to know :)
Tyrrax, our former loved (we dont love you anymore, smack smack etc) uberlord rented out space to farmers... Your space infact
|
|
Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:48:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mjabi Again afaik, the account was theirs to access. No hacking etc took place, just plain theft from corp, and that stolen isk passed to Ketch.
So, the guy that was taking the isk owned the account?
Oh, wait, not as you explained it.
So, account hacking.
|
Kirana Si
House of Lubrication
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:51:00 -
[32]
You should call 0900-GM-Gandalf for insta-help, i heard he is very active in the Vale/Geminate area
|
Rudi Storm
SGL
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 10:55:00 -
[33]
If I get this right...
A large amount of the original titan cost was from an account that was obviously getting the money from ISK farmers. Those same ISK Farmers that sell ISK for RL money on the web which in itself is punishable? Not arguing the way you got the money (corp theft). But the way the original ISK was obtained is the problem.
Lets say I steal a car and then sell it to you for 10$. I doubt the cops will let you keep the car if you get caught with it.
I don't see a reason why CCP should be blamed. You knew where the money came from and you should therefore know what you are getting yourself into.
|
Slobodanka
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:12:00 -
[34]
Here's how I see it: Once upon a time there was an alliance (quite big it seems) that rented their space. Member of this alliance, called Pilot X (BTW I don't think thats his real name o.0) was in charge or rent ISK. This same Pilot X was (apart from his accounting role) also a bit of entrepreneur on the side. From ISK he collected as rent for space he took a cut for himself (called 'corp theft' in eve, very popular and you get extra epeen points for it on CAOD forums). From this not-so-honest ISK (but still not illegal ISK, just immoral) Pilot X (maybe his name should be Steve or something like that, Pilot X is so '80s) a.k.a. Steve gave some of it to pilot called Ketch, member of Daisho. Gov'ment also took Ketch's baby, his titan.
From above we can see that at no point noone accessed account that was not theirs. Steve (formerly known as Pilot X) accessed his account to collect rent, steal from corp and transfer stolen ISK to Ketch. Ketch on the other hand only used his account to recieve stolen ISK and pilot titan.
The only problem I see here could be where did rent money come from: If it was farmed by ISK farmers... I don't see any problems with that as long as it wasn't macroed. I don't know of any part of EULA that prohibits making ISK in eve, except if you use macro or exploit/bug (which we all like and use as much as possible, don't we 'big alliance'? :p). So no problems here. If it wasn't farmed by ISK farmers but was in fact bought for RL money, then the person doing the buying should take the heat.
All that said, I think there might have been something else going on, and not necessarily of sexual nature. Account sharing (which is done with titan pilot on daily basis), macroing (big alliance that rents it's space to 'asdf543' corp/alliance and do their own macro thing) and other possible EULA violations.
I'd say Ketch & Co. ****ed up and took the heat as a result, however only they (and maybe CCP) know the whole story and I don't think they plan on spilling their guts any time soon.
Now where is that raven fleet of mine...
|
Shinigami
Gallente Shinra
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:20:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rudi Storm If I get this right...
A large amount of the original titan cost was from an account that was obviously getting the money from ISK farmers. Those same ISK Farmers that sell ISK for RL money on the web which in itself is punishable? Not arguing the way you got the money (corp theft). But the way the original ISK was obtained is the problem.
Lets say I steal a car and then sell it to you for 10$. I doubt the cops will let you keep the car if you get caught with it.
I don't see a reason why CCP should be blamed. You knew where the money came from and you should therefore know what you are getting yourself into.
Agreed. They should unban him, but not return the titan.
|
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:21:00 -
[36]
I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
Moran Trayga
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: KIAEddZ I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
Would Daisho be willing to refund all the logistics/kills/advantages they gained with the ill-gotten titan? - MORAN TRAYGA - |
Narciss Sevar
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: KIAEddZ I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
Perhaps it has something to do with the only two storys we have here is 1. He owned the account so was laundering isk for isk farmers, but took some for himself and bought a titan with it. Or 2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
|
Adeptus mecanicus
The Flaming Sideburn's Blackguard Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:36:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Narciss Sevar Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
i heard that sharing cyno hoe' acounts is allowed......isnt a titan pilot a big ass' cyno hoe' theese days? ]
Grunt's |
Hotshothotshot1
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:44:00 -
[40]
Whahahahaa.
|
|
Muadeeb Ousil
Minmatar Office linebackers Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:52:00 -
[41]
To be honest the trust might be out there but it ain't on the forums.
The simple fact is that the whole purchase of the Titan is somewhat dubious and theirfor the decicion to remove it seems more than understandable.
I know the Dashio didn't rent out in their previous space because i was down that way at the same time, but the simple fact is that the Alliance did benefit with a Titan based on an income stream from dubious source, so im not sympathetic.
On the other hand if CCP intends on removing PPL's assets who rent out space to isk farmers, they better give some warning out in advance.
Because there will be more than one Alliance effected at the end of it and clearly the rules should be clarified.
|
Vidtorin
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 11:59:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:01:38 Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
Please read what has been posted before making, what is considered a false statement.
It has also been disclosed that someone from the big alliance gave ketch the isk, and at no stage has he logged on to that account and took the isk for him self.
As i said, to reiterate, it has also been said the isk was given to him. What you are saying is purely speculation.
But with out CCP posting, in all fairness, this whole thread is speculation.
I'm not posting my opinion here, but i am defending a friend
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
|
Karlvon
Gallente x100x
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:03:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vidtorin Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:01:38 Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
Please read what has been posted before making, what is considered a false statement.
It has also been disclosed that someone from the big alliance gave ketch the isk, and at no stage has he logged on to that account and took the isk for him self.
As i said, to reiterate, it has also been said the isk was given to him. What you are saying is purely speculation.
But with out CCP posting, in all fairness, this whole thread is speculation.
I'm not posting my opinion here, but i am defending a friend
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
If true, than report it please, or STFU. Or you support account sharing in KIA ? Cause account sharing is forbidden and that from very valid reason.
|
Narciss Sevar
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Vidtorin Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:01:38 Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
2. He didn't own the account but logged in and took money from it, essentially hacking the account. Let's remember sharing accounts is illegal also.
Please read what has been posted before making, what is considered a false statement.
It has also been disclosed that someone from the big alliance gave ketch the isk, and at no stage has he logged on to that account and took the isk for him self.
As i said, to reiterate, it has also been said the isk was given to him. What you are saying is purely speculation.
But with out CCP posting, in all fairness, this whole thread is speculation.
I'm not posting my opinion here, but i am defending a friend
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
I hope they ban all those leaders of alliances that share accounts then.
|
Mo'Chuisle
Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:42:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mo''Chuisle on 18/08/2008 12:42:28
Edited by: Vidtorin on 18/08/2008 12:00:27
Quote:
Lastly, as much as account sharing is illegal, if you have ever been in any big alliance, you will find that most of the time, the admin account (that been the CEO of the alliance if you like) is shared ammoung the alliance leadership.
That making quite a few alliances i know of, to be void
Which would be pretty stupid as all you need is to have a director level character in the executor corp to be able to run the alliance, so everyone who needs access can just put an alt into the executor corp.
|
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:47:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Narciss Sevar I hope they ban all those leaders of alliances that share accounts then.
Indeed.
Vidt isnt a KIA director and I know he isnt talking about KIA, I guess he has intimate knowledge of some other Alliances sops.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Devoras2 or SentryRav |
Vidtorin
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:51:00 -
[47]
Originally by: KIAEddZ
Originally by: Narciss Sevar I hope they ban all those leaders of alliances that share accounts then.
Indeed.
Vidt isnt a KIA director and I know he isnt talking about KIA, I guess he has intimate knowledge of some other Alliances sops.
Sorry i forgot to say, i was not referring to KIA, or any alliance associated with KIA, IE, DaiSho..i was referring to previous alliances i have been in, which i am not going to name
|
ishkabibble
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 12:58:00 -
[48]
Something about this story just doesnt feel right....
CCP took a shot on the chin with the T20 garbage almost 2 years ago with all the "you know who" making a big stink about it and outing other people in game.
I seriously doubt they will follow that same path unless they had something solid or valid content for the ban of the titan pilot.
Feels like we are missing a couple of pieces of this puzzle Support Sarmaul's Genius MWD Alternative |
Vecila
Live and Learn Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:01:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg So he took isk from an account that wasnt his?
Sounds like another EULA violation to this pod pilot.
On a purely intelligence argument, did he not realize this might (just a little bit) look like an ISK purchase to ccp?
Well you see this is the problem, ccps system (unlike other mmos that general set stick rules) is at gm discretion, no two player therefore are ever treated equal and the worst is always assumed wihtout proof. In other words, you play the game for 4 years and a gm see something odd, something he cannot prove (and you cannot either usually) you are the one in the wrong.
Doesn't matter how long you've been a customer, you just be banned and told to do away - which, assuming you do buy isk, isn't a problem because you can just get another skilled account - it's only legitimate players the system punishes like this (excluding the withdrawal of isk/negative wallet issue).
Which makes me ask, why is he banned for (assuming the opening post are correct) using legitimate mechanics that happen all the time? Why did they* remove his assets instead of removing the isk from his wallet? Why does ccp still wonder why it's game has never reached the same league as other mmos...
My condolences to KIA, you're good people who always push yourselves to the limit, but i hope this at least opens your eyes to ccps business model. Eve has always had the potential to be huge, but even ccp admits older players usually pack up and leave, idk about you but from almost 3 yeas of observation i haven't seen any attempt to keep them, more often than not the opposite.
|
Revolution Rising
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:07:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Slobodanka Here's how I see it: Once upon a time there was an alliance (quite big it seems) that rented their space. Member of this alliance, called Pilot X (BTW I don't think thats his real name o.0) was in charge or rent ISK. This same Pilot X was (apart from his accounting role) also a bit of entrepreneur on the side. From ISK he collected as rent for space he took a cut for himself (called 'corp theft' in eve, very popular and you get extra epeen points for it on CAOD forums). From this not-so-honest ISK (but still not illegal ISK, just immoral) Pilot X (maybe his name should be Steve or something like that, Pilot X is so '80s) a.k.a. Steve gave some of it to pilot called Ketch, member of Daisho. Gov'ment also took Ketch's baby, his titan.
From above we can see that at no point noone accessed account that was not theirs. Steve (formerly known as Pilot X) accessed his account to collect rent, steal from corp and transfer stolen ISK to Ketch. Ketch on the other hand only used his account to recieve stolen ISK and pilot titan.
The only problem I see here could be where did rent money come from: If it was farmed by ISK farmers... I don't see any problems with that as long as it wasn't macroed. I don't know of any part of EULA that prohibits making ISK in eve, except if you use macro or exploit/bug (which we all like and use as much as possible, don't we 'big alliance'? :p). So no problems here. If it wasn't farmed by ISK farmers but was in fact bought for RL money, then the person doing the buying should take the heat.
All that said, I think there might have been something else going on, and not necessarily of sexual nature. Account sharing (which is done with titan pilot on daily basis), macroing (big alliance that rents it's space to 'asdf543' corp/alliance and do their own macro thing) and other possible EULA violations.
I'd say Ketch & Co. ****ed up and took the heat as a result, however only they (and maybe CCP) know the whole story and I don't think they plan on spilling their guts any time soon.
Now where is that raven fleet of mine...
So stealing isk that was isk from an isk seller is laundered isk? I dont think so...
Perhaps if Pilot X had not performed nefarious act A then Pilot Y and Z who then performed nefarious acts B and C would not have had CCP performed amoral but legal acts F and U on them.
|
|
Saffronique
Epic Hyena Props
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:10:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Mjabi
Lesson.. dont skim isk off the top of ISK farmer's rent payments! He got exactly what he deserved.
|
Raukho
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:10:00 -
[52]
So he took ISK that he knew that belonged to or was easily linked to ISK farmers and he is suprised they think he bought ISK? I can't judge if he bought it or not but I'd say he was not thinking very well how it would look if CCP noticed the large sum transactions and would go on an investigation.
|
Saffronique
Epic Hyena Props
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:17:00 -
[53]
Why the **** KIA feels the need to talk for Daisho.. I'll never know.. Last month Eddz was a PURE spokesman.. today hes a Diasho one..
Seriously diaff.
|
Vecila
Live and Learn Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:38:00 -
[54]
So..
1. Kia pilot has 2 accounts, he uses one to infiltrate alliance x, alliance x promote him and he is in charge of alliance funds.
2. Alliance x rent space, Kia alt begins stealing isk using legitimate, in game (proven) means.
3. Kia pilot transfers stolen isk to his main, they purchases titan.
4. Ccp decided those renters were in fact farmers* (what happened to them, are they banned now too?) and remove isk, in Kias case they destroy the asset purchased with the isk.
5. Pilot quits.
*important Ccp use their logs combined with the billing accounts to determine who is indeed legitimate farmers, and it take time not done on a whim, however these details are strictly confidential. They are also, the only true way of telling if another character is a farmer and without them you cannot say 100% either way if a character is a farmer of just a dedicated ratter.
Bout right?
If so, then the problem i see, is that the player is being punished for not having access to the confidential data ccp has, therefore has no true way of knowing the pilots from which he is taking isk are farmers. In other words it's his fault for not knowing, and he is punnished for his ignorance?
If you buy isk it gets removed, if you buy items they get destroyed, fi you rent to farmers you get both (the new one).
So what's the lesson? Simple.
If you are in an alliance, and you are renting space and ccp decide those renters are farmers, the company you have payed for so long will turn against you, remove your isk, destroy your assets, and generally give a big f u. Obviously it ill be you're fault there are people on the other side of the planet farming isk, you're fault for not checking ccp logs or billing details, and your fault for not having access to the information.
Might i also suggest Ed that you start a thread on the "other" forums before this one ultimately gets locked?
|
Izakbar
Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:39:00 -
[55]
cry me a river...
ho ho ho
|
Nastasia Muse
Caldari deii feram
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 13:51:00 -
[56]
A short play in one act, called "How CCP Could Be ******ed And Not Punish This":
Quote:
Buyer: "Dude, gimme 5 billion what's our paypal?"
Seller: "keke this is numma one gold."
CCP: "Alrighty you're both banned, sunshines. We've been watching these transactions."
Buyer: "Nah, I stole it from him, see? That's not a disposable middleman account I buy ISK on, it's a l33t spyzor."
CCP: "Oh well. Without access to paypal logs there is no way we can prove a consideration was given so I suppose we'll have to let you go."
|
mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 14:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Vecila
1. Kia pilot has 2 accounts, he uses one to infiltrate alliance x, alliance x promote him and he is in charge of alliance funds.
I suggest you reread the OP.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Doddy
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 14:59:00 -
[58]
Isk that ccp traces as bought or stolen through account theft is always taken back, even when that isk has been changed into something else. If a transaction had occured they would probably not have a problem, but it didn't. Eve general often has people moaning cos their carrier or whatever has been repossesed after they "borrowed" some isk from someone who gained it by nefarious means. They are invariably told to stfu, esp if they had an inkling the isk was not cool. There is no reason why a titan should be any different. The ban is something of a different manner i would imagine ccp think things went somewhat deeper.
|
Wesley Baird
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 15:35:00 -
[59]
Heres the lesson boyz and girlz stay the F away from isk farmers...as having anything to do with them will get you banned...hope everyone listens...as there are a few big alliances who seem to have some funny blues :)
I say ban away...you take isk from group you know to be scum, then too bad...I hope the others who are doing the same also get his with the ban stick...which is way so many leaders of alliance let others in their alliance "deal with renters" because they dont want to get hit with the ban stick...
|
Brigsby5987
Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 15:50:00 -
[60]
Killing isk farmers in 0,0 is far more profitable tbh. __________________________________________ When Will I be able to post again ? 13 days, 23 hours, 55 minutes, 36 seconds |
|
Lowa
Gallente North Star Networks Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:01:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Wesley Baird Heres the lesson boyz and girlz stay the F away from isk farmers...as having anything to do with them will get you banned...
To be honest Wes, from all reports (yes, ofc not all as CCP doesnt present any statistics of banned Farmers) from players it seems that as CCP doesnt do anything sustainable about it when reported and deffo not without anyone alerting them. Other than the stories of what seems to be dubious actions from GM's and players alike fromt time to time we know nothing. Sadly. We dont even know the extent of this problem (illigal farmers that is) but a fair guess would be big. What we do know is that its practically impossible to kill them off once you are infected. (Impossible to fit cloak to ship if char name = anything that doesnt make sense and has numbers in it! )
I agree that one should stay away from Farmers no question about, it but what if the farmers dont stay away from you?
This perticular case seems to be so boarderline I wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole without first hand knowledge.
/Lowa
|
Kian Jorry
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:03:00 -
[62]
And today's lesson for wannabe launderers is:
Don't buy titans with stolen isk.
|
gnshadowninja
Caldari Baptism oF Fire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:07:00 -
[63]
As a long term player this only worries me for one reason, If a farmer buys something off the market from me will i get screwed over and banned? That seems to be happening, fair enough if people buy it and its transfered butlogs will show that Plyer X took the large sum of money from the alliance/corp funds and transfered to his main then went straight into the titan.
I think CCP need to sort there act out and fast, before they loose more players for being stupid and not looking at facts.
|
Worzel Gummidge
Caldari The Scarecrows
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:27:00 -
[64]
Originally by: gnshadowninja As a long term player this only worries me for one reason, If a farmer buys something off the market from me will i get screwed over and banned? That seems to be happening, fair enough if people buy it and its transfered butlogs will show that Plyer X took the large sum of money from the alliance/corp funds and transfered to his main then went straight into the titan.
I think CCP need to sort there act out and fast, before they loose more players for being stupid and not looking at facts.
What should happen is the entire transaction should be reversed, you get your item back and the isk is then subtracted from your account (minus fees). Not sure if this happens though.
I'm wondering if Ketch logged into this other account, if so then could CCP construe that both accounts were being run by the same person and ban both of them. Otherwise, Ketch should have the exact amount of isk in question subtracted from his account but should not be banned.
My opinion anyway
|
Mariko San
REUNI0N
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:38:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
ok, this is just a ridiculous statement. If someone (corp/alliance) rents space out and profits from it, that is part of the game. It's ccp's job to figure out if someone is selling isk and ban those isk farmers and people who they can prove bought it with cash. An alliance/corp. doesn't have to investigate who they rent space to as they are just playing the game. And to take a titan without proving someone bought isk for cash and showing that all the minerals and isk that went into it were from purchased isk is irresponsible on CCP's part. Of course quite a few of us have been screwed by CCP before on characters, ships, isk, etc., so maybe CCP just wants it to be part of the game (getting screwed).
|
HostageTaker
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:42:00 -
[66]
Hand Cookie Jar Result.
The End.
>>> EvE-Online Wallpapers <<< |
mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:43:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Wesley Baird Heres the lesson boyz and girlz stay the F away from isk farmers...as having anything to do with them will get you banned...hope everyone listens...as there are a few big alliances who seem to have some funny blues :)
I say ban away...you take isk from group you know to be scum, then too bad...I hope the others who are doing the same also get his with the ban stick...which is way so many leaders of alliance let others in their alliance "deal with renters" because they dont want to get hit with the ban stick...
Ole Wes here is spot on IMO. It is silly to say "ban the whole alliance", but any accounts that are involved in this whether they have a titan or not I have nothing against this action being taken.
I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:51:00 -
[68]
Originally by: gnshadowninja As a long term player this only worries me for one reason, If a farmer buys something off the market from me will i get screwed over and banned? That seems to be happening, fair enough if people buy it and its transfered butlogs will show that Plyer X took the large sum of money from the alliance/corp funds and transfered to his main then went straight into the titan.
I think CCP need to sort there act out and fast, before they loose more players for being stupid and not looking at facts.
Going by what a GM said in another thread, they would just give the isk buyer a -ve wallet. They only reverse market transactions where somebody buys 1 trit for 5 billion isk from a verified isk seller etc.
There are a few threads in eve-search about it. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 16:53:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mariko San It's ccp's job to figure out if someone is selling isk and ban those isk farmers and people who they can prove bought it with cash. An alliance/corp. doesn't have to investigate who they rent space to as they are just playing the game. And to take a titan without proving someone bought isk for cash and showing that all the minerals and isk that went into it were from purchased isk is irresponsible on CCP's part.
Agreed.
It isn't up to us to NOT engage with people who are playing this game - if they're playing then CCP have deemed them to be in adherence with EULA - it isn't our job to enforce EULA, it is ccp's. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
|
Saltire
Digital assassins
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 17:00:00 -
[70]
got caught, move on....fail
|
|
Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 17:03:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 18/08/2008 17:04:34
Originally by: KIAEddZ I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
Be carefull what you say man, think of your public image like you always do. If you put your support behind that guy - i'm really trying hard not to make fun dino's IQ and his emo rage posts, your popularity might go so much down that they won't invite you on the next tournament championship.
Also ... LOL. Shows how bright Daishio/Kia pilots are. I hope they keep the ban on him, he emo-rage-quits and Daishio does the same. :)
|
The BigOne
Gallente Redheads and Railguns
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 17:35:00 -
[72]
Double bubble, toil and trouble... Scandal's afoot, we see.... Ask not in Geminate for Justice Young fool, the reaper, he reaps for thee.
|
Zumina Apoca
Amarr Apoca Balder Trading
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 18:32:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Mariko San It's ccp's job to figure out if someone is selling isk and ban those isk farmers and people who they can prove bought it with cash. An alliance/corp. doesn't have to investigate who they rent space to as they are just playing the game. And to take a titan without proving someone bought isk for cash and showing that all the minerals and isk that went into it were from purchased isk is irresponsible on CCP's part.
Agreed.
It isn't up to us to NOT engage with people who are playing this game - if they're playing then CCP have deemed them to be in adherence with EULA - it isn't our job to enforce EULA, it is ccp's.
Nice of you to say even though it was BOB he was screwing over with his wifes account.... or thats the word in the kitchen atleast
|
Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 19:46:00 -
[74]
Isk selling is bad, no doubt about it.
What would be nice is if CCP clarified the rules on any Isk comming from an Isk-seller's account. Because its just possible that this time a business arrangement (space rental fee) is being deemed as an illegal Isk sale.
I guess the real question is: Can an Isk seller have a LEGITIMATE transaction? Or does the sale of Isk completely invalidate all transactions ever made by that isk seller?
This COULD have been an instance where Account One was collecting rental fees, and skimming some of the money over to Account Two. Since the spying/theft is a condoned CCP activity, the question becomes: Did Account One know that he was dealing with isk farmers? Or does that even matter? My bet is that it don't matter: Isk-farmed cash is tainted, and if you profited from it in any way then you lose. |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 19:51:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Zumina Apoca Nice of you to say even though it was BOB he was screwing over with his wifes account.... or thats the word in the kitchen atleast
We don't take payments for space any more. And, please forward any farmer names to rogerwilco or col Mammoth, they love them. |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 19:53:00 -
[76]
Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 20:00:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Princess Jodi Isk selling is bad, no doubt about it.
What would be nice is if CCP clarified the rules on any Isk comming from an Isk-seller's account. Because its just possible that this time a business arrangement (space rental fee) is being deemed as an illegal Isk sale.
I guess the real question is: Can an Isk seller have a LEGITIMATE transaction? Or does the sale of Isk completely invalidate all transactions ever made by that isk seller?
This COULD have been an instance where Account One was collecting rental fees, and skimming some of the money over to Account Two. Since the spying/theft is a condoned CCP activity, the question becomes: Did Account One know that he was dealing with isk farmers? Or does that even matter? My bet is that it don't matter: Isk-farmed cash is tainted, and if you profited from it in any way then you lose.
CCP is not a bunch of mouth breathing, slack jaws.
There is two sides to every story, and then theirs the truth. So pointless speculating is just that. |
0ren Ishi
Caldari Sine Nomine Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 20:17:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr With no official word from CCP we have no way of knowing what happened. I've been playing for five years, so I know quite a few players. The number of "what the ñ#%&!!"-cases is on the rise.
Perhaps Quality Control at GM-headquaters need a swift kick in the nuts?
I am guessing CCP Navigator got given a promotion from forum caretaker to taking out the sh*t. |
Milkman Dani
Gallente RuffRyders Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 22:17:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Milkman Dani on 18/08/2008 22:18:51 Edited by: Milkman Dani on 18/08/2008 22:17:59
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
This right here is what should have been said by anyone first.
We all farm for isk to spend on ships, but selling it and buying it is illegal. I don't think that dude should have been banned, because all he did was liberated enslaved isk that was going to be sold off to some d-bag that felt lazy and didn't want to spend the time to sell a GTC the legal way, or rat/mine/build things. I think anyone that buys isk a huge d-bag. The only good way to make isk, is to farm for it, and if you don't have the time to farm it or mine it, then sell a GTC the legal way through your evo account. I wouldn't wanna tell some ****** group that is selling isk for rl money my credit card info.. who know's who they are or what they'd do with your card info.
Anyway, I wanted to Quote Diana for truth here. |
Kresh Vladir
The Movement
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 22:35:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Kian Jorry And today's lesson for wannabe launderers is:
Don't buy titans with stolen isk.
I would say its: Ppl on CAOD and Internet are morons, omg how can ppl not get it?!?!? Im not smart but ffs some guys (read most) are regular idiots |
|
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 22:38:00 -
[81]
Pure comedy gold. |
Lady Branwen
Amarr Tribal Liberation Force
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 22:44:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Lady Branwen on 18/08/2008 22:44:21
Originally by: Milkman Dani Edited by: Milkman Dani on 18/08/2008 22:18:51 Edited by: Milkman Dani on 18/08/2008 22:17:59
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
This right here is what should have been said by anyone first.
We all farm for isk to spend on ships, but selling it and buying it is illegal. I don't think that dude should have been banned, because all he did was liberated enslaved isk that was going to be sold off to some d-bag that felt lazy and didn't want to spend the time to sell a GTC the legal way, or rat/mine/build things. I think anyone that buys isk a huge d-bag. The only good way to make isk, is to farm for it, and if you don't have the time to farm it or mine it, then sell a GTC the legal way through your evo account. I wouldn't wanna tell some ****** group that is selling isk for rl money my credit card info.. who know's who they are or what they'd do with your card info.
Anyway, I wanted to Quote Diana for truth here.
this
Originally by: Lady Branwen So let me get this straight, CCP are ascertaining thatthere was no theft, and isk was bought from a "known" (only to CCP right ?) isk seller ? If that is correct, can anyone explain what a "known" isk seller is doing with an account to play eve at all ? CCP ?
and this |
Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 22:52:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Angor
Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
Yes, and I am also sure that LV didn't profit from such isk selling sweatshops in the form of "rent". Or Bob, or RA, or Goons, or "insert alliance here"
Only alliances that don't have developers in them get hit for stuff like that. Of course EVERY huge spaceholder in this game "rents" space to isk farmers. If the isk farmers didn't have access to 0.0, they wouldn't be able to farm like they do.
|
Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 22:54:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
This, from the alliance that has no doubt made the most isk from farmers in the history of eve.
Except you call it "rent".
|
sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 23:02:00 -
[85]
Originally by: KIAEddZ Why was the character banned? Why not just take the Titan that they suspect is bought with farmed ISK, I dont understand why they have banned the account.
Harsh Ketch, feel for you bud, but as Mjabi says, don't give up m8, Daisho needs you.
If they believed the player was buying isk, then yes he should be banned. its against the rules.
|
mishkof
Caldari Finis Lumen
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 23:04:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Milkman Dani Edited by: Milkman Dani on 18/08/2008 22:18:51 Edited by: Milkman Dani on 18/08/2008 22:17:59
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
This right here is what should have been said by anyone first.
We all farm for isk to spend on ships, but selling it and buying it is illegal. I don't think that dude should have been banned, because all he did was liberated enslaved isk that was going to be sold off to some d-bag that felt lazy and didn't want to spend the time to sell a GTC the legal way, or rat/mine/build things. I think anyone that buys isk a huge d-bag. The only good way to make isk, is to farm for it, and if you don't have the time to farm it or mine it, then sell a GTC the legal way through your evo account. I wouldn't wanna tell some ****** group that is selling isk for rl money my credit card info.. who know's who they are or what they'd do with your card info.
Anyway, I wanted to Quote Diana for truth here.
I simply cannot believe that this outcome from taking multiple large DIRECT payments from a known seller, and then spending it on a high ticket items really surprises anyone here. Since you know this is how CCP operate and you go ahead and accept the ISK anyways...on a titan account...Well then you have bigger problems then getting banned.
These arent new rules. Just this time a titan was lost in the process, that is the only real reason I think people are all huffy and puffy about it. People are now thinking "if a titan can disappear then all bets are off".
This is why the contract system exists, and is the reason the only true payment for living in space is Xing up and defending it IMO. I also highly doubt we have heard the whole story as well.
|
fugazii
Deep Space Productions
|
Posted - 2008.08.18 23:55:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Richard Angevian
Originally by: Angor
Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
Yes, and I am also sure that LV didn't profit from such isk selling sweatshops in the form of "rent". Or Bob, or RA, or Goons, or "insert alliance here"
Only alliances that don't have developers in them get hit for stuff like that. Of course EVERY huge spaceholder in this game "rents" space to isk farmers. If the isk farmers didn't have access to 0.0, they wouldn't be able to farm like they do.
I don't think you get what the word "rent" means in relation to how farmed is being used. And yes, the farmers wouldn't be able to farm like they do if they didn't have access to 0.0, ...they'd have to do it in empire through lv4's. Immune to wardec's, very little threat of ever being ganked which means they have 0 downtime aside from DT, they don't need to waste a high slot with a cloak, they have no supply of ammo issues, they can have a alt salvaging everything for even more isk made, and ofc the best part they're killing high bounty npc's unlike 0.0 where they're living in scrub sec status systems.
The fact that 0.0 alliances are taking isk from farmers actually helps curb the illegal isk trade within this game. Not only is less isk in the farmers pockets due to their rental fee's, but at the same time they're being kept in low isk making area's of space rather then being forced into empire where there isn't rental fee's and the amount of isk being made through missions is far greater. |
Enthes goldhart
Gallente Enraged.
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 00:51:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Enthes goldhart on 19/08/2008 00:51:52
Originally by: fugazii
The fact that 0.0 alliances are taking isk from farmers actually helps curb the illegal isk trade within this game. Not only is less isk in the farmers pockets due to their rental fee's, but at the same time they're being kept in low isk making area's of space rather then being forced into empire where there isn't rental fee's and the amount of isk being made through missions is far greater.
Im pretty sure if u mine in 0.0 u will earn more isk |
teh punisher
Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 02:46:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Shinigami
Originally by: Rudi Storm If I get this right...
A large amount of the original titan cost was from an account that was obviously getting the money from ISK farmers. Those same ISK Farmers that sell ISK for RL money on the web which in itself is punishable? Not arguing the way you got the money (corp theft). But the way the original ISK was obtained is the problem.
Lets say I steal a car and then sell it to you for 10$. I doubt the cops will let you keep the car if you get caught with it.
I don't see a reason why CCP should be blamed. You knew where the money came from and you should therefore know what you are getting yourself into.
Agreed. They should unban him, but not return the titan.
no, they shouldn't unban him. keeping with the same analogy, the police wouldn't let the guy who bought the car for $10 to just go and walk free after they get caught. |
teh punisher
Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 02:48:00 -
[90]
Originally by: KIAEddZ I don't know what happened in detail as to the isk that ketch put in, only whats said here and what has been passed to me, but I do wander why the 40ish Billion Isk that Daisho Alliance put into the purchase of the Titan, which was legitimate isk, has not been refunded to them?
Also, why is the Titan Pilot Account been banned?
I guess there might be more to all of this, but from the little information filtering through, it seems pretty harsh.
this is a pretty stupid idea actually. why do you think ccp should reimburse you all that money when you used some isk-farmed money to top up your titan account? because a lot of people spent time and effort gathering the money? it's absolutely stupid to draw an arbitrary line saying "we'll help reimburse you, but only if the amount of isk involved is above xxx billion." showing favors to the daisho guys to get their money back would be cheating the other players that they don't help. |
|
Adaline Gray
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 02:56:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
So how does CCP know when or if RL money changes hands? They can't actually prove RL money changed hands ever. It is impossible for them to know. So they just assume every single transaction is illegal without any proof. It is pretty insane if you ask me. |
Iroku Mata
Minmatar Endovelicus Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 03:14:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Ketch Kan
and no i will not name the alliance for who the isk was intended
That shows your word is nothing worth, all above is only excusses, you deserve to be banned of the game! BYE... have fun in AOC... |
Iroku Mata
Minmatar Endovelicus Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 03:16:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Labrat7
Originally by: 7sunami which very large alliance was renting out space to isk farmers? Curious minds like to know :)
It was BoB.
LOL... look how stupid you are... BoB is CCP dude, they can generate how much ISK they want to! |
AJ Scout
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 04:51:00 -
[94]
Edited by: AJ Scout on 19/08/2008 04:54:30
What proves Ketch is full of it is how many versions of the "story" he has put out.
The first story was he got isk from a isk resellers deposit account.
Now it is stolen isk from a deposit account of a very large alliance in which case they would NOT be selling isk for RL money with this account so there should be no link to isk sellers.
Then there is internally posted on Daisho forums it was his "wife" who gave him the isk from a BoB deposit account . . . So she runs this deposit account, she was not banned, she would have to sell the ISK for RL isk for Ketch to be banned and if it was my wife who was banned cause I gave her isk from a deposit account I think I would come out of the closest even if that meant me being removed from my current corp/alliance.
The fact there is more then one "story" little lone 3 proves he is guilty. |
Crotador
Minmatar The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 06:52:00 -
[95]
Doesn't take genius to work out who the alliance is. Question is... does that alliance want thier isk back? Are they going to give Daisho a kicking for it...
|
Mynera Nic'Atoch
Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 07:05:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Mynera Nic''Atoch on 19/08/2008 07:06:10 OK .. now I'm confused. If Katch was stealing isk from a 'large alliance' and got banned from the game because of the source of the isk - how many of the 'large alliance's' directors got banned from the game too?
This whole story smells of fish.
Myn |
Team leader
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 07:08:00 -
[97]
well good work gm's at least ur not asleep... clamp down more on these isk farmer's aliance's keep up the good workv ....enjoy ur stay in eve is all i can say |
Pilot X
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 07:08:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Mjabi Edited by: Mjabi on 18/08/2008 10:43:30
Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Wait, so the guy didn't get the isk from isk sellers, he just stole it from someone elses account?
yeah that's a lot better, nice work
This is as I know it to be.
Someone (lets call him Pilot X) from the large Alliance was tasked with managing the isk that influxxed from renters and also the farmers in the Alliances regions.
Pilot X skimmed money of the top of this ISK. He gave a lump of his skimmed cash to Ketch, simply as a gift. Ketch knew it came from Renters to that other Alliance.
This money was added to Daisho Alliance funds and a Titan Purchased.
It was plain corp theft on behalf of Pilot X which as we know is celebrated in Eve and not against the EULA.
I was framed I say and deny any knowledge of said act or involvement ! |
Darriele
Minmatar Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 07:44:00 -
[99]
The way i see it: If CCP cannot provide real proofs that that isk has been bought using Real Money, then clearly the person in cause (the isk buying suspect) is inocent.
And sadly CCP cannot know who bought isk or who didnt.
My advice to Daisho is to make a legal action (consumer protection / or even in law court) against CCP if they consider that they suffered an abuse.
Afterall we pay for this game, so as customers we have our rights guaranteed by any decent country laws.
|
128th ABC123
Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 08:15:00 -
[100]
I dont know what the deal is with Daisho, but personally I feel very strongly about the fact that CCP needs to fix this problem. It is NOT the responsibility of the players to police the game even though CCP would like it to be.
I pay a hell of alot of money for 4 accounts and if they want to fix this issue they better hire some more personel instead of trying to outsource work to their playerbase.
I honestly expect to sit back on my ass and play this game and not be bothered by iskselling, scamming etc. All they need to do (for a shitload of money) is keep this m-****ing server online and add some content now and then. Listen to player feedback and balance it out. It is up to CCP to keep the game balanced, you cannot expect players to ask themselves the question all the time "is this legal isk?" like was stated in an other thread, what if I had an isk seller transfer a large ammount of isk to somebodies account and then petition him? How would that work out?
Now... Please CCP. STOP ****ING OFF YOUR PLAYERS. |
|
Eudoric Delmar
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 08:18:00 -
[101]
There is no way CCP can prove any real money ever changed hands as I doubt anyone ever send them a recipe. So there is no way they can prove anyone is an isk seller or buyer according to most of the e-lawers.
I think everyone that is mad about this should send me isk from 100m to 2B to make it look like I bought the isk. Lets see if I get the ban stick or can talk my way out of it.
|
Mazca Lopez
x13 X13 Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 08:19:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Darriele The way i see it: If CCP cannot provide real proofs that that isk has been bought using Real Money, then clearly the person in cause (the isk buying suspect) is inocent.
And sadly CCP cannot know who bought isk or who didnt.
My advice to Daisho is to make a legal action (consumer protection / or even in law court) against CCP if they consider that they suffered an abuse.
Afterall we pay for this game, so as customers we have our rights guaranteed by any decent country laws.
you only have a case if they charge you for playing but refuse to let you play the game.... your virtual property is as meaningless to law as raping an inflatable doll would be... |
128th ABC123
Eve Liberation Force Liberty.
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 08:32:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Mazca Lopez
Originally by: Darriele The way i see it: If CCP cannot provide real proofs that that isk has been bought using Real Money, then clearly the person in cause (the isk buying suspect) is inocent.
And sadly CCP cannot know who bought isk or who didnt.
My advice to Daisho is to make a legal action (consumer protection / or even in law court) against CCP if they consider that they suffered an abuse.
Afterall we pay for this game, so as customers we have our rights guaranteed by any decent country laws.
you only have a case if they charge you for playing but refuse to let you play the game.... your virtual property is as meaningless to law as raping an inflatable doll would be...
If you ever dare touch her... |
Darriele
Minmatar Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 08:43:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Mazca Lopez
Originally by: Darriele The way i see it: If CCP cannot provide real proofs that that isk has been bought using Real Money, then clearly the person in cause (the isk buying suspect) is inocent.
And sadly CCP cannot know who bought isk or who didnt.
My advice to Daisho is to make a legal action (consumer protection / or even in law court) against CCP if they consider that they suffered an abuse.
Afterall we pay for this game, so as customers we have our rights guaranteed by any decent country laws.
you only have a case if they charge you for playing but refuse to let you play the game.... your virtual property is as meaningless to law as raping an inflatable doll would be...
That exactly happened to daisho guy, you know he's banned. Without any real proofs, only by using indirect evidences that have no weight because you know, they cannot prove if that isk is dirty or not.
So yes, nothing can stop you from doing that if you feel that you are subject of an abusive treatment from CCP part. |
Mazca Lopez
x13 X13 Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 08:46:00 -
[105]
But if the account is banned I suspect the payment is suspented aswell. so what is lost is a bunch of virtual stuff and countless hous. |
Darriele
Minmatar Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 08:52:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Darriele on 19/08/2008 08:56:04
Originally by: Mazca Lopez But if the account is banned I suspect the payment is suspented aswell. so what is lost is a bunch of virtual stuff and countless hous.
Payment is suspended, true, but what about the remaining days that were payed? Think at this, i pay for 3 months today and tomorrow i get banned. Do i get my money back? Probably 99% i wont. So it's a questionable situation, you lose the "invested" money too, without any ways to recover them. Unless, if CCP does refunds the remaining money, then you cannot make a legal move against them very easily. |
Mazca Lopez
x13 X13 Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 09:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Darriele
Originally by: Mazca Lopez But if the account is banned I suspect the payment is suspented aswell. so what is lost is a bunch of virtual stuff and countless hous.
Payment is suspended, true, but what about the remaining days that were payed? Think at this, i pay for 3 months today and tomorrow i get banned. Do i get my money back? Probably 99% i wont. So it's a questionable situation, you lose the "invested" money too, without any ways to recover them.
where i live a case regarding 60$ is dismissed for being too small to bother with, IF that would be the case.
that said, as a company owner, i would repay remaining money on banned accounts on a general principle. CCP should too, but i guess it's theire choice how they want to brand themselves.. |
Mia Archer
Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 09:15:00 -
[108]
Once CCP took 5 billion isk from me because I transfered it between two characters on different accounts that I am the owner of, for buying isk... true story
CCPs Policies on policing isk selling are no better than their reimubrsment policy that is to say they seem to HAVE no official policy on how to deal with them. Just as 2 ppl can lose ships in the exact same way to the exact same event and one be reimbursed why another isnt. There seems to be no actual system by which GMs determine who bought isk and who didnt. They just ask as they see fit as far as i can tell and make decisions based on their opinions. The GMs in EVE in general are horrible, they are some of the worst GMs in any game I have ever played. Its as if CCP looked for the rudest ppl they could find and then just told them a brief overview of what to do and then let them lose with no guidelines or oversight on their actions at all. |
AJ Scout
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 09:55:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Darriele Edited by: Darriele on 19/08/2008 08:56:04
Originally by: Mazca Lopez But if the account is banned I suspect the payment is suspented aswell. so what is lost is a bunch of virtual stuff and countless hous.
Payment is suspended, true, but what about the remaining days that were payed? Think at this, i pay for 3 months today and tomorrow i get banned. Do i get my money back? Probably 99% i wont. So it's a questionable situation, you lose the "invested" money too, without any ways to recover them. Unless, if CCP does refunds the remaining money, then you cannot make a legal move against them very easily.
Before spewing legal shit you should read the legal document you agreed to signing up for an eve account. You have NO RIGHTS to anything in the game including all characters, isk, objects and otherwise. CCP will refund any pre-paid subscription after 30 days. So if you just paid for 3 months, you will get 2 months returned.
The fact of even trying to do anything legal over a game is laughable, little lone when you have signed an EULA. |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 10:00:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
This is what has been bugging me. If Ketch took some isk that was paid as rent by isk farmers that is all fine - he wouldn't be banned for that. There is nothing wrong with people farming isk to pay rent and you are allowed to steal it. The isk used for paying rent has come from rattting not buying isk as surely they are selling isk not buying it. Or is the story that he skimmed 40B of isk off corps who buy their isk on the internet to pay rent? That is too wierd.
Maybe I just don't get it (highly possible) but it seems to me the one thing Ketch wasn't banned for was stealing isk payed as rent by isk farmers. Can anyone clarify this? |
|
Darriele
Minmatar Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 10:48:00 -
[111]
Originally by: AJ Scout
Before spewing legal shit you should read the legal document you agreed to signing up for an eve account. You have NO RIGHTS to anything in the game including all characters, isk, objects and otherwise. CCP will refund any pre-paid subscription after 30 days. So if you just paid for 3 months, you will get 2 months returned.
The fact of even trying to do anything legal over a game is laughable, little lone when you have signed an EULA.
You are a little bit too out. You didn't payed attention to what i was mumbo-jumbo-ing around. Read again.
Here's a little hint for you. You can go in legal courts too if you really wish no one will stop you.
"# GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland, (HTra=sd=mur Reykjavfkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland. "
|
Crotador
Minmatar The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 11:09:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
Erm... that depends... Most ISK farmers use macros. That is illigal.
|
Rakessh
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Bionic Dawn
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 12:08:00 -
[113]
The only prescription for this is more COWBELL |
Haka Aragon
Caldari Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 12:49:00 -
[114]
Originally by: AJ Scout Edited by: AJ Scout on 19/08/2008 04:56:35
What proves Ketch is full of it is how many versions of the "story" he has put out.
The first story was he got isk from a isk resellers deposit account.
Now it is stolen isk from a deposit account of a very large alliance in which case they would NOT be selling isk for RL money with this account so there should be no link to isk sellers.
Then there is internally posted on Daisho forums it was his "wife" who gave him the isk from a BoB deposit account . . . So she runs this deposit account, she was not banned, she would have to sell the ISK for RL isk for Ketch to be banned and if it was my wife who was banned cause I gave her isk from a deposit account I think I would come out of the closest even if that meant me being removed from my current corp/alliance.
The fact there is more then one "story" little lone 3 proves he is guilty.
Oh and Ketch on times I have flown with him has been cool. IMO he should get the same penetly as anyone else when they get nailed the first time. Temp ban then the isk removed.
Ok, in response to AJ Scout's message.
- Post with your main
- I have searched all through the Daisho forums and can not find any proof of what you see on it.
Unless you can pm me on the Daisho forums or even eve mail me in game with the exact link to the post you are getting the information you say you have then it should be counted as you talking through your ass which is not uncommon for people that dont have the balls to post with their mains. |
Taram Caldar
Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 15:01:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Crotador
Originally by: Dianabolic Oh, and guys?
Farming isk isn't illegal.
Buying / selling isk for RL cash IS illegal.
So no, the only crime is if rl money changed hands - anything beyond that is completely within the game.
Erm... that depends... Most ISK farmers use macros. That is illigal.
Except that this can't be proven which, again, makes the move by CCP questionable.
Sucks to be Daisho right now though :( And I'm sorry to see Ketch go.. He really was a quality guy, a good FC and his loss will hurt Daisho's moralle more than the loss of the Titan will tbh.
In my opinion, and of course that means nothing to CCP, CCP has gone to far here. Nothing against the EULA was done here if the stories being told are true. A player skimmed money off a rent collections character that he owned. He gave some of that skimmed money to ketch... nothing illegal there. And who cares if they were isk farmers... isk farming is not illegal.... Ketch then gave that money to the alliance towards their titan fund.
Titan was purchased with the fund, most of which was 'clean' money the alliance had earned on it's own.... only a portion of the money was the money which had been skimmed from the rent collection character....
Titan purchased and given to Dino to fly... Dino had nothing to do with the isk trail at all if I'm reading this thread right.
CCP gets a burr up their behind and decides the titan was purchased with bought isk and takes the titan... then they ban the Titan pilot acct for good measure?
If no cash ever transfered hands (and I know ketch so I believe him when he says the above is how things went down) then CCP has no reason to do ANY of the above.... Let alone ban an account that had nothing whatsoever to do with the isk trail.
CCP has gone WAY too far... Let's not forget that Daisho has had that Titan for *months*.
|
LLago Cesarii
Gallente Synergy Evolved
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 15:03:00 -
[116]
Strap on the tinfoil guys... Ketch WAS skimming the isk from BoB. How many BoB players have been banned? how many bob Titans bought with Isk farmer isk have been banned? Or is this simply ccp defending their favorite group of players again. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 15:20:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Mia Archer Once CCP took 5 billion isk from me because I transfered it between two characters on different accounts that I am the owner of, for buying isk... true story
If you forgot to petition it, then you deserve to lose those 5 billion. |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 15:47:00 -
[118]
Originally by: LLago Cesarii Strap on the tinfoil guys... Ketch WAS skimming the isk from BoB. How many BoB players have been banned? how many bob Titans bought with Isk farmer isk have been banned? Or is this simply ccp defending their favorite group of players again.
LOL, no, he really wasn't. We don't DO space rental any more, did you miss the memo? |
britishfish
Minmatar Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 15:55:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Mynera Nic'Atoch Edited by: Mynera Nic''Atoch on 19/08/2008 07:06:10 OK .. now I'm confused. If Katch was stealing isk from a 'large alliance' and got banned from the game because of the source of the isk - how many of the 'large alliance's' directors got banned from the game too?
This whole story smells of fish.
Myn
this i would like to find out also |
Kery Syander
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 16:08:00 -
[120]
I miss the original Dinorryox. |
|
Henky
Research And Development Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 16:50:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Dianabolic
LOL, no, he really wasn't. We don't DO space rental any more, did you miss the memo?
Just quoting you on that bit,
Maybe ccp should take your titans away to, maybe some of that isk you reseived found its way into capital assembly arrays that build the titans . . . , maybe even in the titans
Maybe = Guilty in ccp's view of illigal isk. |
Boom ChickaBoom
Caldari Friendly Pod Poppers
|
Posted - 2008.08.19 17:02:00 -
[122]
Just wondering why KIA would double post. An official dashio thread has already been started by dashio has it not?
Mabee this is KIAedd's alt attention whoring again.
C/D? |
Mia Archer
Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 01:37:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Mia Archer Once CCP took 5 billion isk from me because I transfered it between two characters on different accounts that I am the owner of, for buying isk... true story
If you forgot to petition it, then you deserve to lose those 5 billion.
Oh i did petion thats where it gets even better... they banned/locked the account the isk came from pending investigation for almost a month and left me with a -3billion isk wallet on the other account, then when they decided it was actualy my isk and gave it back they gave it back to the account it came from still leaving me with a -3billion isk wallet so that after waiting a month i had to myself go send the isk again to rebalance the account and hope that they didnt decide i was buying it again |
kublai
Caldari Art of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 02:44:00 -
[124]
You ALL have illegal isk.
In real life, most currency will have faint traces of illegal narcotics, even that belonging to little old grannies, are they crack *****s in disguise?
No, money circulates, as it does in eve, money circulates, the minerals you buy in jita have large odds of being macroed, the man buying your latest invented hulk may be that very macro.
I *know* several people I scammed were isk buyers, not gtc sellers but isk buyers, you deal with enough idiots and you're bound to steal some ill-gotten isk, the worst part is many of them will go "hah, it doesn't matter i'll just go buy more isk off [insert random daft website you shouldn't visit here].
Isk, minerals etc circulates, it begins with a macro miner selling it at low low rates no honest miner can match (without getting quite agitated at any rate), or someone like me scamming a blithering idiot I met in a trade channel, then the isk/minerals are passed onwards, turned into ships etc etc.
Now, "skimming" isk in what is a highly suspect manner which is CLAIMED not to involve account sharing (claims on a forum vs ccp's IP logs etc, whom shall I listen to?), organized sweat-shop farming, oh I know how this works too by the way, i've scammed several people I strongly suspected of being isk farmers, well to be honest several of them told me how their damn operation worked, one man with 5-9 accounts at once ratting with the blessing of some alliance that would have to be BLIND not to notice what this is kicking back ISK to the leadership for the standings and protection.
So from this we can conclude that, if the victim wasn't account sharing, he was in fact in CHARGE of taking the alliance farmer kick back, this is in your face obvious business, the isk farmers themselves don't try to hide it, they don't care what CCP does to them, they buy accounts whole-sale, they have entire farms of the damn things training up their little ravens.
All in all, it's bloody rotten to the core, and we won't get the whole picture on the forums, however if CCP has banned a titan character without due investigation they would have to be monumentally stupid, and while they are only devs, I do not for one second believe them to be that thick, there is a larger picture here, and it stinks.
You found your quick fix, you took the chance, you got burned, stop crying, you knew damn well what you were doing.
Good job CCP.
PS. As some random person will probably point out, I too knowingly "accepted" illegit isk, but the point I was making is, we -all- do, the difference is, I obtain it via the age old legitimate game mechanic of robbing a bugger blind, where as the op did it (not only at a vastly larger scale), but as a business deal to benefit and facilitate EULA violations on a large scale. |
Swirlar
Miners in Black
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 03:05:00 -
[125]
With Darth now stepping down, and Ketch and the titan out of the game, who's taking odds on how long DAI will keep hold of BWF?
Blood's in the water now, leadership is weakened, moral is low, several folks have left the boredom of gate camping OIJ gate on infinitum, and they think they can hide behind cyno-jammers. Roadkill could not, Dai can't either.
Time for some killin! |
Lopin Acheteur
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 13:47:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Swirlar With Darth now stepping down, and Ketch and the titan out of the game, who's taking odds on how long DAI will keep hold of BWF?
Blood's in the water now, leadership is weakened, moral is low, several folks have left the boredom of gate camping OIJ gate on infinitum, and they think they can hide behind cyno-jammers. Roadkill could not, Dai can't either.
Time for some killin!
BWF is near impossible to hold vs people raiding, as it's a very short trip to run back to empire if the defenders outnumber the attackers. But because of that there's next to no reason to actually hold the space, as it isn't very good for mining, or ratting, and doesn't have any good moons. So the real question is who would actually try and take it ? I mean, given it would probably be defended by Goonswarm and KIA in addition to Daisho. You'd be better off attacking some of THEIR space that is acutally alot better. |
IWANTWHATISMINE
LIARSANDTHIEFPAYNOW
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 14:52:00 -
[127]
Hello. Bad situation. Could be worse soon. There are more of you out there. Theives, who will lose all and have to quit eve, how unfortunate, but I will not cry. No skills, no dedication, and use false isk to buy cap ships never earned with real work, and betray friends/corp for isk. Also consider these people hack accounts, and you associate with them, and these are the greatest enemy of CCP, so what does that make you? Then you make cap ship blobs with stolen ISK and think you have skills, and kill off honest players and take their space, and sell it to the isk farmers. You think CCP will be kind to you?
Also perhaps you to consider, maybe someone on the other side considers this offense who you stole from and has arranged for CCP to get data on where your isk comes from and made a clear road to you for all to see. Maybe they are smarter than you think. Maybe it is cheaper to get rid of you than to pay you, they only lose alts and some isk, but the same cost as paying you. Maybe you think you own them, but you never will. Maybe they are tired of being stolen from and lied to, and decide its time to get rid of you. You declare war on them, you stole from them, what you expect. Maybe it is your turn to pay now.
Many options, one is true. One thing always true, in the end you lose.
Some people should never be trusted, and you betray friends/corp to help them is HUGE mistake. You know better road but greed is king of your world. Maybe you are the farmer now, you work for them, they own you. Start ratting your quota.
They never were your friend, and loyal friends are few. Now look at you. No tears, this is the future. This is what happens when you betray real friends to help isk seller.
By the way, can I have your stuff. You know I deserve it. Contract it to me in Jita, I am waiting. |
Paddlefoot Aeon
Neogen Industries Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 15:18:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Paddlefoot Aeon on 20/08/2008 15:19:13
Originally by: kublai
Now, "skimming" isk in what is a highly suspect manner which is CLAIMED not to involve account sharing (claims on a forum vs ccp's IP logs etc, whom shall I listen to?).
Normally this would be true, however with Ketch this doesn't apply. Ketch travels for work, and frequently logs in from various hotels across the US, Canada, England, Europe... and a couple of times from Japan (if i remember correctly). There have been occasions when Ketch has been playing from 3 different time zones within the same week.
I don't know all the details, and neither does anyone posting here. CCP know what their logs and data show, Ketch knows what happened on his end. Despite everything that people are saying about CCP being "evil" and such, I cannot believe that there is a massive attempt to "screw Ketch" on CCP's part. I trust Ketch and believe his series of events, and therefore I believe that CCP has made an honest mistake.
I'm sure that once this misunderstanding is sorted, everything will be put right.
Edit: spelling |
kublai
Caldari Art of War
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 15:58:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Edited by: Paddlefoot Aeon on 20/08/2008 15:19:13
Originally by: kublai
Now, "skimming" isk in what is a highly suspect manner which is CLAIMED not to involve account sharing (claims on a forum vs ccp's IP logs etc, whom shall I listen to?).
Normally this would be true, however with Ketch this doesn't apply. Ketch travels for work, and frequently logs in from various hotels across the US, Canada, England, Europe... and a couple of times from Japan (if i remember correctly). There have been occasions when Ketch has been playing from 3 different time zones within the same week.
I don't know all the details, and neither does anyone posting here. CCP know what their logs and data show, Ketch knows what happened on his end. Despite everything that people are saying about CCP being "evil" and such, I cannot believe that there is a massive attempt to "screw Ketch" on CCP's part. I trust Ketch and believe his series of events, and therefore I believe that CCP has made an honest mistake.
I'm sure that once this misunderstanding is sorted, everything will be put right.
Edit: spelling
If that should be true (it was my brother who stole the stuff honest), I refer you to the next part of my post detailing if he indeed was the man running the account. |
Paddlefoot Aeon
Neogen Industries Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 16:35:00 -
[130]
So, lets play a game of "legal or illegal".
1. Is an Alliance granting access to their space for a price legal or illegal? If illegal, BOB would have gotten in trouble in the past. RED would get in trouble. D2 would have gotten in trouble. Right now, Pandemic Legion is charging to access to Fountain. Clearly... renting space is legal within the terms of the EULA, or it would have been stopped ages ago.
2. If I'm in Pandemic Legion, am I responsible if one of my "renter" corps breaks the EULA? Clearly not... all I'm doing by "renting" them space is "a) Not shooting them when I see them in space" and "b) perhaps giving them docking access at my stations". If they exploit and break the EULA, that's not Pandemic legion's problem.
3. Is ratting 23/7 illegal? No... you have no life... but no, its not illegal.
4. Is ratting using a macro program to automate tasks illegal? YES. Can the landlords know for sure that their renters are using a macro program??? Most likely not 100% sure. After all, if CCP could know 100%, these macro-users would be banned already. If CCP, with access to their servers, IP tracing and such can't know 100%, then how are the landlords supposed to? So, clearly the landlord cannot be held responsible if one of their renters breaks the EULA, by using a macro or through another means.
5. Is account sharing illegal? YES
Scenario #1 One person owns 2 characters... one has wallet access in a landlord alliance, and the other is an out-of-alliance character. If Landlord character sends ISK to non-alliance character, is this illegal? NO (ISK exchanges happen all the time). Is this account sharing??? NO
Scenario #2: 2 different people own the non-alliance and the landlord character. Landlord owner logs in and sends ISK to non-alliance player. Is this illegal??? NO... for the same reasons as #1.
Scenario #3: 2 different people own the accounts, and non-alliance owner uses the other person's password to access the Landlord character and transfer the ISK. Is this illegal? YES... its account sharing and illegal by terms of the EULA.
If the Landlord alliance is not responsible for EULA violations of its renters, how can the NON-alliance person recieving the ISK be responsible???
6. Is using real money to buy ISK illegal??? Other than GTCs, YES, its illegal. (don't get me started on GTCs). So, if any of the above scenarios involved real money... they become ILLEGAL.
7. Is corp theft illegal? NO... its a shitty thing to do, but allowed within the EULA and game mechanics.
So far... the only real things that seem to be illegal are:
1. Using real money to buy ISK and 2. Logging in to someone else's account and 3. Using a Macro program
Provided Ketch did neither of these 3 things, I don't see how a ban is justified.
That being said, if he did use real money or someone else's login info, or use a macro to farm the ISK himself then the ban is justified.
Have I missed anything? |
|
Mynera Nic'Atoch
Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 17:00:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Mynera Nic''Atoch on 20/08/2008 17:02:10
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon 1. Using real money to buy ISK and 2. Logging in to someone else's account and 3. Using a Macro program
Provided Ketch did neither of these 3 things, I don't see how a ban is justified.
That being said, if he did use real money or someone else's login info, or use a macro to farm the ISK himself then the ban is justified.
Have I missed anything?
Yes .. using your 'travels' to mask account sharing in that you allow a friend (or relative) to use your accounts when you are not available is an EULA breach. Not provable, unless you get lazy and accidentally leave an impossible time/distance gap between logins on your accounts.
Maintaining plausible deniability over a prolonged period requires attention to detail.
Myn |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.20 17:07:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Henky
Originally by: Dianabolic
LOL, no, he really wasn't. We don't DO space rental any more, did you miss the memo?
Just quoting you on that bit,
Maybe ccp should take your titans away to, maybe some of that isk you reseived found its way into capital assembly arrays that build the titans . . . , maybe even in the titans
Maybe = Guilty in ccp's view of illigal isk.
So you're saying that ANYONE who has rented space should be banned?
That about the sum of it? |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 00:01:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk maybe has something to do with accessing accounts that don't belong to him and stealing isk from them ?
and that's supposed to be what clears his name ?
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Skunk |
Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 03:19:00 -
[134]
The straight fact of the matter is, CCP can not act on simple here-say or conjecture, they must act on straight and simple facts. If in this case the "victim" can not provide reasonable proof to dissolve the facts that CCP have against him then he is out of luck.
That said, apart from what CCP may have on the "victim", the very fact that he took part in any dealings with an account harboring isk as a receiver for isk farmers (renting space), speaks volumes about the situation he is. The intent or reasoning of why he put his hand in the cookie jar is irrelevant, the cookies were poisoned and the mere fact he put his hand in the jar in the first place is all that matters.
As for how much ISK exists in eve that is "washed" through or by isk farms is also irrelevant, it is a state of affairs we have all known about for a long time. As long as CCP sticks to acting on the transactions of that isk in a direct capacity to the most immediate transactions involved with the isk, we can be fairly assured the system is as impartial as possible.
When we start to see tom and larry getting banned for buying something off the market that was supplied to the market from mike who bought isk then we got a problem but that is not the case, all I have ever seen in these type of outcry threads is people who have and can be linked to isk farming within 1 or 2 hops of the isk movement process.
Daisho and the person in question got dealt a bad card but from all the facts on the table, it would appear that he sat down ready and willing to play a hand and he lost big time. |
Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 13:02:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Mia Archer Once CCP took 5 billion isk from me because I transfered it between two characters on different accounts that I am the owner of, for buying isk... true story
If you forgot to petition it, then you deserve to lose those 5 billion.
o.O
So can someone tell me exactly how much is the threshold for defensive petitioning?
If someone sends me 1 billion isk .. do i petition it?
10 billion? 1 million?
SKUNK |
Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 14:00:00 -
[136]
If CCP were serious about regulating account sharing, Sir Molle would have been permabanned long ago.
|
|
GM Guard
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 16:55:00 -
[137]
Hi everyone.
There has been a lot of speculation on this thread, some of it close to the truth, some of it not so.
I feel it is best at this point to clarify what happened, and why it happened, since the players involved have brought their version of events to the forum for public scrutiny.
The titan pilot had an alt on another account. That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
We discovered all of this during a routine investigation into an ISK selling operation that had been hacking accounts with key loggers and stealing ISK from players. We were not willing to overlook the fact that someone had just bought a Titan with ISK that came directly from account hacking ISK sellers. Blame us if you want.
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, we did actually make some efforts to compensate other alliance members for their contributions to this project and as of now those efforts are still ongoing.
I can safely speak for every EVE GM when I say that none of us enjoys a mess like this one. We know that removing a titan, even one funded in this manner, causes distress for innocent alliance members, but the presence of ISK sellers causes such an amount of problems for our players that we have to take a firm stance.
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support |
|
Farham
Titan Industries Technology Team
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:00:00 -
[138]
I guess this constitutes knowing the other side of the story and as usual, it changes things.
|
Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:01:00 -
[139]
Originally by: GM Guard Hi everyone.
There has been a lot of speculation on this thread, some of it close to the truth, some of it not so.
I feel it is best at this point to clarify what happened, and why it happened, since the players involved have brought their version of events to the forum for public scrutiny.
The titan pilot had an alt on another account. That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
We discovered all of this during a routine investigation into an ISK selling operation that had been hacking accounts with key loggers and stealing ISK from players. We were not willing to overlook the fact that someone had just bought a Titan with ISK that came directly from account hacking ISK sellers. Blame us if you want.
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, we did actually make some efforts to compensate other alliance members for their contributions to this project and as of now those efforts are still ongoing.
I can safely speak for every EVE GM when I say that none of us enjoys a mess like this one. We know that removing a titan, even one funded in this manner, causes distress for innocent alliance members, but the presence of ISK sellers causes such an amount of problems for our players that we have to take a firm stance.
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what? |
Lemonx
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:02:00 -
[140]
Originally by: GM Guard That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too? |
|
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:13:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Toolbert
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what?
I'm glad they did. |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:15:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 21/08/2008 17:16:51
Originally by: Lemonx
Originally by: GM Guard That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too?
No you dolt they obviously left them in the game so they could hack more accounts. I mean, where's the risk vs reward if your account can't be hacked right?
Of course they banned them.
EDIT: Huge thanks to GM Guard for his post, I know the GM team hates to get involved like that but it sounds like youre doing an amazing job keeping eve clean. Keep up the great work and don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. |
Spathi
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:15:00 -
[143]
"Boy your ship"
Omg, thats almost as good as "Violence my boat" and "Steal my box" |
Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:18:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: Lemonx
Originally by: GM Guard That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too?
No you dolt they obviously left them in the game so they could hack more accounts. I mean, where's the risk vs reward if your account can't be hacked right?
Of course they banned them.
Since CCP is breaking their own policy on not discussing banned accounts, I would like to see some actual proof that these isk sellers and farmers are being banned. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:18:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/08/2008 17:25:35
Originally by: Lemonx
Originally by: GM Guard That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense.
Many but not all or most? Few hundred million isk per char? Thats 150+ diffrent chars then? Were all those banned too?
I think you missed the the key point, which was
Originally by: GM Guard Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
I think that explains everything. |
Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:21:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what?
I'm glad they did.
I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things. |
Lemonx
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:26:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Lemonx on 21/08/2008 17:26:33
|
Lemonx
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:26:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Lord WarATron I think you missed the the key point
I dont care if he was guilty or not. I just feel the report from GM Guard was a bit vague and unspecific. Banning of 150+ ISK sellers might be dev blog or forum thread worthy? I dont know. |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:33:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Toolbert I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here? |
Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:37:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here?
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
who wants to be the first pubbie to get all of my stuff because i'm quitting, cya guys later!
how ****ing stupid are you? |
|
Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 17:50:00 -
[151]
Originally by: GM Guard The titan pilot had an alt on another account. That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
Thanks for clarifying. And lol at the titan pilot |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 18:06:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Toolbert
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
I wish you'd just exercise your right to remain silent. |
Sinful 1
Caldari Hot Fuzz.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 18:31:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Sinful 1 on 21/08/2008 18:33:02 This toon was autioned btw
|
Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 18:48:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
I wish you'd just exercise your right to remain silent.
I'll keep that in mind if CCP ever decides to release your personal information if they ever deem it convenient.
|
Stevens
SPECTRE Ops Utterly Harmless
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 18:52:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Darriele
Originally by: AJ Scout
Before spewing legal shit you should read the legal document you agreed to signing up for an eve account. You have NO RIGHTS to anything in the game including all characters, isk, objects and otherwise. CCP will refund any pre-paid subscription after 30 days. So if you just paid for 3 months, you will get 2 months returned.
The fact of even trying to do anything legal over a game is laughable, little lone when you have signed an EULA.
You are a little bit too out. You didn't payed attention to what i was mumbo-jumbo-ing around. Read again.
Here's a little hint for you. You can go in legal courts too if you really wish no one will stop you.
"# GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland, (HTra=sd=mur Reykjavfkur). You hereby expressly waive and agree not to raise any and all objections based on personal jurisdiction, venue and/or inconvenience of such forum and agree to the jurisdiction of the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland. "
EULAs will never hold up as a binding contract in court so you might as well just continue blindly clicking yes.
|
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:06:00 -
[156]
If Chewbacca is a Wookie...it just don't make sense.
IT DON'T MAKE SENSE! IT DON'T MAKE SENSE!
Defense rests
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
|
Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:14:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Toolbert ...if CCP ever decides to release your personal information if they ever deem it convenient.
That's totally analogous to what has happened in Guard's post and not a hysterical slippery-slope fallacy at all.
|
Zetjur Jilnou
Rapid Deployment Industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:32:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Zetjur Jilnou on 21/08/2008 19:31:49
Originally by: Toolbert I'll keep that in mind if CCP ever decides to release your personal information if they ever deem it convenient.
If he didn't want disclosure on it, perhaps he shouldn't have tried making up fairy tales on the forums. CCP has demonstrated time and time again that people that try claiming they 'got isk from a friend' or 'their friend is quitting eve because the gm's took isk from selling something on the market', will get this stuff posted in their forum thread. This is like the 5th or 6th time they've done it at least, and tbh, good on them.
|
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:41:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Toolbert I'll keep that in mind if CCP ever decides to release your personal information if they ever deem it convenient.
Dude, please nerdrage when it's valid instead.
Black Hand.
|
Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:47:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert I'll keep that in mind if CCP ever decides to release your personal information if they ever deem it convenient.
Dude, please nerdrage when it's valid instead.
Okay whatever, CCP making themselves look like hypocrits doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game anyways. I figured they would have just learned their lesson after the last few times they have done things like this and it exploded in their face causing a huge amount of drama.
|
|
R0ot
Got R0ot
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:48:00 -
[161]
Originally by: GM Guard The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
I'm not saying the isk was legit or that it wasn't legit, but come on now I think we have all heard the above line before, "our logs show nothing". I would love some day to see a page listing all banned accounts in relation to isk selling that is updated when each isk seller account is banned and maybe the amount of isk it had on its account at the time.
|
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 19:52:00 -
[162]
Originally by: R0ot
Originally by: GM Guard The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
I'm not saying the isk was legit or that it wasn't legit, but come on now I think we have all heard the above line before, "our logs show nothing". I would love some day to see a page listing all banned accounts in relation to isk selling that is updated when each isk seller account is banned and maybe the amount of isk it had on its account at the time.
Perhaps the paper trail was a bit easier to trace with so many transfers going from so many alt-accounts to one single account?
Black Hand.
|
Sgt Napalm
Synergy Evolved
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 20:51:00 -
[163]
So you ban a pilot who most likely had no clue that the ISK came from a 'hacked accounts'. Yet the people doing the hacking most likely already have new accounts and are back to farming, hacking, etc... Then you ask him for proof that this came from rent??? How is he suppose to provide that evidence, a receipt?
I guess that fixed the problem.
Post with your main, this smells of a inside job.
|
Kyguard
Game-Over The Requiem
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 20:53:00 -
[164]
Well I'm convinced. Thanks for that explanation GM Guard. -
|
Dionisius
Gallente Sincarnate Holding
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 21:17:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Sgt Napalm So you ban a pilot who most likely had no clue that the ISK came from a 'hacked accounts'. Yet the people doing the hacking most likely already have new accounts and are back to farming, hacking, etc... Then you ask him for proof that this came from rent??? How is he suppose to provide that evidence, a receipt?
I guess that fixed the problem.
Post with your main, this smells of a inside job.
Did you read the whole explanation the GM provided? The isk came from isk sellers, hacked accounts or not its still illegal to buy isk.
And besides this whole mess just reinforces the point that buying isk just causes more harm to the playerbase than good.
The guy is banned the titan is removed and CCP offered compensation to the people that contributed within game mechanics to the thing.
Only proof CCP needs is the logs and the logs don't lie as simple as that. _____________________________________
|
Darth Sith
Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 22:15:00 -
[166]
Originally by: GM Guard Hi everyone.
We discovered all of this during a routine investigation into an ISK selling operation that had been hacking accounts with key loggers and stealing ISK from players. We were not willing to overlook the fact that someone had just bought a Titan with ISK that came directly from account hacking ISK sellers. Blame us if you want.
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, we did actually make some efforts to compensate other alliance members for their contributions to this project and as of now those efforts are still ongoing.
I can safely speak for every EVE GM when I say that none of us enjoys a mess like this one. We know that removing a titan, even one funded in this manner, causes distress for innocent alliance members, but the presence of ISK sellers causes such an amount of problems for our players that we have to take a firm stance.
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support
First, thakyou to GM guard for the response.
Secondly, this is completely in line with the information I posted in my official alliance post on the COAD forums after this story came out.
I originally did not get into detail of the petition in place on the matter due to standing CCP rules regarding thier discussion, however since Guard has posted it here, I should post our side of it. But i did post that efforts were underway for restitution and i admit to not bothering to read all the crap in this thread anymore.
In regards to the petition, I would like to say that GM Guard has been going out of his way to work with me personally though this mess and rumours of all GM's being bung holes aren't true. He has treated the situation with professionalism and is being thorough. I can confirm that CCP has made effort to split the "questionable isk" from the isk i personally funded into the titan and make restitution on my portion based on the fact that I have been able to trace the legit origin of all monies I contributed to the project. That said, there is some remaining debate on some other items so the petition remains open and active.
It is important to point out that this debate on the forums has decayed to a DAISHO conversation. All that is in question is the isk aquisition actions of one of our members and it is important that I point out that the alliance in general is not implicated in this at all. I ask that you keep this in mind and not trash the work that the general alliance population has done to remain a viable pvp entity in EVE.
We have said from day one that isk was skimmed from an isk farming corp .. and transfered in small amounts covertly .. prob is we have no way of proving he did not pay for it and are therefore guilty by association. I admit that our titan pilot was livid when the ship dissapeard and could have co-operated better with CCP .. all i know is that I am working the proper channels to try and work through this in a proper and supported manner. Some people use alt spies to steal bpo's , some ships, he stole isk from farmers .. all depends on how you want to look at it and weigh it out.
And now I turn this back to the trolls that want to twist this out of context for another 7 pages of incorrect garbage :)
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.21 23:38:00 -
[167]
The truth at last.
KIA EVE Home
KIA in game Public Channel "KIA"
KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Imperius Blackheart |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 00:16:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Toolbert
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here?
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
who wants to be the first pubbie to get all of my stuff because i'm quitting, cya guys later!
how ****ing stupid are you?
when i grow up can i be a toolbox like you?
|
Dahak2150
Chaos Monkeys
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 03:45:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what?
I'm glad they did.
Likewise. Thank you CCP.
|
Crunchip
hirr Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 03:58:00 -
[170]
If this Titan Pilot would have said the truth there would be nothing to complain about the GM-Team.
Would you prefer to live in EVE having in mind that CCP "steals" your stuff ?
I think at this point GM Guard did the right thing to inform everyone about it. Else blatant rumors would have disturbed the whole case blaming CCP for whatever.
Still sad that people buy titans with real money.. either from ISK Sellers or GTC's :(
|
|
Gojyu
Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 06:43:00 -
[171]
Quote: We have said from day one that isk was skimmed from an isk farming corp .. and transfered in small amounts covertly .. prob is we have no way of proving he did not pay for it and are therefore guilty by association.
The only problem with this, darth sith, is this:
Quote: That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
You claim that the isk was skimmed from an isk farming corp, however, as GM Guard stated, the isk was sent from multiple accounts belonging to known isk sellers. How, if I may be so bold, were you able to infiltrate a corp of chinese farmers and have them send one character isk, in small payments, with multiple accounts, coincidentally designed to look exactly like bought isk, without the farmer corp knowing about it?
|
Isaac Orion
Dreamscape Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 07:23:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Gojyu
You claim that the isk was skimmed from an isk farming corp, however, as GM Guard stated, the isk was sent from multiple accounts belonging to known isk sellers. How, if I may be so bold, were you able to infiltrate a corp of chinese farmers and have them send one character isk, in small payments, with multiple accounts, coincidentally designed to look exactly like bought isk, without the farmer corp knowing about it?
Now put all the details together. They were known isk sellers and also farmed isk on the side. The money skimmed was the income from the ratters which was put into a wallet. That wallet was skimmed from by another character who in turn gave the money to the titan pilot. Thus, as Darth Sith stated, guilty by association. No RL money used by the titan pilot. Just good old-fashioned skimming from isk-sellers who were making their isk by ratting. --------------------------------------
|
Gojyu
Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 07:50:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Gojyu on 22/08/2008 07:50:45
Originally by: Isaac Orion
Originally by: Gojyu
You claim that the isk was skimmed from an isk farming corp, however, as GM Guard stated, the isk was sent from multiple accounts belonging to known isk sellers. How, if I may be so bold, were you able to infiltrate a corp of chinese farmers and have them send one character isk, in small payments, with multiple accounts, coincidentally designed to look exactly like bought isk, without the farmer corp knowing about it?
Now put all the details together. They were known isk sellers and also farmed isk on the side. The money skimmed was the income from the ratters which was put into a wallet. That wallet was skimmed from by another character who in turn gave the money to the titan pilot. Thus, as Darth Sith stated, guilty by association. No RL money used by the titan pilot. Just good old-fashioned skimming from isk-sellers who were making their isk by ratting.
The thing is, that's just strange for a number of reasons. Firstly, isk sellers don't send isk on their farming accounts, they use alt accounts to launder the gold/isk/credits whathaveyou, they're less traceable that way. The gm specifically said it came from known isk sellers, which would be entirely separate from the farming account, even the farming corp. Another strange point is this:
Quote:
That wallet was skimmed from by another character who in turn gave the money to the titan pilot.
I take it to mean that you're saying the alt mentioned by the gm was the other character. Why then, if this was the case, did the other character have donations from the isk farmers themselves? if he was skimming from a corp wallet, it wouldn't have been from individual accounts, it also wouldn't have random reasons for the donations. Alternatively, you might be arguing that the tax paid by the farmers itself was held by this character, and that the skimming was done from this character's wallet to the titan pilot. This is confusing as well, since if the farmers were from the same corp, the most logical way to handle it would be for the corp wallet to be used to pay the tax, however you're saying that each individual farmer paid x amount at a set time? Just seems like a questionable way of doing things
|
Purgatori
Minmatar Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 07:53:00 -
[174]
Geez you guys go take a step back and think what your typing!!
Ok so before the GM posted..It was.. Down with CCP and tell us what happend! we demand it!! yarr !! So after a few threads of chest beating a GM speaks out.. Now the chest beating is..OMG he broke the rules that we wanted him to! Down with CCP again!! yarr!!
Thank you CCP for intertacting with your playerbase and keeping us updated on what really happend.. Least they had the balls to post. And with what the GM;s found i would of banned him my self if i was a GM.
Think before you post...
|
Isaac Orion
Dreamscape Daisho Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 08:16:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Gojyu
The thing is, that's just strange for a number of reasons. Firstly, isk sellers don't send isk on their farming accounts, they use alt accounts to launder the gold/isk/credits whathaveyou, they're less traceable that way. The gm specifically said it came from known isk sellers, which would be entirely separate from the farming account, even the farming corp. Another strange point is this:
I take it to mean that you're saying the alt mentioned by the gm was the other character. Why then, if this was the case, did the other character have donations from the isk farmers themselves? if he was skimming from a corp wallet, it wouldn't have been from individual accounts, it also wouldn't have random reasons for the donations. Alternatively, you might be arguing that the tax paid by the farmers itself was held by this character, and that the skimming was done from this character's wallet to the titan pilot. This is confusing as well, since if the farmers were from the same corp, the most logical way to handle it would be for the corp wallet to be used to pay the tax, however you're saying that each individual farmer paid x amount at a set time? Just seems like a questionable way of doing things
Some valid questions there.
Let me try and put the entire picture together and hopefully this will clear it up and end this speculation for now.
A ratting corp (multiple characters depositing to the same corp wallet) gets access from an alliance to rat in their space. In return, the alliance gets a percentage of that money as a collateral for letting the ratters in the space (aka, tax). In order for that to happen, said alliance needs an alt in the ratting corp to take said tax from the corp wallet. That character took some of the money and gave it to the mentioned titan pilot (not the actual titan pilot, who is an alt of course) through "donations with random reasons". That ends that story. No harm in that right? Just good old fashioned stealing from some isk farmers.
Here's the kicker. The same ratting corp sells that isk they rat for RL money (most likely through alts). CCP finds out about the isk selling. They do a trace to find the source. Lo and behold, they find that the same isk was taken from the isk farming corp and eventually transferred to said titan pilot. Thus, the titan pilot is guilty by association with the isk used by the isk farming corp to eventually sell for RL money. Does that put it in perspective now?
If it does or not, I rest my case until everything is resolved. This is from what I gathered by all these posts. If I'm mistaken, I withdraw my argument. No sense in really continuing the discussion here. --------------------------------------
|
Huan Hunglong
Intensive CareBearz
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 09:29:00 -
[176]
Originally by: GM Guard Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that.
So if you cannot disprove it, how can you go about assuming it wasnt the case?
Originally by: Toolbert
I thought it was CCPs policy to not discuss this sort of thing no matter what?
CCP's policy differs depending on who its being enforced apon.
|
Kian Jorry
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 09:33:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Isaac Orion
(...) said alliance needs an alt in the ratting corp to take said tax from the corp wallet (...)
Having an account associated with an isk farming corp in which you have corp wallet roles is a Good Idea, right?
But if
Originally by: Isaac Orion
(...) That ends that story. No harm in that right? Just good old fashioned stealing from some isk farmers. (...)
then why
Originally by: GM Guard
(...) He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs. (...)
|
Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:25:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Toolbert
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here?
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
who wants to be the first pubbie to get all of my stuff because i'm quitting, cya guys later!
how ****ing stupid are you?
Put up, shut up, or do something about it. Either way, stop whining about your perceived unfairness of a internet spaceships game, your SA masters would be dissapointed by your n00bishness.
Also, after 6 pages, when we find the whole story, i'd like to see the ppl that still stand by dino's credibility, including some of the alliance leaders that posted - warned you about looking like a fool kiaeddz.
|
LadyScarlet
Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 15:40:00 -
[179]
so if Dashio was indeed taking isk from isk sellers ( which is what the gm is pointing out )
can we get a list of those names/and corporations of people who was selling the isk one just for general record and to to verify the corp has been shut down and no one is doing any future business with them ?
|
Ketch Kan
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 16:21:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Ketch Kan on 22/08/2008 16:23:34 Thank you GM Guard for your post
To the rest of you à.. 1:Yes I was taking isk from people I knew to be isk farmers 2:No I have never hacked an account nor did I know anything about account hacking till GuardÆs post 3:My alliance had no knowledge of any of my transactions (why would I tell them I wasnÆt proud of it ) 4: I was excepting isk for blue standings for over a year even when I didnÆt have the ability to set standings in that alliance anymore 5: as Guard pointed out I got isk in small amounts with some stupid description. That was a recent development most the early transfers did not go this way. 6: the last convo with the farmers was when they found out thay didnÆt have blue standings with anyone in the area they ratted and man they didnÆt like me. 7: the toon that received the isk was deleted to make room for another toon and because it couldnÆt get isk from very mad farmers any more.
If in fact the isk I received came from Hacked accounts then the titan should be removed, then reimburse any one who lost isk to a hack (farmers I can deal with, hackers should be shot on site ) As far as a perma ban on the pilot thatÆs up to CCP not the forums.
I will be putting my toons up on the forums as a lottery pick a number if you pick the right one you get the toon associated with that number I will ask CCPÆs help in a way to insure you cant just use alts on the same account to get more numbers .
I am quitting EVE and if you guys want to keep playing then YES YOU CAN HAVE MY STUFF but only as fare as I can make it for every one.
|
|
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:03:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 22/08/2008 17:07:23
Originally by: Ketch Kan Edited by: Ketch Kan on 22/08/2008 16:23:34 Thank you GM Guard for your post
To the rest of you à.. 1:Yes I was taking isk from people I knew to be isk farmers 2:No I have never hacked an account nor did I know anything about account hacking till GuardÆs post 3:My alliance had no knowledge of any of my transactions (why would I tell them I wasnÆt proud of it ) 4: I was excepting isk for blue standings for over a year even when I didnÆt have the ability to set standings in that alliance anymore 5: as Guard pointed out I got isk in small amounts with some stupid description. That was a recent development most the early transfers did not go this way. 6: the last convo with the farmers was when they found out thay didnÆt have blue standings with anyone in the area they ratted and man they didnÆt like me. 7: the toon that received the isk was deleted to make room for another toon and because it couldnÆt get isk from very mad farmers any more.
If in fact the isk I received came from Hacked accounts then the titan should be removed, then reimburse any one who lost isk to a hack (farmers I can deal with, hackers should be shot on site ) As far as a perma ban on the pilot thatÆs up to CCP not the forums.
I will be putting my toons up on the forums as a lottery pick a number if you pick the right one you get the toon associated with that number I will ask CCPÆs help in a way to insure you cant just use alts on the same account to get more numbers .
I am quitting EVE and if you guys want to keep playing then YES YOU CAN HAVE MY STUFF but only as fare as I can make it for every one.
Would it not be a better idea to name and shame the isk sellers or perhaps better still, name and shame which alliances were sheltering them? --
Billion Isk Mission |
Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 17:44:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Would it not be a better idea to name and shame the isk sellers or perhaps better still, name and shame which alliances were sheltering them?
Dangerous game that, I am sure all alliances have come into contact with and or rented space to isk sellers.
|
Toolbert
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:04:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 22/08/2008 15:37:18
Originally by: Toolbert
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Toolbert I'm not, shows how little integrity they have. Its bad enough CCP only keeps the isk farmers and sellers around until they make a real big mess of things.
So if you dislike them so much, why are you still here?
hurrrrrr clearly because I dont agree with one thing I think this game is horrible
who wants to be the first pubbie to get all of my stuff because i'm quitting, cya guys later!
how ****ing stupid are you?
Put up, shut up, or do something about it. Either way, stop whining about your perceived unfairness of a internet spaceships game, your SA masters would be dissapointed by your n00bishness.
Also, after 6 pages, when we find the whole story, i'd like to see the ppl that still stand by dino's credibility, including some of the alliance leaders that posted - warned you about looking like a fool kiaeddz.
So ... Ketch, can i have your stuff before you /wrists on your accounts ?
Okay since fairness and serious business mean nothing, I hope CCP stops banning ISK farmers and buyers. No need to do it since its just an internet spaceship game. Who cares?
|
Swirlar
Miners in Black
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 19:10:00 -
[184]
They're ****ed because without the titan, they can't mega-kill pods in BWF on the OIJ gate.
|
Murtala
Mushin Market
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:16:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Ketch Kan YES YOU CAN HAVE MY STUFF but only
can i have your stuff
|
insolace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 20:42:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Isaac Orion A ratting corp (multiple characters depositing to the same corp wallet) gets access from an alliance to rat in their space. In return, the alliance gets a percentage of that money as a collateral for letting the ratters in the space (aka, tax). In order for that to happen, said alliance needs an alt in the ratting corp to take said tax from the corp wallet. That character took some of the money and gave it to the mentioned titan pilot (not the actual titan pilot, who is an alt of course) through "donations with random reasons". That ends that story. No harm in that right? Just good old fashioned stealing from some isk farmers.
This totally makes sense except for:
Originally by: GM Guard All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
Why was the alt deleted after the 45b isk was transfered to the titan pilot?
Also the going rate for ratting rights in a decent constellation is a few billion isk a month, right? If the 45b was really from ratting taxes then surely it would have taken many months to accumulate that sum? Because if it only took a few days or weeks and the isk was transfered from isk sellers, then how can you expect us to believe that it wasn't purchased?
|
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2008.08.22 21:33:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Ketch Kan
I will be putting my toons up on the forums as a lottery pick a number if you pick the right one you get the toon associated with that number
#4 for me.
Black Hand.
|
cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 00:26:00 -
[188]
You will be missed ketch.
Ive just had the reality of the situation explained to me and its actually VERY ironic and as per my guess u aint done a thing wrong. CCP seem to place the burden of proof on you when it should be on them, shame they dont follow the same legal principles as ALL of europe, and most of the US.
Anyways Hit me up if u ever fancy joining again n ill chuck u a few hundred mill. Fly safe mate.
|
Gorfob
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 00:42:00 -
[189]
|
patteSatan
Celtic industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 03:03:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Mjabi .. Will I now get my 1st forum warning?
NOOB! Real men has dozen of those under their belts.
Real men doesent get any warnings.
/salutes Kia
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
404 - Sense of humour not found. <===hUssmann VETO. made that
|
|
halp me
THE INTERNET.
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 03:17:00 -
[191]
so wait this is the first lefit titan kill for ccp?
grats on the kill ccp
|
patteSatan
Celtic industries
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 03:20:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 18/08/2008 09:54:42 They should just ban whole alliances if they are knowingly harboring isk farmers, and profiting from it.
They cant ban bob, they are selling the game because bob is here again.(how they got back will be dubious)
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
404 - Sense of humour not found. <===hUssmann VETO. made that
|
Tmarte
Caldari Explora Empire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 15:02:00 -
[193]
Ok so lets get something straight. Isk farming is legal. Isk selling for RL money is illegal.
If an alliance harbors isk farmers, whether it's renting or skimming money, they are harboring a legal entity. Renting out space is legal. Getting paid isk to have these people is legal. I doubt that when an alliance rents out space to a corp to farm isk, that they do a background check on everybody to see if their legit. No they just say give us XXXmil isk per week/day and you can mine/rat all you want in these systems. I doubt highly they would know if the renting corp was selling/hacking doing whatever legal shit they were doing on the side. Nor would the alliance care to know. They just want their XXXmil per week/day rent.
Now the alliance collecting that rent money is collecting it legally. They are entitled to that money since it is their space being rented out. How the people they are renting the space out to got the money is of no relevance to the situation. The people hacking/selling isk should be banned. The alliance renting space should be able to keep the money since they earned it legally. Just because the renters are isk sellers doesn't mean the alliance should be punished. They had no way of knowing that the isk farmers were doing something shady on the side. The alliance received the funds in a legal manner.
If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
Of course, everything I explained is fine, but the Titan pilot seemed to beat around the bush and from GM Guards post, seemed pretty shady. If the titan pilot would have come out and said, we rented out space, i got that money by fair game mechanics, and I asked the renters to please note it was for protection yadda yadda, then fine. Maybe the people were chinese and can't type in english very well? Benefit of the doubt, sure. But the titan pilot should have come out and said he was renting and stealing per game mechanics, not beat around the bush.
|
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 16:12:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Tmarte If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
There is no point becoming a "internet lawer" if you do not bother reading what the situation is. If the dealership knows the money is not legal, then he goes to jail along with the theif. Thats the problem with internet lawers - they think "pub knowledge" is the real law.
Nobody is talking about where the accused did not know if someone is a isk farmer. The problem is when people deal with known isk farmers. See the difference?
The guy got his titan ..... nerfed because he knowingly got involved and was happy to deal with isk farmers. Heck, he still refuses to name and shame those involved in harbouring them, and that in itself is classed as 'obstruction'.
If someone were to deal with a known isk farmer groups such as beatlrice etc, then they are doing themselves no favors. --
Billion Isk Mission |
sliver 0xD
exiles. The Kadeshi
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 18:03:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Tmarte If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
There is no point becoming a "internet lawer" if you do not bother reading what the situation is. If the dealership knows the money is not legal, then he goes to jail along with the theif. Thats the problem with internet lawers - they think "pub knowledge" is the real law.
Nobody is talking about where the accused did not know if someone is a isk farmer. The problem is when people deal with known isk farmers. See the difference?
The guy got his titan ..... nerfed because he knowingly got involved and was happy to deal with isk farmers. Heck, he still refuses to name and shame those involved in harbouring them, and that in itself is classed as 'obstruction'.
If someone were to deal with a known isk farmer groups such as beatlrice etc, then they are doing themselves no favors.
i ask daily for farmers to pay me. should i be banned ?
i dont think this was done right. in holland when someone sells you a stolen item the item is yours. even tho its stolen they can not take it and give it to the original owner becouse you bought it.
and no mather what you say ccp wont care. they can and will ban whatever they want. no reason needed.
i wonder why ketch is still active. if ccp knew 100% sure that ketch was cheating they would have banned him compleetly.
--- Somebody needs a hug! |
Old Winter
Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 18:07:00 -
[196]
Originally by: GM Guard
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support
Is there a published list somewhere we can check so as to avoid dealing with isk sellers. I am sure the playerbase would appreciate it. ---------------- There are no bugs just locked threads |
Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 19:10:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 23/08/2008 19:11:17
Originally by: cheese monkey You will be missed ketch.
Ive just had the reality of the situation explained to me and its actually VERY ironic and as per my guess u aint done a thing wrong. CCP seem to place the burden of proof on you when it should be on them, shame they dont follow the same legal principles as ALL of europe, and most of the US.
Anyways Hit me up if u ever fancy joining again n ill chuck u a few hundred mill. Fly safe mate.
You are playing an MMO, rules are in the EULA and TOS. Legal principles ? You are hanging on very thin threads dude.
Your good friend crossed the line, he got spanked for it and now he's emo-rage-quitting. Good riddance. :) This is not a corp made for CAOD posting, mods get your facts straight first ffs.
|
cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 19:26:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Setana Manoro Edited by: Setana Manoro on 23/08/2008 19:11:17
Originally by: cheese monkey You will be missed ketch.
Ive just had the reality of the situation explained to me and its actually VERY ironic and as per my guess u aint done a thing wrong. CCP seem to place the burden of proof on you when it should be on them, shame they dont follow the same legal principles as ALL of europe, and most of the US.
Anyways Hit me up if u ever fancy joining again n ill chuck u a few hundred mill. Fly safe mate.
You are playing an MMO, rules are in the EULA and TOS. Legal principles ? You are hanging on very thin threads dude.
Your good friend crossed the line, he got spanked for it and now he's emo-rage-quitting. Good riddance. :)
Ketch is my friend. I doubt you've met him. He is a really nice guy and i wish him well, not good riddance to me.
My point was that if your going to form a EULA its best to base it on some pretty solid legal principles. CCP can override the EULA whenever they want, thats the whole point of saying all of this is their property. Its a bit of a joke, but i really dont wana discuss it, i just wana encourage my mate to come back to the game sometime for a little fun.
|
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 19:56:00 -
[199]
Originally by: cheese monkey My point was that if your going to form a EULA its best to base it on some pretty solid legal principles. CCP can override the EULA whenever they want, thats the whole point of saying all of this is their property. Its a bit of a joke, but i really dont wana discuss it, i just wana encourage my mate to come back to the game sometime for a little fun.
RL laws are not baised on princibles for the majority of law. Laws never were made to catch criminals, they were only made to stop joe public from getting into difficult situations. Criminals do not respect the law obviously, so thats why RL laws fail to deter people - after all, the criminal thinks he is going to get away with it!
CCP's EULA is more princible baised. So if you find loopholes etc, CCC can still have the right to do whatever they want. In this case, Ketch knowingly was happy to do business with isk sellers it appears, and appears to be refusing to disclose who the 'big man' is.
So expectations of non-princible baised RL laws that were designed to control society vs CCP's princible baised EULA that are there to catch Isk sellers is why you are confused.
Either way, Ketch is not innocent at all. Far from it. If he was to name and shame, then that would be a different story. Till he does that, then all you are doing is supporting someone who harbours isk farmers. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 20:06:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Cippalippus Primus on 23/08/2008 20:06:47
Originally by: Lord WarATron
RL laws are not baised on princibles for the majority of law. Laws never were made to catch criminals, they were only made to stop joe public from getting into difficult situations. Criminals do not respect the law obviously, so thats why RL laws fail to deter people - after all, the criminal thinks he is going to get away with it!
You are wrong, the first laws recorded in the history of humanity regulated, in order, marriage, commerce, and criminal behaviour (murder, thieving, and such). Only with the advent of a modern legislation the legal systems went from a coercitive ideal to a regulative (normative) ideal. -clp
|
|
cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 20:17:00 -
[201]
Innocent untill proven guilty mate (that is in the civilized world, not talking about history)
(Skimming/Scamming ain't against the rules no matter who you do it to) CCP have put an argument against Ketch, however have made it his problem to try and prove them wrong. CCP should have the burden of proof if they want to have legitimacy behind their arguments.
Lord WarAtron i see where your coming from, and yes the EULA is there because CCP need the flexibility in order to maintain normality within the game, judge expolits and such... However im sure you can respect a friend saluting another friend and wanting for him to stay in the game... right?!
peace.x
|
Ketch Kan
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2008.08.23 23:14:00 -
[202]
no i will not name the alliance and I don't think you want me to " people who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones "
|
RainbowTinks
ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 01:05:00 -
[203]
Sorry to see you leaving the game Ketch You will be greatly missed
Now go and enjoy some real space..
|
Tmarte
Caldari Explora Empire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 05:26:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Tmarte If you rob $300,000 from a bank then go buy a lamborghini, the government isn't going to go to the dealership and demand the 300,000 back are they? Hell no they can't do that. They car was bought legally, and with cash. The dealer would have no way of knowing where the money came from, nor do they care. If you stole 5 bucks from a kid and went to McDonalds and bought a sandwich, the parents are going to demand the money back from the restuarant are they? No they can't because it was bought legally, they need to demand the money back from the person who stole the 5 bucks.
In a nutshell, the alliance rented out space, received their payment. Their involvment ends here. Just because the isk sellers got the money illegally doesn't mean the alliance get's docked/punished for it. CCP should punish only the isk sellers, either by negating their wallets or outright banning the accounts. Punishing an alliance when there's no way they would know the shady side of the isk farmer is unnecessary.
There is no point becoming a "internet lawer" if you do not bother reading what the situation is. If the dealership knows the money is not legal, then he goes to jail along with the theif. Thats the problem with internet lawers - they think "pub knowledge" is the real law.
Nobody is talking about where the accused did not know if someone is a isk farmer. The problem is when people deal with known isk farmers. See the difference?
The guy got his titan ..... nerfed because he knowingly got involved and was happy to deal with isk farmers. Heck, he still refuses to name and shame those involved in harbouring them, and that in itself is classed as 'obstruction'.
If someone were to deal with a known isk farmer groups such as beatlrice etc, then they are doing themselves no favors.
They don't teach you reading comprehension in BoB do they? I even clearly defined the difference between isk farmer and isk seller.
Again reread my ENTIRE post before flapping your gums.
And you make no sense. I thought I made it clear that the dealership DOESN'T know the money is illegal. Quit making things up. ISK Farmer - Plays 23/7 to line his/her wallet with isk ISK Seller - Plays 23/7 to line wallet with isk but then sells it for RL money
And then you missed where I said, everythign would be dandy, but the titan pilot decided to act shady towards ccp, that's a different issue altogether. Learn the difference between hypothetical situations and a real one.
|
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 07:21:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Ketch Kan no i will not name the alliance and I don't think you want me to " people who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones "
I'm quite interested actually, so yes, please name and shame! Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
|
Frug
Repo Industries R.E.P.O.
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 07:58:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Ketch Kan no i will not name the alliance and I don't think you want me to " people who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones "
I'm quite interested actually, so yes, please name and shame!
It's Tanis. Tanis are hiding macroers. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Ralania Kerin
Minmatar z3r0 Gravity
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 08:42:00 -
[207]
Originally by: GM Guard GM Guard says a lot of stuff
Ok, this story is over it looks like. I thought that *nobody* would be as stupid as was claimed, but alas I am wrong often.
Ralania Kerin
|
Christopher Multsanti
Darwin With Attitude Systematic-Chaos
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 11:30:00 -
[208]
After reading GM Gaurds and Ketchas posts again I am now a bit confused.
CCP have said this money came from hacked accounts not from isk farming, so these people involved should not still be playing the game. They were account hackers not isk farmers.
Once the accounts were hacked and isk stolen that isk was then sold, and by what Gaurd said, it looks to them like Ketcha bought the isk.
Even if he didn't buy the isk, CCP are saying that the isk came from hacked accounts and banned him and removed the titan.
So there should be no alliance harbouring these people because they are account hackers and should be banned. End of.
|
K'Bar
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 16:22:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Mjabi Edited by: Mjabi on 18/08/2008 10:46:35
Originally by: maarud From the sounds of things, someone was accessing an account that wasn't theirs and made alot of ISK from it. It also sounds like the titan was partly funded from this ISK.
Is that correct?
Originally by: maarud No, it was stolen from someone's account, which goes under hacking, not corp theft.
Difference
Again afaik, the account was theirs to access. No hacking etc took place, just plain theft from corp, and that stolen isk passed to Ketch.
Dude ssshhhh. Read the rules and then read what you said. Then maybe, just maybe
|
TOTALHELLDEATH
Caldari Stellar Convertors
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 16:31:00 -
[210]
Originally by: GM Guard Hi everyone.
There has been a lot of speculation on this thread, some of it close to the truth, some of it not so.
I feel it is best at this point to clarify what happened, and why it happened, since the players involved have brought their version of events to the forum for public scrutiny.
The titan pilot had an alt on another account. That alt received 45 billion ISK - DIRECTLY - from many assorted ISK selling accounts. I am referring to those cut up streams of ISK donations, each totaling a few hundred million, with explanations that make very little sense. "Thx for your protection"..."Boy your ship"(sic)...etc.
All of this ISK was later transferred to the titan pilot directly by his alt and shortly thereafter the alt was deleted. The 45 billion ISK was used to fund the larger part of the titan that we later decided to remove from the game.
We discovered all of this during a routine investigation into an ISK selling operation that had been hacking accounts with key loggers and stealing ISK from players. We were not willing to overlook the fact that someone had just bought a Titan with ISK that came directly from account hacking ISK sellers. Blame us if you want.
Whether the ISK was "skimmed" off the top of some rent deal has yet to be proven and nothing we have seen so far points to that. We actually only heard that explanation after our lengthy talks with the titan pilot came to an end. He had every opportunity to explain the deal to us if indeed it is real, but chose not to for some reason. The explanations we got instead were insubstantial and not consistent with our logs.
Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, we did actually make some efforts to compensate other alliance members for their contributions to this project and as of now those efforts are still ongoing.
I can safely speak for every EVE GM when I say that none of us enjoys a mess like this one. We know that removing a titan, even one funded in this manner, causes distress for innocent alliance members, but the presence of ISK sellers causes such an amount of problems for our players that we have to take a firm stance.
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support
can the CSM pls review the server logs? i personaly dont believe that the isk came from hacked accounts
|
|
mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 17:19:00 -
[211]
crap like this happening is why i petition every time i receive a suspicious gift of isk or anything like that. you can receive dirty money and not get banned, so long as you turn yourself in before the GM finds about it himself. its saved me from a certain ban already.
the system really needs to be reworked because it encourages smart players to petition every thing and swamp the GMs with work.
that said, if you have large amounts of isk going through your account coming from other people, PETITION A GM FOR APPROVAL!!! then they have to investigate and give you a yes or no and you will then know with 100% certainty what will happen with your money. if you take the initiative, the worst that happens is the transactions are reversed. if you don't, the worst that happens is you get permanently banned.
|
MynChu NicAtoch
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 17:44:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Ketch Kan no i will not name the alliance and I don't think you want me to " people who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones "
Actually, Katch, we do want you to, as there is a vague suspicion that you are bullshitting us. There isn't a single person in this thread who doesn't want to know.
|
Shigsy
The Golden Goat
|
Posted - 2008.08.24 18:28:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Old Winter
Originally by: GM Guard
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
Best Regards, Lead GM Guard EVE Online Customer Support
Is there a published list somewhere we can check so as to avoid dealing with isk sellers. I am sure the playerbase would appreciate it.
Hahaha yea, I just realised how stupid that quote was.
So should we just stop all business in case someone sells isk? Damn thats really stupid.
|
cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.25 14:05:00 -
[214]
Edited by: cheese monkey on 25/08/2008 14:06:14
|
Smokie McLottapot
Caldari Keepers Of The Gate
|
Posted - 2008.08.25 15:00:00 -
[215]
Nice Job CCP. Now go ban the 1000's of macro haulers in INGUNN.
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.27 00:34:00 -
[216]
Come on, it's not like hidden info that BOB (and MC back when they were friends) were harbouring farmers.
------------ We didn't want that boot.ini anyway |
NinjaStyle
Caldari Astrodynamic Innovations
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:10:00 -
[217]
CCP has taken this too far. it's Fanatical the way they've Punished somebody who used Aproved in game functions.
I do agree they should allmost Kill isk farmers on sight but being objective about it is one thing being Fanatical about it will harm more than do good along the way.
Fanatical ... That's what Terrorists are.. The Ends does NOT justify the Means!
This only becomes a Fanatical decision becaus all the Control is CCP's it's not like we Players have any Real means of defending out selves against being involved with Isk farmers.. the Isk farmers themselves could just start sending random people Isk and acording too what happend here CCP would have too ban their chars.
I know that's going way too far but issen't that whats happening allready? Taking things too far along the "Rightous" line of events.. I simply hope I've been Fanatical enught about my post for it too reflects the action I see have been made. |
NinjaStyle
Caldari Astrodynamic Innovations
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:20:00 -
[218]
Originally by: GM Guard
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
How are we surposed too Identify Isk sellers? If somebody gets into a Situation like this again how Is he / she surposed too know that the money they aquire from Allowing entry into their Space is Isk farmers or just regular players?
sure it's easy enught too identify a "I sell you Isk for Cash" but if thoese farmers use 0.0 rented space how is that part of the money gathering not just a "regular" in game function? Sure they attempt too sell the rest of the Isk they make off too players who don't know any better but That dossen't realy make the Regular game function users guilty. |
mr darkhelmet
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 14:23:00 -
[219]
Originally by: NinjaStyle
Originally by: GM Guard
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
How are we surposed too Identify Isk sellers? If somebody gets into a Situation like this again how Is he / she surposed too know that the money they aquire from Allowing entry into their Space is Isk farmers or just regular players?
sure it's easy enught too identify a "I sell you Isk for Cash" but if thoese farmers use 0.0 rented space how is that part of the money gathering not just a "regular" in game function? Sure they attempt too sell the rest of the Isk they make off too players who don't know any better but That dossen't realy make the Regular game function users guilty.
Well the guy himself claim he know they are Isk sellers so i fail to see your point.
|
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:15:00 -
[220]
Originally by: NinjaStyle
Originally by: GM Guard
The best way to avoid problems of this nature is to refrain from engaging in any sort of business with ISK sellers.
How are we surposed too Identify Isk sellers? If somebody gets into a Situation like this again how Is he / she surposed too know that the money they aquire from Allowing entry into their Space is Isk farmers or just regular players?
sure it's easy enught too identify a "I sell you Isk for Cash" but if thoese farmers use 0.0 rented space how is that part of the money gathering not just a "regular" in game function? Sure they attempt too sell the rest of the Isk they make off too players who don't know any better but That dossen't realy make the Regular game function users guilty.
Probebly because the guy admited he knew they were isk sellers and also perhaps because he refuses to name and shame who was harbouring the isk sellers/account hackers. --
Billion Isk Mission |
|
Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 16:25:00 -
[221]
This way of investigation of players could take a nasty turn.
Consider this. What happens if someone out for revenge pays isk sellers to transfer money to someone.
Player A gets ****ed at player B. Player A pays ISKseller C to send isk to player B then petitions player B for suspicion of buying ISK.
GM investigates and find the isk from a known iskseller and gives player B a warning.
Rince and repeat. Player A can through alts or alt accounts keep petitioning after asking isk sellers to send isk to player B.
EVE PIRATE
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 17:02:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Come on, it's not like hidden info that BOB (and MC back when they were friends) were harbouring farmers.
Come on, it's not like hidden info that Reckless Corsairs are isk farmers.
See how that works?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Kyguard
Game-Over
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 17:24:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Ander This way of investigation of players could take a nasty turn.
Consider this. What happens if someone out for revenge pays isk sellers to transfer money to someone.
Player A gets ****ed at player B. Player A pays ISKseller C to send isk to player B then petitions player B for suspicion of buying ISK.
GM investigates and find the isk from a known iskseller and gives player B a warning.
Rince and repeat. Player A can through alts or alt accounts keep petitioning after asking isk sellers to send isk to player B.
It's already happening -
|
Gojyu
Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 22:36:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Gojyu on 28/08/2008 22:37:27
Originally by: Ander This way of investigation of players could take a nasty turn.
Consider this. What happens if someone out for revenge pays isk sellers to transfer money to someone.
Player A gets ****ed at player B. Player A pays ISKseller C to send isk to player B then petitions player B for suspicion of buying ISK.
GM investigates and find the isk from a known iskseller and gives player B a warning.
Rince and repeat. Player A can through alts or alt accounts keep petitioning after asking isk sellers to send isk to player B.
One problem with it is that you need to purchase an insane amount of isk before ccp will ban you. Secondly, there's 2 easy ways out of this:
1- Player notices isk before gm takes it. Player opens petition, isk is removed, no harm no foul. 2- Player does not notice isk, gm takes it and gives a warning. Player does not notice second time, gm takes and gives a warning. Player realises something is up and petitions gm, stating someone (he doesn't know who) is sending him suspicious isk donations, the player will petition them as they come through, but asks the gm to keep an eye on the account just to be safe. GM thanks player for his honesty, and continues to remove any isk sent without prejudice.
The best part of both these solutions is that the purchasing party doesn't actually know that this is happening, so they keep burning real cash to have no effect. As long as you're an honest player with no track record, you're not going to be caught out by this scheme
|
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 23:01:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Probebly because the guy admited he knew they were isk sellers and also perhaps because he refuses to name and shame who was harbouring the isk sellers/account hackers.
Which reminds me .. did Molle and dbp go through with the deal to rent out plexes to isk farmers/sellers that was revealed last year? I forget how that story ended and whether any Titans were removed or alliance leaders were banned?
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.28 23:14:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Originally by: Lord WarATron Probebly because the guy admited he knew they were isk sellers and also perhaps because he refuses to name and shame who was harbouring the isk sellers/account hackers.
Which reminds me .. did Molle and dbp go through with the deal to rent out plexes to isk farmers/sellers that was revealed last year? I forget how that story ended and whether any Titans were removed or alliance leaders were banned?
Yes, it is all true. It all happened. Molle and dbp got banned. All our titans got recycled in to shuttles.
Meanwhile, 'sup Mynas?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Fanduril
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 00:06:00 -
[227]
Talk about coranor admitting that 2/3 of T2 BPOs were owned by Hegemon, and Hegemon was involved in Ebaying stuff, and they never petitioned him because they feared of losing those T2 BPOs.
Clearly, Band of Brothers stands again as a shiny example of fair play and dedication to rules.
|
Anna Valerios
Amarr Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 00:11:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Fanduril Talk about coranor admitting that 2/3 of T2 BPOs were owned by Hegemon, and Hegemon was involved in Ebaying stuff, and they never petitioned him because they feared of losing those T2 BPOs.
Clearly, Band of Brothers stands again as a shiny example of fair play and dedication to rules.
Hegemon never ebayed the stuff in the end. So whats your point?
|
Fanduril
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 00:12:00 -
[229]
Do I need to dig up the quotes where Coranor said "we never did anything about it because there was the risk of losing those BPOs"?
|
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 10:35:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 29/08/2008 10:46:21 Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 29/08/2008 10:43:05
Originally by: Fanduril Do I need to dig up the quotes where Coranor said "we never did anything about it because there was the risk of losing those BPOs"?
Or we can dig out the quotes where BOB's leaders said that taking billions from isk sellers is ok, as its not their job to stop ebayers, and Molle cackles in mirth at the propect of extorting them. Does Molle still play EVE? Or is it only small fry like Daisho who get made an example of?
|
|
Plim
Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 11:50:00 -
[231]
Confusing thing happen. Forum go mad. Fin.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
EzSnake
Caldari Brass Monkeys Society
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 12:09:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 29/08/2008 10:46:21 Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 29/08/2008 10:43:05
Originally by: Fanduril Do I need to dig up the quotes where Coranor said "we never did anything about it because there was the risk of losing those BPOs"?
Or we can dig out the quotes where BOB's leaders said that taking billions from isk sellers is ok, as its not their job to stop ebayers, and Molle cackles in mirth at the propect of extorting them. Does Molle still play EVE? Or is it only small fry like Daisho who get made an example of?
*IF* you guys had any proof then you'd be petitioning it and not just crying on public forum. Not that I like all things BoB has done in past, but this trying to discredit them via forums just make you look like an asshat. BoB ppl have said a bunch of things on these forums that are straight lies, just to be smart-arses. E.G- The confrimation, the other day, of Orange's titan being popped and him podded (which never happened).
|
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 12:41:00 -
[233]
Originally by: EzSnake *IF* you guys had any proof then you'd be petitioning it and not just crying on public forum.
Only CCP has the proof - and the quotes are from BOB internal communications. Its amusing to reminisce and note the vagaries of policy enforcement.
|
Tia Tzu
Caldari G.E.A.R.
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 12:54:00 -
[234]
No matter how people try to spin it this whole thing stinks. In fact the more you try and explain it the worse it sounds.
GJ CCP I for one think you've done the right thing in this case. These kind or arrangements between ISK sellers and major alliances are killing EvE. Tbh I won't be shedding any tears for the "victims" in this thread.
|
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:19:00 -
[235]
Damn, my anus was itching and I came to the forums to find out why. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
|
EzSnake
Caldari Brass Monkeys Society
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:23:00 -
[236]
Edited by: EzSnake on 29/08/2008 13:23:58
Originally by: Dianabolic Damn, my anus was itching and I came to the forums to find out why.
Your in the wrong place then man!!!!
|
Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:33:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Come on, it's not like hidden info that BOB (and MC back when they were friends) were harbouring farmers.
Come on, it's not like hidden info that Reckless Corsairs are isk farmers.
See how that works?
Come on, it's not like hidden info that Hegemon Rast is going to ebay his titan to isk farmers so it's ok if we steal it from him.
See how that works?
|
TroNaaR
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 13:54:00 -
[238]
ITT:
I'm Tellin on jooooo!!!!
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 18:35:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Moon Kitten
Come on, it's not like hidden info that Hegemon Rast is going to ebay his titan to isk farmers so it's ok if we steal it from him.
See how that works?
Yeah, it works great. As he never actually ebayed it, no rules were broken - just a straight corp theft.
Maybe we should get some thought police? Start banning people before they break any rules, just in case they do?
Actually if we use it to police you guys it wouldn't take much effort. You know, with so few thoughts to investigate an' all.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Fanduril
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 18:40:00 -
[240]
Avon, you're spinning so fast that you might actually take off. -fdrl Goonswarm old timer. AKA "the dude" |
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:00:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Come on, it's not like hidden info that BOB (and MC back when they were friends) were harbouring farmers.
Come on, it's not like hidden info that Reckless Corsairs are isk farmers.
See how that works?
The difference is that I actually have proof.
|
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:08:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Originally by: Lord WarATron Probebly because the guy admited he knew they were isk sellers and also perhaps because he refuses to name and shame who was harbouring the isk sellers/account hackers.
Which reminds me .. did Molle and dbp go through with the deal to rent out plexes to isk farmers/sellers that was revealed last year? I forget how that story ended and whether any Titans were removed or alliance leaders were banned?
Its a really long story. The isk farmers settled down and during the great war, they turned on us. They teamed up with their friends and forumed a multi-alliance collective called Tortuga, though it was rather short lived.
I heard one of the members of this old collective, recently had his Titan removed and character banned after being caught happly and knowingly dealing with isk sellers/account hackers. If only I could find a COAD thread on this subject, I am sure it would shed more light..... --
Billion Isk Mission |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:12:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
The difference is that I actually have proof.
And that proof proves what exactly?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:14:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Fanduril Avon, you're spinning so fast that you might actually take off.
Wait .. is that a mad props gag?
Awesome.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:16:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
The difference is that I actually have proof.
And that proof proves what exactly?
(This is gonna get snipped soon but whaevs)
Yes, i really want to know what that picture proves?
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:29:00 -
[246]
Seriously?
Ok, just to humor you;
This shows a ratter (Civrea, with bad english) getting scared shitless because we were trying to probe him out that all of a sudden a convo opens with several BOB/MC members who then state that they are indeed blue to this ratter corp. Where at some point the question is asked if Mynas is online.
I don't see how much clearer it has to get, but feel free to spin it in any other direction.
|
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:34:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Endo II on 29/08/2008 19:35:10
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Seriously?
Ok, just to humor you;
This shows a ratter (Civrea, with bad english) getting scared shitless because we were trying to probe him out that all of a sudden a convo opens with several BOB/MC members who then state that they are indeed blue to this ratter corp. Where at some point the question is asked if Mynas is online.
I don't see how much clearer it has to get, but feel free to spin it in any other direction.
I still dont see the "OMFG LOOK HES BREAKING THE RULES, BAN HIM AND EAT MY BBQ" point?
Or are we reverting to the old concept of "omg, look, he has bad english, he must be a chinese ISK farmer" .. or even better the "All ratters are isk farmers" concept
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:36:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Endo II
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Seriously?
Ok, just to humor you;
This shows a ratter (Civrea, with bad english) getting scared shitless because we were trying to probe him out that all of a sudden a convo opens with several BOB/MC members who then state that they are indeed blue to this ratter corp. Where at some point the question is asked if Mynas is online.
I don't see how much clearer it has to get, but feel free to spin it in any other direction.
I still dont see the "OMFG LOOK HES BREAKING THE RULES, BAN HIM AND EAT MY BBQ" point?
What are you, fanboi or bob-alt? Where did I state that, I stated that BOB and MC were harbouring farmers. No more, no less.
Trying to overshout doesn't always work youknow.
|
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:38:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Originally by: Endo II
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Seriously?
Ok, just to humor you;
This shows a ratter (Civrea, with bad english) getting scared shitless because we were trying to probe him out that all of a sudden a convo opens with several BOB/MC members who then state that they are indeed blue to this ratter corp. Where at some point the question is asked if Mynas is online.
I don't see how much clearer it has to get, but feel free to spin it in any other direction.
I still dont see the "OMFG LOOK HES BREAKING THE RULES, BAN HIM AND EAT MY BBQ" point?
What are you, fanboi or bob-alt? Where did I state that, I stated that BOB and MC were harbouring farmers. No more, no less.
Trying to overshout doesn't always work youknow.
But that picture doesnt prove that they were harbouring farmers. So your claims are un-substantial.
And no, im not a bob-alt, and im not a fanboi. I might be a troll, but atm all im trying to do is prove a point.
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:40:00 -
[250]
I'm sur you're not... you just have a "vested interest", right?
1) we find a ratter which we've been trying to hunt down, finally I get in a position to probe him 2) ratter squeals in local about having BOB/MC standing 3) we call his bluff 4) convo opens with BOB/MC members trying to sort it out 5) ... 6) profit!!! (for BOB/MC)
|
|
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 19:42:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada I'm sur you're not... you just have a "vested interest", right?
1) we find a ratter which we've been trying to hunt down, finally I get in a position to probe him 2) ratter squeals in local about having BOB/MC standing 3) we call his bluff 4) convo opens with BOB/MC members trying to sort it out 5) ... 6) profit!!! (for BOB/MC)
There might be profit involved for BoB/MC behind the scene. And tbh, i wouldnt mind a few bobians taking a leave from eve :p.
But the convo itself proves nothing, so CCP cant do anything about it. Its not like that guy actually states "Im an isk farmer"
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:04:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:05:05 Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:04:04
Originally by: Endo II There might be profit involved for BoB/MC behind the scene. And tbh, i wouldnt mind a few bobians taking a leave from eve :p.
But the convo itself proves nothing, so CCP cant do anything about it. Its not like that guy actually states "Im an isk farmer"
Lets analyze this post;
First part is to lure the reader into agreeing with the poster, even using the always popular "down with BOB".
The second part is what it was all about, now that the reader is lulled into agreement the poster can then make his statement, trying to to soften the evidence and obvious truth.
TBH, I don't care about BOB, I'm not for nor against them, I'm not interested in any CCP actions whatsoever (as if that would happen). But I'm always more than willing to call people's bluff/spin doctoring whenever possible.
P.S. I see Avon left the building, as there really wasn't much for him to work with regarding this.
|
Endometriosis
Minmatar REUNI0N Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:07:00 -
[253]
Edited by: Endometriosis on 29/08/2008 20:07:32 delete please ---------------------- Darkelf > sigh... have u not noticed how crap ur ship is with those stabs on?
polestar > i suck no matter wtf i have on m8 |
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:11:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:05:05 Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:04:04
Originally by: Endo II There might be profit involved for BoB/MC behind the scene. And tbh, i wouldnt mind a few bobians taking a leave from eve :p.
But the convo itself proves nothing, so CCP cant do anything about it. Its not like that guy actually states "Im an isk farmer"
Lets analyze this post;
First part is to lure the reader into agreeing with the poster, even using the always popular "down with BOB".
The second part is what it was all about, now that the reader is lulled into agreement the poster can then make his statement, trying to to soften the evidence and obvious truth.
TBH, I don't care about BOB, I'm not for nor against them, I'm not interested in any CCP actions whatsoever (as if that would happen). But I'm always more than willing to call people's bluff/spin doctoring whenever possible.
P.S. I see Avon left the building, as there really wasn't much for him to work with regarding this.
Okay. Instead of discussing whether im a BoB forum warrior (but please, stop calling EVERY SINGLE ALT not agreeing with you a BoB alt)
CAn you please show me direct incriminating evidence from that screenshot proving once and for all that any of those people are isk buyers or sellers.
I want direct proof, not the "well, since he said this, it must be this way" thing.
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:18:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:19:02 The "show irrifutable proof!!!!!!" card has been played so often already, and it works quite well ofcourse. I hear BOB was really good at it.
- Someone who's been farming since forever is about to get caught - said Raven pilot then plays his BOB/MC ace - BOB/MC state that they are indeed blue to this corporation with said raven pilot that has been farming since forever
Wether or not this person is Chinese or farms cash for isk sellers is not for me to decide nor did i state such a thing.
He's a farmer, and he's blue to BOB/MC and they are benefitting from this farmer. All I need to know.
|
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:26:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:19:02 The "show irrifutable proof!!!!!!" card has been played so often already, and it works quite well ofcourse. I hear BOB was really good at it.
- Someone who's been farming since forever is about to get caught - said Raven pilot then plays his BOB/MC ace - BOB/MC state that they are indeed blue to this corporation with said raven pilot that has been farming since forever
Wether or not this person is Chinese or farms cash for isk sellers is not for me to decide nor did i state such a thing.
He's a farmer, and he's blue to BOB/MC and they are benefitting from this farmer. All I need to know.
And i completely agree, and nor do i deny that BoB and MC MIGHT be benefiting from farmers and isk sellers.
But we can only guess until we have proof.
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:29:00 -
[257]
There you go again setting us up by having us agree and then actually make your statement.
If a farmer who's corp has no obvious ties to anyone is blue to an alliance (or in this case 2) and is allowed to rat. Even more, both alliances go to great length to sort it out then one can only assume they do as as it is beneficial to them.
What other reason could there be?
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:30:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
P.S. I see Avon left the building, as there really wasn't much for him to work with regarding this.
You mean there is something here that I need to defend?
What, like MC or BoB or whoever have "pet" corps renting access to their space? Hardly a newsflash, is it?
However, renting space to people is not an issue, it is perfectly allowed, and if people want to spend that time blowing up NPC's in a Raven to get rich, great - why else would they rent space if they couldn't profit from it? Surprising though it may seem, not everyone who has ever shot at an NPC is a macro using ISK seller. Are you?
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:40:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:46:10 Well, please explain why you posted this then?
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Come on, it's not like hidden info that BOB (and MC back when they were friends) were harbouring farmers.
Come on, it's not like hidden info that Reckless Corsairs are isk farmers.
See how that works?
P.S; the "look at how unimpressed I am" stance doesn't work on everybody.
|
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:51:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada There you go again setting us up by having us agree and then actually make your statement.
If a farmer who's corp has no obvious ties to anyone is blue to an alliance (or in this case 2) and is allowed to rat. Even more, both alliances go to great length to sort it out then one can only assume they do as as it is beneficial to them.
What other reason could there be?
I dont know what other reason could it be, and as i have already mentioned, i am not denying that BoB and MC could be profiting from aforementioned ISK farmers and sellers.
BUT, i also hold by my stance which states that there is no defenitive proof of this, apart from rumours and speculation, and (YES, EVEN ON COAD) You are innocent, until proven guilty.
And the fact that i agree then make my statement is just my writing style.
|
|
Vily
Amarr Eternity INC. Project Alice.
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 20:56:00 -
[261]
Edited by: Vily on 29/08/2008 20:57:54
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:19:02 The "show irrifutable proof!!!!!!" card has been played so often already, and it works quite well ofcourse. I hear BOB was really good at it.
- Someone who's been farming since forever is about to get caught - said Raven pilot then plays his BOB/MC ace - BOB/MC state that they are indeed blue to this corporation with said raven pilot that has been farming since forever
Wether or not this person is Chinese or farms cash for isk sellers is not for me to decide nor did i state such a thing.
He's a farmer, and he's blue to BOB/MC and they are benefitting from this farmer. All I need to know.
simple facts for you mate.
MC rented constellations in branch to chinese farmers. BOB was not involved in that. Nobody cared at the time. -
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 21:01:00 -
[262]
Quote: I dont know what other reason could it be, and as i have already mentioned, i am not denying that BoB and MC could be profiting from aforementioned ISK farmers and sellers.
You're already begind, Avon indirectly stated they hold farmers. This is called damage control after not being able to counter the arguements
Quote: BUT, i also hold by my stance which states that there is no defenitive proof of this, apart from rumours and speculation, and (YES, EVEN ON COAD) You are innocent, until proven guilty.
That would be a first, besides there's no need. The screenie shows a connection and Avon acknowledged such connections. But feel free to try and wriggle around it.
Quote: And the fact that i agree then make my statement is just my writing style.
And you do that because it's a well known way to get your point across, especially if it concerns "cattle".
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 21:04:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 21:04:47
Originally by: Vily Edited by: Vily on 29/08/2008 20:57:54
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:19:02 The "show irrifutable proof!!!!!!" card has been played so often already, and it works quite well ofcourse. I hear BOB was really good at it.
- Someone who's been farming since forever is about to get caught - said Raven pilot then plays his BOB/MC ace - BOB/MC state that they are indeed blue to this corporation with said raven pilot that has been farming since forever
Wether or not this person is Chinese or farms cash for isk sellers is not for me to decide nor did i state such a thing.
He's a farmer, and he's blue to BOB/MC and they are benefitting from this farmer. All I need to know.
simple facts for you mate.
MC rented constellations in branch to chinese farmers. BOB was not involved in that. Nobody cared at the time.
Thank you, As said I'm not pro/against BOB or MC for that matter (in fact I miss Mynas ). Nor did I (or could I) specify wether it was bob and/or MC as both were in the chat with me.
I saw this post and the "pointing fingers elsewhere" mentality and remembered I still had this screenie, figured I'd drop it in for some fun.
But I guess that clears it up and the damage control alts can now stop wasting effort.
|
Endo II
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 21:04:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Quote: I dont know what other reason could it be, and as i have already mentioned, i am not denying that BoB and MC could be profiting from aforementioned ISK farmers and sellers.
You're already begind, Avon indirectly stated they hold farmers. This is called damage control after not being able to counter the arguements
Quote: BUT, i also hold by my stance which states that there is no defenitive proof of this, apart from rumours and speculation, and (YES, EVEN ON COAD) You are innocent, until proven guilty.
That would be a first, besides there's no need. The screenie shows a connection and Avon acknowledged such connections. But feel free to try and wriggle around it.
Quote: And the fact that i agree then make my statement is just my writing style.
And you do that because it's a well known way to get your point across, especially if it concerns "cattle".
My dear Cygnus, if Avon has confirmed what you say, then this argument is over.
And like i said, its not my personal way of getting a point across, im just writing honestly, or would you rather me de-volution into "LOL WTF BBQ ISK"
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 21:55:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
You're already begind, Avon indirectly stated they hold farmers. This is called damage control after not being able to counter the arguements
lolwut
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 22:06:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Vily Nobody cared at the time.
And I think it would be fair to say, that is still the case. No one cares. People USED to care, but CCP completely ignored them / were utterly incompetent in enforcing their own EULA on this matter, resulting in those that did care, not caring, and those that didn't care, lol'ing.
Simple facts to add to the quoted post:
It is not up to the players to enforce EULA. We are repeatedly told to petition those we believe in breach, but to otherwise behave normally.
It is normal to rent space to those that wish to pay for it.
It is normal to have blue standings to those you rent space to.
Those that rent space, will normally NPC in it.
I could of course go on, but I won't; I think this post is more an experiment to highlight those of you who play this game who are so bigoted / bitter / blind to the simple facts that your judgement is clouded beyond visibility.
The replies that follow will be the results of the experiment. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
|
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 22:21:00 -
[267]
Great post per usual, thing is it made me reply again, just because it holds the normal bulshitting we're so used to.
Lets explain this post for the people that aren't able/willing to look behind the words (but ARE the target audience ofcourse).
Quote: And I think it would be fair to say, that is still the case. No one cares. People USED to care, but CCP completely ignored them / were utterly incompetent in enforcing their own EULA on this matter, resulting in those that did care, not caring, and those that didn't care, lol'ing.
Combination of introduction and truth, always a good start. No problems so far.
Quote: Simple facts to add to the quoted post:
It is not up to the players to enforce EULA. We are repeatedly told to petition those we believe in breach, but to otherwise behave normally.
It is normal to rent space to those that wish to pay for it.
It is normal to have blue standings to those you rent space to.
Those that rent space, will normally NPC in it.
This is the "everybody did it and therefore no one is at fault, BUT WE TRIED OUR BEST AN IT WASN'T US!!!". Great show of the "wir haben es nicht gewusst" mentality.
Quote: I could of course go on, but I won't; I think this post is more an experiment to highlight those of you who play this game who are so bigoted / bitter / blind to the simple facts that your judgement is clouded beyond visibility.
This is where he sets you up, making sure that everyone understands the following part, with some stuff added to make people understand that anyone replying is automatically wrong, because he must be "bigoted, blind and bitter".
Quote: The replies that follow will be the results of the experiment.
BLAMMO!! there it is! The ultimate stopper, because if you read the part above it now means that anyone replying MUST be a bigot, and also blind and bitter person. Therefore removing each and any credibility from said replying poster.
Or rather, he's trying to. But truth be told, it works well and has worked so well in the past so you can't really blame him.
Keep posting in this "we can't be bothered but we're gonna post anyway" manner. It's fun.
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 22:38:00 -
[268]
Edited by: Avon on 29/08/2008 22:38:37 Fortunately for us, it is your "target audience" who get to judge the relative merits of the arguements, rather than you.
I wouldn't trust you to judge a cake contest.
Added: No offence to cake judges. You do an awesome job and I am kinda jealous tbh.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Cygnus Zhada
Amarr Reckless Corsairs
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 22:46:00 -
[269]
Rather weak I must say, effectively it's "NO U" but with more words.
Should have tried something like this:
Quote: Seriously now, you're just being overdramatic. Besides, you have no real knowledge on the matter nor any real proof.
Feel free to make more of an idiot of yourself because this is getting you nowhere, you're just rambling. Anyone can see you're just an angry Goon alt. Did we kick you out of your space lately?"
But then with more words, hidden insinuations and all that ofcourse.Would have been great!
|
Traxio Nacho
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 22:48:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Vily Edited by: Vily on 29/08/2008 20:57:54
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 29/08/2008 20:19:02 The "show irrifutable proof!!!!!!" card has been played so often already, and it works quite well ofcourse. I hear BOB was really good at it.
- Someone who's been farming since forever is about to get caught - said Raven pilot then plays his BOB/MC ace - BOB/MC state that they are indeed blue to this corporation with said raven pilot that has been farming since forever
Wether or not this person is Chinese or farms cash for isk sellers is not for me to decide nor did i state such a thing.
He's a farmer, and he's blue to BOB/MC and they are benefitting from this farmer. All I need to know.
simple facts for you mate.
MC rented constellations in branch to chinese farmers. BOB was not involved in that. Nobody cared at the time.
If I remember that corp approached one of MC leadership and offered 1bil per month for his corp to npc in xxx const.
In fact when we were up north we came across many farmers paying what was then D2 isk to be able to npc :)
But as diana says its not upto players to police isk farmers its upto CCP, I have petitioned many farmers only to see them still mining months later.
CCP don't really care and to be honest why should they? Farmers pay CCP money just like the rest of us, if they did get rid of all the farmers they would lose out on alot of money.
PS: Mynas didn't have anything to do with it though it was someone else :)
|
|
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.08.29 22:54:00 -
[271]
To be fair, farming isn't against the rules. Using macros, account sharing, and ISK selling are against the rules, but plenty of people farm ISK on multiple clients for their own in-game use, and perfectly legitimately.
I really should try earning some ISK one day.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Re Mi
Caldari Funshine Unlimited
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 04:54:00 -
[272]
Dear Daisho/KIA, Now for me to return some words you pvpers love to dump on us carebears. "STOP WHINING". This started off as a relevant thread, but now it is merely pathetic. Only us carebears are allowed to wallow in self pity like this, but then again, we are a subspecies only useful for ganking because we are soft and squishy. But I digress.
I think many people forget, "CCP is god" in this universe of computer bits. They own it, they run the servers. There is no illegal or legal in this world, there is only what they want. They program our reality. Go read the EULA, we are all their property and everything we have here is their property, everything we say and do here is owned by them. You do not own anything here. You pay them money and they allow you to exist. You are chattel. The things you think you own, belong to CCP. And when isk sellers make real life money off of things in this game, they are stealing intellectual property owned by CCP, not you. It is not yours, it was never yours, it will never be yours. You understand?
Now if CCP wants to make it like you never existed, they can simply purge you from the server. According to the RL "legal" rules, this is their right, and there is nothing you can do about it. And if they suspect you for any reason CCP can erase you, and they can do so without justification or cause. You understand? They don't need a reason at all to erase you. They can ban you for any reason, and no reason at all and this will be "legal". This legal/illegal discussion is a moot point. You have no free will in this regard. It is a system that has rules, but those rules are capricious and completely arbitrary at times. CCP is god, and not a merciful god.
"This is not fair" you say. Well, it wasn't fair when my friend got suicide ganked for a ship he worked months to build. It wasn't fair when my assets in space were systematically annihilated "for fun" or because some idiot "got bored", and another time because another idiot though it would be funny to watch happen. Its not fair that most of the major alliances in EvE maintain their position through scams and on the backs of "honest" players. Its not fair!!! Leave Brittany alone!!! How many people did that Titan kill? Was that fair to them?
CCP runs one of the most ruthless computer games ever invented, it is a writhing pit of snakes. It is positively diabolical at times, and sadism and cruelty towards others is a hallmark of the game. This is the culture that CCP cultivates and encourages. This is why having friends in EvE means so much, because you must struggle just to survive, and you cannot survive alone, and good friends are worth more than anything in that regard. This is the glue that binds the game together, that is the redemptive quality of the game that makes it worth playing. This is why the only "sin" you can truly commit in EvE is to betray your corp, to lie to them, and to steal from them. Your word is your bond. The EvE Community is bound together, not because it is just and fair, but because it is the opposite. EvE is inherently unfair by design. This is EvE. And EvE is run by CCP. Best regards,
Re Mi
Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation |
Aales Eae
Solus Navy
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 05:03:00 -
[273]
You tell them Re Mi Butter Dog = Bitter Puppy
|
white kight
SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 11:09:00 -
[274]
I would lock this CCP, this has turned into a derailed whine. GL Dashio, this thread started to explain your position, now people are moaning and *****ing about everything to ever happen in eve. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
cheese monkey
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.08.30 13:48:00 -
[275]
people, relax, you'll live longer!
take care ketch.
|
Plim
Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 01:20:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Re Mi Dear Daisho/KIA,
This is EvE. And EvE is run by CCP.
Re Mi
And it's paid for by the players.
Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus." |
Gojyu
Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 04:03:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Plim
Originally by: Re Mi Dear Daisho/KIA,
This is EvE. And EvE is run by CCP.
Re Mi
And it's paid for by the players.
Yes, but you can take this opportunity to learn the lesson diasho have learnt themselves: Just because you pay cold hard cash for something doesn't mean it works out like you had planned
|
Kraken Kill
Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.08.31 06:03:00 -
[278]
Hows BWF working out for yall?
LOL at Ketchy supporting Isk farming. I heard SoD corp will be joining the next alliance to take BWF? They just cant get enough. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page] |