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Reyna Neens
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Posted - 2008.08.18 18:37:00 -
[1]
I just got this game a month ago. For now, I've been doing mission running. However, I know that in the future I want to try my hand at manufacturing. However, I can't find basic level information anywhere. What I really want to do is to manufacture my own ammo (Havoc Heavy Missles). How (including what skills) do I manufacture these items without taking a loss (from buying directly from the market)? |
Halvus
Minmatar Wolfington Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.18 18:48:00 -
[2]
You can start manufacturing straight away - just buy the Blueprint (BPO) from the market and off you go.
To make it cost effective you'll need to do a couple of things before starting the manufacturing job:
1) Train the skill "Production Efficiency" up to at least level4. Each level reduces waste minerals. Train to level 5 before doing any serious manufacturing.
2) Run some Material Research on your BPO. I recommend taking your BPO to at least ML9 to reduce blueprint waste. |
Tinker1947
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Posted - 2008.08.18 18:49:00 -
[3]
Learn Production Efficiency to lvl 5, then come back here..... |
Liadan Khanum
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Posted - 2008.08.18 18:49:00 -
[4]
Its the last part thats the trickiest.
To get close you will need A Perfect Blueprint Original (or copy) (base max mineral/5.5 or perfect max mineral/5) Production Efficency 5 A good cheap source of minerals
And sometimes its still better to buy from the market.
Some people will sell small lots of mission loot cheap. I sell laser crystals and projectile ammo for whatever I get for it. |
Reyna Neens
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Posted - 2008.08.18 19:23:00 -
[5]
Sounds like I have a lot more training to go, including lots of level 5s. Thanks for the info. I guess the key is to reduce waste. Looks like I will have to figure out how to make datacores and one of the stickies should help with that while I improve my skils. |
Sysion
Core Research Expedition
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Posted - 2008.08.18 19:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Reyna Neens Sounds like I have a lot more training to go, including lots of level 5s. Thanks for the info. I guess the key is to reduce waste. Looks like I will have to figure out how to make datacores and one of the stickies should help with that while I improve my skils.
First, you can't make datacores, you get them through working with research agents. Though even then, you don't need them just to make standard Havoc Heavy Missiles. You only need them for invention, to get either the Havoc Precision/Fury Missiles. To do invention would be far more training than just Production Efficiency.
Also, to avoid the costs of the BPO or dealing with getting it researched, you could likely buy pre-searched BPCs. If you are just building for yourself, those would be more cost effective. The BPO is ~630k, and then need to research it by either waiting 30 days for a public lab or doing through a corp with access to labs, or you could just buy a BPC (a limited run copy of the BPO) through searching contracts.
A single BPC with full runs (1500) would get you 150,000 missiles. |
Tinker1947
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Posted - 2008.08.18 20:34:00 -
[7]
Reyna, you buy a BPO and i will swap it for a research one ML=100 PE=100 call me in game....this is a one off. |
Dai'nin Roi'nin
Absinthe Brothers Consortium
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Posted - 2008.08.18 23:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tinker1947 Reyna, you buy a BPO and i will swap it for a research one ML=100 PE=100 call me in game....this is a one off.
Make sure the BP Tinker offers says Original in green in the attributes. Could try to swindle you out of a BPO with a Blue Print Copy. |
Erakyn
Big Orange Cog
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Posted - 2008.08.18 23:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Erakyn on 18/08/2008 23:45:01 Just a couple of comments from a newbie manufacturer/player who has been at it about a week....
1) You don't need Production Efficiency V to make money or start manufacturing. I made well over 50 million in profit (not a huge sum for many, but good money for someone in the game a couple of months like myself) this weekend manufacturing 3 basic items with Production Efficiency II. I would argue that it is better not to start with PE V, as having the lower skill forces you to be smarter in what you choose to manufacture and be accurate in your cost calculations - and as you train your skill your profit margins only increase.
2) Think about your process and your supporting skills. Can you fly a hauler? If not than don't start buying ship blueprints that require large amounts of minerals that will need to be moved around. How are you acquiring minerals? How many of the item can you get to market at one time? Your logistics are important and should be considered up front. It is not that complicated but just make sure you think through through process.
3) Pick a good location to setup shop. Find somewhere ideally 2 -3 jumps from a couple of decent trade hubs. If you don't know where the hubs are check the Map for # of pilots in space and the big red circles are usually the ones you want in Empire space. Try to be quickly accessible to 3 or more regions (i.e. within 5 jumps). Prices/costs/demand can vary significantly from region to region, so you want to be able capitalize on that quickly and efficiently.
4) Train a few levels of the Trading skill. Depending on the number of items you are making, and the number of places where you are selling, you will need more order slots.
5) Be aggressive in managing your orders. If you have profit margin to spare than don't be afraid to keep your items at the best price. Undersell by 1 ISK, and move your inventory.
6) Reinvest your profits.
7) Researched BPOs are available on contracts - but watch out for scammers, and always do your calculations before purchasing. Also when making calculations err on the side of caution to allow for price fluctuations in mineral pricing. Also make sure you calculate how many items you need to make and sell at your profit to pay off the cost of the blueprint.
8) If you are patient you can put a portion of your goods in smaller trade centers/regions - they generally take a little longer to sell, but you can usually get a higher price.
This is some of what I have learned so far - and don't be afraid to jump in and get started. |
Yelan Zhou
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.18 23:59:00 -
[10]
I strongly agree with the poster above me.Produktion efficency V should be a longterm goal but its not a must to geting started. |
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Thoram
Minmatar Twin Sun Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.19 02:47:00 -
[11]
I agree with what pretty much the others have said here, except the proximity to a tradehub.
I would suggest you put some distance between yourself and a tradehub, and don't sell to an existing buyer. Rather set up shop some distance away, and place your own sales order. Tradehubs have a constant pricewar going on, where people are undercutting eachother by 0,01 isk or so.
But if you set up shop at maybe 10 jumps from a tradehub, you can charge a bit more for your items, as many wouldn't make a 10-20 jumps to save on a few isk.
Also if you can, you might want to get into mining yourself. The minerals will still have a price, but depending on the skills you have in mining and refining, along with your standing at the station, you can lower your material cost.
You need 6,67 faction with the station to get rid of the "we take" loss on refining of ore. The waste reduction is done by training the proper skills. Such as [Mineral] processing to level 3-4
Also doing material research on a BPO is becoming a waste after ME 20, when it comes to smaller things like ammo. Waste in the term of spending to much time and money with the BPO locked up in a research lab. |
Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.19 06:00:00 -
[12]
If you don't have PE V you're not making money manufacturing; you're making money trading.
You'd be better off buying whatever it was you wanted to make at a hub to resell and simply selling your minerals.
As a rule manufacturing is not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But it is a way to kick your mining and trading profits up a notch.
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Tinker1947
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Posted - 2008.08.19 06:49:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tinker1947 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reyna, you buy a BPO and i will swap it for a research one ML=100 PE=100 call me in game....this is a one off. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make sure the BP Tinker offers says Original in green in the attributes. Could try to swindle you out of a BPO with a Blue Print Copy
Swindle, your a sad person. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Liadan Khanum A good cheap source of minerals
And sometimes its still better to buy from the market.
The supply of minerals you have has no bearing. If you can't build them for less than they sell for using the cheapest local minerals on sell orders then simply BUY the existing items on market and refine them then sell the minerals. Don't build something that will make you a loss, make a profit by refining.
Getting cheap minerals will help you make profit off those minerals, but it will NOT help you make profit from the manufacturing phase, as you could always just sell those minerals for more than you paid for them. |
Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.08.19 13:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tinker1947 Learn Production Efficiency to lvl 5, then come back here.....
why even bother to write such a crap answer ? Some of us actually have the brains to figure out how to make money without it. |
LordSax7648
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Posted - 2008.08.19 16:56:00 -
[16]
Reyna,
Even if you were to get the major skills and get a nicely researched bpo, as a rule it would still be cheaper to buy ammo off the market, as many get this in loot and sell on the cheap.
LS
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Clair Bear
Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.08.20 05:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
Originally by: Tinker1947 Learn Production Efficiency to lvl 5, then come back here.....
why even bother to write such a crap answer ? Some of us actually have the brains to figure out how to make money without it.
By using 'free' minerals?
You can always buy goods cheaper than what PE 4 manufacturing yields in empire. Without fail.
What you're making ISK off of in that case is trading, not manufacturing.
So yes, training ME V and getting researched BPOs is mandatory for a serious manufacturer. Since everyone has a manu-alt (or ARE the manu-alt turned main) it's simply not possible to compete with ME IV or lower. |
Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2008.08.20 11:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Clair Bear
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
Originally by: Tinker1947 Learn Production Efficiency to lvl 5, then come back here.....
why even bother to write such a crap answer ? Some of us actually have the brains to figure out how to make money without it.
By using 'free' minerals?
You can always buy goods cheaper than what PE 4 manufacturing yields in empire. Without fail.
What you're making ISK off of in that case is trading, not manufacturing.
So yes, training ME V and getting researched BPOs is mandatory for a serious manufacturer. Since everyone has a manu-alt (or ARE the manu-alt turned main) it's simply not possible to compete with ME IV or lower.
Yea i know its needed but hes telling him not to bother until he has it which tbh is bs, and it IS possible to compete without it anyway, you ever left jita ? |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.20 13:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Clair Bear You can always buy goods cheaper than what PE 4 manufacturing yields in empire. Without fail.
So yes, training ME V and getting researched BPOs is mandatory for a serious manufacturer. Since everyone has a manu-alt (or ARE the manu-alt turned main) it's simply not possible to compete with ME IV or lower.
There are certain ammo BPOs where the amount of minerals used by someone with PE3 or PE4 are the same as someone with it trained to lvl 5. Granted only the ones that use very few materials, but still. Some even with the BPO at ME0 have no wastage.
Also there are plenty of items that you can still make a profit from even with wastage, particularly those that are used a heap and don't drop as loot much, as well as those that take a long time to build.
Personally I wouldn't bother until you had PE lvl 5, but it is not as black and white as you make it out to be.
Also, if the difference between profit and loss is realised by a level or two of PE, then you're not making the right product, you can make alot more if you pick the right products. |
Reyna Neens
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tinker1947 Originally by: Tinker1947 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reyna, you buy a BPO and i will swap it for a research one ML=100 PE=100 call me in game....this is a one off. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make sure the BP Tinker offers says Original in green in the attributes. Could try to swindle you out of a BPO with a Blue Print Copy
Swindle, your a sad person.
I'm going to pass on the offer for one reason. I want to learn what I'm doing rather than simply having things given to me. |
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Reyna Neens
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Posted - 2008.08.20 14:52:00 -
[21]
Thanks for all the info. If you have more tips keep it coming. I realize I will be operating at a loss early on, but it's part of the learning process. Here is what I plan on doing although I will continue to buy off the market for a while.
1) Train skills to get an R&D agent and start building up research points to eventually convert to datacores. 2) Train skills for invention on the item, most likely missles since I consume a lot right now. 3) Buy a blue print original from the market. 4) "Invent" the blueprint to increase it's efficiency. Buy components from the market as needed until I obtain my own. 5) Train Production Efficiency to reduce waste. 6) Gather materials (likely involves more skill training such as refining). 7) Start manufacturing. |
Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.08.20 15:24:00 -
[22]
This: http://evefiles.mysterious-mysteries.com/eve-online_science_and_industry_guide.html http://www.thebabushka.com/eve-online/ http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=468637
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Lopin Acheteur
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.20 16:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Reyna Neens Thanks for all the info. If you have more tips keep it coming. I realize I will be operating at a loss early on, but it's part of the learning process. Here is what I plan on doing although I will continue to buy off the market for a while.
1) Train skills to get an R&D agent and start building up research points to eventually convert to datacores. 2) Train skills for invention on the item, most likely missles since I consume a lot right now. 3) Buy a blue print original from the market. 4) "Invent" the blueprint to increase it's efficiency. Buy components from the market as needed until I obtain my own. 5) Train Production Efficiency to reduce waste. 6) Gather materials (likely involves more skill training such as refining). 7) Start manufacturing.
I think you're confusing invention with researching Material Efficiency, which doesn't require datacores etc. Invention is to turn T1 BPCs into T2 BPCs of that item (eg the Rage/Fury Precision/Javelin versions of missiles).
The base wastage on a new BPO is 10%, researching that a few levels up will drastically reduce that (waste halves per level).
There's not a huge point at operating at a loss, you can find something else that makes a profit fairly easily. |
Reyna Neens
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Posted - 2008.08.20 16:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Reyna Neens on 20/08/2008 16:33:04 Thanks for the links. I realized after reading it that I was confusing invention with material research.
Although it's not related to manufacturing, I still need to get the R&D agents to get into the Tech 2 blueprint lottery. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.20 16:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Reyna Neens I still need to get the R&D agents to get into the Tech 2 blueprint lottery.
There is no Tech 2 blueprint lottery (it ended over a year ago), there is only datacores. (Which arguably are more valuable as the provide a tangible and certain reward instead of years of effort for nothing). |
Aloura Deshine
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Posted - 2008.08.20 17:29:00 -
[26]
So the TECH 2 BPO did officially end a year ago?? I have been trying to find this out for so long. Can anyone else confirm? Also - What does that mean when it comes to the state of Tech 2 BPO's? Are they randomly seeded? Who has all the Tech 2 BPO's - Large corps? Is it just invention of tech 2 BPC's for the future? WHY THE HECK doesn't CCP publish this stuff!!? I find myself wondering these questions like Reyna and I have been in game 5 months! Trying to do the same thing I might add. ::SIGHS:: This game is frustrating as all heck when it comes to building, inventing, exploring, researching. Those careers are not that user friendly and I watch the channels everyday and have experienced friends. No wonder they don't dable in those professions. It is just easier to go out and blow stuff up. |
Erakyn
Big Orange Cog
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Posted - 2008.08.20 17:42:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Erakyn on 20/08/2008 17:44:06
Originally by: Reyna Neens Edited by: Reyna Neens on 20/08/2008 16:33:04 Thanks for the links. I realized after reading it that I was confusing invention with material research.
Although it's not related to manufacturing, I still need to get the R&D agents to get into the Tech 2 blueprint lottery.
I have not actually done any BP research yet so I won't comment on the technicalities of it - but I will say this - in the Empire regions that I am close to there is typically a 30-45 day wait just to get a slot at a public NPC research facility. So if you want to research your own BPs you will have to be patient or use an POS lab. There are several topics about this in this forum.
If you have a bit of money - look in contracts for researched BPOs or BPCs (these can be had fairly cheaply).
Also with missiles you are looking at very thin margins at trade hubs (or no profit at all with the price of Zydrine climbing the way it has the past month). Sell in lower traffic areas and you will do better. |
Aluka 7th
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.08.20 18:28:00 -
[28]
Answers to last few posts:
Yes, last lottery prizes were given 1.5 years ago. I can confirm that. Actualy I got one BPO on lottery. Since then research agent give ONLY data cores that are used in invention proces which converts T1 BPC to T2 BPC.
All T2 BPO's still exist in space and are used. And people that do invention make T2 BPCs and compete equally on market with BPO owners.
Also items/ships that entered EVE space during this year don't have BPO at all. Only BPCs made from invention exist for ships like marauders, E. attack frigates and....
P.S. If you need any help you are more then welcome to call me in-game for little chit chat to give you some pointers.
Aluka 7th
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.08.20 18:46:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Aloura Deshine So the TECH 2 BPO did officially end a year ago?? I have been trying to find this out for so long. Can anyone else confirm? Also - What does that mean when it comes to the state of Tech 2 BPO's? Are they randomly seeded? Who has all the Tech 2 BPO's - Large corps? Is it just invention of tech 2 BPC's for the future? WHY THE HECK doesn't CCP publish this stuff!!? I find myself wondering these questions like Reyna and I have been in game 5 months! Trying to do the same thing I might add. ::SIGHS:: This game is frustrating as all heck when it comes to building, inventing, exploring, researching. Those careers are not that user friendly and I watch the channels everyday and have experienced friends. No wonder they don't dable in those professions. It is just easier to go out and blow stuff up.
If you do a search CCP Oveur posted on the forums that the lottery was dead over a year ago, there was also several dev blogs on it. I think it's possible that since you joined long after it was dead you missed this, though at that point I'm not sure where you got the idea that such a lottery even existed...
As for this game, it is very complex, there is alot to learn, but just asking here will get you alot of answers.
There are T2 BPOs out there, people that own them either got them in the lottery or have subsequently bought them from an old owner. They're not particularly relevant anymore though as even the best are not big earners. This is largely due to invention which lets anyone build T2 items without a BPO. |
Commander Vic
Minmatar Ioncross
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Posted - 2008.08.20 23:27:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Commander Vic on 20/08/2008 23:28:31 To answer your original question of producing ammo for yourself (not for resale) you really only need a few low level skills to be able to do it so that it costs less than buying the ammo. Assuming you're running missions you'll want to train Refining to reduce waste from reprocessing loot that you don't sell, ignore the skill description as it will help with reprocessing. You'll also want to train Production Efficiency as mentioned by other posters. Train those two up until you feel they take too long to train further.
Missiles (and most T1 ammo in fact) uses minimal resources compared to other manufacturing jobs such as ships & modules. 100 run jobs will finish relatively quickly and will result in 10,000 units of the ammo/missile you produce which should last some time. The minerals needed are easily gathered by reprocessing the cheapest loot modules or ammunition types you don't use. At this point any difference between selling the minerals from reprocessed loot and buying ammo versus using the minerals to produce your own ammo is low enough that it's worth it for the time and effort saved by not having to deal with the market and picking up the purchased munitions. As your skills in Refining and Production Efficiency increase so do your savings. In reality, although you may be losing a few cents per missile you can do this with no skill in Production Efficiency and still benefit depending on where you operate and what the maket conditions are for the missiles you use. The benefit is even better if you produce other, less common missiles types for use against specific mission rats as their market prices can be artificailly inflated or they may only be available at stations a few jumps away.
Once you get to the point where you actually want to produce things that you'll sell for a profit go back and read all of the over-complicated responses above ;) |
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