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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 00:15:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ami Nia on 19/08/2008 00:20:41
edit: spelling
This started as a reply to this thread but it became pretty long and I think there's enough new information to grant a separate thread on this evergreen topic.
Of course reading the stickies is still compulsory. Especially the Attributes & Skills Guide by Hardin & Tripoli.
First of all a note about implants.
If you can afford them, they are really worth it. At least the +3 set (maybe short of the charisma implant) I highly recommend. When exactly is best to train for them really depends on what your starting skills are, especially because Science 3 is a prerequisite to training Cybernetics and some races/careers combinations will give you Science 3 upfront, while others will not give Science at all.
EveMon can help you to find out. If you are unsure and want a general rule do this:
- If you can only afford a +3 set or less (maybe short of the charisma implant) go for Cybernetics 1 right after Analytical Mind 2 (see below).
- If you can only afford a +4 set (maybe short of the charisma implant) go straight for Cybernetics 4 right after Analytical Mind 3 (see below).
- If you can afford a +5 set (maybe short of the charisma implant), I presume you can also shell out the isks for two extra +3 implants. In this case go for Cybernetics 1 right after Analytical Mind 2, then plug in +3 intelligence and memory. You'll use them until you trained Logic 4 then train up Cybernetics 5 and plug in the +5 implants (note: it may be a good idea to train Infomorph Psychology I and pay for a Jump Clone service to spare those +3s as they may come in handy later on).
In any case, you need not buy/plug in any implant but intelligence and memory until Part 3.
A little note: the above is not strictly rigorous and optimal for all cases but is pretty much on the spot as a "general rule". To squeeze out the very best training time down to the last minute you need to actually do the hard math on a case by case basis. Plus "uber optimal" can actually be nonsense. Unless you are willing to do things like spend for two +4 implants to be used only for the training of Cybernetics 5 (if you are that sort of crazy, then there's a fee of 50 million isk for reading this post, payable to me).
Now for the actual skills.
*** Part 1, the intelligence/memory/learning triage.
Instant Recall 1
Analytical Mind 1
Learning 1
Instant Recall 2
Analytical Mind 2
Learning 2
Instant Recall 3
Analytical Mind 3
Learning 3
Instant Recall 4
Eidetic Memory 1
Eidetic Memory 2
Eidetic Memory 3
Analytical Mind 4
Logic 1
Logic 2
Logic 3
Learning 4
Eidetic Memory 4
Logic 4
Instant Recall 5
Analytical Mind 5
Learning 5
Eidetic Memory 5
Logic 5
You should train at least to Logic 3 ASAP (to Learning 4 if you use implants).
Train to Logic 4 if you are staying for more than a few months.
Train to Analytical Mind 5 if you are staying for more than 8-10 months (to Learning 5 if you use implants).
Train Eidetic Memory 5 and Logic 5 only if you know you'll stay for several years AND you have implants (or if you plan to just sell the character).
... continues ... |
Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 00:16:00 -
[2]
*** Part 2, the rank 1 perception/willpower/charisma triage.
The order here does not matter at all. They all train at the same speed and give you no advantage/disadvantage in switching order. Also, unlike the case for memory/intelligence, you should train all the rank 1 skills up to whatever you want them before switching to any of the rank 3s.
You do want to train Iron Will, Spatial Awareness and Empathy (yes, Empathy too) to at least level 4.
Do not train Empathy 5.
You may want to train Iron Will and Spatial Awareness to 5 if you plan to stay for longer than 8-10 months.
*** Part 3, the rank 3 perception/willpower/charisma triage.
Contrary to what you may have seen in some other posts, even the sticky linked above, the order you train the rank 3 skills DOES make a difference.
However, unlike the case for the other two parts, it is impossible to define a generic order. Not even the common "train the fastest skill first" rule is optimal in all cases (and that's why EveMon does not currently give you optimal plans in this area, unless you manually go and switch skill order).
Before training the rank 3 skills of Part 3 there are two things you should do:
- first thing is to plug in the perception and willpower implants (and eventually charisma implant, but except for those that plan to do heavy charisma training I'd say you'd better spare the money. Note, however, that charisma is used as a secondary to train Focus. Maybe just plug in a +3 charisma if you went for a +5 set, or that +1 implant you get from the business careers 10 missions tutorial).
- second thing is decide how much you want to train Presence. Charisma is not very useful. But it also is not totally useless. Unless you plan to do heavy charisma related stuff, I'd suggest to train it to 3 if you are going to stay for more than 6-8 months, else just to 2.
As for Focus and Clarity you should:
- train at least to 3.
- train to 4 if you are staying for more than a few months.
- train to 5 only if you know you'll stay for several years AND you have implants (or if you plan to just sell the character).
How to find out the optimal order in which to train?
There are 2 different phases: the first is when you are training all three skills (including Presence). The second is when you dropped Presence and are only training Focus and Clarity.
During the second phase the optimal will be to alternate Focus and Clarity in training each level, always training Focus first and Clarity second (yes, even if it turns out that Clarity takes less time to train then Focus for a given level, if you are NOT training Presence any more, always train Focus first, then Clarity). If you use EveMon you may want to manually switch their order as it will most probably have them reversed.
How to optimize the first phase however is too complex to describe. The best advise I can give you is this: use EveMon to test the possible combinations. There are several ways to do this, but I do not want to give you a crash course on EveMon (besides I'm on a Mac and do not use it, so I would not be able to verify exactly every detail). I'll just teach you one easy way.
... continues ... |
Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 00:16:00 -
[3]
A few premises:
- You can do the test at any time.
- It is not relevant what other skills are in the plan and what skills you already know, therefore you can do the test at any time and you can use any plan. But you may want to do the EveMon checks during Part 2 (see above) so that you do not end up spending time in it with no skill training in progress. Also it's easier (but not important) if you start a new empty plan.
- It is however relevant what implants you'll have. The easiest way to make sure your results are correct is to actually plug in the perception, willpower and charisma implants before you do the testing (even if you end up plugging them in a bit earlier than needed). And of course check that EveMon is synced and knows what implants you have.
How to do the testing:
- Add Presence, Focus and Clarity to the plan at level 5 (yes, level 5, even if you are not actually going to train them).
- If you decided to train to level 5 any of Iron Will, Spatial Awareness or Empathy during Part 2 above, add them to the plan so that EveMon knows what level they'll be. If you have not done all of Part 1 (see above) skilling yet, add to the plan the level of Learning that you are going to learn. Note: you do not need to add to the plan any memory/intelligence skill, no matter what your current level and what your target level are.
- The order of the skills in the plan is not important for this test, except for the last three skills in the plan. Just make sure the LAST THREE planned skills are Presence 5, Focus 5 and Clarity 5. Ignore anything before that, but do manually drag those three to the end of the plan if needed.
- You will be looking at only one number: the "Total Training Time" for the plan that you can find in the status bar at the bottom.
- You do not need to check all combinations, only 3 orderings of these last 5 skills are relevant. Read (and note) the total training time you get for the following three cases:
1) Presence, Clarity, Focus
2) Focus, Presence, Clarity
3) Clarity, Focus, Presence
- Which of the three ordering above gave you the shortest total training time?
The answer to that question is your answer. You want to train each level in that order.
Note, in particular, that with the exception of 2) above, the best order for training Clarity and Focus is reversed with respect of the order you'll do later when you drop Presence. For example, on one of my characters, where I decided to only train Presence to 2 but go to 4 with both Focus and Clarity, the best order turned out to be:
Clarity 1
Focus 1
Presence 1
Clarity 2
Focus 2
Presence 2
Focus 3
Clarity 3
Focus 4
Clarity 4
Well, that's all.
Hope it helps.
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 00:17:00 -
[4]
reserved (one never knows)
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Noskill McCheese
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Posted - 2008.08.19 04:44:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Ami Nia
only 3 orderings of these last 5 skills are relevant. Read (and note) the total training time you get for the following three cases:
1) Presence, Clarity, Focus
2) Focus, Presence, Clarity
3) Clarity, Focus, Presence
Clarity 1
Focus 1
Presence 1
Clarity 2
Focus 2
Presence 2
Focus 3
Clarity 3
Focus 4
Clarity 4
Well, that's all.
Hope it helps.
I think you got it wrong. In the example of what was fastest for you... it goes faster like this.
clarity
presence
focus
the order for everyone is very simple to find out. Train your fastest one first (fer real) then train whatever your first one is the secondary attribute for. |
Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 10:36:00 -
[6]
You are correct.
And I had reported the three 'orders' wrong too ;)
I'ts now edited and should now be correct info.
Also I should learn not to write such posts at 2 in the night.
Especially because I have a tendency of mixing up the effects of the different skills. Like what's the rank 3 willpower? I tend to think it's clarity. While it actually is focus. Or is it 
Well. The point is willpower aids in the skilling up of perception but perception does not aid the skilling up of willpower (charisma does). So when you train only perception and willpower, it's always best to train willpower first. While if you train all three (and they currently are at the same level) , after training willpower you always train perception, after training charisma you always train willpower and after training perception you always train charisma. This leads to a sort of "forced order" that looks like a closed chain where you only need to decide where to begin. If the attributes are more or less even, then the EveMon suggestion is correct (train the one that takes less time first). But, for some, this is not true. Because a very low attribute does take longer to train, but also gives a much higher boost (diminishing returns again).
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 10:51:00 -
[7]
Thinking about it, in post 3 above I suggest you find out the best order among the three possible ones testing the level 5 trainings with EveMon.
This should be correct. Unless ... unless there are cases where the diminishing returns effect and the growing absolute values of the attributes actually are such that the best order changes midway, so that at level 1 and 2 training a slower attribute first is best because of the big boost it gives even when secondary but, say, at level 3 or 4, because of the diminishing returns of the higher magnitude of the attributes and the longer times of skill training, another order becomes better.
The best order for each level should always be one of the three above (were wrong, now I edited them and shall be the correct ones). But it may be that the best order at level 1 is not the best at level 5. Anyone can figure out a case when this happens?
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Noskill McCheese
the order for everyone is very simple to find out. Train your fastest one first (fer real) then train whatever your first one is the secondary attribute for.
I've reread your sentence. And I QFT.
I thought you were suggesting to train the fastest one first always. That would be incorrect (and I think that's what EveMon suggests, but I do not have EveMon and am not sure. I did use it once at a friends computer and it did not suggest the best order. I THINK it suggests the fastest first).
But now that I re-read you, YES. You are 100% right.
This is the very best (and actually easier) thing to do.
At each level, check the skill that trains in less time. Train that first. Then go with the one that has that attribute as secondary. Then for the last one.
You'll always end up with one of the three orders I listed in post 3.
Which one, depends on your actual attributes (including implants).
I'm going to edit post 3 above accordingly.
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.19 11:47:00 -
[9]
ZOMG!
I REALLY should not post at night!
I re edited the Part 3 and incorporated Noskill solution. It's now easier and shorter.
Post 3 is no more used as I could fit all in just 2 posts.
I also added a note about EveMon behavior as reported by a friend (I do not have EveMon myself).
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notaway
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.08.20 05:20:00 -
[10]
Man, I cannot even fathom the do this and then that stuff. This is how I did it. Had the beta implants, got podded at some point and moved up to basics, got podded at some point and moved up to standards. Then I looked at the ranks of all the skills I have yet to train and didn't like what I was seeing. (Oh yes, at some point, I had previously trained all rank 1 learning skills to lvl 5 and all the advanced rank 3 ones to lvl 4.) So I said to myself, I am a JOAT (jack of all trades) and training times are getting really long--so I bought the improved implants and trained cyber to lvl 5 to use them.
Just plugged them into a jump clone today and then looking at what I wanted to improve on first decided to take Clarity to lvl 5 as perception is best for those gunnery and space command skills. Then I am thinking, Focus, should be next although Willpower doesn't seem to be a primary attribute for any of the skills that I can see.
Then after those two, I figure eidetic memory to 5 cause for some reason, drone skills need high attributes in that area and finally logic----BUT I will no doubt, train a bunch of gunnery skills etc before training eidetic memory and ditto for logic.
So summation--I just train what I feel will help out best at the time without looking at (shudder shudder) the math etc. I get to a certain point and say yes this mod or this skill would be helpful and so train the skill necessary to use etc. Did I tell you that I buy skills well in advance of being able to use them--ah but that is another thread. |
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Krissam
Nomads
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:42:00 -
[11]
pretty nice guide, but i'ld like to point out you forgot to mention something.
Some characters start out with Instant Recall IV (IR), which means they can train Eidetic Memory (EM) right away, which would make it worth training a few levels in before you train Analytical Mind (AM).
For instance. my character started with IR IV, and AM II, according to your list i should train AM III before moving on to EM I, but it would actually be better to train EM I+II, AM III, EM III and the continue as your list pointed out. |
Viqtoria
Caldari
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:51:00 -
[12]
the time saved faffing with precise orders will be lost on the numerous times you'll not be able to get to your pc to change a skill after it's finished. |
Krissam
Nomads
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:54:00 -
[13]
no? not unless you have too low an iq to figure out you should probably train another skill because you wont be back in time for that one to finish. |
Viqtoria
Caldari
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.08.21 12:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Krissam
no? not unless you have too low an iq to figure out you should probably train another skill because you wont be back in time for that one to finish.
yes because things never crop up which mean you will not be at your pc.
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Krissam
Nomads
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:07:00 -
[15]
that is exactly just as likely to happen when not training a skill which is in the optimal order, as when not doing it. |
Viqtoria
Caldari
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.08.21 13:16:00 -
[16]
if you train skills in a non optimal order there's a chance the disruptions won't get in the way.
and you mentioned IQ, if you have IQ it's obvious what the best order is, no need for a thread on it.
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.22 11:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Krissam
pretty nice guide, but i'ld like to point out you forgot to mention something.
Some characters start out with Instant Recall IV (IR), which means they can train Eidetic Memory (EM) right away, which would make it worth training a few levels in before you train Analytical Mind (AM).
You are correct.
Those going the Industry-Prospector path have Instant Recall IV from the start. Also those going the Industry-Engineer have Analytical Mind IV from the start. They should use Eidetic Memory and Logic early on.
I'll probably do some math to see when exactly it is best for them to train those and make an addendum.
It should also be noted that if you are not playing the character early on it is generally better to actually start an Industry prospector or engineer eve if it will then become a combat character.
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.22 11:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Viqtoria
the time saved faffing with precise orders will be lost on the numerous times you'll not be able to get to your pc to change a skill after it's finished.
This really depends on each single person.
Note that if you do not manage to change skill training in time, you loose time in any case. You'll still be faster by training them in-order.
Mitigating the "cannot connect" problem (especially for the predictable cases like server downtime) really is subjective and there's no guide that can solve that.
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Ami Nia
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Posted - 2008.08.22 11:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Viqtoria
and you mentioned IQ, if you have IQ it's obvious what the best order is, no need for a thread on it.
It is so obvious that even EveMon does not always figure it out correctly.
And let's not talk of how obvious it is to compute when it's the best moment to train for implants.
Really: there are a lot of people that want to know the best sequence and do not know how to compute it without using pre-made threads or programs. And even more people that know how to do it, but do not want to do the math and prefer to actually use tools or read a post.
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